6

votes

Could lifting weights to failure regularly be problematic for blood lipids due to excessive secretion of HGH?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 07, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Dr Kurt Harris specifically states in his recent "Safe Starch" article that he does not support lifting to failure daily.

"or lifting weights to failure on a daily basis"

And I found this article from Critical MAS - Michael Allen Smith.

Here he discusses how Art De Vany does not recommend training to failure, while Doug McGuff does.

http://criticalmas.com/2011/03/training-failure-training-quit/

http://criticalmas.com/2011/06/training-to-failure-or-training-to-quit-part-2/

Also, the general consensus among bodybuilders is certainly to lift to failure. Very few advocate otherwise. Here is something that really grabbed my interest in a different way than it normally has. Most people already know that high intensity strength training will activate growth hormones to build muscle. I have employed this on my own body and it has worked. However, what if the reason that my body is not more effectively clearing lipids from my blood has to do with lifting to failure? (or, perhaps lifting to failure too often).

This little excerpt from rippednaturally.com represents not much more than "stating the obvious", but if you think about it, what if all that hormone release on a 5x a week basis is really screwing things up for me?

http://www.rippednaturally.com/bodybuilding_lifting_weights_gain_muscle_mass_strength.html

Intensity: Being able to put forth a concentrated effort and work to Complete Failure so as to generate enough muscle stimulus for growth to occur.

Intensity is very important for every workout you do, it is important to push yourself to failure with each set, because this will release more hormones which in turn builds more muscle.

Could switching to a more moderate intensity workout and never going to failure have a positive impact on my blood lipids?

UPDATE: This May 2, 2011 article from Ned Kock that I just found that lends a huge amount of credibility to my question here. Please note that I am not saying this article or all the comments below it necessarily confirm my theory or idea, but at least show a very strong correlation between glycogen-depleting exercise and insulin sensivitiy (which could definitely have profound impacts on blood lipids.) Also to note is the "9 month" estimated window of time for a change in sensitivity to become normalized. I've been doing glycogen-depleting exercise for about a year. That's not too far off from the 9 month window. The only point that makes me hesitant to believe that this is really affecting me much is that my blood glucose tests seem to put me right in the "normal" range. Fully fasted I tested at 86. 2 hours PPr unfasted after some carbs I tested at 92. So I am not really seeing any Type 2 swings or anything.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 12, 2011
at 06:19 AM

I now take mag instead of the calcium blocker and they do the same thing.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 12, 2011
at 06:18 AM

Try taking morning and night on the Mag to get to 400 (in addition to other sources). Yes on the chocolate and caffeine. I took a calcium blocker from the doctor for about 2 weeks. Helped a lot and I found out that Calcium blockers are how docs handle mag deficiencies... . Hopefully you get a chance to read the PDf file I linked to. Amazing stuff...

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Travis - what about what Grace posted here?http://paleohacks.com/questions/75930/got-my-vap-test-results-now-what/76071#76071

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:16 PM

Glucose isn't the problem; starch doesn't increase VLDL production, but it could decrease the oxidation of TGs from VLDL if you are always in the fed state during activity. Even if that's the case, it doesn't explain the underlying issue at all. My money's still on MCTs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:19 PM

Regarding the dark chocolate, I can eliminate that quite easil, but everything I've read says it's very good for the heart. In fact, it's overwhelming how much everyone agrees on that. So I would be removing it specifically for the fact that it has caffeine and is a stimulant?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Regarding fish oil, if I supped that (because I really may not be getting enough O3 from foods)... what is the best and purest brand/choice/option and what dose would be appropriate?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Eric - I have already begun taking 200mg of Mag about 4 days ago. http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Absorption-Magnesium-Bioperine/dp/B000BD0RT0/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1321028009&sr=1-1 but honestly dark chocolate is a very rich source of mag, and I have been eating plenty of that for several months now. I am skeptical that I am actually deficient in Mag because of that, unless I am not absorbing it efficiently from the cocoa. However, even still, I am on 200mg per day.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:12 PM

Travis - No tubers because I was eating a whole of sweet potatoes and white potatoes, and often cooking them in either coconut oil and/or ghee when at home. If my numbers skyrocketed with lots of tubers in the plan then I must conclude that they are certainly not helping and may be harming instead. I know a billion trillion peeps on here do great on tubers. But I just can't help but wonder if the added glucose is causing high VLDL production and high trigs. I hope it turns out to be something else. I LOVE sweet potatoes and even regular potatoes. I'm not down to zero. Just much less.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 08:11 AM

Not much about the chocolate yet. However it is discussed on the forum I pointed you to... ANd it happens to me for sure.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:48 AM

I have added a lot of heart informaton to my answer to your question below.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:46 AM

Added to the answer

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:44 AM

Get forum username and password (same for all users) here: http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm Then use them to access the forum. and as the logon info for the protocol doc here: http://www.afibbers.org/resources/strategy.pdf 29 amazing pages. A must read.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:12 AM

Here is the 12 step plan from the same site. However there is a much more detailed doc I will find for you: http://www.afibbers.org/12stepplan.pdf

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:10 AM

I will look up references for you Jack. Tubers are high in potasium and should be perfect for you. You are likely deficent in Magnesium and starting that is critical. I am likely sensitive to caffeine however the chocolate Is something diffrent perhaps? Here is a link that has an over view of affib (which you may or may not have). Not a lot about chocolate however this site has a forum that you can ask on: http://www.afibbers.org/faq.htm I will continue to look for you.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:01 AM

Good point about the sympathetic Quilt (Can you explain in more detail though?). For JK How i can descibe it is: I can feel it start and instead of staying steel or stopping I just brush it off and it stops right away. Anxiety can trigger it for sure.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 10, 2011
at 10:51 PM

You don't need to be ultra-scientific about essential minerals that you are probably deficient in. Whether or not they affect your lipids is kind of beside the point when they affect 100s of other things. No tubers? Who sold you that one? Do they accept refunds?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 09:46 PM

See this is the problem with continuing to "add hacks" to my agenda. If I cut out all caffeine again, including dark chocolate, beginning right now, it will be yet another change made at the same time frame of making multipel other changes, like added Mg, added Selenium, no Coconut Oil, no tubers (80-90% reduction), no stevia, etc. How am I going to be able to ascertain what changes made the most impact if I make so many at once?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 10, 2011
at 09:33 PM

Excellent point, Eric. Dark chocolate has a pretty good dose of caffeine, so Jack wouldn't have completely cut it out when he removed coffee. If I recall, Eric has the same sensitivity as I do to MSG, aspartame etc. and it makes sense that we'd both be sensitive to caffeine.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 08:52 PM

I have gone without caffeine for 4 weeks when I did a no caffeine August 2011. Saw no change or improvement so I started drinking coffee in the mornings again. I am not aware of any other "stims" in my diet. berger - I saw it for sure, but the comment glitch has been blocking me all day. my email is realfoodlife@gmail.com.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 10, 2011
at 08:49 PM

Terrific, looking forward to your post. By the way, the recent pile-on-Quilt phenomenon got me interested in your blog. Thus far, based on the tenor of your writing I estimate you as probably several degrees less dangerous than Charles Manson. Whether I would say the same if I met you carrying cutlery, not sure. In any case, your vociferous critics deserve kudos for putting your online writings in my sights.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 08:21 PM

Eric - I would love some additional info on this. I eat enough dark chocolate that if that is contributing or even causing my problem, quitting could have a significant impact. Do you have any references or even any additional insight into this? Thanks.

7b91be6e22d4e2960f40935e306bdee5

(245)

on November 10, 2011
at 06:16 PM

I get the same feeling, but usually in the midst of an intense workout. Anxiety makes sense given my history. BTW Jack did you see this? http://paleohacks.com/questions/76176/would-jack-kronk-please-pick-up-the-white-courtesy-phone-closed#axzz1dJqPjpez

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 10, 2011
at 05:02 PM

I have heart issues. One bar of dark chocolate will place my heart into one week of problems. Also coconut. Chocolate is a known trigger for things similar to what you are seeing.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 04:47 PM

removing dark chocolate? I eat dark chocolate on purpose, all the time. All the research I've done shows many benefits to super dark chocolate, and it seems to be a Paleo favorite for many people here. Why would I need to remove this?

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on November 10, 2011
at 01:41 PM

stimulants. Ephedrin, cafeeine. You know.. stimulants!

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 10, 2011
at 06:44 AM

Stims are coffee, etc... Actually a very good idea to remove. And take the magnesium. Dont hold back on it. CQ10 is something to look into as well. For $350.00 you can buy a watch and hack your heart beat... or have the doc hook up a halter monitor. Get 7.5 hours sleep a night. ANd get tested for sleep apenea. SOunds strange but you might have it. Even being fit.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Mark is correct. Dorado I am writing a blog now about what to do after the reset to get to optimal. It will be ready by Nov 16. I have to finish the osteoporosis series first

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Mark is correct. Dorado I am writing a blog now about what to do after the reset to get to optimal. It will be ready by Nov 16. I have to finish the osteoporsis series first

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Travis - what is stims?

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:23 PM

I get it--sounds like you're fine. I was responding to the "every day" part based on reading [Balance In Me](http://balanceinme.com/balanced-body/how-to-avoid-overtraining/) but I can see you are already cycling the intensity.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:51 PM

Let me correct my last post. That's 4 x ten minute interval training session per MONTH, not per week, and 40 miles of walking per Month, not per week. Total hard work ( to failure)90 min per month. My Type A personality would lead me to do more, but my Type A induced chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia/adrenal exhaustion has dragged me to this "Sliver of Exercise Genius or at least Exercise Sanity" kicking and screaming. It's tough to take that foot off the gas pedal, isn't it?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:39 PM

That's a bit weird, but it kind of sounds like anxiety. Have you tried cutting out stims?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:10 PM

Jack, I haven't been following too closely but one thing that did come to mind (especially given the above question) is overtraining. The other thing is if it was associated with increased carbs, maybe it is gas.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:49 PM

very very interesting that you say this... because 3 days ago.. I just changed up my entire routine (on paper... haven't physically started it yet). I switched to 6 routines 3x per week (so 6 routines spread across 2 weeks). This means 2 weeks of rest from each specific rountine and it also means 4 days off every week (off meaning lifting heavy weights). Like I said, I haven't started it yet, but found it interesting that you had good success with a 2 week cycle.

E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Nance, no rest day. i do one muscle group per day, and thats it. 4 years now and im never tired. Anyway no need to worry, 8 hours of sleep? that's more than enough time to "recover". btw, i have all the strength in the world. XD

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:35 PM

One day: was one set of chest, shoulders, tris. Day two: calves seated /standing. Day three :one set leg press. Day four: pulldown, low row ,bis. Day five :dead lift. Plus four ten minutes concept two interval session. Total Paleo training 90 minutes, plus 40 miles of walking.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:27 PM

Sounds terrible I know. Like.. dude go see a Doc! Yes. I know. and I have. I've gotten an EKG. They've taken x-rays. They've taken blood test for kidney function and liver function. They take notes. They send me away saying I need statin drugs and a low fat whole grain diet. Instead of doing that, I login to PaleoHacks and ask what the heck I should do.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:27 PM

But as soon as I settle down, whether it be watchign a movie, taking a nap, or going to bed, or sitting still at the computer, I often get an unsettling feeling in my chest/heart area and the best way I can describe it is (unfortunately) a restriction of blood flow around the heart.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:27 PM

Travis - the feeling in my chest is odd, and coupled with what I believe is some degree of heartburn. I developed heartburn immediately following a change to VLC last year. But the other (and more concerning) feeling I get didn't really begin until I transitioned into more carbs around December of last year. I feel a sort of constriction in my chest area most prominently when fasted and when sedentary. I feel zero constriction after a good workout, like all is well. I usually also feel great just after eating, no matter what I eat.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:27 PM

In August,I stretched my lifting cycle outto two weeks.Five body parts x five minute workouts to failure, twice in a month. Took last three days off! Total gym time 50 minutes for the month. Despite New England pollen season, it was the best results of my life. 50 minutes to exhaustion. Didn't lose "anything". didn't "just"maintain , but made progress at age 57. This was not a beginner's surge, I've been doing this since 1974. Mcguff has it down Doesn't need to be super slow, it can be conventional up and down. An 80% deduction in volume may be worth a try. Good luck

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:07 PM

mark sisson wrote a good article on this a while back. he basically determined that afternoon/evening workouts might be best for most folk.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:06 PM

loilo - also, training to failure using very heavy weight is quite different than training to failure on low level resistance alone. i'm not saying heavy weight training is even paleo. i have been doing this to bulk up muscle and get a killer physique. but i'm just wondering now if it really is a killer physique.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:05 PM

loilo - also, training to failure using very heavy weight is quite different than training to failure on low level resistance alone. i'm not saying heavy weight training is even paleo. i have been doing this to bulk up muscle and get a killer physique. but i'm just wondering now if my it really is a killer physique.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Hope you take some rest days; how are your muscles to get stronger if there's no recovery time?

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Interesting distinction.What do you view as criteria for determining best time of day? I'm guessing it's different strokes, different folks. I find noon-ish to be ideal lately. And that's after being awake and up at 6am, with 8 hours sleep. And I train fasted.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:14 PM

and see for several months in a row, i was repping to failure 5x per week. granted.. different muscle groups, but still, basically asking my body to repair completely worked muscle fibers 5 days per week every week for quite some time.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:14 PM

Again! Im beginning to hate the ipad

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:13 PM

Massage....dlamn spell check

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:13 PM

That feeling in your chest maybe the sympathetic overdrive tied to this. Go get a heart rate variabilty test. Its cheap and an easy screen without a needle to give you insight. If it is up you can practice meditation or use carotid message to make it diminish.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:10 AM

If by drugs, you mean steroids: I definitely was not, and am not, and would never, ever. ("High likelihood of renal failure if you use this product" isn't something I find seductive.) As for Zane, I haven't bothered to research the specifics of his competitive days, but it's reasonable to assume that, back in the day, he would not have passed the blood tests for a Natural Bodybuilding Competition.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:18 AM

"Don't use failure until you've hit a plateau without failure." This line deserved repeating!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:49 PM

Sage - exercise has a big effect on blood lipids. Even the type of exercise matters. If you were in my gym room lifting with me, you'd see that I blast the weights hard. I break down my muscles and repair them. This really does a number on hormone levels and I'm just wondering if whatever formula of diet + workout routine I've concocted is unique enough to possibly cause a unique situation like the one I'm in.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:29 PM

I'm glad someone on drugs was smart enough to good advice to someone I'm assuming was not on drugs.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 10:39 PM

Have you gone into detail somewhere about what exactly this feeling in your chest is? Is it a double beat followed by a pause? If so, copper gluconate and magnesium will probably fix it.

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on November 07, 2011
at 10:19 PM

could someone explain the relationship lifting to failure has with blood lipids?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:07 PM

Well. We can tick a couple more things off the list. I got my Selenium and just started taking it. I get the chelated Mg tomorrow and I think I'm gonna take a 1/2 dose because I get Mg from several sources, incl dark chocolate. Also, I haven't had a drop of coconut oil for about 2 weeks and have virtually eliminated stevia for almost 3 weeks now. (I did have a tiny amount in coffee twice). I don't know if these things will help, but at least it's something. However, disappointingly, so far none of these changes have helped much with the bad feeling in my chest, which I continue to experience.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Honestly, I think this is a stretch, Jack. There are so many things to tick off the list before this.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:36 PM

I could be wrong, but I don't think Dr. Harris has a problem with the failure part but with the daily part. I think at one point he said that he likes or follows Doug McGuff's approach to training.

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7 Answers

4
Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

on November 07, 2011
at 08:43 PM

Failure is, like everything, a useful tool.

Those knowledgeable about bodybuilding will tell you failure is not necessary, nor is it sufficient. It is a useful tool.

For naturals, training to failure is a good way to burn yourself out most of the time. Most people don't use proper programming to begin with, and training to failure in a stupid way is a good way to over train.

That being said, if you control volume and frequency you can accept the increase in intensity from training to failure.

My advice: Don't use failure until you've hit a plateau without failure. Then, judicious use can take you over the top to a new level of fitness.

For a good program that allows you to go crazy with intensity, see Dante's Doggcrap training.

And the increase in HGH from training to failure is not really on the same scale as a pharmaceutical intervention. Also, it is transient and wouldn't explain a chronic elevation.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:18 AM

"Don't use failure until you've hit a plateau without failure." This line deserved repeating!

3
Medium avatar

on November 07, 2011
at 10:37 PM

Short, sustained bursts of anaerobic activity (with weights and running or other cardio) will likely help boost endogenous GH levels, along with proper nutrition and rest (sleep).

As for "training to failure," one of the most interesting perspectives I've encountered is that of Frank Zane, three time Mr Olympia. When I got serious about weight training several years ago, I hired Frank to help me put together a program. This included working out for a couple of days at his home gym, near San Diego. At one point I mentioned "training to failure," to which he said, "Don't do that." I responded: "Don't train to failure?" He smiled and said, "Don't use the word failure when you're talking about a challenging workout. The subconscious mind is extremely powerful. Does the word failure have positive connotations in any other part of your life? Train for success, which includes training hard."

I asked him later whether his objection was chiefly linguistic. "Don't train all-out as often as you might think you should, or as often as some supposed expert says to," he said. "It's not necessary hit that marker all the time. But when you're rested and your goal is to go so hard that you can't get another repetition, don't call it failure."

For some reason recalling this brings to mind a favorite Rilke passage:

"Winning does not tempt that man. This is how he grows: by being defeated, decisively by constantly greater beings."

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:10 AM

If by drugs, you mean steroids: I definitely was not, and am not, and would never, ever. ("High likelihood of renal failure if you use this product" isn't something I find seductive.) As for Zane, I haven't bothered to research the specifics of his competitive days, but it's reasonable to assume that, back in the day, he would not have passed the blood tests for a Natural Bodybuilding Competition.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:29 PM

I'm glad someone on drugs was smart enough to good advice to someone I'm assuming was not on drugs.

2
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 10, 2011
at 06:54 AM

I think you are on to something. I think my sprinting to failure workouts do this.

ALso with regards to the heart.

Stims are coffee, etc... Actually a very good idea to remove. And take the magnesium. Dont hold back on it. CQ10 is something to look into as well. For $350.00 you can buy a watch and hack your heart beat... or have the doc hook up a halter monitor. Get 7.5 hours sleep a night. And get tested for sleep apenea. Sounds strange but you might have it. Even being fit.

The only thing that helps me is removing chocolate. In particular dark chocolate.

EDIT (More resources):

Get forum username and password (same for all users) here:afibbers.org/toboards.htm Then use them to access the forum. and as the logon info for the protocol doc here:afibbers.org/resources/strategy.pdf29 amazing pages. A must read

ALSO SEE:

http://www.afibbers.com/atrial_fibrillation/prevention_general/F87g.htm

http://www.afibbers.org/arrhythmias.html

Adrenaline secretion in panic attacks MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA. A connection between abnormalities in the sympathetic nervous system and panic attacks has long been suspected. As early as 1871 "irritable heart", a condition very similar to panic attacks, was attributed to hypersensitivity of the "cardiac nerve centers". Now a team of Australian researchers confirms that the secretion of epinephrine (adrenaline) does indeed increase dramatically during panic attacks (by an average 153 per cent) and may be accompanied by rapid heart beat and atrial fibrillation. The researchers performed a carefully controlled study of 13 patients with panic disorder and 14 healthy controls. They found no difference in sympathetic nervous activity among patients and controls when at rest. They did observe that epinephrine was released from the heart in panic disorder patients during rest. They speculate that this release is a result of the heart's uptake of large amounts of epinephrine during panic attacks. The researchers also found that the heart rate and systolic blood pressure increased significantly in both patients and controls when exposed to simulated mental stress (rapidly subtracting 1- digit numbers from a 3-digit number for 10 minutes). They conclude that there may be a selective increase in cardiac sympathetic activity during panic attacks and that release of epinephrine from the sympathetic nerves of the heart could trigger cardiac arrhythmias.

Dr. George Heninger, MD of Yale University School of Medicine concludes in an accompanying commentary that panic attacks originate in the brain and that the excessive epinephrine discharge is a secondary effect. He suggests that abnormalities in the body's GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) system could be the main trigger for panic attacks. Wilkinson, Dominic J.C., et al. Sympathetic activity in patients with panic disorder at rest, under laboratory mental stress, and during panic attacks. Archives of General Psychiatry, Vol. 55, June 1998, pp. 511- 20 Heninger, George R. Catecholamines and pathogenesis of panic disorder. Archives of General Psychiatry, Vol. 55, June 1998, pp. 522-23 (commentary)

Niacin effective in the treatment of atrial fibrillation VICTORIA, CANADA. Dr. Abram Hoffer, a world-renowned psychiatrist in Victoria, reports on the successful treatment of six patients with atrial fibrillation. One 76 year old physician who suffered from atrial fibrillation was completely cured after starting a vitamin supplementation program which included megadoses of niacin and folic acid. Other patients report complete disappearance of their irregular heart beat symptoms after supplementing with high doses of niacin, folic acid, and vitamin B-12. Dr. Hoffer believes that one of the main causes of atrial fibrillation is excessive stress. High levels of stress release large amounts of adrenalin which in turn is oxidized to adrenochrome. Adrenochrome is known to cause fibrillation and other cardiac dysfunctions. Adrenochrome is a natural free radical and is primarily produced in the heart tissue, but circulates in the blood throughout the body. It can cross the blood-brain barrier and excessive amounts of it are believed to be a main cause of schizophrenia. Antioxidants protect against the formation of excessive amounts of adrenochrome and schizophrenics have been successfully treated with large amounts of niacin and ascorbic acid. Penicillamine has also been successfully used in the treatment of schizophrenia. Dr. Hoffer points out that adrenochrome is not all bad. He believes that the leucocytes use adrenochrome to destroy abnormal cells like cancer cells and that we therefore need a certain amount of adrenochrome in order to control cancer. The fact that schizophrenics rarely develop cancer supports this hypothesis. Dr. Hoffer concludes that we need a certain amount of stress in order to produce enough adrenochrome to enable our leucocytes to kill bacteria and tumor cells. However, we also need an adequate supply of natural antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and beta-carotene in order to neutralize an excess of adrenochrome after its work is done. (51 references) Hoffer, A. Schizophrenia: an evolutionary defence against severe stress. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, Vol. 9, No. 4, Fourth Quarter, 1994, pp. 205-21

Magnesium helps control afib Canadian researchers have done a meta-analysis of studies dealing with the benefits of intravenous administration of magnesium in the acute treatment of atrial fibrillation. They found that effective rate control (reduction in heart rate to below 100 bpm) and/or conversion to normal sinus rhythm was achieved in 84% of patients given magnesium as compared to 53% given a placebo. Seven trials used calcium channel blockers or placebo as controls. In these trials 69% of patients in the magnesium group experienced relief as compared to 53% in the control group. The researchers conclude that intravenous magnesium is an effective and safe strategy for the acute treatment of afib. PACE, Vol. 29, April 2006, Suppl 1, Abstract #36, p. S19 (European Cardiac Arrhythmia Society, 2nd Annual Congress)

Fish oil prevents atrial fibrillation KUOPIO, FINLAND. The three most important components of fish oil are eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA). Extensive research has established that EPA and DHA play a vital role in the prevention of Alzheimer???s disease, atherosclerosis, heart attack, angina, stroke, congestive heart failure, depression and cancer. Clinical trials have also shown that fish oil supplementation is effective in the treatment of many disorders including high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, ulcerative colitis and Raynaud???s disease.

Now Finnish researchers report that high serum levels of EPA, DHA and DPA are associated with a significantly reduced risk of developing atrial fibrillation (AF). Their study included 2174 men enrolled in the Kuopio Ischemic Heart Disease Risk Factor Study begun in 1984-1989. The men were 42, 48, 54 or 60 years of age at the baseline examination. During 17.7 years of follow-up, 11% of the participants were found to have AF upon admission to hospital (for arrhythmia or other reasons). This corresponds to an incidence rate of 0.6% a year. NOTE: Considering that the study only included men admitted to hospital, it is clear that the population-wide incidence would be significantly higher than 0.6% a year.

At baseline, the mean percentages of EPA, DPA and DHA in serum fatty acids were 1.67%, 0.55% and 2.46% respectively. After adjustment for age and other possible confounders the researchers observed that men in the highest quartile of EPA+DPA+DHA concentration (5.3 ??? 15.6%) had a 35% reduced risk of developing AF when compared to men in the lowest quartile (1.7 ??? 3.6%). The absolute risk in the lowest quartile group was 13.4% vs 8.7% in the highest quartile group. Further analysis revealed that DHA accounted for the entire risk reduction and that EPA and DPA levels were not associated with risk of developing AF.

Considering only lone afibbers (no heart disease prior to diagnosis of AF) strengthened the association between serum fatty acid concentration of DHA and AF risk. Men in the lowest quartile had a risk of 10.9%, while those in the highest quartile had a risk of only 5.6% ??? a relative risk reduction of 49%.

The mean serum fatty acid concentration of alpha-linolenic acid (found in flaxseed and other vegetable oils) was 0.74% and was not related to the risk of developing AF. A hair analysis revealed no correlation between methylmercury level (methylmercury is an increasingly common contaminant of fish) and risk of AF, nor did a high methylmercury level attenuate the beneficial effects of DHA. There was also no evidence that age, hypertension, systolic blood pressure or a history of ischemic heart disease modified the association between DHA level and AF risk. Virtanen, JK, et al. Serum long-chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and risk of hospital diagnosis of atrial fibrillation in men. Circulation, Vol. 120, December 8, 2009, pp. 2315-21

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 10, 2011
at 05:02 PM

I have heart issues. One bar of dark chocolate will place my heart into one week of problems. Also coconut. Chocolate is a known trigger for things similar to what you are seeing.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 04:47 PM

removing dark chocolate? I eat dark chocolate on purpose, all the time. All the research I've done shows many benefits to super dark chocolate, and it seems to be a Paleo favorite for many people here. Why would I need to remove this?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 10, 2011
at 10:51 PM

You don't need to be ultra-scientific about essential minerals that you are probably deficient in. Whether or not they affect your lipids is kind of beside the point when they affect 100s of other things. No tubers? Who sold you that one? Do they accept refunds?

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:10 AM

I will look up references for you Jack. Tubers are high in potasium and should be perfect for you. You are likely deficent in Magnesium and starting that is critical. I am likely sensitive to caffeine however the chocolate Is something diffrent perhaps? Here is a link that has an over view of affib (which you may or may not have). Not a lot about chocolate however this site has a forum that you can ask on: http://www.afibbers.org/faq.htm I will continue to look for you.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 09:46 PM

See this is the problem with continuing to "add hacks" to my agenda. If I cut out all caffeine again, including dark chocolate, beginning right now, it will be yet another change made at the same time frame of making multipel other changes, like added Mg, added Selenium, no Coconut Oil, no tubers (80-90% reduction), no stevia, etc. How am I going to be able to ascertain what changes made the most impact if I make so many at once?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Travis - what about what Grace posted here?http://paleohacks.com/questions/75930/got-my-vap-test-results-now-what/76071#76071

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 10, 2011
at 08:21 PM

Eric - I would love some additional info on this. I eat enough dark chocolate that if that is contributing or even causing my problem, quitting could have a significant impact. Do you have any references or even any additional insight into this? Thanks.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 10, 2011
at 09:33 PM

Excellent point, Eric. Dark chocolate has a pretty good dose of caffeine, so Jack wouldn't have completely cut it out when he removed coffee. If I recall, Eric has the same sensitivity as I do to MSG, aspartame etc. and it makes sense that we'd both be sensitive to caffeine.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:12 PM

Travis - No tubers because I was eating a whole of sweet potatoes and white potatoes, and often cooking them in either coconut oil and/or ghee when at home. If my numbers skyrocketed with lots of tubers in the plan then I must conclude that they are certainly not helping and may be harming instead. I know a billion trillion peeps on here do great on tubers. But I just can't help but wonder if the added glucose is causing high VLDL production and high trigs. I hope it turns out to be something else. I LOVE sweet potatoes and even regular potatoes. I'm not down to zero. Just much less.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Eric - I have already begun taking 200mg of Mag about 4 days ago. http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Absorption-Magnesium-Bioperine/dp/B000BD0RT0/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1321028009&sr=1-1 but honestly dark chocolate is a very rich source of mag, and I have been eating plenty of that for several months now. I am skeptical that I am actually deficient in Mag because of that, unless I am not absorbing it efficiently from the cocoa. However, even still, I am on 200mg per day.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:16 PM

Glucose isn't the problem; starch doesn't increase VLDL production, but it could decrease the oxidation of TGs from VLDL if you are always in the fed state during activity. Even if that's the case, it doesn't explain the underlying issue at all. My money's still on MCTs.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:44 AM

Get forum username and password (same for all users) here: http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm Then use them to access the forum. and as the logon info for the protocol doc here: http://www.afibbers.org/resources/strategy.pdf 29 amazing pages. A must read.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 12, 2011
at 06:18 AM

Try taking morning and night on the Mag to get to 400 (in addition to other sources). Yes on the chocolate and caffeine. I took a calcium blocker from the doctor for about 2 weeks. Helped a lot and I found out that Calcium blockers are how docs handle mag deficiencies... . Hopefully you get a chance to read the PDf file I linked to. Amazing stuff...

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 08:11 AM

Not much about the chocolate yet. However it is discussed on the forum I pointed you to... ANd it happens to me for sure.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Regarding fish oil, if I supped that (because I really may not be getting enough O3 from foods)... what is the best and purest brand/choice/option and what dose would be appropriate?

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:46 AM

Added to the answer

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:12 AM

Here is the 12 step plan from the same site. However there is a much more detailed doc I will find for you: http://www.afibbers.org/12stepplan.pdf

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:19 PM

Regarding the dark chocolate, I can eliminate that quite easil, but everything I've read says it's very good for the heart. In fact, it's overwhelming how much everyone agrees on that. So I would be removing it specifically for the fact that it has caffeine and is a stimulant?

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 12, 2011
at 06:19 AM

I now take mag instead of the calcium blocker and they do the same thing.

2
499f188c87c6980742b9ba98caa6f563

(683)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:40 AM

McGuff and Little's BBS protocol is that you should work out to failure once a week at most. As Little says over and over in his articles on the BBS website, "spend more days above baseline than below". No way can you do this by training to failure 5 days a week.

I repeat, once a week at most. They have no problem with stretching that out to 10 days or 2 weeks if your condition warrants it.

Many people reporting their workouts on the BBS blog actually split their routines so they only do 3 of the Big 5 exercises, once a week or even longer.

After 2 years on the BBS protocol, the Big 5 set done once a week became too much for me and I stopped making progress, felt burned out excessively, etc. Now I only do 2 of the exercises every 5-7 days or so, in the Max Pyramid protocol. Of course I'm not aiming for muscle hypertrophy, just slowly increasing strength and "metabolic headroom" as they call it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:14 PM

and see for several months in a row, i was repping to failure 5x per week. granted.. different muscle groups, but still, basically asking my body to repair completely worked muscle fibers 5 days per week every week for quite some time.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:51 PM

Let me correct my last post. That's 4 x ten minute interval training session per MONTH, not per week, and 40 miles of walking per Month, not per week. Total hard work ( to failure)90 min per month. My Type A personality would lead me to do more, but my Type A induced chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia/adrenal exhaustion has dragged me to this "Sliver of Exercise Genius or at least Exercise Sanity" kicking and screaming. It's tough to take that foot off the gas pedal, isn't it?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:49 PM

very very interesting that you say this... because 3 days ago.. I just changed up my entire routine (on paper... haven't physically started it yet). I switched to 6 routines 3x per week (so 6 routines spread across 2 weeks). This means 2 weeks of rest from each specific rountine and it also means 4 days off every week (off meaning lifting heavy weights). Like I said, I haven't started it yet, but found it interesting that you had good success with a 2 week cycle.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:27 PM

In August,I stretched my lifting cycle outto two weeks.Five body parts x five minute workouts to failure, twice in a month. Took last three days off! Total gym time 50 minutes for the month. Despite New England pollen season, it was the best results of my life. 50 minutes to exhaustion. Didn't lose "anything". didn't "just"maintain , but made progress at age 57. This was not a beginner's surge, I've been doing this since 1974. Mcguff has it down Doesn't need to be super slow, it can be conventional up and down. An 80% deduction in volume may be worth a try. Good luck

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:35 PM

One day: was one set of chest, shoulders, tris. Day two: calves seated /standing. Day three :one set leg press. Day four: pulldown, low row ,bis. Day five :dead lift. Plus four ten minutes concept two interval session. Total Paleo training 90 minutes, plus 40 miles of walking.

0
E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:56 PM

ajam. I train every day for at least 45 minutes ** always to failure**. But then again: i don't lift weights, nor use fancy machinery (or drugs) Just the floor under my feet and my own body weight. How paleo is that?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:05 PM

loilo - also, training to failure using very heavy weight is quite different than training to failure on low level resistance alone. i'm not saying heavy weight training is even paleo. i have been doing this to bulk up muscle and get a killer physique. but i'm just wondering now if my it really is a killer physique.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:06 PM

loilo - also, training to failure using very heavy weight is quite different than training to failure on low level resistance alone. i'm not saying heavy weight training is even paleo. i have been doing this to bulk up muscle and get a killer physique. but i'm just wondering now if it really is a killer physique.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:23 PM

I get it--sounds like you're fine. I was responding to the "every day" part based on reading [Balance In Me](http://balanceinme.com/balanced-body/how-to-avoid-overtraining/) but I can see you are already cycling the intensity.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Hope you take some rest days; how are your muscles to get stronger if there's no recovery time?

E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Nance, no rest day. i do one muscle group per day, and thats it. 4 years now and im never tired. Anyway no need to worry, 8 hours of sleep? that's more than enough time to "recover". btw, i have all the strength in the world. XD

0
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:15 PM

I think timing of lifting needs to be yoked to time of day its most beneficial. Most body builders and weight lifters seem clueless about timing of work outs

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Mark is correct. Dorado I am writing a blog now about what to do after the reset to get to optimal. It will be ready by Nov 16. I have to finish the osteoporosis series first

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Mark is correct. Dorado I am writing a blog now about what to do after the reset to get to optimal. It will be ready by Nov 16. I have to finish the osteoporsis series first

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Interesting distinction.What do you view as criteria for determining best time of day? I'm guessing it's different strokes, different folks. I find noon-ish to be ideal lately. And that's after being awake and up at 6am, with 8 hours sleep. And I train fasted.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:07 PM

mark sisson wrote a good article on this a while back. he basically determined that afternoon/evening workouts might be best for most folk.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 10, 2011
at 08:49 PM

Terrific, looking forward to your post. By the way, the recent pile-on-Quilt phenomenon got me interested in your blog. Thus far, based on the tenor of your writing I estimate you as probably several degrees less dangerous than Charles Manson. Whether I would say the same if I met you carrying cutlery, not sure. In any case, your vociferous critics deserve kudos for putting your online writings in my sights.

0
368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5

(182)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:53 PM

I stopped training to failure on a regular basis awhile back. Not because of hormones but because I felt like I was "overtraining", burning myself out, what have you. I still will push myself to failure occasionally, but my routine these days is more of a Smolov/Smolov Jr type routine where the reps are set and the weight based off a % of my 1RM.

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