1

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Hack my dairy dilemma!

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 02, 2012 at 5:31 PM

I am pretty new to the paleo world. When i started in January, i was a Vegetarian (i ate fish). I started by eliminating wheat and then went from there. i was already eating very healthy so it was not too hard to adapt. At first i lost a little weight, but then i fell off the wagon a few times (vacation) and gained it all back plus some! I then decided to give up my vegetarian lifestyle of 3 years and started eating meat. I'm now about a week into this new way of eating and i do feel great... definitely more satiated! However, i would love to know what everyones opinion is on eating dairy? It seems like people are really split on this topic. Before going Paleo i ate very little dairy because i thought the fat was so bad for me. When i found out that wasn't true i did a 180...started eating more and more...and was going through so much organic unpasturized cheese it would make your head spin! I've tried to cut back a little on the cheese but i still eat lots of whole milk organic yogurt, some heavy cream in my coffee etc. etc. So my question is this... are you for or against diary? How much is too much? And, is it detrimental to the waistline? (looking to loose those few lbs and tone up).

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:53 AM

I agree with most of your points but most of the research done with dairy has been pasteurized and often low-fat, which are both significant alterations. Cultures like the Massai have done pretty well with raw dairy. This is ultimately an individual choice (n=1) that people have to figure out their level of tolerance.

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:49 AM

I can't every overeat full fat dairy - heavy cream, whole milk, whole cheeses, butter, ghee - I find it extremely satiating, but it could just be me.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 08:27 AM

Cattle is not natural in some environments. Wild deer, buffalo, etc. have milk for a very short period of time. My wild forest hedgehog loves milk and cheese and goes wild for them. Unfortunately, milk is bad for hedgehogs. Monkeys/dogs/parrots and other animals love cookies, candies and pizza and would go to great lengths to get some of their favorite foods that are not necessarily good for them. I also saw a goat addicted to smoking cigarettes (thanks to an owner who was an alcoholic). That goat begged for it. My email address is vb10vb10@yahoo.com Thanks!

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 06:28 AM

How often do you think bears get to drink it in the wild? Do you know that it is only available (in the wild) for a very short time and cows that have milk are not natural to the environment? Your dog and cat - where would they be able to get obtain milk in the wild? My wild forest hedgehogs all used to love milk and cheese - and guess what - it is really really bad for them, it gives them the diarrhea. Dogs/monkeys/parrots/bears in captivity LOVE cakes, candy and pizza. Is it good for them? Sure, you can email me. But all people have different opinions.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 06:21 AM

I wonder how often bears would be able to do it in the wild? you know that milk is only available for a very short period of time in the wild, right? Also, where would a cat or a dog obtain that milk in the wild? Also, my wild (forest) hedgehogs LOVE milk and cheese and guess what - it is really really bad for them! It gives them diarrhea. Dogs/monkeys/parrots LOVE candies, cookies, pizza, etc. Is it good for them? Sure, you can email me, but everybody has a different opinion.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 03, 2012
at 12:25 AM

Do you want my address here or should I e-mail it to you? Bears will happily attack cattle, rip off the udder and drink the milk leaving the cow to bleed to death. I've seen it. My dog drinks milk whenever it can. My cats all drink cream and love it.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Oooo... that's a cute nickname.

1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:35 PM

I'm all for dairy if you can tolerate it and if you're able to get high quality dairy. On a sidenote, don't call yourself Vegetarian if you ate fish...

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7 Answers

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2
35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:44 PM

I am not against whole milk dairy products, but I don't eat a lot of them. Like you mention, it can be easy to overdo them (especially if you've been restricting cheese for a while and then suddenly allow yourself yummy, luscious full fat cheeses...yum!). It comes down to two main issues for me, the weight thing and vitamin k.

If I eat a strict paleo diet my weight drops. If I eat paleo(ish) with full fat dairy products and an occasional allowance for chocolate and wine, my weight is stable. So I manipulate my dairy intake a bit if I feel like I want to drop a few pounds.

The vitamin k issue is more complex. Vitamin K2, the kind found in fermented foods like yogurt, aged cheese, saurkraut, kim chee and natto, appears to be protective against cardiovascular calcification. I can throw some links out there, but basically a high K2 intake seems to cause calcium to stay in the bones (where it belongs) and not build up in the arteries. My family has a structural cardiac issue that can cause early calcification of parts of the heart. K2 has not been in any way proven to prevent this, but understanding the biochemistry, I want to make sure we're getting it in our diet. And since I have a 3 year old who loves funky cheeses & yogurt but not saurkraut, kim chee or natto... we eat aged dairy products for the sake of our long term health. Even if sometimes I cut it out of my diet for purely cosmetic reasons.

3
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 02, 2012
at 05:44 PM

The answer is: it depends. I'd refer to Mark Sisson's Definitive Guide to Dairy or Chris Kresser's Dairy: food of the Gods or neolithic agent of disease? for fairly balanced look at the paleo/dairy question.

BTW, in today's Paleo Summit presentation with Allison Siebecker she mentions that a friend of hers calls paleo folks who eat dairy the "Swiss paleo." I've always used primal to mean paleo+dairy, but I'm gonna remember this one ;).

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Oooo... that's a cute nickname.

1
6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on March 03, 2012
at 03:01 AM

I don't know if consuming dairy is good or bad. Fellow member akd posted this link somewhere, and I think it is worth reading if you consume cow dairy.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

1
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:12 PM

As in other areas, I prefer a middle-of-the-road approach. I use 3-4 tbsp of heavy cream per day (along with about 1 tbsp of honey) in my coffee each day, distributed between 2-3 large mugs. It takes me nearly 4 hours to sip the coffee.

I make extra-fat yogurt (heirloom Bulgarian made from 1 part organic heavy cream, 3 parts whole milk) and eat about 2/3 cup 3-4 days per week.

I use about 2-4 tbsp of Kerrygold butter per week.

At that level, I'm not having any problems with dairy and I think the lively yogurt is good for me.

0
Aa6717c2a045f299009541b941e8a821

(340)

on March 03, 2012
at 02:52 AM

I agree it's so easy to overeat & it's technically considered 'primal' not 'paleo'. However, there is no right or wrong, this is your experiment to see what works for you,but I can tell you what happened to me.

Up until 3 weeks ago I thought I could eat it no problems. In fact, I was eating it a few times a day with no issues (or so I thought). I cut it out to do a autoimmune paleo type diet (along with nightshades, FODMAPS) to see if it was contributing to my eczema & psoriasis. Well, a few days ago I tried some Goat's cheese & 1/2 hour later I was in discomfort - dull pain in stomach & the next day I had a flair up on my fingers. So what I mean is, you might not realise that it's negatively impacting on you if you keep eating it. Just like wheat can negatively impact your health without you knowing, I believe dairy is in the same camp for a lot of gluten sensitive/celiacs as the research suggests that it can act in the same manner.

I also think that it can be an addiction, or at least there is evidence to suggest that it's addictive. It's interesting that I used to crave dairy, but after 3 weeks without having it, I'm really not that interested which is highly unusual for me!

If you are really worried about it, you can either decrease your consumption so that you are not relying on it so much (which will only bring about nutrient deficiencies if you use it more than other real food) OR you can opt to take it out for a few weeks, or 30 days as many suggest, then re-introduce to see if you have issues with it. When you take it out, then re-introduce, your body will tell you if it doesn't like it.

0
F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 02, 2012
at 10:08 PM

I am against dairy. Here are my reasons why:

  1. I am gluten intolerant and as soon as I gave up gluten, I became lactose intolerant. Later I found out I was not the only one. Why? I was drinking milk like crazy my whole life and could not think of living a day without cheese? Later I found out that lactose intolerance is pretty common in some cultures.

  2. I have read a lot of research on the subject, many of it is controversial, but what isn't? It convinced me that calcium in dairy is not only not beneficial to your bones, it basically causes osteoporosis. Evidence? Lots of it, again it is controversial. My favorite - osteoporosis was not known to many Asian cultures like Japan and Korea. However, all heavy milk drinking cultures have it.

  3. Cheese has some substance that causes mild addiction. I think it is called casomorphin, or something like that.

  4. A game (with prizes!) Name an animal (mammal) that drinks milk after becoming a teenager. The winner gets a year supply of this animal's meat.

  5. Last (I am too lazy today) but not least and my overall favorite. After giving up gluten I have become super sensitive. I mean I have always been sensitive (nobody told me that's because of gluten) but I have become SO SENSITIVE it is like I am a walking testing machine. I react to undetectable traces of gluten. I can tell you if a cloth is made out of wool just by touching it - I get a reaction. I react to white rice! WHITE RICE for God's sake!!!! I am sensitive to so many things, it is easier for me to say what I am not sensitive to. Every time I drink milk product (even unpasteurized raw milk, even raw goat milk) I get an itching reaction. And I don't get it when I eat vegetables or meat or even fruit.

I know a lot of people will give you five hundred sources stating research that some dairy is actually good for you because of blah blah blah. True, I am not going to argue. But I have something better. I have my body as a fine gauge that tells me otherwise. And if they develop a tester better than my body - I will believe them. But I honestly think it is impossible. I hope some day I will become less sensitive, but till then - no dairy for me :)

Anybody knows how to attach files to this thing (an easy explanation for the dumbest dummies like me? Thanks!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 03, 2012
at 12:25 AM

Do you want my address here or should I e-mail it to you? Bears will happily attack cattle, rip off the udder and drink the milk leaving the cow to bleed to death. I've seen it. My dog drinks milk whenever it can. My cats all drink cream and love it.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 06:21 AM

I wonder how often bears would be able to do it in the wild? you know that milk is only available for a very short period of time in the wild, right? Also, where would a cat or a dog obtain that milk in the wild? Also, my wild (forest) hedgehogs LOVE milk and cheese and guess what - it is really really bad for them! It gives them diarrhea. Dogs/monkeys/parrots LOVE candies, cookies, pizza, etc. Is it good for them? Sure, you can email me, but everybody has a different opinion.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 08:27 AM

Cattle is not natural in some environments. Wild deer, buffalo, etc. have milk for a very short period of time. My wild forest hedgehog loves milk and cheese and goes wild for them. Unfortunately, milk is bad for hedgehogs. Monkeys/dogs/parrots and other animals love cookies, candies and pizza and would go to great lengths to get some of their favorite foods that are not necessarily good for them. I also saw a goat addicted to smoking cigarettes (thanks to an owner who was an alcoholic). That goat begged for it. My email address is vb10vb10@yahoo.com Thanks!

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on March 03, 2012
at 06:28 AM

How often do you think bears get to drink it in the wild? Do you know that it is only available (in the wild) for a very short time and cows that have milk are not natural to the environment? Your dog and cat - where would they be able to get obtain milk in the wild? My wild forest hedgehogs all used to love milk and cheese - and guess what - it is really really bad for them, it gives them the diarrhea. Dogs/monkeys/parrots/bears in captivity LOVE cakes, candy and pizza. Is it good for them? Sure, you can email me. But all people have different opinions.

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:53 AM

I agree with most of your points but most of the research done with dairy has been pasteurized and often low-fat, which are both significant alterations. Cultures like the Massai have done pretty well with raw dairy. This is ultimately an individual choice (n=1) that people have to figure out their level of tolerance.

0
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:43 PM

Dairy is fine, if you can tolerate it, but many folk would call you Primal, rather than Paleo.

I eat raw dairy, mainly cheese and goat's kefir.

Easy to overeat, so watch it!

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:49 AM

I can't every overeat full fat dairy - heavy cream, whole milk, whole cheeses, butter, ghee - I find it extremely satiating, but it could just be me.

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