7

votes

Would this woman have the same trouble maintaining if she was Paleo?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 31, 2011 at 2:03 PM

I am very happy that today marks 30 days of my paleo challenge and I'm not going anywhere! This is too easy, too helpful and too flexible to be anything but a lifestyle (not a diet). I feel like this is a way of eating that I can do for the rest of my life and that the 80/20 rule means that I can still enjoy (if I choose) the social/cultural eating that is part of real life in a family and community. You know, like eating cinnamon rolls Christmas morning or having an occasional slice of birthday cake.

That said, I AM interested in weightloss because I have a lot to lose. I am interested in getting to my body's setpoint, which is a weight I don't know yet. But one of the things that scared me from even thinking about weightloss is the idea that one has to be perpetually on a diet. Enter this blog post:

http://justmaintaining.com/2010/09/30/weight-loss-maintenance-the-job-description/

I do NOT want to micromanage my life the way this woman does; she sounds pretty miserable.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on that blog post? I'm especially interested in hearing from those of you, like the fabulous and always helpful @sherpamelissa and @Stephen-Aegis and @luckybastard and anyone else who has lost weight and maintained that loss.

Finally I want to thank you all for this AMAZING resource -- the expertise, intelligence and diversity of experiences is making my journey SO MUCH easier and I really appreciate it!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:56 AM

(con't) in which there is a horrible lack of real, accurate knowlege in this area! We are actually the extreme outliers, the total weirdos who have somehow figured out what works for each of us individually.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:55 AM

@LLoon: I hear you, although I think that identifying why we get fat and a menu of the best ways to lose is important. But the real hidden giant in all of this is the maintenance piece and the fact that even among those trained in the medical professions and allied health professions such as dieticians, nurses, etc., there is an abysmal and really total lack of the knowlege that *does8 eist re: maintenance. Thus, those of us who *do* make it and maintain really need to support each other as well as hold our ground firmly because we have essentially eeked out paths that DO work in a world

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 08:00 PM

Rose, it is interesting that in the paleo world and in the civilized world, there is still no shortage of clubs. Patrick, I'm not going to down-vote you either, because you are already in negative territory.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Thank you for speaking up Melissa, Mem. That is one of the most destructive memes of the Paleo world. And the continuation of such talk will keep the paleo thing firmly in the faddish cult category. For some, it really has become, "My omega6/3 ratio can beat up your honor student."

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:52 PM

This is why Guyenet and Taubes, while they may either be right or wrong with their theories, are really dealing with the wrong thing. Who cares why we get fat or how we get thin? Hardly anyone is looking at why we can't maintain. No matter what diet she follows, the writer deserves to be a bit pessimistic.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:49 PM

But my experience is that fat people also stall out on Paleo, or never even lose at all. Despite its flaws, you can see the same pattern in the POUNDS LOST study after 2 years on a low carb diet. Lots of people go directly from weight loss back to weight gain. There is no stability.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Most people use that 95-97 percent failure rate as proof that the low-fat diet method doesn't work. And then, in addition, some higher-carb paleo "hot-shots" who think that they have earned the right to speak for all say that this failure rate proves that the Atkins diet and other low-carb diets are also sub-optimal.

6229cd9a7ca9882590259fae022e2647

(3209)

on September 03, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Yes you are right. I guess the difference though is at this point I am fully on board with the right food and it doesn't feel like a punishment. I think my body is one of those that wants to be fat. As long as I watch the numbers on the scale, I should be ok. My body stayed in this 210 - 220 range for a few years before I went down to 180. In the past I've also led a rather sedentary life. That has also changed. I feel pretty good about being in that 3% range. I think the 97% that have failed did fail because they did the low fat crap diet that is pushed by CW.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on September 03, 2011
at 03:27 PM

Thank you so much for coming by Debra. I have been very much helped by the conversation here (especially sherpamelissa's comments) even though it's maybe not what I wanted to hear (that maintenance is WORK) but I think I needed to know that or I'd be setting myself up for failure.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:50 AM

Thank you , Melissa. Beautiful post.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:46 AM

(con't) continuation of everything we did to lose, with *ongoing* adjustments. THERE IS NOT ARRIVAL. And every year for us, the biological push to regain - the push towad setpoint will infact, be stronger. Are there things we can do about this that may ameliorate this a little or even alot? Yes, but they are not endpoints, they are *ongoing actions* every day of our lives. (Thanks for being patient with my rant.)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:42 AM

(con't) and see that Debra, whose blog I read, had responded herself, along with other excellent responses.As I said in another response, I know i don't have the answers for all others at all. But I also now that as radical maintainers (and at least 4 of us have written here) we are in a very rare "club." Being in the 3% club tells me something, since 97% of losers DO NOT maintain and not only gain it all back, but gain more. Something we are doing must be very right. And however it is done, the key, IMHO, which is what Debra's blog is all about, is that essentially, maintenance is simply a

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:37 AM

I so appreciate your response, Rose. I had been pointed to this PH question by Melissa, and to be totally honest, over two days, i have tried to "get it together" to answer it. But, I've just had this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I'm a little over the top lately with all of the absolutism and THE RIGHT WAY and the absolute, angry eschewing in some cases of what solid research tells us about us formerly obese, expecially radical losers, coupled with "you'd be fixed if you only did it this way." BLAH. I just hit a real wall with it in the last few days. So, I was glad to come here

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:31 AM

Yes, The Loon, it is a real understatement to say that "many" people do have trouble with maintenance. The numbers are: 95 -97% GAIN IT ALL BACK AND MORE. This is the very essence of Debra's blog - the myth of "maintenace" as it exists in the cultural mind/mythology. Maintenance? WHAT maintenance is the appropriate question.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:28 AM

(con't) more ppl get it, we radical maintainers will remain in "The 3% club" just as all other weight losers will remain in "The 5% club." (That is, all other weight losers, of any quantity of weight, who MAINTAIN the loss..a mere 5%.)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:26 AM

Shari: Agreed. I was actually hopeful that ebra would get wind of this question and weigh in on it. I love her blog. She speaks the truth of radical maintainers and the truth that is virtually nowhere to be found in medical and other diet counseling. I feel the Canadians, as in Sharma and Freedhoff are waaaaay ahead of us in this area. Sharma's blog upsets people just like some were upset at what they read in Debra's blog. I posted two Sharma links re: changed metabolism in the formerly obese/morbidly obese and his take on radical maintenance and ppl totally freaked out. Too bad. until lots

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:21 AM

The is in NO way a criticsm, but rather a statement of scientific evidence as well as the well documented evidence re: ALL losers. Of radical losers, such as yourself, only about 3% are able to maintain. Of ALL other losers, about 5%. I love Debra's blog (have been a reader) because she writes the truth that nobody wants to hear, and that is conspicuously absent in medical and other "diet counseling."

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:14 AM

Yes, your body over the last year has pushed you up about 37 lbs back toward setpoint. (I think I read in another post of yours that your weight at this time is about 217.) So, you have lost a very significant amount, but like the vast majority of radical losers (97% to be exact) you are gaining significantly as well since your 1 year ago initial low of 180. This is standard and is the heart of the issue of the OP's inquiry. Research tells us that every year there will be more of a push, which is why radical weightloss takes radical maintenance.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 02, 2011
at 07:05 PM

Patrick. I'm not going to down vote you but...Oye. Hope you hang around here long enough to know that some of us do have to restrict both carbs and calories and we've pretty much all read Taubes (and many of us agree with most of what he has to say) You just can't make sweeping statements like that.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 02, 2011
at 07:03 PM

Kick ass. Take names. Well done. (Except for #3 which I couldn't disagree with you more on but you're certainly not the first around here to be Taubes-hating.)

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on September 02, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Hi Debra! Welcome to paleohacks! Thanks also for your considered opinion that obviously has a wealth of experience backing it up. I too am maintaining, 60lb going on 4 years now. One thing I can bring to the table is to constantly evolve and critically re-evaluate 'is this working for me?' because otherwise you end up stuck down dead ends. Also to emphasise non-diet contributors to weight gain, or rather contributors to poor choices like stress and sleep. It's tough at times but I find it ultimately enjoyable.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on September 02, 2011
at 06:47 PM

Bravo Debra! I love your reply. Especially #4. I'm sad to have just found your blog when you are moving on to new pursuits. It's impressive to have maintained your loss for so long! I'm at 2 years maintenance after 5 years losing and I truly appreciate the work that needs to go into it. <3

0e2772604bdb3627525b42d77340538b

(953)

on September 02, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Well, I got down to where I wanted to about six months ago - and lost 5 more since.

6229cd9a7ca9882590259fae022e2647

(3209)

on September 01, 2011
at 07:07 PM

I have maintained most of it for 8 yrs or so. I've been as low as 180 (about a yr ago) from 320, but my body seems to love the 210ish range. My 12 yr old daughter is my height and weighs 200lbs, but she looks fantastic even in a bikini. She is very athletic and is very active. So maybe I am where my 32 yr old body wants to be.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 01, 2011
at 03:00 AM

AuH20girl: When did you hit goal weight?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 01, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Oh those were the days. Not going to happen around here anymore either, for both the guys and the gals.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 01, 2011
at 01:15 AM

Which is ironic, considering that the whole calories-in, calories-out model was used as a club to beat people with in a similar way. ("If you're still fat, you're still eating too many calories -- control yourself!") It seems to me that whichever model is correct in the case of obesity, the real problem is with the people who judge others -- obviously, this is some kind of persistent human trait.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 31, 2011
at 11:00 PM

vdh: How long have you maintained your 100lb weightloss?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 31, 2011
at 10:55 PM

This is great in theory however it's a real downer for those for whom it does not work. This kind of dogma has the underlying implication that you are personally at fault if it does not work out for you.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 31, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Haha "rainbows and unicorns". Good answer.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 08:35 PM

Thank you for this reminder, Rose, that we are all of us different. It helped hearing Melissa say not to be afraid of maintenance. I really need to keep this one day at a time because then it feels a lot more manageable!

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 08:33 PM

I'm not reading that series but clearly I need to. Thank you so much for the recommendation!

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Right, it's not that you don't ever use willpower, but IMO, if you need to use it chronically (i.e., all the time), loss and/or maintenance are going to be hard to sustain. Or as Yoni Freedhoff says, it helps to live the life you love, not the one you tolerate.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 07:15 PM

Well, I'd be lost without my willpower. It's pretty much all that keeps me from diving into my daughter's chocolate stash. I understand the concept though.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 07:01 PM

Thanks Melissa! Yes, my weight loss has been slow too. I'm not sure it's that it's helping the brain as much as it implies not overriding the brain's desire for food, i.e., white-knuckling! J Stanton said in part 4 of his series: "Restrained eating requires the exercise of willpower to override likes, wants, and the lack of satiation or satiety; the exercise of willpower uses energy and causes stress; and stress makes you eat more. Therefore, a successful diet must minimize the role of willpower." Makes sense to me ;).

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Why thank you, Rose! I try really, really hard to see all sides of the picture. Honestly, that's what got me posting on PH to start with. All the people saying "THIS WAY IS RIGHT. IF YOU DON'T DO PALEO ~MY WAY~ YOU AREN'T PALEO ENOUGH" was driving me crazy and I had to jump in. I always appreciate that you understand Zero Carb isn't for everyone, but present your points of view. I have learned a lot from you

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Why thank you, Rose! I try really, really hard to see all sides of the picture. Honestly, that's why got me posting on PH to start with. All the people saying "THIS WAY IS RIGHT. IF YOU DON'T DO PALEO ~MY WAY~ YOU AREN'T PALEO ENOUGH" was driving me crazy and I had to jump in. I always appreciate that you understand Zero Carb isn't for everyone, but present your points of view. I have learned a lot from you!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:57 PM

That's absolutely awesome, Beth! You are right that maintenance should not be much different. That's a very important realization that I don't think many people attempting to lose weight come to. It took me 5 years to lose, but I think going slow helped my brain deal with the new me.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:56 PM

I have read GCBC, Patrick. Thank you. Unfortunately, my metabolism has not. I tried raising calories with limiting carbs. Feel free to check out my food log anytime, the link is in my profile. I wish I didn't have to restrict my calories. I really, really, really do.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:42 PM

in the big picture, calories are important. we are fatter because we do eat more collectively. however, on a practical level, getting your leptin/insulin sensitivity and inflammation down goes a long way to telling your brain to eat less without consciously doing so.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:14 PM

Melissa, I almost named you specifically as an exception to the "everyone says do what I do" observation -- you're always so balanced and sane, and I really appreciate your comments on PH. And I continue to be fascinated by people's varying responses to macronutrient ratio tinkering, calories, exercise -- the whole package. In theory we're all the same species, but in practice you gotta wonder sometimes, lol.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 05:05 PM

I agree re the counting calories part (though I don't think GCBC has it exactly right). But I do think exercise is important -- not to burn calories, but to actually affect the overall system. I'm totally with Mark Sisson that chronic cardio is not ideal, but that lifting heavy things and sprinting are both helpful from an evolutionary standpoint.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:55 PM

Yay Rose! Maintenance is a topic close to my heart and I'm glad you replied! Thanks for pointing out specifically what was aggravating me "If she did what I do, she wouldn't have to work this hard." because it's just not true. It's a possibility, but no one knows for sure what will work for other people. I think about how you eat often (ZC) and if maybe that would make things less hard for me. (Is it meat? LOVE IT) I'm just not willing to try it yet because going too low carb has caused me mood issues. (I know the opposite is true for you.) I may still try it some day.

Fbfeabf01eb1ee04cca22d44edc1275e

(10)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:45 PM

+1 for saying Paleo is a Lifestyle not a diet, or religion or cult, etc ;)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Aww, thanks tovesworld! That means a lot to me. <3

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:49 PM

I like the bank account analogy! I spent the past year eating whatever I wanted ON PURPOSE because I never got to do that and I needed to learn what I wanted and what happened when I ate too much. That set me up to limit myself and see it as choice, not punishment. Getting to say YES to chocolate anytime I wanted it this year has helped me see that I don't always want it as much as I THINK I do and as much as seeing it as "bad" set me up to think that way. Now I'm understanding that food is morally neutral (the way we produce it may not be) and that I have CHOICES to fuel my body & my spirit.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:47 PM

I like to hear a diversity of opinions, too, which is why I called a couple of you out specifically. I feel like you have experiences that are different but equally illuminating and that's really to the benfit of the whole community. (I mean, as a woman @sherpamelissa's experience may resonate more with me but that doesn't mean a man couldn't happen upon this thread and really need to hear what @luckybastard has to say!!)

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:45 PM

Yeah, I'm never going to get to have donut Sundays willy-nilly again but then I don't think that's good for ANYONE fat or not!

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:45 PM

I have to remember, too, that she is writing this post specifically to share the "lose weight, have a new life" mindset and I do appreciate that since we don't talk about the After much once the picture is snapped.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:44 PM

Oh one more thing -- I really appreciate the encouragement re., maintenance! I very much value your voice here, @sherpamelissa! Your generosity and willingness to share your experience is wonderful!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:43 PM

I think it's absolutely awesome that you are thinking about maintenance now. Otherwise, I think it can come as a total shock to many people when they get to their goal weight. A lot of success in maintenance comes down to attitude.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:41 PM

Well, I have days like that. I have days it's really UNFAIR that my body sucks and I have to work so hard to maintain. Then I have days that I just love my new body and I'm so proud of myself for getting here. I think we caught her on a day she was feeling a bit off about it all. Finding exercise that you love can be a challenge, so can finding time to do it. There are so many options out there though, you just have to try them all out!

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:40 PM

@loon i honestly feel for women because i really do think they have a lot of confounding factors in their weight loss journeys than men. also, their are estrogenic men who have similar problems.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I love the food that I eat and the exercise I do. I don't consider maintenance a punishment. I am aware of the gift I have given myself and embrace it. Sadly, that isn't enough to convince my metabolism that I can eat unweighed/unmeasured.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I know that I can't go back to how I was eating before but it's the unhappiness of her story (her whole blog is very good) including exercise that she does not even like. that's the part that gets to me really.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:36 PM

I'm female and I'm not sure how much I have to lose but I'd say at least fifty pounds.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:35 PM

Luckybastard, you are living up to your name, and are from now on banned from telling us how mindless it is for you lol! I think it is somewhere in the Quilt where he says that balancing men's hormones is a cinch. (BTW, I didn't downvote, can't read that fast.)

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:31 PM

Thank you Shari!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:15 PM

+1 for The Loon. I completely agree.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:04 PM

*SHRUGS* oh well. i like hearing diversity of opinion.

020053fd576e93d1d8fa20bfb10979b9

(410)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:02 PM

@sherpamelissa Hear, hear!!!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:55 PM

That's bizarre! What you do and what I do are completely different, which is why I upvoted you, for showing the other side of the picture. I also appreciated you noting that what you do won't be the same for everyone. You aren't WRONG about what works for you.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:52 PM

wow... downvoted. hmmmm... i would hope someone would comment when they downvote for educational purposes. when people take time out to answer people's questions in a thoughtful manner, it's ok to downvote, but at least add to the conversation as to educate us all.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:42 PM

or maybe one is causing all the others to go haywire :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

It would be nice if more doctors knew what to test for to figure out what is off. I am guessing I have cortisol, leptin, adrenal or estrogen issues, but which one? Maybe all 4 or a total mix and match, so just one protocol won't fix me

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

It would be nice if more doctors knew what to test for to figure out what is off. I am guessing I have cortisol, leptin, adrenal or estrogen issues, but which one? Maybe all 4 or a total mix and max, so just one protocol won't fix me.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:31 PM

How much do you have to lose tovesworld? Are you male or female? Not everyone has to go through this much work to maintain. Don't let the looming threat of maintenance scare you from losing weight. It is totally and completely worth it to me.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:31 PM

i still can't believe that i can eat as much as i can and not gain weight. especially when there, unfortunately, are too many weeks where i skip the gym. i have the metabolism now that i've always envied in others. it's a shame that there isn't just a formula that someone can plug in to fix themselves up. it's just so many things that determine what may be mucking up the engine...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:29 PM

You know, I rarely get cravings. It pisses my sister off. So, nutrient/mineral deficiency is probably a part of it with her pescatarian Ornish eating thing. I get hungry, but not usually for something specific.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Yes, I think gender has a lot to do with it too. Thank you for remembering to mention it. I wish I could eat as much as you! I would be a happy, happy girl.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

another thing i wanted to add is that women have the added burden of having certain cravings during their cycle and that seems to throw things off also. i do wonder, however, is that more of a nutrient/mineral deficiency manifesting itself...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:25 PM

AuH20girl, you are assuming a lot. I have lost 111lbs and I definitely need to micromanage to keep it off. I am eating the right things and doing HIIT. Not everyone is the same.

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10 Answers

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02940c80b2430270f3478151950fb105

(125)

on September 02, 2011
at 06:44 PM

Well, well. Interesting discussion. I am Debra, of Debra's Just Maintaining. Checked on my stats and saw a "bump" on Wednesday, so I investigated and found your discussion.

Some thoughts:

  1. To the person who thought you caught me on a bad day. Actually, you caught me in my first couple of blog posts. When I launched that blog last year, I was hopping mad, and had been seething for quite some time. Seven years of maintenance at that time (eight now) had not played out as the zippy lifestyle that was promised by cultural mythology. Serious health complications, moreover, caused me to have to adapt a lot. For example, I started out in LOVE with exercise, because I was a runner. Running is medicinal, until it's not. At any rate, my most recent blog post (which will be one of my final ones before I shut down to move on to new pursuits) reveals that I have become more stoic. I needed to air my anger, discuss the science that I had found with other people (and I got a great crowd to help me, as it turned out), and, more or less, I needed to be assured that I wasn't nuts. That I was right (for me) and Women's Day magazine, with the diet of the month and all the tips and tricks you could ever want, was wrong (for everyone).

  2. To the people who acknowledge that maintenance is individualized and not effortless for everyone (even those on the magic Paleo diet), bravo. I agree. In the past two years I have radically limited my grain-based carbs, but I have not eliminated them entirely. My family culture would make that too difficult. I was able to have a pretty successful maintenance for five years being a daily jogger (two days of heavy weights) and Mediterranean-foodie. I'm now closer to Paleo, with calorie monitoring, but not there entirely, and I do an exercise routine that incorporates light weights with high reps and aerobic intervals.

  3. For the Taubes fan: Please consider broadening your perspective. I'm glad his theory works for you, but it is not universally true for everyone. Gary Taubes is just a journalist and not maintaining all that much loss himself. He wears blinders that prevent him from seeing other points of view, and has Mac-truck sized holes in his theory. You can find a review of his more recent book in two blog posts on my site, if you're interested.

  4. For anyone who is overconfident in his or her routine: consider adopting humility. While optimism and hope can be helpful, they can also make you judgmental in an unhelpful way. Our health is a gift that changes over time. Within those changes are cycles, phases and surprises. All of these things can affect our hunger/satiety, our other endocrine impulses and our weight.

  5. For those of you who are new to maintenance or approaching it, you are wise to listen to the old-timers. I applaud you if you're doing that. I encourage you to start if you are not.

Thanks for visiting DJM, everyone. And thanks for having a predominantly positive, productive and open-minded conversation. I noticed one of you left a comment for me at the "Job Description" post, and I answered it. All of you should feel free to go leave comments on any post, regardless of when they were written. Subscribe to the post and I'll get back with you.

--Debra

PS Hi, Beth! Good to see you.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 02, 2011
at 07:03 PM

Kick ass. Take names. Well done. (Except for #3 which I couldn't disagree with you more on but you're certainly not the first around here to be Taubes-hating.)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:26 AM

Shari: Agreed. I was actually hopeful that ebra would get wind of this question and weigh in on it. I love her blog. She speaks the truth of radical maintainers and the truth that is virtually nowhere to be found in medical and other diet counseling. I feel the Canadians, as in Sharma and Freedhoff are waaaaay ahead of us in this area. Sharma's blog upsets people just like some were upset at what they read in Debra's blog. I posted two Sharma links re: changed metabolism in the formerly obese/morbidly obese and his take on radical maintenance and ppl totally freaked out. Too bad. until lots

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on September 02, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Hi Debra! Welcome to paleohacks! Thanks also for your considered opinion that obviously has a wealth of experience backing it up. I too am maintaining, 60lb going on 4 years now. One thing I can bring to the table is to constantly evolve and critically re-evaluate 'is this working for me?' because otherwise you end up stuck down dead ends. Also to emphasise non-diet contributors to weight gain, or rather contributors to poor choices like stress and sleep. It's tough at times but I find it ultimately enjoyable.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on September 02, 2011
at 06:47 PM

Bravo Debra! I love your reply. Especially #4. I'm sad to have just found your blog when you are moving on to new pursuits. It's impressive to have maintained your loss for so long! I'm at 2 years maintenance after 5 years losing and I truly appreciate the work that needs to go into it. <3

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:28 AM

(con't) more ppl get it, we radical maintainers will remain in "The 3% club" just as all other weight losers will remain in "The 5% club." (That is, all other weight losers, of any quantity of weight, who MAINTAIN the loss..a mere 5%.)

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on September 03, 2011
at 03:27 PM

Thank you so much for coming by Debra. I have been very much helped by the conversation here (especially sherpamelissa's comments) even though it's maybe not what I wanted to hear (that maintenance is WORK) but I think I needed to know that or I'd be setting myself up for failure.

15
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on August 31, 2011
at 02:17 PM

Maybe Paleo would help her, maybe not.

She's eating 1600-2000 calories. I am still stuck in the 1200-1400 range to maintain. A week of 1500 makes me gain weight. I am probably 98% Paleo compliant.

I was able to maintain on 1200 calories with minimal exercise. I could do 2 days of 30/40 mins HIIT and still maintain my weight. So, I didn't have to exercise as much as her.

I think it depends on how damaged your metabolism was to start. I am guessing I am pretty messed up and even with 2 years of maintaining, almost a year of Paleo, I am not "fixed". I am rarely satiated. I am still hungry often.

One thing she mentioned was that if she did gain, that it wasn't as easy as "getting back to plan" to make the weight melt of. I agree with that. I took a month off from my usual routine and have gained 5lbs that I can't seem to get rid of. I am currently working through a PSMF (protein sparing modified fast) and increased exercise routine to get back to my comfortable weight.

MAINTENANCE IS NOT EASY. At least not for me and not for many formerly obese people that I know. It is a lifetime of work. It's worth it though.

I don't think enough time is spent with people in weight loss programs explaining the difficulty of maintenance. Many people think they can go back to their old habits as soon as they hit their ~goal weight~ (insert rainbows and unicorns here) and that's just not true. I started researching maintenance about 1/2 way through my weight loss and was amazed and saddened a bit by how much work it seemed to be for many formerly obese people. The good thing though, is that the research prepared me for what was to come.

I would love to be able to eat unweighed/unmeausured Paleo and maintain my weight. It just hasn't happened for me.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:29 PM

You know, I rarely get cravings. It pisses my sister off. So, nutrient/mineral deficiency is probably a part of it with her pescatarian Ornish eating thing. I get hungry, but not usually for something specific.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I know that I can't go back to how I was eating before but it's the unhappiness of her story (her whole blog is very good) including exercise that she does not even like. that's the part that gets to me really.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:41 PM

Well, I have days like that. I have days it's really UNFAIR that my body sucks and I have to work so hard to maintain. Then I have days that I just love my new body and I'm so proud of myself for getting here. I think we caught her on a day she was feeling a bit off about it all. Finding exercise that you love can be a challenge, so can finding time to do it. There are so many options out there though, you just have to try them all out!

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:45 PM

I have to remember, too, that she is writing this post specifically to share the "lose weight, have a new life" mindset and I do appreciate that since we don't talk about the After much once the picture is snapped.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

another thing i wanted to add is that women have the added burden of having certain cravings during their cycle and that seems to throw things off also. i do wonder, however, is that more of a nutrient/mineral deficiency manifesting itself...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 31, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Haha "rainbows and unicorns". Good answer.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:50 AM

Thank you , Melissa. Beautiful post.

8
6229cd9a7ca9882590259fae022e2647

(3209)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:33 PM

I have lost over a 100lbs as well and the only micromanagement I do is weigh myself nearly every morning like I would check my bank account. I don't measure my food. I love the food I eat and I love the exercise I do. I love feeling good and strong. This way of eating and living is in no way a punishment. That's the difference. I've fully and enthusiatically embraced it. I do have to watch my weight though just like I have to watch my bank account.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:49 PM

I like the bank account analogy! I spent the past year eating whatever I wanted ON PURPOSE because I never got to do that and I needed to learn what I wanted and what happened when I ate too much. That set me up to limit myself and see it as choice, not punishment. Getting to say YES to chocolate anytime I wanted it this year has helped me see that I don't always want it as much as I THINK I do and as much as seeing it as "bad" set me up to think that way. Now I'm understanding that food is morally neutral (the way we produce it may not be) and that I have CHOICES to fuel my body & my spirit.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I love the food that I eat and the exercise I do. I don't consider maintenance a punishment. I am aware of the gift I have given myself and embrace it. Sadly, that isn't enough to convince my metabolism that I can eat unweighed/unmeasured.

6229cd9a7ca9882590259fae022e2647

(3209)

on September 01, 2011
at 07:07 PM

I have maintained most of it for 8 yrs or so. I've been as low as 180 (about a yr ago) from 320, but my body seems to love the 210ish range. My 12 yr old daughter is my height and weighs 200lbs, but she looks fantastic even in a bikini. She is very athletic and is very active. So maybe I am where my 32 yr old body wants to be.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 31, 2011
at 11:00 PM

vdh: How long have you maintained your 100lb weightloss?

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:21 AM

The is in NO way a criticsm, but rather a statement of scientific evidence as well as the well documented evidence re: ALL losers. Of radical losers, such as yourself, only about 3% are able to maintain. Of ALL other losers, about 5%. I love Debra's blog (have been a reader) because she writes the truth that nobody wants to hear, and that is conspicuously absent in medical and other "diet counseling."

6229cd9a7ca9882590259fae022e2647

(3209)

on September 03, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Yes you are right. I guess the difference though is at this point I am fully on board with the right food and it doesn't feel like a punishment. I think my body is one of those that wants to be fat. As long as I watch the numbers on the scale, I should be ok. My body stayed in this 210 - 220 range for a few years before I went down to 180. In the past I've also led a rather sedentary life. That has also changed. I feel pretty good about being in that 3% range. I think the 97% that have failed did fail because they did the low fat crap diet that is pushed by CW.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:14 AM

Yes, your body over the last year has pushed you up about 37 lbs back toward setpoint. (I think I read in another post of yours that your weight at this time is about 217.) So, you have lost a very significant amount, but like the vast majority of radical losers (97% to be exact) you are gaining significantly as well since your 1 year ago initial low of 180. This is standard and is the heart of the issue of the OP's inquiry. Research tells us that every year there will be more of a push, which is why radical weightloss takes radical maintenance.

8
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on August 31, 2011
at 02:19 PM

for me, paleo has made loss and maintenance mindlessly simple. i eat foods that are killed or grown almost all of the time; i don't weigh or measure; i don't count calories; i occasionally skip meal here and there- just because i can, painlessly and voila- my weight stays the same. along the way i found out that for me, macronutrient ratios didn't matter after metabolic healing had taken place and insulin/leptin sensitivity returned. also, if i listen to my body, it naturally tells me whether it needs more or less carbohydrate or fat. i'm rarely high fat and high carb, and those time where it's happened, my body either is satiated for a long time- as in a 24 hour fast following it- or i'll go do something that expends alot of energy. i really do think that energy balance is the key to a healthy metabolism- as stephan has been writing about recently.

caveat: i think that there is a very real difference in gender when it comes to weight loss and maintenance and i'm pretty sure that it's hormonal. i find that women who are hard losers many times also have hypothyroidism symptoms. that hypothyroidism can also be a manifestation of estrogen dominance. there seems to be alot of other factors brewing when it comes to weight loss in females that can be very frustrating to work through. but i do think those two issues are good places to start. h

having said that, i don't think all that this woman does is necessary. if she can gain ten pounds by not working out for a month, then she still has some serious metabolic healing to do, and i'd be very surprised if she doesn't have wheat and seed oils in her diet still because it sounds like there's still a good bit of inflammation there. that type of exercise is unsustainable. that's how i found paleo, i hurt myself with chronic cardio and it forced me to find a dietary solution to my lifelong weight problem. my bad achilles is the best thing that ever happened to me:-)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:31 PM

i still can't believe that i can eat as much as i can and not gain weight. especially when there, unfortunately, are too many weeks where i skip the gym. i have the metabolism now that i've always envied in others. it's a shame that there isn't just a formula that someone can plug in to fix themselves up. it's just so many things that determine what may be mucking up the engine...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

It would be nice if more doctors knew what to test for to figure out what is off. I am guessing I have cortisol, leptin, adrenal or estrogen issues, but which one? Maybe all 4 or a total mix and match, so just one protocol won't fix me

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:40 PM

@loon i honestly feel for women because i really do think they have a lot of confounding factors in their weight loss journeys than men. also, their are estrogenic men who have similar problems.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:47 PM

I like to hear a diversity of opinions, too, which is why I called a couple of you out specifically. I feel like you have experiences that are different but equally illuminating and that's really to the benfit of the whole community. (I mean, as a woman @sherpamelissa's experience may resonate more with me but that doesn't mean a man couldn't happen upon this thread and really need to hear what @luckybastard has to say!!)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:52 PM

wow... downvoted. hmmmm... i would hope someone would comment when they downvote for educational purposes. when people take time out to answer people's questions in a thoughtful manner, it's ok to downvote, but at least add to the conversation as to educate us all.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:42 PM

or maybe one is causing all the others to go haywire :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

It would be nice if more doctors knew what to test for to figure out what is off. I am guessing I have cortisol, leptin, adrenal or estrogen issues, but which one? Maybe all 4 or a total mix and max, so just one protocol won't fix me.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Yes, I think gender has a lot to do with it too. Thank you for remembering to mention it. I wish I could eat as much as you! I would be a happy, happy girl.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:04 PM

*SHRUGS* oh well. i like hearing diversity of opinion.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:35 PM

Luckybastard, you are living up to your name, and are from now on banned from telling us how mindless it is for you lol! I think it is somewhere in the Quilt where he says that balancing men's hormones is a cinch. (BTW, I didn't downvote, can't read that fast.)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:55 PM

That's bizarre! What you do and what I do are completely different, which is why I upvoted you, for showing the other side of the picture. I also appreciated you noting that what you do won't be the same for everyone. You aren't WRONG about what works for you.

4
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:48 PM

I lost 70-75 pounds (I bounce around in a 5-pound range) from April 2007 to December 2009, first going VLC (20g of carbs per day) to lose 30 pounds, and then ZC in September 2009 to lose the remainder. I maintain my current weight by being pretty strictly animal-only, with coffee and spices. If I go super-clean paleo -- no wine, no chocolate, no dairy -- I can lose another 5-10 pounds and stay there, all with no formal exercise.

I don't find it difficult, but it is restrictive, without a doubt. Every time I've added even green vegetables (brussel sprouts and cabbage are faves), much less so-called "safe" starches, my weight has rocketed up 15 or so pounds over a several-week period, and I call off the experiment because I know I'll end up back where I was before on VLC.

(I don't especially buy that it's water weight due to eating these foods "incorrectly," that is, eating them in the wrong amounts and the wrong combinations at the wrong times, but perhaps adding carbs back in requires exceptional tracking and micromanagement. I don't know, and quite frankly, I probably will never find out. The plain fact for me is that eating zero-carb is effortless in that regard -- I don't count, weigh, or measure a damn thing; I just ask, "Is it meat?")

I do have to say that before I started eating this way, I would have been totally put off by the prospect of eating such a "restricted" diet for the rest of my life. I am very sympathetic to the fear of restriction for life, and had I known my fate back then, I'd probably have never tried this, and would weigh over 300 pounds by now. But that's only because I would not have known how relatively easy this way of eating is, and how free from hunger and cravings I am. In that sense, I'm glad I was clueless then, because it allowed me to get going on this path by telling myself that it's only a short-term experiment, lol.

So, to answer the question in this post's title, I wonder if she limited her refined carbs even more, she might find herself less chained to her routine. But I also notice that many of the other answers in this thread are similarly themed; to wit: "If she did what I do, she wouldn't have to work this hard." And I do know of a couple of ZCers (well, three, actually) who didn't lose, even after a year of strict meat-only. So I think the real answer is, there's no way to tell from here. I think at some point we have to back away from second-guessing other people's choices, and realize that they're the ones with the clinical data about their own experiences, and the motive to apply that data to themselves.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:14 PM

Melissa, I almost named you specifically as an exception to the "everyone says do what I do" observation -- you're always so balanced and sane, and I really appreciate your comments on PH. And I continue to be fascinated by people's varying responses to macronutrient ratio tinkering, calories, exercise -- the whole package. In theory we're all the same species, but in practice you gotta wonder sometimes, lol.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:55 PM

Yay Rose! Maintenance is a topic close to my heart and I'm glad you replied! Thanks for pointing out specifically what was aggravating me "If she did what I do, she wouldn't have to work this hard." because it's just not true. It's a possibility, but no one knows for sure what will work for other people. I think about how you eat often (ZC) and if maybe that would make things less hard for me. (Is it meat? LOVE IT) I'm just not willing to try it yet because going too low carb has caused me mood issues. (I know the opposite is true for you.) I may still try it some day.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Why thank you, Rose! I try really, really hard to see all sides of the picture. Honestly, that's why got me posting on PH to start with. All the people saying "THIS WAY IS RIGHT. IF YOU DON'T DO PALEO ~MY WAY~ YOU AREN'T PALEO ENOUGH" was driving me crazy and I had to jump in. I always appreciate that you understand Zero Carb isn't for everyone, but present your points of view. I have learned a lot from you!

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 08:35 PM

Thank you for this reminder, Rose, that we are all of us different. It helped hearing Melissa say not to be afraid of maintenance. I really need to keep this one day at a time because then it feels a lot more manageable!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Why thank you, Rose! I try really, really hard to see all sides of the picture. Honestly, that's what got me posting on PH to start with. All the people saying "THIS WAY IS RIGHT. IF YOU DON'T DO PALEO ~MY WAY~ YOU AREN'T PALEO ENOUGH" was driving me crazy and I had to jump in. I always appreciate that you understand Zero Carb isn't for everyone, but present your points of view. I have learned a lot from you

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Thank you for speaking up Melissa, Mem. That is one of the most destructive memes of the Paleo world. And the continuation of such talk will keep the paleo thing firmly in the faddish cult category. For some, it really has become, "My omega6/3 ratio can beat up your honor student."

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:46 AM

(con't) continuation of everything we did to lose, with *ongoing* adjustments. THERE IS NOT ARRIVAL. And every year for us, the biological push to regain - the push towad setpoint will infact, be stronger. Are there things we can do about this that may ameliorate this a little or even alot? Yes, but they are not endpoints, they are *ongoing actions* every day of our lives. (Thanks for being patient with my rant.)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:42 AM

(con't) and see that Debra, whose blog I read, had responded herself, along with other excellent responses.As I said in another response, I know i don't have the answers for all others at all. But I also now that as radical maintainers (and at least 4 of us have written here) we are in a very rare "club." Being in the 3% club tells me something, since 97% of losers DO NOT maintain and not only gain it all back, but gain more. Something we are doing must be very right. And however it is done, the key, IMHO, which is what Debra's blog is all about, is that essentially, maintenance is simply a

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:37 AM

I so appreciate your response, Rose. I had been pointed to this PH question by Melissa, and to be totally honest, over two days, i have tried to "get it together" to answer it. But, I've just had this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I'm a little over the top lately with all of the absolutism and THE RIGHT WAY and the absolute, angry eschewing in some cases of what solid research tells us about us formerly obese, expecially radical losers, coupled with "you'd be fixed if you only did it this way." BLAH. I just hit a real wall with it in the last few days. So, I was glad to come here

3
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 04:57 PM

Hopefully you're reading J Stanton's fabulous Why Are We Hungry? series, and you'll see that there are certainly clues that eating paleo will help most folks get to a place where their weight and hunger stabilizes. At this point, I'm thinking that eating unprocessed nutrient-dense foods is certainly key. But as we're finding out, folks who lose weight aren't the same as those who never gained weight.

As someone on the journey (not yet at weight maintenance but have lost 100 lbs), I suspect that there are things that can help re maintenance. I'm looking at ensuring nutrients that help digestion and help the liver do its job, as well as using BBS to help restore insulin sensitivity in muscles, and HIIT to (hopefully) help improve basal metabolism.

I've been slowly losing on about 1300-1400 cals/day with very little hunger. It will be interesting to see where I can get to! I don't expect maintenance to be more work than weight loss, but that's also because I don't expect to change my approach once I get to goal (this was lifestyle change, not short-term diet).

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 07:01 PM

Thanks Melissa! Yes, my weight loss has been slow too. I'm not sure it's that it's helping the brain as much as it implies not overriding the brain's desire for food, i.e., white-knuckling! J Stanton said in part 4 of his series: "Restrained eating requires the exercise of willpower to override likes, wants, and the lack of satiation or satiety; the exercise of willpower uses energy and causes stress; and stress makes you eat more. Therefore, a successful diet must minimize the role of willpower." Makes sense to me ;).

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:57 PM

That's absolutely awesome, Beth! You are right that maintenance should not be much different. That's a very important realization that I don't think many people attempting to lose weight come to. It took me 5 years to lose, but I think going slow helped my brain deal with the new me.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Right, it's not that you don't ever use willpower, but IMO, if you need to use it chronically (i.e., all the time), loss and/or maintenance are going to be hard to sustain. Or as Yoni Freedhoff says, it helps to live the life you love, not the one you tolerate.

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 08:33 PM

I'm not reading that series but clearly I need to. Thank you so much for the recommendation!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 07:15 PM

Well, I'd be lost without my willpower. It's pretty much all that keeps me from diving into my daughter's chocolate stash. I understand the concept though.

3
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:12 PM

The blog posts seemed overly whine-y and pessimistic. That said, many people do have trouble with maintenance and find it to be much more difficult that just gaining or losing. Many cannot go back to eating any foods that probably landed them in trouble in the first place. Everyone is different. In her defense, it is easy to be pessimistic when you are doing many right things and the result is failure. Paleo may or may not be the solution for her. It is a workable solution for many, but it doesn't solve all problems. It is easy for people who aren't in her situation to judge her behavior a bit harshly.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:31 PM

Thank you Shari!

60c285ff1dff1ea5af6a5820aa5320cf

(266)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:45 PM

Yeah, I'm never going to get to have donut Sundays willy-nilly again but then I don't think that's good for ANYONE fat or not!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:15 PM

+1 for The Loon. I completely agree.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 01, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Oh those were the days. Not going to happen around here anymore either, for both the guys and the gals.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:49 PM

But my experience is that fat people also stall out on Paleo, or never even lose at all. Despite its flaws, you can see the same pattern in the POUNDS LOST study after 2 years on a low carb diet. Lots of people go directly from weight loss back to weight gain. There is no stability.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 03, 2011
at 05:31 AM

Yes, The Loon, it is a real understatement to say that "many" people do have trouble with maintenance. The numbers are: 95 -97% GAIN IT ALL BACK AND MORE. This is the very essence of Debra's blog - the myth of "maintenace" as it exists in the cultural mind/mythology. Maintenance? WHAT maintenance is the appropriate question.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:56 AM

(con't) in which there is a horrible lack of real, accurate knowlege in this area! We are actually the extreme outliers, the total weirdos who have somehow figured out what works for each of us individually.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Most people use that 95-97 percent failure rate as proof that the low-fat diet method doesn't work. And then, in addition, some higher-carb paleo "hot-shots" who think that they have earned the right to speak for all say that this failure rate proves that the Atkins diet and other low-carb diets are also sub-optimal.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 07:52 PM

This is why Guyenet and Taubes, while they may either be right or wrong with their theories, are really dealing with the wrong thing. Who cares why we get fat or how we get thin? Hardly anyone is looking at why we can't maintain. No matter what diet she follows, the writer deserves to be a bit pessimistic.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:55 AM

@LLoon: I hear you, although I think that identifying why we get fat and a menu of the best ways to lose is important. But the real hidden giant in all of this is the maintenance piece and the fact that even among those trained in the medical professions and allied health professions such as dieticians, nurses, etc., there is an abysmal and really total lack of the knowlege that *does8 eist re: maintenance. Thus, those of us who *do* make it and maintain really need to support each other as well as hold our ground firmly because we have essentially eeked out paths that DO work in a world

2
66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:42 PM

The way I see it Paleo is not a diet, it is a Lifestyle and one of the benefits of this Lifestyle is weight loss. Like someone said 'This way of eating and living is in no way a punishment'. This is what the human body & mind need to be healthy, based on 1-2 million years of evolution. Paleo is wide open and can be tailored to each individual, as each person is unique. Any good change takes time for the positive effects to manifest esp if one is metabolically deranged it can take months and even years to reverse the damage done from decades of abuse and eating SAD.

Fbfeabf01eb1ee04cca22d44edc1275e

(10)

on August 31, 2011
at 04:45 PM

+1 for saying Paleo is a Lifestyle not a diet, or religion or cult, etc ;)

0
0e2772604bdb3627525b42d77340538b

on August 31, 2011
at 02:20 PM

Good gravy, NO! NO NO NO NO!

I've lost ~35lbs (granted, not as much as some others) and kept it off relatively effortlessly.

I do not count calories. I do not measure. I don't worry too much about my macronutrient ratios (although people with a LOT of weight to lose seem to do better starting out pretty low-carb).

I eat. Real food. Sprint 1x per week, weight 2 or 3x per week - which sometimes just consists of carrying full water cans around watering the many, many flowers, piggybacking 70-80lb kids up the stairs, or bodyweight exercises.

That's it.

She may just be obsessive (which I think is part of it), but if she really needs to micromanage that much, she's eating the wrong things and not exercising properly (aerobics!).

Edited to add: I missed the part where the OP said she had a lot to lose - I realize it may be different if you've lost a lot of weight. Thanks, Melissa.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:25 PM

AuH20girl, you are assuming a lot. I have lost 111lbs and I definitely need to micromanage to keep it off. I am eating the right things and doing HIIT. Not everyone is the same.

020053fd576e93d1d8fa20bfb10979b9

(410)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:02 PM

@sherpamelissa Hear, hear!!!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 01, 2011
at 03:00 AM

AuH20girl: When did you hit goal weight?

0e2772604bdb3627525b42d77340538b

(953)

on September 02, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Well, I got down to where I wanted to about six months ago - and lost 5 more since.

-2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:00 PM

People who are exercising and counting calories to lose weight and are on a Paleo/Primal program must not have read Taubes' Good calories Bad Calories. It's not about calories-in/calories out. That's old thinking. It will be hard to get back to your new weight. It could take years. Don't restrict your calories! It doesn't work! Be satiated. It's very important that you not feel restricted in what you eat (other than the carbs of course!).

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 31, 2011
at 10:55 PM

This is great in theory however it's a real downer for those for whom it does not work. This kind of dogma has the underlying implication that you are personally at fault if it does not work out for you.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:42 PM

in the big picture, calories are important. we are fatter because we do eat more collectively. however, on a practical level, getting your leptin/insulin sensitivity and inflammation down goes a long way to telling your brain to eat less without consciously doing so.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 31, 2011
at 05:05 PM

I agree re the counting calories part (though I don't think GCBC has it exactly right). But I do think exercise is important -- not to burn calories, but to actually affect the overall system. I'm totally with Mark Sisson that chronic cardio is not ideal, but that lifting heavy things and sprinting are both helpful from an evolutionary standpoint.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:56 PM

I have read GCBC, Patrick. Thank you. Unfortunately, my metabolism has not. I tried raising calories with limiting carbs. Feel free to check out my food log anytime, the link is in my profile. I wish I didn't have to restrict my calories. I really, really, really do.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 02, 2011
at 07:05 PM

Patrick. I'm not going to down vote you but...Oye. Hope you hang around here long enough to know that some of us do have to restrict both carbs and calories and we've pretty much all read Taubes (and many of us agree with most of what he has to say) You just can't make sweeping statements like that.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 01, 2011
at 01:15 AM

Which is ironic, considering that the whole calories-in, calories-out model was used as a club to beat people with in a similar way. ("If you're still fat, you're still eating too many calories -- control yourself!") It seems to me that whichever model is correct in the case of obesity, the real problem is with the people who judge others -- obviously, this is some kind of persistent human trait.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 03, 2011
at 08:00 PM

Rose, it is interesting that in the paleo world and in the civilized world, there is still no shortage of clubs. Patrick, I'm not going to down-vote you either, because you are already in negative territory.

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