12

votes

Paleo & Ladies' Bodies

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 28, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Paleo Women.

I came across a few sites that mention that women who are paleo are often not even close to being as lean as Paleo men.

Thoughts? Comments? Tips? Tricks?

A3c56c85290f748410a6f340ddd552b3

(321)

on December 02, 2012
at 03:51 PM

Nice handle, too. :-)

Ed2157b3a5560af0f2c507c8fc4f5a2a

(210)

on April 19, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Just putting it out there... the women on Playboy are almost as thin and have just as low bodyfat % most of the time as the girls on the cover of cosmo. Biggest difference? Breast Implants & Butt Implants. End rant.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on April 11, 2012
at 12:35 AM

Just caught this response - Jenny, I can't imagine how awful that must have felt! I probably have a dozen related anecdotes regarding accusatory doctors or nurses, comments about being "a string bean" that people assume are complimentary...I have filled out with muscle and a little bit more healthy bodyfat since then, but it was painful to hear those things as a teenager wishing for some curves to feel "normal."

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 10, 2012
at 10:09 AM

And I don't think it's at all ridiculous to think that women should just relax and be healthy and bam they get hot. Almost every paleo woman I've met looked very healthy and attractive (to me). I'm sure it didn't happen over night, but to think that it's "unattainable for many women" is a pretty big blanket statement. I would suggest it's very much the opposite, and most women are much hotter than their self-consciousness will allow them to admit. Especially when living paleo

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 10, 2012
at 10:05 AM

Kim Kardashian is definitely a very airbrushed genetic outlier, once again on the cover of most grocery isle magazine's geared towards women. I hardly think she counts, but even if she does she's a MUCH healthier looking (weight wise) woman than most cosmo models. And while you say "ew" to playboy, it is just helpful in the explanation here. The question brought forth is about weight and body image. Your personal qualms about looking at a naked women aside, it was just a place to prove that guys don't usually like super thin women.

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on April 10, 2012
at 08:57 AM

Thanks Derek, but really? For many, many women, Playboy, in addition to, you know, ew, is just as much as an "impossible media image" as a high fashion show. Its really no better to promote the Playboy image than the fashion model image. Its just as unattainable for many women, and I think its pretty ridiculous for people to blather about how women should just relax, be healthy and bam, look like Kim Kardashian.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on April 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

+1 for the tea geekery. :-)

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on April 08, 2012
at 04:31 PM

Well, when have you ever known Western Societies standards of ANYTHING to be on-the-mark? 150 years ago, and for probably five-hundred years prior to that, an obese woman was the pinnacle of affluence and considered sexy. It's unobtainium that Western Society chases, not "healthy" or "proper".

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 07, 2012
at 10:50 PM

You're very welcome. I try to look at most everything in a practical/open mindset, and will hopefully keep it up. I hope it helped.

Ef4ef7ba9488a8d292b458a26fab68bc

on April 07, 2012
at 07:03 PM

Derek, you are my hero of the day ;) Thank you for a honest view into a men's mind.

D3495cd9e3e7173f24e1dbee40774573

on April 06, 2012
at 09:01 PM

Ha yeh, there is a lot of variation. I lose my period at 115lbs (5'4) but my sister has been 105lb and still menstruated. I have always had more hormone problems, maybe I just have a poorer tolerance to stressful situations. I'm sure my body fat when I'm amenorrheic is higher a good bit higher than 22%. I also thought I was too fat. Now I have seen sense and I'd rather have a bigger bum than I'd like and have my health to boot:)

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:24 PM

downvoted for an appallingly disgusting post.

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:47 AM

@ Jen - "childish" vs "youthful" - sure there is a subtle difference, but... hmmm... semantically "youthful" allows for some degree of "maturity" - which is a big no-no; japanese women may complain about such a trait of the society they live in, but in a hindsight that benefits them pretty much, allowing them to remain "youthful" way into their 40-s (perhaps, by virtue of calorie restriction - who knows)

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:40 AM

@ Cindy: i, actually, encourage all women to objectify men - go for it! - if a guy doesn't have abs, has no waist - shoulders ratio to speak of, ditch them! (unless they have tons of cash - in that case being fat and ugly doesn't matter); it may seem "disgusting & pedophiliac" to you, but not so to most men (they just tend not to voice their opinions publicly for fear of being labeled "disgusting pedophiles"), including western men (that's why so many of them marry japanese women, or if they can't don't bother with women in-flesh, and some cute anime character to adore instead)

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:43 AM

Further, objectification is bad because it dehumanizes. It suggests that self worth can be determined by certain qualities or physical characteristics. It's interesting you feel a woman is only a woman if you are physically attracted to her. I'll let you in on a secret, women in general care for themselves and take pride in their appearance. Their idea of physical beauty my simply differ from your own. Beauty is also enhanced by the way someone carries themselves, their ethics and values- it is much more than skin deep.

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:36 AM

Igel I have some very good female friends in Japan who live with this societal pressure you speak of. Believe me when I report that they are not pleased with this and think very little of the men who propagate these ideas. Just because these ideas are culturally acceptable doesn't mean they should be accepted. I think perhaps there is some confusion when you say you like your women to look childish- I suspect you mean youthful, at their reproductive prime.

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:32 AM

igel, I have some very good friends in Japan who live with this societal pressure you speak of, and believe me they are not pleased about it and think very little of the men who propagate these ideas. Just because they are culturally acceptable doesn't mean they should be accepted.

Cdbfa5e332dc69db6505f803bd2df63a

(90)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:39 AM

igel - I bet you are glad women don't objectify men as you do. The idea of women looking 'childish' is plain disgusting & pedophiliac. A gal can be as pretty as a picture & still be incapable of joy, of sensuality and capacity for orgasmic sex. But, I've got a feeling you don't care about the inner reality of women.

C513f1dba19e01bbd7e0f4f12b243a97

(670)

on April 01, 2012
at 08:30 PM

Yay, body policing on Paleohacks!

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 31, 2012
at 02:42 AM

@HA since when? why objectifying is bad, i don't understand: i do objectify, and so what? the point is if a woman has less awesome physique than the one on the photo i posted, then she is not considered a woman - a human being, person - alright, but not a member of the opposite sex for me - you, americans, are too much into feminism, that you don't care about appearance, and are doomed by so called 'fat acceptance' - in japan, women are under constant societal pressure to look good, to look a little bit childish - because most men like it, and i like it too

0266737ea1782946902fd3f8e60fa0b9

(2504)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:06 PM

isn't the point of this post to AVOID objectifying women's bodies?

06bf7b92d77f1ac1d8e3dc9d539d8254

(1649)

on March 30, 2012
at 05:15 PM

not sure i understand the point you are trying to make with this photo?

1dcfcebc5f36408d121f124a78292d42

(1295)

on March 30, 2012
at 03:24 PM

I think one of the major sources of struggle is that fact that many women's "factory settings" are not in alignment with western society's standards of attractiveness. Commence decades of fighting with your body over those "last 10 lbs." It sucks when I think about the fact that I got way more attention from men when I was on a starvation diet and 15 lb thinner. It really messes with your head. I want to "own" my curves and be proud of my fertile body, but society doesn't seem to be on the same page, and I'm sick of getting passed over or rejected.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:44 AM

Maybe you could surprise your friend with a congratulations feast when she has finished with this goal, and invite her back to the world of the nourished. I wish her luck. Damn, I wish I could afford a billboard! I think even more than this, I'd just like to plaster the world with images of real women in swimsuits from the days before plastic surgery. Maybe someday when I have that little pastoral farm you can barely see from the freeway I'll paint this in giant letters so it can be seen from passers by much like the bible quotes and political rantings that dot the hillsides on road trips.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:33 AM

During my doula training there were a number of older women in the class, many hadn't nursed a baby in decades, and holding a crying infant actually brought about the tingly feeling of a milk letdown reflex in two of them.

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:17 AM

one can always tell even if the object is clothed: [IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/9t0t95.jpg[/IMG]

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:16 AM

one can always tell even if the object is clothed: ![alt text][1] [1]: http://i41.tinypic.com/9t0t95.jpg

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:07 AM

How do we know? Perhaps a side by side photo? J/k

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 29, 2012
at 02:12 PM

yeah, i'm more familiar with the male examples but I think this is true across genders. Go further back into history, though, and there is less variation for both.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 29, 2012
at 06:02 AM

HA, an interesting fact is that grandmothers are important for infant survival. Females create breastmilk out of stored fat (apparently particularly thigh fat). If the mother dies or loses her milk, even grandmothers can lactate. Lactation is governed by two pituitary hormones: prolactin and oxytocin. So even if you're older, an experienced woman can induce some lactation - the ability for older, mature moms/grandmas to do this is optimal to infant survival in harsh conditions. We monkeys are social critters who evolved to support our tribe - grandmas are a great invention for us here.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 29, 2012
at 03:04 AM

I've read some stuff indicating that it can provide a bit of a buffer in old age to and give us something to draw on as our digestive abilities decline, but then there are the KRON theorists too. I suspect it is very individualized and neither theory is definitive.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 29, 2012
at 03:04 AM

We still need estrogen for good overall health. Estrogen is produced in fatty tissue, so even though the uterus & ovaries stop producing it, there is a supply available. The more fat you have, the more estrogen you have.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 29, 2012
at 03:01 AM

In Why Women Need Fat they explain it helps protect against infection and bone fractures.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 01:26 AM

This is always under appreciated, @Blosson1, because everyone's like "oh, look at all your problems! I'm small! Boo-hoo!" which really is damaging and demeaning. I have a friend who recently admitted to being TERRIFIED that she never really went through puberty because she doesn't really have any breasts and is super tiny. Even though she had her period and was very healthy, she was completely convinced she would never be able to have children or even attract a partner. Took a lot of years of maturing and learning for her to get intimate with anyone! And I don't think that's a rare example.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Man, further proof of body-diversity: I had 1% lower body fat than her and did not look anything like that! We all be holding our weight and muscles in different places!! I had, like, two abs, and my arms/shoulders were ginormous.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on March 28, 2012
at 11:58 PM

Yes! This is what I was driving at in my comment to the original question. I'm an ecto - it took depression, being almost totally sedentary, and eating crap from my university's express cafe every day to put on 10#. Over two years. However, I've always had a regular menstrual cycle, and it would be nuts for me to start thinking "oh, I'm not curvy enough - I'm so sadly not reproductively-fit looking - the paleo horror - I must gain fat!"...as much as it would be equally nuts for a natural mesomorph with healthy markers to try to do the opposite.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 11:32 PM

Yeah, I am textbook-mesomorph (that photo looks like a cartoon version of me), but being muscular with a little bit of stocky puts me well into the overweight range from my height, and leans sharply towards obese when I focus on weight lifting. Which is BS. Nobody is the same, and just taking a stroll down the street will tell you that. Ask my 50 yrold "obese" mom who still plays field hockey, mountain climbs every day, and runs marathons. Lesson: your body, no matter how different it looks from your neighbor, will always possess the ability to be healthy.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on March 28, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Love this! I am an ectomorph for sure.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 28, 2012
at 10:19 PM

YES! Exactly! I'm ecto with a pinch of meso but it took loads of tweaking to get that bit of meso to come out. When I started Paleo.. then CrossFit + lifting, I began to understand more about how my body, now with an actual physical name!, worked - my metabolism, and gaining weight. Focusing on calories - I eat alot, taking rests, and easy on cardio. That's when I started making gains. I'm definitely lean still but nicely muscled and womanly. Never should we be compared - it will never be apples to apples.. every body is different.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 10:19 PM

GREAT point. One of the reasons the BMI chart is the bane of my existence- there are fundamentally different body types, assigned to you by genetics, and none of them are inherently "better" or "worse" than the others. Just because you're an A-cup with no hips doesn't mean that you are some non-fertile, unhealthy waif, just like having a some padding or voluptuousness does not make you a lazy, overweight lump. You gotta be real with yourself on what your body type is, or you risk being unrealistic and sorely disappointed.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on March 28, 2012
at 09:36 PM

Meh. I think it's just that people have different body types. I would have to work HARD (and by work, I mean eat the worst of SAD, become totally sedentary, and drive my cortisol through the roof) to gain 10 pounds. I'm almost always around 19% and I have a normal cycle. If a woman's set point is at 25% body fat or 18% and she's got a normal cycle and other markers of health, then who cares? Regardless, women who are "as lean as [lean] Paleo men" are just not going to line up with those healthy parameters. Most of the men with visible, cut abs are going to be sub-12%, easily.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 08:38 PM

Point* not poor

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 08:37 PM

It's a bell curve with abnormalities (PCOS rates for example is higher in higher body fat women) at both ends and high amounts of variance there too.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 08:35 PM

Jenny J , I assure you, I completely agree. I was making a poor that is being misinterpreted. I am a huge advocate for positive body images towards women...

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 08:32 PM

I am not saying that getting as lean as a man is healthy for her. Trust me. I am only inquiring about her goals, as to advise with more information. My only point was to get more info from the individual rather than providing a simple stock answer of "we need fat" of course we do...

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:55 PM

@Paleo4ever , perhaps telling MenaceDenis that she can get as lean as a man and here's steps A,B, and C is not healthy because it is generally an unrealistic goal for 98% of women, unless she is willing to sacrifice a certain portion of metabolic, bone, and YES reproductive health. Do you think that erectile dysfunction is a sign of ill health in men? Do you care whether or not that man is thinking of creating a child anytime soon? No, it is an important marker of health, and should be treated as such regardless of your reproductive present/future.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:52 PM

And it's not just reproductive health that suffers- bone and metabolic health will be affected by a lack of fat reserves, and this is specific to women. Being healthy doesn't mean that you are currently or planning on being heterosexual, pregnant, or lactating, it just means being your optimal self, which for ladies is going include a heftier portion of fat than our male counterparts.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:50 PM

Sorry, I downvoted, because saying that we tell women that it's okay and healthy to have a reserve of fat for overall health "way too often" throws this out of perspective- women get told all the time that it is ALWAYS BETTER to be very lean, and that they should work on erasing all evidence of our biological differences, or any children we've possibly had. I think our message is way less extreme, and something that women hardly EVER hear- that it is OK and healthy to have a fat reserve to maintain proper health.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:49 PM

I think it is also important to differentiate between women "who maintain" a low BMI through exercise and severe calorie restriction and people who are naturally ectomorphs but eat well, which I think accounts for the fairly wide variety of minimum bodyfat percentages in regards to maintaining fertility.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:47 PM

I really depends on the person. I lost my period when I was 18% body fat, gained it back as soon as I hit 20%. I know girls that have lost their periods at lower than that, and even a few girls who lost it higher (on fellow rower lost her's below 23%, she usually didn't have one). If anyone says "it won't stop your period" they aren't telling truth- it doesn't stop THEIR period, and they don't know anything about your period.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:19 PM

It's worth pointing out here that research on the Female Athlete Triad indicates long term health problems (particularly around bone health & stress fractures) for women who maintain a very lean body... totally aside from any reproductive consequences.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 07:17 PM

Some people lose their period at that low, others don't. It depends on the woman. I figure...why take that risk if I've worked so hard to restore my cycles? Not worth it to me.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:17 PM

Breeding or not...what's good for the gonads is good for the girl. I don't think you can selectively choose to harm part of your health, and expect the rest of it to still be tip top. Nature is kind of a bitch too, you can work all day trying to get rid of your hiney, and voila, fat starts to migrate from your brain and bone marrow right back down to your behind, then you are depressed, you develop osteoporosis, and the pants you were hoping to fit into still don't zip...which I think judging from the plethora of boniva and antidepressant ads is the plight of modern women in a nutshell.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Breeding or not...what's good for the gonads is good for the girl. I don't think you can selectively choose to harm part of your health, and expect the rest of it to still be tip top. Nature is kind of a bitch too, you can work all day trying to get rid of your hiney, and voila, fat starts to migrate from your brain and bone marrow right back down to your behind, then you are depressed, you develop osteoporosis, and the pants you were hoping to fit into still don't zip...which I think judging from the plethora of boniva and antidepressant ads the plight of modern women in a nutshell.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 06:31 PM

I'm not having babies any time soon, but the fact is these systems in my body that are responsible for trying to make me an evolutionary-winning baby machine are trying to keep me as healthy as possible. I don't have to let them know I'm using that health to see the world or do whatever women are doing these days, I just have to acknowledge them and keep them in working order to support my own well-being.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:26 PM

Absolutely i agree. I just think it is important to take everyone's individual physical goals into consideration and not judge if someone were to make the choice to be leaner or lower body fat for their own goals..whether that be competing or something else.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:26 PM

...for example, if a man's body fat % was tied to his sexual function, such that when he got too low, he was unable to have erections or ejaculate, would you just say "well maybe looking muscular is more impotant to him than having a sex life?" It's about looking to Mother Nature to tell us where our bodies should be, not a photoshopped image of a starving model in a fashion mag.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:21 PM

No one is saying that all women want to have babies. But if a woman's bodyfat is so low that she can't do what her body is DESIGNED BY NATURE to do, that is to menstruate, get pregnant and bear children, then don't you see it's not natural or healthy for her to be that low? Regardless of whether she actually wants children?

Ebcbbdcb8b727e69e06eaa102d49a84c

(1804)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:12 PM

Saw this article earlier today. Loved it. :)

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:07 PM

So, just to clarify, is it a women's ultimate physique, the be-all end -all, when a women achieves a physical state of healthy reproduction? Whatever that may look like, that is the goal?

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:51 PM

Sorry Melissa -I had to link to your article. It was awesome!!

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 28, 2012
at 05:50 PM

Whether a woman chooses to reproduce or not is beside the point entirely. Since women are designed to reproduce, our bodies have evolved to optimize anything that will contribute to healthy offspring. That is our nature, and we are therefore at our healthiest when we don't try to fight nature.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:48 PM

Menace..perhaps someone should ask you, what are your goals with regards to getting lean? and not just say "fat is for reproduction.."

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 28, 2012
at 05:39 PM

Yes JJ! We need to spread that word!

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:01 PM

I'm confused, why would women want to be as lean as men? Women's bodies naturally retain more fat mass for the sake of reproduction.

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17 Answers

26
6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 09:58 PM

paleo-&-ladies'-bodies

Let's not make the mistake of comparing apples to oranges or pears or whatever as if they are the same. Trying to force one bodytype into the mold of another is where I think we get into trouble.

Ectomorphs and mesomorphs can sometimes couch potato their way into looking like an endomorph (but sometimes not), and endomorphs or mesomorphs, can sometimes starve themselves to look like ectomorphs (but again sometimes not).

Given good nutrition, enough but not too much exercise, and freedom from major health issues people will drift towards what is a healthy weight for their type and there is quite a bit of variety in body fat between the types.

paleo-&-ladies'-bodies

Glamorous bathing beauties from days of yore. I see a fair amount of variety here. I think images like these are important for women to see.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on March 28, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Love this! I am an ectomorph for sure.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on March 28, 2012
at 11:58 PM

Yes! This is what I was driving at in my comment to the original question. I'm an ecto - it took depression, being almost totally sedentary, and eating crap from my university's express cafe every day to put on 10#. Over two years. However, I've always had a regular menstrual cycle, and it would be nuts for me to start thinking "oh, I'm not curvy enough - I'm so sadly not reproductively-fit looking - the paleo horror - I must gain fat!"...as much as it would be equally nuts for a natural mesomorph with healthy markers to try to do the opposite.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 28, 2012
at 10:19 PM

YES! Exactly! I'm ecto with a pinch of meso but it took loads of tweaking to get that bit of meso to come out. When I started Paleo.. then CrossFit + lifting, I began to understand more about how my body, now with an actual physical name!, worked - my metabolism, and gaining weight. Focusing on calories - I eat alot, taking rests, and easy on cardio. That's when I started making gains. I'm definitely lean still but nicely muscled and womanly. Never should we be compared - it will never be apples to apples.. every body is different.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 11:32 PM

Yeah, I am textbook-mesomorph (that photo looks like a cartoon version of me), but being muscular with a little bit of stocky puts me well into the overweight range from my height, and leans sharply towards obese when I focus on weight lifting. Which is BS. Nobody is the same, and just taking a stroll down the street will tell you that. Ask my 50 yrold "obese" mom who still plays field hockey, mountain climbs every day, and runs marathons. Lesson: your body, no matter how different it looks from your neighbor, will always possess the ability to be healthy.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 10:19 PM

GREAT point. One of the reasons the BMI chart is the bane of my existence- there are fundamentally different body types, assigned to you by genetics, and none of them are inherently "better" or "worse" than the others. Just because you're an A-cup with no hips doesn't mean that you are some non-fertile, unhealthy waif, just like having a some padding or voluptuousness does not make you a lazy, overweight lump. You gotta be real with yourself on what your body type is, or you risk being unrealistic and sorely disappointed.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 01:26 AM

This is always under appreciated, @Blosson1, because everyone's like "oh, look at all your problems! I'm small! Boo-hoo!" which really is damaging and demeaning. I have a friend who recently admitted to being TERRIFIED that she never really went through puberty because she doesn't really have any breasts and is super tiny. Even though she had her period and was very healthy, she was completely convinced she would never be able to have children or even attract a partner. Took a lot of years of maturing and learning for her to get intimate with anyone! And I don't think that's a rare example.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on April 11, 2012
at 12:35 AM

Just caught this response - Jenny, I can't imagine how awful that must have felt! I probably have a dozen related anecdotes regarding accusatory doctors or nurses, comments about being "a string bean" that people assume are complimentary...I have filled out with muscle and a little bit more healthy bodyfat since then, but it was painful to hear those things as a teenager wishing for some curves to feel "normal."

25
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Your answer is in your question.

I came across a few sites that mention that women who are paleo are often not even close to being as lean as Paleo men.

Like it or not, this is by design. The way I like to put it, is that a proper adherence to Paleo is about resetting your body to "factory defaults", so that things like digestion, skin/hair/nail health, obesity, and autoimmune disorders are rectified. Naturally, women have been shaped by evolution to not be as lean as men so they can sustain a healthy reproductive system, and another life within them (if they so choose).

Going beyond to the "hacking" phase of paleo is about tailoring it to specific goals such as the dieter's concept of the ideal body, athletic performance, cost, etc...

1dcfcebc5f36408d121f124a78292d42

(1295)

on March 30, 2012
at 03:24 PM

I think one of the major sources of struggle is that fact that many women's "factory settings" are not in alignment with western society's standards of attractiveness. Commence decades of fighting with your body over those "last 10 lbs." It sucks when I think about the fact that I got way more attention from men when I was on a starvation diet and 15 lb thinner. It really messes with your head. I want to "own" my curves and be proud of my fertile body, but society doesn't seem to be on the same page, and I'm sick of getting passed over or rejected.

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on April 08, 2012
at 04:31 PM

Well, when have you ever known Western Societies standards of ANYTHING to be on-the-mark? 150 years ago, and for probably five-hundred years prior to that, an obese woman was the pinnacle of affluence and considered sexy. It's unobtainium that Western Society chases, not "healthy" or "proper".

24
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 05:35 PM

I remember once I dated a really rather ignorant guy and he was bragging about his body fat was 10%. I told him mine was 22% and he was like "whoa, that is so fat, that is like, so surprising because you look really good." ???_???

As someone already linked my blog above, all I can say is that fat has a purpose in women, which is fertility. It's also been discussed here quite extensively.

Also, here is my comment from BB's FB page, where I got into a discussion with a girl who enjoys getting her body to low body fat: ""Plus, how do we know we need to have a montly period anyway? Certainly paleo women from healthy cultures were not always having monthly periods." Yeah, because they were PREGNANT or LACTATING. Not because they were malnourished. I think it's great you have a recreational hobby of being lean, but this post is against portraying that as the ideal, rather than a hobby for a select group of women who happen to enjoy it as you do. When you start rationalizing amenorrhea, that's when it stops being a hobby and starts becoming dysfunctional. You have to be realistic about the costs and benefits of extreme leanness. Some women have low set points and can maintain their fertility and normal cycles even with low body fat, others can not. When you are in the tail ends of the bell curve for body fat in women, you have A LOT of variation."

So yeah, if you want to go that low, have fun, be aware of any signs of problems since not all women can get that low without wrecking their hormones, but don't pretend it has anything to do with evolutionary nutrition or paleo.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:51 PM

Sorry Melissa -I had to link to your article. It was awesome!!

D3495cd9e3e7173f24e1dbee40774573

on April 06, 2012
at 09:01 PM

Ha yeh, there is a lot of variation. I lose my period at 115lbs (5'4) but my sister has been 105lb and still menstruated. I have always had more hormone problems, maybe I just have a poorer tolerance to stressful situations. I'm sure my body fat when I'm amenorrheic is higher a good bit higher than 22%. I also thought I was too fat. Now I have seen sense and I'd rather have a bigger bum than I'd like and have my health to boot:)

18
Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 28, 2012
at 05:47 PM

Did you see this? http://ancestralizeme.com/2012/03/27/paleo-women-are-phat/ I was just discussing this in another arena, and I think it's time that we really get the word out that if health is our goal, women need more fat than men. And why would anything besides optimal health be our goal??? Striving for a lean body has gotten me in a lot of trouble in my past, and I am now simply striving for health. These two ideas will never be one and the same for me and my body. Mainstreaming women's REAL health sounds like a very exciting idea, yes?

Ebcbbdcb8b727e69e06eaa102d49a84c

(1804)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:12 PM

Saw this article earlier today. Loved it. :)

9
F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:16 PM

I love Melissa's article on Hunt Gather Love. http://huntgatherlove.com/node/680

From eating paleo my body is doing what her's did, getting healthier and getting more womanly looking.

5
26e37da67da21e0ce72af121fe1982be

on April 01, 2012
at 06:59 PM

Hi there,

I am 25, yet childless, having some exercise occasionally (trying to do it 4 times a week). I'm on paleo for 1.5 year now. I do not think men are only attracted to skinny women. It is false. Everyone has diff. types. I am not skinny, I look fit. I have approx. 4kg plus on me. I had it lost when starting on paleo but saw no difference in the attraction of men towards me.

Here's the secret Ladies: Men are not attracted to body fat percentage. Men are attracted to confident women!!!

So just feel healthy and don't give a... Be paleo.

A3c56c85290f748410a6f340ddd552b3

(321)

on December 02, 2012
at 03:51 PM

Nice handle, too. :-)

5
0266737ea1782946902fd3f8e60fa0b9

(2504)

on March 29, 2012
at 07:43 PM

I guess it makes me sad that this issue keeps arising. I've loved the articles and reflections that have been surfacing on the interwebs, but I am sad that so much energy is being paid to what the body looks like by smart, interesting, capable women. I think it's one aspect of so many relevant parts of a person's well-being. Of course, I like to look in the mirror and like what I see, but I also want to be smart, interesting, fulfilled, happy, etc. and I hate how many women put thin or ripped or lean in front of so many other wonderful goals to have.

I get it, and I empathize, I'm just sorry about how much energy the quest for slim/lean can take away from other interesting and wonderful goals.

(stepping down off soapbox now).

5
06bf7b92d77f1ac1d8e3dc9d539d8254

on March 29, 2012
at 03:29 PM

"Breeding or not...what's good for the gonads is good for the girl. I don't think you can selectively choose to harm part of your health, and expect the rest of it to still be tip top. Nature is kind of a bitch too, you can work all day trying to get rid of your hiney, and voila, fat starts to migrate from your brain and bone marrow right back down to your behind, then you are depressed, you develop osteoporosis, and the pants you were hoping to fit into still don't zip...which I think judging from the plethora of boniva and antidepressant ads is the plight of modern women in a nutshell." ??? Happy Now 19 hours ago

This needs to be on a billboard somewhere... everywhere. I love it.

Anecdotally, my best friend is one of those people that will do something just to prove that she is capable. For instance, she ran a marathon after only a few weeks of training and finished. Then, for some crazy reason, she decided to train for a fitness competition. You know the type where women get down to sub 10 body fat, get super tan and model in front of judges? Well she is in her final days before the show and she is in absolute hell. She has been training for 6 months, on a super restrictive diet for more than 4 months, consisting mostly of lean protein and steamed veg.. with a little protein powder or oats mixed in when she is looking to party. For the past 2 weeks she has been experiencing extreme muscular pain so she went to see a neuromuscular therapist. Immediately he could see that she had a broken tail bone, 2 slipped disks and that her right hip sits 5 inches higher than her left. This is of course due to overtraining to get down to competition level. Not only that, but she is obviously extremely malnourished and her hormones are jacked. She is 6'4'' and weighs 154 pounds at this point... subsequently has not had a period in 3 months.

I realize this is an extreme situation, but... I do not see her as much different than the women at the gym that slog away on the stair master for hours on end, go home and nibble on some fat free pudding and wake up every day thinking they are fat and worthless. As soon as my bff starts to eat again all that weight is going to come back with a vengeance (thank goodness).. point here is really that yes, women naturally carry more fat than men.. it is a fact of biology. Why not embrace it rather than kill yourself to look like some wacky ideal in your probably depressed head?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:44 AM

Maybe you could surprise your friend with a congratulations feast when she has finished with this goal, and invite her back to the world of the nourished. I wish her luck. Damn, I wish I could afford a billboard! I think even more than this, I'd just like to plaster the world with images of real women in swimsuits from the days before plastic surgery. Maybe someday when I have that little pastoral farm you can barely see from the freeway I'll paint this in giant letters so it can be seen from passers by much like the bible quotes and political rantings that dot the hillsides on road trips.

4
4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 01, 2012
at 08:09 PM

I've met a few women who follow a paleo diet and in general they look great. They have amazing skin, and look very healthy and happy. Albeit, not necessarily the "Cosmo covergirl." Women are designed to have a little more fat on them than the guys. It's normal. Much of the crazy notion women have they are too fat and always seem to have this need to become thinner is dangerous marketing. I had said on one of the other blogs I read where this same question came up. This is mostly all just the media telling the women they need to be skinny for whatever reason. The models in women's magazines are terrible. Most men don't even find them attractive. Don't believe me? Drop the cosmo and pick up a playboy. Those women are not pencil thin, I promise. And clearly men find them attractive. Drop the impossible media image, get it out of your head and embrace a little extra fat that women need!

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 07, 2012
at 10:50 PM

You're very welcome. I try to look at most everything in a practical/open mindset, and will hopefully keep it up. I hope it helped.

Ef4ef7ba9488a8d292b458a26fab68bc

on April 07, 2012
at 07:03 PM

Derek, you are my hero of the day ;) Thank you for a honest view into a men's mind.

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 10, 2012
at 10:09 AM

And I don't think it's at all ridiculous to think that women should just relax and be healthy and bam they get hot. Almost every paleo woman I've met looked very healthy and attractive (to me). I'm sure it didn't happen over night, but to think that it's "unattainable for many women" is a pretty big blanket statement. I would suggest it's very much the opposite, and most women are much hotter than their self-consciousness will allow them to admit. Especially when living paleo

4303a65967884e68bfae59817c227351

(1881)

on April 10, 2012
at 10:05 AM

Kim Kardashian is definitely a very airbrushed genetic outlier, once again on the cover of most grocery isle magazine's geared towards women. I hardly think she counts, but even if she does she's a MUCH healthier looking (weight wise) woman than most cosmo models. And while you say "ew" to playboy, it is just helpful in the explanation here. The question brought forth is about weight and body image. Your personal qualms about looking at a naked women aside, it was just a place to prove that guys don't usually like super thin women.

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on April 10, 2012
at 08:57 AM

Thanks Derek, but really? For many, many women, Playboy, in addition to, you know, ew, is just as much as an "impossible media image" as a high fashion show. Its really no better to promote the Playboy image than the fashion model image. Its just as unattainable for many women, and I think its pretty ridiculous for people to blather about how women should just relax, be healthy and bam, look like Kim Kardashian.

Ed2157b3a5560af0f2c507c8fc4f5a2a

(210)

on April 19, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Just putting it out there... the women on Playboy are almost as thin and have just as low bodyfat % most of the time as the girls on the cover of cosmo. Biggest difference? Breast Implants & Butt Implants. End rant.

4
284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 28, 2012
at 05:41 PM

If you look at pictures of women who have had DEXA (dual x-ray absorptiometry) scans done corresponding to their pictures, it's obvious that women, for fans of all aesthetics except for Ms. Skeletor, are much more attractive and closer to fulfilling the tenets of those aesthetics than men at equal bodyfat percentages. That is only one reason why men-to-women is a bad comparison. Example: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showpost.php?s=d3d4df741daf179f24ff045fc1456135&p=154301&postcount=3715

paleo-&-ladies'-bodies

She is at 19%, according to the scan, and not really my cup of Nuwara Eliya high orange broken pekoe. Everyone is different, of course, and she may be able to be this low in bodyfat and not have any health consequences. This also may be true at lower percentages--I'm not for discriminating against healthy low-BF women anymore than the opposite. I have sub-q (and likely visceral) abdominal fat even at 15% BF(though i'm not advocating for gut-acceptance in dudes--mine is a risk factor for all the metabolic diseases that have lowered, and shortened, quality of life for elderly males in my family)

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Man, further proof of body-diversity: I had 1% lower body fat than her and did not look anything like that! We all be holding our weight and muscles in different places!! I had, like, two abs, and my arms/shoulders were ginormous.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 29, 2012
at 02:12 PM

yeah, i'm more familiar with the male examples but I think this is true across genders. Go further back into history, though, and there is less variation for both.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on April 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

+1 for the tea geekery. :-)

3
0266737ea1782946902fd3f8e60fa0b9

(2504)

on March 29, 2012
at 02:59 AM

So I have a follow up question. If fat helps for reproductive health in women, why does it not go away post menopause? If anything, it seems like women get even more likely to hold on to their fat post menopause, which doesn't make sense based upon this vision. Thoughts?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 29, 2012
at 06:02 AM

HA, an interesting fact is that grandmothers are important for infant survival. Females create breastmilk out of stored fat (apparently particularly thigh fat). If the mother dies or loses her milk, even grandmothers can lactate. Lactation is governed by two pituitary hormones: prolactin and oxytocin. So even if you're older, an experienced woman can induce some lactation - the ability for older, mature moms/grandmas to do this is optimal to infant survival in harsh conditions. We monkeys are social critters who evolved to support our tribe - grandmas are a great invention for us here.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 29, 2012
at 03:04 AM

We still need estrogen for good overall health. Estrogen is produced in fatty tissue, so even though the uterus & ovaries stop producing it, there is a supply available. The more fat you have, the more estrogen you have.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 29, 2012
at 03:04 AM

I've read some stuff indicating that it can provide a bit of a buffer in old age to and give us something to draw on as our digestive abilities decline, but then there are the KRON theorists too. I suspect it is very individualized and neither theory is definitive.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 29, 2012
at 03:01 AM

In Why Women Need Fat they explain it helps protect against infection and bone fractures.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:33 AM

During my doula training there were a number of older women in the class, many hadn't nursed a baby in decades, and holding a crying infant actually brought about the tingly feeling of a milk letdown reflex in two of them.

3
59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

on March 28, 2012
at 05:46 PM

I think that the stock answer that of "fat for reproductive health" gets used here way too often.

Are we assuming that ALL WOMEN on here are simply after reproductive health? Is it not possible that some women who are Paleo have decided (heaven forbid) to not have children? Does that not allow them to be Paleo?

Also, is it not possible that some women are seeking other goals, ie. competition or perhaps having their optimal physique while still young and not even thinking about reproduction (YET)? (not saying that they shouldn't think of it for the future and be healthy now)

But i just think its so narrow minded to say "women should have fat because they are designed to have babies. the end"

There is a lot more perspectives, goals and views than that.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:50 PM

Sorry, I downvoted, because saying that we tell women that it's okay and healthy to have a reserve of fat for overall health "way too often" throws this out of perspective- women get told all the time that it is ALWAYS BETTER to be very lean, and that they should work on erasing all evidence of our biological differences, or any children we've possibly had. I think our message is way less extreme, and something that women hardly EVER hear- that it is OK and healthy to have a fat reserve to maintain proper health.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:17 PM

Breeding or not...what's good for the gonads is good for the girl. I don't think you can selectively choose to harm part of your health, and expect the rest of it to still be tip top. Nature is kind of a bitch too, you can work all day trying to get rid of your hiney, and voila, fat starts to migrate from your brain and bone marrow right back down to your behind, then you are depressed, you develop osteoporosis, and the pants you were hoping to fit into still don't zip...which I think judging from the plethora of boniva and antidepressant ads is the plight of modern women in a nutshell.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 06:31 PM

I'm not having babies any time soon, but the fact is these systems in my body that are responsible for trying to make me an evolutionary-winning baby machine are trying to keep me as healthy as possible. I don't have to let them know I'm using that health to see the world or do whatever women are doing these days, I just have to acknowledge them and keep them in working order to support my own well-being.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Breeding or not...what's good for the gonads is good for the girl. I don't think you can selectively choose to harm part of your health, and expect the rest of it to still be tip top. Nature is kind of a bitch too, you can work all day trying to get rid of your hiney, and voila, fat starts to migrate from your brain and bone marrow right back down to your behind, then you are depressed, you develop osteoporosis, and the pants you were hoping to fit into still don't zip...which I think judging from the plethora of boniva and antidepressant ads the plight of modern women in a nutshell.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 08:38 PM

Point* not poor

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 28, 2012
at 05:50 PM

Whether a woman chooses to reproduce or not is beside the point entirely. Since women are designed to reproduce, our bodies have evolved to optimize anything that will contribute to healthy offspring. That is our nature, and we are therefore at our healthiest when we don't try to fight nature.

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 08:35 PM

Jenny J , I assure you, I completely agree. I was making a poor that is being misinterpreted. I am a huge advocate for positive body images towards women...

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:07 PM

So, just to clarify, is it a women's ultimate physique, the be-all end -all, when a women achieves a physical state of healthy reproduction? Whatever that may look like, that is the goal?

59ee717de524f921efb7f2984157339f

(871)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:26 PM

Absolutely i agree. I just think it is important to take everyone's individual physical goals into consideration and not judge if someone were to make the choice to be leaner or lower body fat for their own goals..whether that be competing or something else.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:19 PM

It's worth pointing out here that research on the Female Athlete Triad indicates long term health problems (particularly around bone health & stress fractures) for women who maintain a very lean body... totally aside from any reproductive consequences.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:52 PM

And it's not just reproductive health that suffers- bone and metabolic health will be affected by a lack of fat reserves, and this is specific to women. Being healthy doesn't mean that you are currently or planning on being heterosexual, pregnant, or lactating, it just means being your optimal self, which for ladies is going include a heftier portion of fat than our male counterparts.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:21 PM

No one is saying that all women want to have babies. But if a woman's bodyfat is so low that she can't do what her body is DESIGNED BY NATURE to do, that is to menstruate, get pregnant and bear children, then don't you see it's not natural or healthy for her to be that low? Regardless of whether she actually wants children?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:49 PM

I think it is also important to differentiate between women "who maintain" a low BMI through exercise and severe calorie restriction and people who are naturally ectomorphs but eat well, which I think accounts for the fairly wide variety of minimum bodyfat percentages in regards to maintaining fertility.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on March 28, 2012
at 06:26 PM

...for example, if a man's body fat % was tied to his sexual function, such that when he got too low, he was unable to have erections or ejaculate, would you just say "well maybe looking muscular is more impotant to him than having a sex life?" It's about looking to Mother Nature to tell us where our bodies should be, not a photoshopped image of a starving model in a fashion mag.

1
5680f5060a62bb3790478473a5643afe

(290)

on April 01, 2012
at 07:45 PM

"Beauty is not a woman. It???s a man???s idea of a woman." - Quentin Crisp on glamour

Let your unconscious mind sit and marinate in that for an hour or so while your grass-fed meats marinate in their own juices ;) and re-visit this question again.

We are visual beings and #'s, %'s, and all that other jazz assert our need to categorize our observations on a need-to-know basis. What you see is a spectrum of beauty in terms of what 'looks' and determines sexiness and health is a cocktail of social, cultural, and perhaps at this point in our evolutionary development: biological.

Health is wealth but if I can see the world through bacon-tinted glasses then forget the wealth, I'll just sit back and enjoy the view ;)

1
9255d6163a7114b8392079bfb8fd6151

(216)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:09 PM

i did a hydrostatic dunk and got 17.2% and i definitely still have visible fat (inner thigs, hips, butt). i was shocked it was that low but my kettlebell trainers said they were at 14% and 15% and that it doesn't stop your period or anything like that. i was really skeptical of that but really wanted to believe that my body fat was that low.

is it that the tank underestimates body fat? they were so nonchalant about such low numbers.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 07:17 PM

Some people lose their period at that low, others don't. It depends on the woman. I figure...why take that risk if I've worked so hard to restore my cycles? Not worth it to me.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 28, 2012
at 08:37 PM

It's a bell curve with abnormalities (PCOS rates for example is higher in higher body fat women) at both ends and high amounts of variance there too.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:47 PM

I really depends on the person. I lost my period when I was 18% body fat, gained it back as soon as I hit 20%. I know girls that have lost their periods at lower than that, and even a few girls who lost it higher (on fellow rower lost her's below 23%, she usually didn't have one). If anyone says "it won't stop your period" they aren't telling truth- it doesn't stop THEIR period, and they don't know anything about your period.

1
Ee70ee808f748374744404a00e1c22ed

(1163)

on March 28, 2012
at 05:11 PM

Is it possible for women to get as lean as men? Yes. Is it optimal? I would say in most cases, no. As jj commented, women's bodies retain more fat (and require more fat) for reproduction and child-bearing. Most women will settle at a higher body fat percentage than men, and pushing your body below that probably isn't too healthy.

0
Ea2e3f92df3d4f8d87e67ba472fade41

on April 09, 2012
at 08:15 PM

As I study for my final exam in my human sexuality course, I think it's important to not forget that it is all about the waist-to-hip ratio! You can be at a higher body-fat with an ideal waist-to-hip ratio (0.7) and be viewed as more attractive than a women of lower body fat and have a higher waist-to-hip ratio (0.8, etc).

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n1781r3020218qtk/

-5
A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:58 PM

paleo or not, but if a lady is 'bigger' (=fatter) than this:

paleo-&-ladies'-bodies

who cares?...

0266737ea1782946902fd3f8e60fa0b9

(2504)

on March 30, 2012
at 06:06 PM

isn't the point of this post to AVOID objectifying women's bodies?

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:17 AM

one can always tell even if the object is clothed: [IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/9t0t95.jpg[/IMG]

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:07 AM

How do we know? Perhaps a side by side photo? J/k

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:16 AM

one can always tell even if the object is clothed: ![alt text][1] [1]: http://i41.tinypic.com/9t0t95.jpg

06bf7b92d77f1ac1d8e3dc9d539d8254

(1649)

on March 30, 2012
at 05:15 PM

not sure i understand the point you are trying to make with this photo?

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on March 31, 2012
at 02:42 AM

@HA since when? why objectifying is bad, i don't understand: i do objectify, and so what? the point is if a woman has less awesome physique than the one on the photo i posted, then she is not considered a woman - a human being, person - alright, but not a member of the opposite sex for me - you, americans, are too much into feminism, that you don't care about appearance, and are doomed by so called 'fat acceptance' - in japan, women are under constant societal pressure to look good, to look a little bit childish - because most men like it, and i like it too

C513f1dba19e01bbd7e0f4f12b243a97

(670)

on April 01, 2012
at 08:30 PM

Yay, body policing on Paleohacks!

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:32 AM

igel, I have some very good friends in Japan who live with this societal pressure you speak of, and believe me they are not pleased about it and think very little of the men who propagate these ideas. Just because they are culturally acceptable doesn't mean they should be accepted.

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:47 AM

@ Jen - "childish" vs "youthful" - sure there is a subtle difference, but... hmmm... semantically "youthful" allows for some degree of "maturity" - which is a big no-no; japanese women may complain about such a trait of the society they live in, but in a hindsight that benefits them pretty much, allowing them to remain "youthful" way into their 40-s (perhaps, by virtue of calorie restriction - who knows)

Cdbfa5e332dc69db6505f803bd2df63a

(90)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:39 AM

igel - I bet you are glad women don't objectify men as you do. The idea of women looking 'childish' is plain disgusting & pedophiliac. A gal can be as pretty as a picture & still be incapable of joy, of sensuality and capacity for orgasmic sex. But, I've got a feeling you don't care about the inner reality of women.

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:36 AM

Igel I have some very good female friends in Japan who live with this societal pressure you speak of. Believe me when I report that they are not pleased with this and think very little of the men who propagate these ideas. Just because these ideas are culturally acceptable doesn't mean they should be accepted. I think perhaps there is some confusion when you say you like your women to look childish- I suspect you mean youthful, at their reproductive prime.

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:43 AM

Further, objectification is bad because it dehumanizes. It suggests that self worth can be determined by certain qualities or physical characteristics. It's interesting you feel a woman is only a woman if you are physically attracted to her. I'll let you in on a secret, women in general care for themselves and take pride in their appearance. Their idea of physical beauty my simply differ from your own. Beauty is also enhanced by the way someone carries themselves, their ethics and values- it is much more than skin deep.

A7925ab8ea44e6d4d5d7c6f202632c6c

(404)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:40 AM

@ Cindy: i, actually, encourage all women to objectify men - go for it! - if a guy doesn't have abs, has no waist - shoulders ratio to speak of, ditch them! (unless they have tons of cash - in that case being fat and ugly doesn't matter); it may seem "disgusting & pedophiliac" to you, but not so to most men (they just tend not to voice their opinions publicly for fear of being labeled "disgusting pedophiles"), including western men (that's why so many of them marry japanese women, or if they can't don't bother with women in-flesh, and some cute anime character to adore instead)

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:24 PM

downvoted for an appallingly disgusting post.

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