8

votes

Why do people fixate on dairy in your diet?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 17, 2011 at 2:01 AM

Ok, so I admit it, I'm lacto-paleo.

Apparently this is some sort of abomination, because in discussions I've had around the web it seems like people fixate on that fact and won't help me with anything else until I swear off the stuff.

I've never been a big dairy eater, but I still enjoy having a little bit of sour cream on taco salads and cheese (portabella pizza anyone?). And every now and then, coconut milk isn't available and I use half & half or cream in my coffee. (Ye gods, the world might end when I do that!)

I'm even in the works to get raw milk from a local farm in the next few weeks to make my own yogurt.

Someone said "Dairy is only designed to fatten up young, so that's why you're not losing weight." Does that have any merit?

P.S. Other paleo in the house is probably always going to eat dairy as well, so even if I had to stop eating it, it would be difficult because it wouldn't be a mutual thing.

P.P.S. I should also add that I've NEVER EVER had an issue with lactose intolerance in my entire life. I've been drinking / consuming dairy since I was a kid with zero intestinal, or digestive issues what so ever.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on February 17, 2013
at 04:49 AM

I lost 100lbs while eating dairy. It was also hard as shit. I lost the last 20lbs after that 100 by cutting out dairy completely, and it was easier. Quilt knows what hes talking about. Dairy is not a good weight loss food: it's anabolic and hyper-rewarding. rest of yall a buncha GRAIN BRAINS LOL

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:34 PM

Adam, I also have lost (over 40#), whilst consuming heavy cream, butter, cottage cheese (oh noes!), cheese, sour cream and yoghurt. Thank goodness! Without dairy, I would go crazy.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Great analogy! And a fine thing to remember.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on April 19, 2011
at 12:08 AM

I lost 25lbs while eating hard cheeses, heavy cream, butter, ghee, and fermented dairy. Maybe I could have lost more, faster without it, but it went great with my happiness and exercise!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:54 PM

Absolutely Oranges. I plan the lunches here at my work and VERY RARELY partake in them. The people I work with have watched me go from obese to fit. It was weird at first, but now they are all used to my eating habits. WHO CARES IF THEY THINK YOU ARE ANOREXIC. You know what you are doing for your health.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:42 PM

yes. 1) dont eat. 2) scrape off the sour cream/cheese. 3) dont eat the items that contain the sour cream and cheese. 4) again, keep your eyes on your own mat. im sorry if you dont like the answers youre getting, but you are not a victim here. no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to eat cheese and sour cream. you are choosing to.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:40 PM

I love your analogies. :)

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:39 PM

*licking marscapone from my fingers*

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:33 PM

So at a catered lunch I just *don't eat* even if I'm starving just because there's a dollop of sour cream or cheese mixed in that I realistically can't pick out? That's beyond uncomfortable, that makes people think you're anorexic or something.

08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on April 18, 2011
at 04:38 AM

I think the `K` stands for ``Kwuack``

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 18, 2011
at 03:13 AM

I would argue for a 4th camp. There are those of us who have no ideological issue with dairy but have seen it effect weight loss in ourselves or others. Dairy is a classic issue for many with regard to weight loss. I don't know why that is (which bothers me) but I know that it is. I lost a boatload of fat using dairy heavily but hit a plateau and the ONLY think that would break it was giving up the dairy. I don't think it's fair to say that no one can eat dairy and lose weight but it is something worth consideration if one is struggling regardless of what has worked in the past.

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Yes I understand that what works for one may not for another. He was stating his difficulty getting answers because of people judging him for eating dairy. Just letting him know there are others out there, like me that eat it and point him in the direction of othersthat eat dairy that will answer his questions without bias

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 17, 2011
at 10:45 PM

oh, I love your comparison to denominations in Judaism! so true :)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:13 PM

Amazing what people think they read huh?

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 17, 2011
at 08:21 PM

The thing is, that there might be nothing wrong. It might be that you eat all the right thing, in the correct proportions, you exercise enough etc. Maybe simply your body needs to get used to all new style, get the hormones in balance, figure out it's for longer and not starvation... It's not magic, our bodies are beautiful, complex systems. Try and see if you can go a month without any measurements and no checking of weight. i did it while I was doing Whole30 (I didn't complete it, but almost). It was nice to see a difference, that I might have not even noticed if I was checking every day!

4053633587abf4b09c637f307ca8b2c6

(261)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:37 PM

I don't think Dr. K was trying to equate dairy and heroin. Just saying it could cause someone to fall off the wagon, and it does cause crazy out of proportion (re. the amount of sugar-presumably less so for higher fat dairy) insulin spikes, so it can be a major problem for some people. Try to cut it out and see what happens. Sometimes you just have to tweak here and there for a while to see what works. What works for someone may not work for you, so that's great that some people have had so much success with being able to keep dairy in the diet, but all bodies work differently.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:11 PM

Dr.K, I admire your knowledge and experience, but the moment you equaled dairy consumption to heroin, you simply got into the demagogy field.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:05 PM

The insulinogenic compounds in dairy are the proteins and sugars. If tolerated, dairy products that are primarily fat shouldn't be a problem for weight loss, no?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:29 PM

You seem to keep missing the point, Oranges. It is NEVER unavoidable. The choice to consume it is YOURS and no one elses. It may be uncomfortable or weird, it may suck a lot, but you don't have to eat anything you don't want to.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:10 PM

I only use cream when I can't get coconut milk, I didn't start this annoying plateau until I started doing the whole 30 and cut out dairy (except in circumstances, as mentioned above, where its unavoidable).

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:08 PM

I only started plateauing when I DID cut it out in majority. I was eating cream by the cupful the first week of paleo and had GREAT success.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on April 17, 2011
at 05:21 PM

@Oranges 13: As for the dogmatists, just avoid them and don't waste your time. I think the advice of WCC Paul, KD, and Rose is sound: Cut it out for a month and see if you break through the plateau. If you do and that's the only change you make, perhaps reconsider it.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on April 17, 2011
at 05:17 PM

@Oranges 13: As for the dogmatists, just avoid them and don't waste your time. I think the advice of WCC Paul, KD, and Rose is sound: Cut it out for a month and see if you break through the plateau. If you do and that's the only change you make, maybe you can make dairy a small part of your diet if you decide to resume it.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 17, 2011
at 05:15 PM

Also, Dr. K, from Dougkas et al's. 2010 review: "The majority of data available from both epidemiological and intervention studies provide evidence of a negative but modest association between milk and dairy product consumption and BMI and other measures of adiposity, with indications that higher intakes result in increased weight loss and lean tissue maintenance during energy restriction."

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on April 17, 2011
at 05:14 PM

@Dr. K: I consume dairy and I'm still dropping weight. I'm down 27 pounds and counting, with a goal of about 5 more pounds or so to go. I don't consume much daily -- about 6% of total daily calories on average -- and there's stretches of days when I have none. I did cut it out for about 1 month, and have added back. No effect on MY weight loss or my health in my experience; YMMV for others, though some stories here corroborate with mine. I don't buy the purported axiom that dairy should be avoided at all costs for everyone. Perhaps for some folks it is not good, though.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 17, 2011
at 05:09 PM

So Dr. K, you're telling me the ventral tegmental area has nothing to do with rewarding addictive behavior? I guess I'll just cross out that bit from all of my neuroscience and neurology textbooks.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:30 PM

Couldn't the problem simply be to watch the caloric intake of full fat dairy because it don't take much to put u in surplus when it comes to losing bodyfat?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:12 PM

And I am not saying you can't lose weight with dairy it's just a lot more difficult and not optimal due to simultaneous insulin and cortisol release

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:10 PM

And in that nucleus their lies the CART enzyme system which is a metabolic pathway where cocaine amphetamines carbohydrate narcotic and alcohol meet dopamine reward tracts

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:07 PM

@dr k. I'm sorry but I have just not found this to be true where the rubber meets the road. In my personal experience and the ppl I've helped- about 20 since the year started- all are lacto paleo and all who are compliant lose steadily and rather quickly. And to be clear, I'm talkin cream, butter and some cheese.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:39 PM

Nucleus accumbens.......and the tracts running to and fro in the median forebrain bundle. AVOID DAIRY FOR WEIGHT LOSS!

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:32 PM

Also, the first 10 pounds I lost, I was eating MORE dairy than I am now (was on the "ok I can drink this entire carton of cream for dinner" plan)

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:30 PM

I was supposed to be doing the Whole 30 but there are instances (at work, etc) where non-dairy alternatives just AREN'T available. WE had a catered lunch last week with tacos, so I ate the filling but not the shells, which included some cheese and sour cream. I will put half and half in my coffee from time to time, but prefer coconut milk. Things like that.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 17, 2011
at 11:15 AM

Peter at Hyperlipid has a nice rebuttal to the Dr. Davis post: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/butter-insulin-and-dr-davis.html I agree that SOME people should give up dairy in order to lose weight/clear up acne/lactose intolerance. And its worth trying to see if it makes a difference. But not necessary for many people.

2afe070b43de645b908b3cb1f4723811

(144)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:54 AM

Agreed. And 'dairy' covers a lot of things anyway. You should evaluate on a case-case basis, in terms of the animal (goat, sheep, mare, etc), preparation, nutrition and how it affects you. For instance, take a look at the nutritional profile of Brie - lots of B12, lots of good quality saturated fat, ~2:1 n6:n3 (and low overall), good amounts of selenium... what's not to like?

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:08 AM

anyway, what food is designed for us in the grand scheme of things?

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:01 AM

but cream and butter are so good, and I have given up all carbohydrates, sugars, and beer..........don't tell me it's the dairy that's screwing up my weight loss !

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:24 AM

I guess I'm with KD, and Rose below. Why not just cut the dairy completely for a month? Conducting experiments like this can be massively annoying and inconvenient but they are also really, really enlightening. Or so I've found. Just try some radical changes (whether it's about removing dairy or doing something else -- nuts? fruit?) and stick with them for a month at a time. And if you've got people refusing to talk to you because you are lacto-paleo then they're being silly. I don't think that sort of thing happens on Paleohacks, at least. Anyhow lots of people here are lacto-paleo KGH fans.

3edf46d729f17cfff798b66eaa1ecb02

(334)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:09 AM

ditto Rose. if you're plateauing, it probably means something needs tweaked. if you're asking others for help, inevitably someone is going to have advice that you don't like...doesn't mean it can't hurt just to try it anyway.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:42 AM

@Luckybastard: Yep, and I'm down 30+ and counting with dairy. We're not alone. But do tell us Dr. K, what nucleus in the brain does EtOH and "narcotics" act upon? I mean last time I checked, there's at least 6 parts of the brain involved in that reward/addiction circuit. But I guess it isn't really important if you accidentally lesion 5 of those regions during brain surgery...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 05:17 AM

I understand the sentiment behind the replies telling the OP to "relax" and not worry about dairy. But here's the thing: Saying "Well, *I* ate X and Y and lost weight" doesn't help someone else who's also eating X and Y, but is stalling. Loads of people lose weight on standard low carb, but *I* stalled until I went zero carb. Just because Person A can eat dairy, or veggies, or whatever, and lose weight, doesn't mean Person B can. It sucks, but there it is.

A993550f2a130df8d3462c08582f08ec

(589)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:52 AM

@Tim: I'm sure that Oranges means pizza toppings in a Portabella cap. I've made stuffed mushrooms before, but this sounds pretty good! As far as the OP is concerned, I'm not sure about the biochemistry. I just know that dairy (even goat yogurt or conventional butter) upsets my stomach, so I avoid it 90% of the time.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:33 AM

really doc? i ate copious amounts of dairy and lost 60 lbs, as did my father, mom and everyone else i put on the diet. by what mechanisms will a person who has no problems with dairy not lose weight because of the dairy consumption?

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:26 AM

Pasteurized conventional dairy = hurts my tummy. I am willing to give the truly good quality stuff a chance if I ever find any in Canada. I was doing "organic" butter for a while but it was bogging me down.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 03:23 AM

Nice edit. Upvoted.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:20 AM

i cleaned it up a bit.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:06 AM

Ah. Well, I can't help with the exercise (I'm a slug), but regarding the plateau, if people are suggesting you try giving up dairy for a while, but you don't want to... I'm just a newbie here, but if "people fixate on" dairy, could be because they've got some experience with it. Just sayin'.

170794d4eef80de2691106c483a31ebd

(96)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:55 AM

Why don't you cut the dairy and see if weight loss resumes? No point in trying to justify this, that, and the other.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:53 AM

If your leptin resistant and you drink one teaspoon.....you won't lose an ounce. Do you allow a heroin addict a bit of heroin? Or an alcoholic a shot once in a while? Carbs act upon the same nucleus in the brain as booze and narcotics......epic fail. Educate yourself and win. You can overcome this.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:51 AM

I'm similar. I have an ounce or two in my coffee when I can't find coconut milk (work, or out and about). I'll have a slice of cheese now and then, but otherwise it isn't a big part of my diet.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:50 AM

@Dr. K - I'd believe that if I were drinking gallons of the stuff weekly. As it is, I'm probably having 1 - 2 cups of various dairy a week, if that.

3ccab807e2b8bb1d050c3584d9c1dd12

(487)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Portabella pizza? aren't you eating gluten?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Nice............

B4ec9ce369e43ea83f06ee645169cee0

on April 17, 2011
at 02:42 AM

oh please get over yourself!! upvoted.

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Downvoted because I think it should be possible to express our opinions without profanity. Use it on your own time, please.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Did you hear about the cows they've genetically engineered to produce "human milk" as a formula replacement? SCARY!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:35 AM

And you wonder why you don't lose weight? You just answered your own question.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:35 AM

I'm just asking for help to hack a plateau, and I'm getting criticism on my weight training routine (I do a weight "class" 2x weekly as its the best I can do) and they're basically saying TOTALLY USELESS GO USE FREE WEIGHTS YOURSELF.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:12 AM

When you say, "won't help you with anything else," what's "anything else" mean? If it's weight loss or digestive issues, many people run into trouble with dairy, so that's probably why. But if, say, you can't lift as much as you'd like, or can't figure out how to change your bike tire, then dairy's probably not the problem.

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11 Answers

12
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on April 17, 2011
at 05:32 PM

Oranges, I think your main question is why you are having a hard time getting advice you feel you can use from other forums because when you tell them what you eat, they tell you to drop dairy and that's not what you want to hear.

Number one, I think you should probably pick the forum/message board that best supports your views on Paleo and nutrition and stick with it. Most forums have kind of a personality and you are likely to get a lot of conflicting, confusing advice if you keep posting the same question on a bunch of different Paleo forums.

Number two, you may need to drop dairy in order to lose weight. You won't know for sure until you try it. Dairy can be paleo, but that doesn't mean it is right for you and your weight loss journey.

I know it is tough to give up dairy if you are used to having it, but it is worth giving it a shot for 30 days. You have to be strict with it though, or there is no point in even trying.

You have to prepare for situations like the taco lunch and work and bring your own food or skip the meal. I know it feels weird to be different than everyone else. You don't want to bring attention to yourself and your weight or your eating issues. Trust me, most people are impressed when you stick to your nutrition plan despite temptations. The more you do it, the more you'll get used to the feeling.

With your coffee, you need to either learn to like it black or try coconut milk/almond milk as another choice.

Or... you can keep asking for advice and not listening to any of it. Sometimes, it's just not what you want to hear. For me it's fruit. I can't eat very much or I gain weight. It sucks, but I prefer to keep my weight down rather than eat yummy bananas. It doesn't matter what your housemates can do, each body and how we react to food is slightly different. You have to find what works for you and stop worrying about what works for them and how unfair it is that you can't eat like they do.

P.S. I think Body Pump is fine for your fitness! You don't need to do free weights. Enjoy your class.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:10 PM

I only use cream when I can't get coconut milk, I didn't start this annoying plateau until I started doing the whole 30 and cut out dairy (except in circumstances, as mentioned above, where its unavoidable).

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:54 PM

Absolutely Oranges. I plan the lunches here at my work and VERY RARELY partake in them. The people I work with have watched me go from obese to fit. It was weird at first, but now they are all used to my eating habits. WHO CARES IF THEY THINK YOU ARE ANOREXIC. You know what you are doing for your health.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 17, 2011
at 06:29 PM

You seem to keep missing the point, Oranges. It is NEVER unavoidable. The choice to consume it is YOURS and no one elses. It may be uncomfortable or weird, it may suck a lot, but you don't have to eat anything you don't want to.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:42 PM

yes. 1) dont eat. 2) scrape off the sour cream/cheese. 3) dont eat the items that contain the sour cream and cheese. 4) again, keep your eyes on your own mat. im sorry if you dont like the answers youre getting, but you are not a victim here. no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to eat cheese and sour cream. you are choosing to.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:33 PM

So at a catered lunch I just *don't eat* even if I'm starving just because there's a dollop of sour cream or cheese mixed in that I realistically can't pick out? That's beyond uncomfortable, that makes people think you're anorexic or something.

9
2c3a4e438d71775f45e98d1334b4e8d4

(495)

on April 17, 2011
at 08:35 PM

I've seen what you're talking about, and WOW, the comments on this page are a really clear example of it. Non-lacto people DO fixate on dairy, sometimes to the point of being extremely condemning of it. And it can be really, really frustrating for the lacto-Paleos who feel like they are being repeatedly castigated about it every time they admit it.

(And, let's face it, it's probably no different from when Vegetarians do the same sort of thing to Paleos... or when Paleos do it to Vegans... or when the "Zero-carb Hezbollah" starts frothing at the mouth when someone mentions they (gasp!) ate a yam... etc. etc. etc.)

Dairy seems to be one of the more polarizing issues in the Paleosphere. It's especially difficult because there are not two, but three basic camps when it comes to dairy, and as has been mentioned before, since there's not necessarily a clear or standardized way to identify the different types of Paleo, this makes it more complicated to talk about, too. I'm going to invent some temporary labels to illustrate the point:

  • Anti-Lacto Paleo: No Dairy of any kind ever allowable.
  • Moderate-Lacto Paleo: Dairy fats (cream, ghee) are fine, and small amounts of aged cheeses are allowed, but overall, try to avoid the lactose.
  • Pro-Lacto Paleo: Dairy lovers who promote raw milk, yogurt, kefir, cheeses, etc.

(Of course, it's actually a whole spectrum, with many points between these three, but let's just roll with this generalization for a minute...)

The Anti-Lacto folks often don't distinguish between Moderate-Lacto and Pro-Lacto, which sometimes confuses the issue, because if you're doing the Moderate-Lacto thing, you kinda want to scream when the Anti-Lacto types are ripping you a new one about the dairy products you aren't even eating.

It even seems like there are a few Anti-Lacto folks who simply don't consider Moderate-Lacto or Pro-Lacto folks to be Paleo at all, but just lazy or delusional dabblers who can't seem to commit to doing things the Right Way, and who are doing harm to the Paleo movement by watering it down with their irresponsible liberal attitude. (This bit of hyperbole is leading to a point, please bear with me.)

I keep coming back to the comparison between diet/exercise attitude and religious attitude. In both, you see the same patterns of behaviors, identity crises, tolerance issues, conservative fundamentalism, flakey syncretic liberals, curious newbie dabblers and tourists, evangelists, lifestylers, squirrely and sometimes embarrassing media coverage, etc. It's kinda spooky. Case in point? Go back to the above and replace the terms: Anti-Lacto=Orthodox, Moderate-Lacto=Conservative, Pro-Lacto=Reform, Paleo=Jewish. (I could have picked any religion, really.)

We each have our beliefs about it, based on our research and experiences. Yes, there's written documentation out there, but it's confusing and contradictory, especially to the layman. Each of us is stuck trying to find the truth for ourselves, and what's right for us.

There will be fundamentalists. There will be scholars. There will be fringe loonies. And more than any of these, there will be a lot of reasonable, moderate folks who just quietly do their thing and don't join in the heated discussions. =) That's probably the important thing to keep in mind: for every two people debating whether The Best Way is such-and-such... there are probably 20 people reading it and not chiming in because they don't have a firm opinion one way or another, and who will keep doing things the way they have been... and another 50 people who glance at the topic and think, "Meh, I have better things to do than read an argument about THAT."

(tl;dr? Summary: Remember that the noisiest extremists are never the majority.)

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 17, 2011
at 10:45 PM

oh, I love your comparison to denominations in Judaism! so true :)

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:40 PM

I love your analogies. :)

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Great analogy! And a fine thing to remember.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 18, 2011
at 03:13 AM

I would argue for a 4th camp. There are those of us who have no ideological issue with dairy but have seen it effect weight loss in ourselves or others. Dairy is a classic issue for many with regard to weight loss. I don't know why that is (which bothers me) but I know that it is. I lost a boatload of fat using dairy heavily but hit a plateau and the ONLY think that would break it was giving up the dairy. I don't think it's fair to say that no one can eat dairy and lose weight but it is something worth consideration if one is struggling regardless of what has worked in the past.

9
A81081d9fcb772c226b5e86b7e417c0d

on April 17, 2011
at 12:31 PM

The primal way, or lacto-paleo is great, but if you do a little searching around MDA, you will see that Mark even gives some advice on dairy. He says to use the best kinds, as in raw, aged, fermented, etc (no highly processed cheeses) , and it should be used more as a condiment than a staple item in your diet. I think adding a sprinkle of goat cheese on a salad, a bit of heavy cream in coffee or tea, and cooking with butter should do no harm, but eating copious amounts of full fat dairy may stall weight loss, or promote gain. Again I think it also has a lot to do with the amount of weight you have to lose also. If it's the last 10 pounds, then you may have to watch or tweak a bit more than someone who is just jumping into the paleo lifestyle and has a lot to lose.

Just some food for thought on the matter, Bill (my other half) has been eating full fat greek yogurt for the past few weeks and it has helped him put on weight. We both work hard in the gym, and he needs a lot of calories. He was blessed with a wicked metabolism. If he doesn't eat enough he loses weight, especially with paleo (it's like a sick joke...)

I on the other hand will put cream in my organic decaf (which I do not have daily), because I love the flavor of coffee and it makes me happy, and I will use kerrygold butter for cooking sometimes. However I stick to coconut oil for the most part. I have seen no ill effects from this, but I consciously avoid other full fat dairy. Every once in a while we will use it for a recipe which I will try, but beyond that it's not part of my diet.

To each their own, and I think the best answer is to enjoy the journey and keep being aware of what your body tells you. The best part about this lifestyle is that it is indeed a lifestyle and you learn what works for you as you go. If you have a feeling that dairy might be stalling you, make some tweaks and try that out for a few weeks to see. You will get there, and try to enjoy the ride as you go. Being aware and intuitive about it all is so important, and something I try to practice daily. Your body will tell you what it needs, although it is easy to stress and over think things when you aren't seeing results, and you hear about others that seem to have it so easy with weight loss on paleo. You are doing a great job!

6
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:22 AM

Well, when I dropped dairy I lost another ten pounds, and got down into a healthy weight range for my height and frame. With dairy I'm in the 150s, and without I'm deep in the 140s. I don't think it's caloric (I eat plenty, and plenty of fat, too). My best (un)educated guess is that dairy packs a double wallop for some people: Insulin + inflammation.

Here's a little bit of info on dairy and insulin: http://www.heartscanblog.org/2011/03/insulin-secretagogue.html

The inflammation guess is based on anecdotes and the hunch that anything so many people can't tolerate (and/or are allergic to) probably creates some inflammation, too. I don't have any handy dairy/inflammation links, but here's a world map of lactose intolerance, just to give you an idea of how many adults don't/can't do the dairy thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_by_group

As far as people not helping you with "anything else" is concerned, what's included in that "else" besides weight loss? If it's anything to do with poor health, I can see why dairy would get the hairy eyeball. But if you're looking for help with, say, replacing your bike's inner tubes, then dairy's probably not the issue. :)

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:01 AM

but cream and butter are so good, and I have given up all carbohydrates, sugars, and beer..........don't tell me it's the dairy that's screwing up my weight loss !

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 17, 2011
at 08:21 PM

The thing is, that there might be nothing wrong. It might be that you eat all the right thing, in the correct proportions, you exercise enough etc. Maybe simply your body needs to get used to all new style, get the hormones in balance, figure out it's for longer and not starvation... It's not magic, our bodies are beautiful, complex systems. Try and see if you can go a month without any measurements and no checking of weight. i did it while I was doing Whole30 (I didn't complete it, but almost). It was nice to see a difference, that I might have not even noticed if I was checking every day!

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 17, 2011
at 11:15 AM

Peter at Hyperlipid has a nice rebuttal to the Dr. Davis post: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/butter-insulin-and-dr-davis.html I agree that SOME people should give up dairy in order to lose weight/clear up acne/lactose intolerance. And its worth trying to see if it makes a difference. But not necessary for many people.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:30 PM

I was supposed to be doing the Whole 30 but there are instances (at work, etc) where non-dairy alternatives just AREN'T available. WE had a catered lunch last week with tacos, so I ate the filling but not the shells, which included some cheese and sour cream. I will put half and half in my coffee from time to time, but prefer coconut milk. Things like that.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:06 AM

Ah. Well, I can't help with the exercise (I'm a slug), but regarding the plateau, if people are suggesting you try giving up dairy for a while, but you don't want to... I'm just a newbie here, but if "people fixate on" dairy, could be because they've got some experience with it. Just sayin'.

3edf46d729f17cfff798b66eaa1ecb02

(334)

on April 17, 2011
at 07:09 AM

ditto Rose. if you're plateauing, it probably means something needs tweaked. if you're asking others for help, inevitably someone is going to have advice that you don't like...doesn't mean it can't hurt just to try it anyway.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:35 AM

I'm just asking for help to hack a plateau, and I'm getting criticism on my weight training routine (I do a weight "class" 2x weekly as its the best I can do) and they're basically saying TOTALLY USELESS GO USE FREE WEIGHTS YOURSELF.

5
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 17, 2011
at 04:29 AM

Strict Paleo is not the only way to lose weight.

Both times I was on Atkins, I had cream and I ate cheese like a fiend and lost 20lbs. It wasn't dairy that stopped me. I even ate small amounts of grain on Atkins too. Losing weight had more to do with keeping at or below 20 grams of carbs per day. Plain and simple.

I think Paleo is a healthier diet, than Atkins. But it seems like worrying about losing weight may be counterproductive to actually losing it.

Sleep and wake refreshed. Enjoy eating well and healthily. Work on, but don't stress about, improving your diet and lifestyle. Make changes slowly and deliberately so you can be aware of what is working. (or not working) Be happier where you are, even if it's not all the way there.

4
4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:17 AM

I follow the primal blueprint which allows for dairy, and I am losing weight just fine. I cook with quality grassfed butter, use cheese in my eggs and heavy cream in my coffee. Maybe you should try posting some of your questions in the Marksdailyapple.com forums. The people there are very friendly and open to the fact that people have different versions of paleo/primal.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on April 17, 2011
at 05:17 AM

I understand the sentiment behind the replies telling the OP to "relax" and not worry about dairy. But here's the thing: Saying "Well, *I* ate X and Y and lost weight" doesn't help someone else who's also eating X and Y, but is stalling. Loads of people lose weight on standard low carb, but *I* stalled until I went zero carb. Just because Person A can eat dairy, or veggies, or whatever, and lose weight, doesn't mean Person B can. It sucks, but there it is.

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Yes I understand that what works for one may not for another. He was stating his difficulty getting answers because of people judging him for eating dairy. Just letting him know there are others out there, like me that eat it and point him in the direction of othersthat eat dairy that will answer his questions without bias

4
A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:45 AM

I think let's stop putting labels on everything...if dairy doesn't bother you, if you know that you can ingest it without issue and you feel good about it and can get it in it's most unprocessed state (don't I wish I were that lucky) then drink it, use it, and be happy. It just seems some people get so caught up on labels and trying to be gastronimcally perfect that a lot of life's joys are passed by. I do dairy, not every day, I enjoy it in my coffee (having some home made hot cocoa (cocoa, stevia and creme) right now..it's been a long dang day and it's comforting. I'll go through life trying to be as unprocessed as possible for the majority of time but there are some things in life that while may not be physically optimal, mentally they are :)

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:51 AM

I'm similar. I have an ounce or two in my coffee when I can't find coconut milk (work, or out and about). I'll have a slice of cheese now and then, but otherwise it isn't a big part of my diet.

2afe070b43de645b908b3cb1f4723811

(144)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:54 AM

Agreed. And 'dairy' covers a lot of things anyway. You should evaluate on a case-case basis, in terms of the animal (goat, sheep, mare, etc), preparation, nutrition and how it affects you. For instance, take a look at the nutritional profile of Brie - lots of B12, lots of good quality saturated fat, ~2:1 n6:n3 (and low overall), good amounts of selenium... what's not to like?

3
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on April 17, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I think there is a lot of obsession, simply because the studies are not clear, inconclusive, people have various experiences and it is the only (or seems to be) subject where paleos can get all militant and feel good about their camp/team. It's boring to preach to the choir... it feels good to be all radical and strong about something even among other paleos... it's not that much fun to be all almighty and nutritiously superior among your uneducated SADers at work... it's like adrenaline rush, people need more and more :)

You simply have to figure out by yourself if it's dairy that might be a problem. I cut out dairy completely for a month, and then reintroduced it. Even though I lost some weight both on dairy-free and with dairy, my stomach/guts felt happy and great, my skin broke out and I got bad acne, so I figured I have to go dairy-free except for once in a while heavy cream with my coffee, but rarely.

Try it, you won't find out here, people with eat each other alive first, before they get to some consensus on dairy :D

3
6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 02:32 AM

The "dairy is designed to fatten up their young" argument is ridiculous.

We're a totally different species than them. We work differently. Try eating a bunch of leaves, bark, grass, etc. and see whether you end up growing to 10 tons like an elephant. It won't work; you're setup is different.

We eat plenty of stuff that's not designed for us. The fish you eat isn't designed for you; it's designed to fuel a fish or something. We take advantage of all kinds of stuff, even stuff that doesn't want to be taken advantage of. They're not designed for us; we're designed for them.

That's not even to mention that there's been massive artificial selection pressure on cows to produce milk that works for us. So it's not even not designed for us. It actually really is designed for us. Massive artificial selection, and a massive appetite for their milk, what's that add up to? Oh yeah, their milk is designed for us too! (Not just their young!)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Nice............

B4ec9ce369e43ea83f06ee645169cee0

on April 17, 2011
at 02:42 AM

oh please get over yourself!! upvoted.

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Downvoted because I think it should be possible to express our opinions without profanity. Use it on your own time, please.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 03:23 AM

Nice edit. Upvoted.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 17, 2011
at 09:08 AM

anyway, what food is designed for us in the grand scheme of things?

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Did you hear about the cows they've genetically engineered to produce "human milk" as a formula replacement? SCARY!

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:20 AM

i cleaned it up a bit.

1
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on April 17, 2011
at 04:19 PM

Gluten is avoided because of what it does to the gut lining and the subsequent problems that causes, at least this is the conclusion from what I've read. Dairy has many more positive qualities that accompany the possible problematic issues with dairy- though it can be argued that many of those are because of gut permeability.

1
8f4ff12a53a98f3b5814cfe242de0daa

(1075)

on April 17, 2011
at 03:59 PM

I think diary is obsessed on because it is relatively close to gluten in terms of being tough to break down. Essentially, the logic for avoiding wheat is mostly the same. Casein is specifically avoided in a lot of the alt-medicine type situations (ie Casein-free gluten-free is a relatively common part of quakery autism treatment).

Although, considering how people that are of Northern Europeon descent have an odd mutation that lets them process lactose, and that was overwhelmingly selected for over a relatively short time period....

It just seems difficult to call it a blanket bad thing, as it is a unique regional adaptation that is part of 85% of the people in the region (according to the lactose tolerance by population info I've seen).

In terms of weight loss, adherence to any diet that does not include processed sugar seems to work for most people up to a certain point. For most people it takes a long time to put on a considerable amount of weight; not exactly a shock that it will not come off overnight.

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