1

votes

Weight-loss and butter/cream

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 29, 2010 at 10:04 PM

These two blog posts are what spiked my interest:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/butter-and-insulin.html and the response: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/butter-insulin-and-dr-davis.html

Taking into account these two different opinions, does anyone have any personal experiences with dairy stalling or effecting weight-loss in any way? Has anyone compared specifically the effect of milk and yogurt vs. cream and butter? Personally I can't tell just yet. I've recently added cream-top yogurt to my diet as a morning meal to replace berries to experiment with sucrose vs. lactose for weight-loss. And there are some interesting studies that claim the calcium in dairy can aid weight-loss (when studied the group that consumed high dairy excreted 10 pounds more fat in their faeces per year vs. the control) But here it's being suggested that dairy fat (perhaps even ghee if it is related to the type of fatty acid) might have an effect on insulin, which is interesting if it's true.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on September 01, 2010
at 11:18 PM

Oh dear Stancel, you have dared to question paleo dogma :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on August 03, 2010
at 08:11 AM

Eva: An easy way to avoid overconsumption of coconut fat (credited by Robb Wolf I believe) is to buy coconuts and not coconut milk/cream. Cracking is not problem for me but cleaning out the meat is a bitch and when I finish I have absolutely NO desire to crack another one despite having only maybe a third of the amount of milk found in a can. spencer: Thank god :D I though I was the only one with the Mascarpone addiction :D

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 02, 2010
at 06:37 PM

Ikco: Mascarpone is friggin' crack cocaine! Everytime I buy a pack (no more), it's gone the moment I open it. Eva: Definitely. Not just fat though, I'd imagine, but most foods in general. Plus they have to keep/ration their food. Plus, I'm pretty sure your fellow tribesmen wouldn't appreciate it if you single-handedly chowed down a large portion of the latest offering.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 04:12 AM

For whatever reason, I have never heard of anyone on lowcarb or paleo who had a problem with butter as a staller. Your idea makes a certain kind of logical sense, but it also goes against one of the basic paleo ideas that eating healthy will result in the body naturally regulating its own calorie intake via the old fashioned method of satiation instead of calorie counting. Regulating the body's cravings via healthy food is far more effective than calorie counting. All that being said, I don't think your opinion was really worthy of quite such a harsh trashing! ;-P

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:59 AM

I suspect in ancient times, fat was not quite so easy to come by. How much fat does wild game have? How many coconuts do you need to crack to get a whole can of coconut milk? Even the innuits have times when fat is scarce and they have to worry about 'rabbit fever' from lack of fat. WIth all of our modern conveniences, it's easy to chug down hundreds of calories in seconds, faster then the satiation response has time to kick in. So chugging fat for the sake of chugging fat might not work perfectly for everyone, especially if you are trying to lose weight.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:50 AM

Yeah, I think normally, if you eat something a few times, your body naturally desires something new which will contain different nutrients. But for addictions, you start to crave the same exact thing over and over and that is IMO not natural.

485bcefe7f1f7a6df1a293a826bf6137

(2191)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:39 AM

Butter is very nutritious. I use several pats on my vegetables and continue to lose weight without any problems. My understanding is that it contains medium chain triglycerides which are burned quickly and actually speed up metabolism.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on July 30, 2010
at 06:05 PM

A similiar situation with the body fat gain. I was getting about 2k of calories just from cream, mascarpone (cream cheese) and mozzarella.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on July 30, 2010
at 06:01 PM

I agree that -6 (at this writing) is a bit extreme; I've seen far worse posts that did not reach -6; +1 here.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:32 PM

You're lucky! I recently tried adding dairy, in the form of yoghurt, back into my life and I began to crave and gain. I like your rule of thumb about being able to finish something without a subsequent special urge. That's consistent with my experience.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:26 PM

Actually, Stancel, lots of people can lose weight with a very high calorie diet if those calories are from fat, and not carbs. Adding fat can also increase the feeling and duration of satiety. Butter is very nutritious both in terms of essential fats and micronutrients.

95ab15c8ef50ff0daf87ccbdd52cd3b8

(2384)

on July 30, 2010
at 01:49 PM

First of all, butter and margarine are very different things. But more to the point, I suspect you're being downvoted because you're arguing from a calorie-counting perspective, which this community does not tend to embrace (to put it mildly).

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 01:23 PM

I have no problem with animal (saturated) fat. I embrace it. I think there is always the tendency to over-do the butter though. You can lose weight on moderate amounts of butter like you can lose weight on anything. My point is, for many, cutting out butter/margarine is helpful. Do I need to be downvoted so much for that simple point?

95ab15c8ef50ff0daf87ccbdd52cd3b8

(2384)

on July 30, 2010
at 12:50 PM

Stancel, your understanding of the weight loss process needs an update. This community is full of people who permanently lost lots of weight at a rate that would astound many mainstream "experts" -- and they did it while eating butter and failing to count calories. The truth is that 2000 calories' worth of cookies and 2000 calories' worth of bacon and eggs have very different effects on the body. Read Gary Taubes and get up to speed.

D5db204527668aa712504995c0f8f96f

(551)

on July 30, 2010
at 12:04 PM

It's not like 2-3 tablespoon of butter will make or break your diet. What if I told you my father lost 60lbs and has been eating 3000-3500 all along? It's such a small portion of the diet that you should not focus on it (focus on bigger items instead such as the quality of your food, etc.)

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 08:07 AM

Telling people to add butter to their food (as the WAPF does) is not sound weight loss advice. It isn't unhealthy to eat butter, but if you are trying to lose weight, it is good to avoid butter and other high-calorie spreads. Weight loss is definitely about calories. Contrary to what the WAPF says, butter is one of the least nutritious foods. And with lower amounts of calories, nutrition is extremely important.

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 07:36 AM

Calories in, calories out, is not true of health. But people on both low-fat and low-carb diets can lose weight. It is not because of the content of their diet, but because of a calorie deficit. The ability to string together complex words does not impress me. And I never said that humans were "opaque objects" or "bomb calorimeters".

08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on July 30, 2010
at 02:57 AM

A black box is an object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings. Human beings on the other hand employ a complex interaction of hormonal chemicals to metabolize specific macro nutrients. In summary: Humans are not opaque objects or bomb calorimeters... Calories in does not equal calories out. Learn it, know it, live it.

08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on July 30, 2010
at 02:55 AM

A black box is an object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings. Human beings employ a complex interaction of hormonal chemicals to metabolize macro nutrients. In summary: Humans are not opaque objects or bomb calorimeters... Calories in does not equal calories out. Learn it, know it, live it.

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:46 AM

Consider removing the carbs? Clarify the butter and drink heavy whipping cream.

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6 Answers

4
D5db204527668aa712504995c0f8f96f

(551)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:10 AM

I doubt that adding butter to your food is of concern. There is more to a successful weight loss than calorie counting.

Full fat cream and butter has not stalled my progress in the gym and I'm leaner than I have ever been. If you tolerate dairy and give it a small role in your diet (not a staple food), I think you will be just fine. You will have to experiment and see for yourself.

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 08:07 AM

Telling people to add butter to their food (as the WAPF does) is not sound weight loss advice. It isn't unhealthy to eat butter, but if you are trying to lose weight, it is good to avoid butter and other high-calorie spreads. Weight loss is definitely about calories. Contrary to what the WAPF says, butter is one of the least nutritious foods. And with lower amounts of calories, nutrition is extremely important.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:26 PM

Actually, Stancel, lots of people can lose weight with a very high calorie diet if those calories are from fat, and not carbs. Adding fat can also increase the feeling and duration of satiety. Butter is very nutritious both in terms of essential fats and micronutrients.

D5db204527668aa712504995c0f8f96f

(551)

on July 30, 2010
at 12:04 PM

It's not like 2-3 tablespoon of butter will make or break your diet. What if I told you my father lost 60lbs and has been eating 3000-3500 all along? It's such a small portion of the diet that you should not focus on it (focus on bigger items instead such as the quality of your food, etc.)

3
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 30, 2010
at 04:21 AM

Low carb ice cream is definitely a staller for me and also tends to stimulate cravings for more of itself. Cheese and butter are definitely NOT stallers for me. No probs with them. Heavy cream might be, not sure yet. I mostly use cream in sauces so it's not a thing were I consume it all the time. Seems that any diary that has been worked on by live cultures is fine for me. PLus butter seems fine as well. I am suspicious of things that create cravings for more of the same every day. I can drink a coconut milk smoothie with fruit tonight and enjoy it, but not really crave it tomorrow. But if I did the same with low carb icecream and fruit, then the next day, I would crave more. There is a definite difference in how my body reacts to one vs the other. The one that makes for cravings also makes for stalled weight loss. One the flip side, doesn't seem it actually adds too much weight either, must makes me stay the same instead of lose. Might be some individual variation on this one.

I have heard some say that excessive nut intake is also a staller for some and another one is cheese. For me, it seems anything I can eat twice in a row but then run out and have no special urge on the 3rd day to go to the store and buy more, is a safe thing for me to eat.
-Eva

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on July 30, 2010
at 02:32 PM

You're lucky! I recently tried adding dairy, in the form of yoghurt, back into my life and I began to crave and gain. I like your rule of thumb about being able to finish something without a subsequent special urge. That's consistent with my experience.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:50 AM

Yeah, I think normally, if you eat something a few times, your body naturally desires something new which will contain different nutrients. But for addictions, you start to crave the same exact thing over and over and that is IMO not natural.

1
5a562e1bae804ca551bc99eaf3cca0af

on May 06, 2012
at 04:28 AM

Butter, cream and full fat milk is very good for you, and can assist in weight loss. You need fats to help with food digestion and non of this 'skim' nonsense! Full fat is the only way to go. Get the book Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon or 'A Forefold Path to Healing', it is explained very well in there... I have lost 5 kilos by adding butter, cream, coconut oil and full cream milk back into my diet. You just need to make sure you are not wrecking your progress by adding preservatives, hydrogenated oils, flavours, colours and other chemicals. Going organic will also help. Good luck.

0
D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

on September 01, 2010
at 11:05 PM

ETA:. I still eat butter, HWC, and ghee, and as long as I don't eat too much of it, I haven't noticed these causing problems.

I make my own mascarpone using heavy cream and fresh lemon juice. It tastes better than store-bought and costs much less, and also make yoghurt with HWC and added unsweetened, gelatin granules.

Some may not be able to tolerate anything but butter or clarified butter. There is good info on food intolerances here:

http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/content/elimination-diet.aspx

Peter Dobromylskyj at Hyperlipid explains a great deal about the use of high fat dairy.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

Dr. Kurt Harris, as well, explains much at Panu:

http://www.paleonu.com/

Hope this helps a bit.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 30, 2010
at 09:57 AM

I don't think I would say that dairy fat raises insulin based on that study, considering they ate about 30g of pasta per m^2 of body area (~45-50g for normal people), a slice of bread + a cup of skim yogurt..

That said, when I first went paleo (VLC dairy-paleo), I ate A LOT of butter and cream and I did gain a bit of body fat (lost some ab definition).

I've since backed down and am only using the stuff reasonably, i.e. just enough butter for sauteing and not randomly drinking cream just for the sake of eating fat. I've since started to lean out again, while keeping the same background diet, sans fat fortification, and more carbs post-workout. (which occasionally includes milk and yogurt) Mind you, I've also upped my activity level significantly, so I'm probably not the best example.

I think as long as you don't go crazy gobbling down sticks of butter and chugging pints of cream, while eating a reasonable amount of food, you should be fine. Give the dairy a shot. If you stall, eliminate it and see if it makes a difference.

As for that calcium study, fat excretion through faeces doesn't really tell you much about the actual change in fat mass, does it..

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 02, 2010
at 06:37 PM

Ikco: Mascarpone is friggin' crack cocaine! Everytime I buy a pack (no more), it's gone the moment I open it. Eva: Definitely. Not just fat though, I'd imagine, but most foods in general. Plus they have to keep/ration their food. Plus, I'm pretty sure your fellow tribesmen wouldn't appreciate it if you single-handedly chowed down a large portion of the latest offering.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on August 03, 2010
at 08:11 AM

Eva: An easy way to avoid overconsumption of coconut fat (credited by Robb Wolf I believe) is to buy coconuts and not coconut milk/cream. Cracking is not problem for me but cleaning out the meat is a bitch and when I finish I have absolutely NO desire to crack another one despite having only maybe a third of the amount of milk found in a can. spencer: Thank god :D I though I was the only one with the Mascarpone addiction :D

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on July 30, 2010
at 06:05 PM

A similiar situation with the body fat gain. I was getting about 2k of calories just from cream, mascarpone (cream cheese) and mozzarella.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:59 AM

I suspect in ancient times, fat was not quite so easy to come by. How much fat does wild game have? How many coconuts do you need to crack to get a whole can of coconut milk? Even the innuits have times when fat is scarce and they have to worry about 'rabbit fever' from lack of fat. WIth all of our modern conveniences, it's easy to chug down hundreds of calories in seconds, faster then the satiation response has time to kick in. So chugging fat for the sake of chugging fat might not work perfectly for everyone, especially if you are trying to lose weight.

-10
8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 29, 2010
at 11:29 PM

Butter is high in calories. While I do not endorse low-fat diets, I do not think that it is easy to track your calories when you are adding butter to your food. Yes, you can meticulously measure it, but that is difficult.

95ab15c8ef50ff0daf87ccbdd52cd3b8

(2384)

on July 30, 2010
at 12:50 PM

Stancel, your understanding of the weight loss process needs an update. This community is full of people who permanently lost lots of weight at a rate that would astound many mainstream "experts" -- and they did it while eating butter and failing to count calories. The truth is that 2000 calories' worth of cookies and 2000 calories' worth of bacon and eggs have very different effects on the body. Read Gary Taubes and get up to speed.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on July 30, 2010
at 06:01 PM

I agree that -6 (at this writing) is a bit extreme; I've seen far worse posts that did not reach -6; +1 here.

485bcefe7f1f7a6df1a293a826bf6137

(2191)

on July 31, 2010
at 03:39 AM

Butter is very nutritious. I use several pats on my vegetables and continue to lose weight without any problems. My understanding is that it contains medium chain triglycerides which are burned quickly and actually speed up metabolism.

95ab15c8ef50ff0daf87ccbdd52cd3b8

(2384)

on July 30, 2010
at 01:49 PM

First of all, butter and margarine are very different things. But more to the point, I suspect you're being downvoted because you're arguing from a calorie-counting perspective, which this community does not tend to embrace (to put it mildly).

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 07:36 AM

Calories in, calories out, is not true of health. But people on both low-fat and low-carb diets can lose weight. It is not because of the content of their diet, but because of a calorie deficit. The ability to string together complex words does not impress me. And I never said that humans were "opaque objects" or "bomb calorimeters".

8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on July 30, 2010
at 01:23 PM

I have no problem with animal (saturated) fat. I embrace it. I think there is always the tendency to over-do the butter though. You can lose weight on moderate amounts of butter like you can lose weight on anything. My point is, for many, cutting out butter/margarine is helpful. Do I need to be downvoted so much for that simple point?

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 31, 2010
at 04:12 AM

For whatever reason, I have never heard of anyone on lowcarb or paleo who had a problem with butter as a staller. Your idea makes a certain kind of logical sense, but it also goes against one of the basic paleo ideas that eating healthy will result in the body naturally regulating its own calorie intake via the old fashioned method of satiation instead of calorie counting. Regulating the body's cravings via healthy food is far more effective than calorie counting. All that being said, I don't think your opinion was really worthy of quite such a harsh trashing! ;-P

08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on July 30, 2010
at 02:57 AM

A black box is an object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings. Human beings on the other hand employ a complex interaction of hormonal chemicals to metabolize specific macro nutrients. In summary: Humans are not opaque objects or bomb calorimeters... Calories in does not equal calories out. Learn it, know it, live it.

08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on July 30, 2010
at 02:55 AM

A black box is an object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings. Human beings employ a complex interaction of hormonal chemicals to metabolize macro nutrients. In summary: Humans are not opaque objects or bomb calorimeters... Calories in does not equal calories out. Learn it, know it, live it.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on September 01, 2010
at 11:18 PM

Oh dear Stancel, you have dared to question paleo dogma :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

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