17

votes

Do you believe in "calories in / calories out" for weight loss or gain and why?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created December 06, 2010 at 3:15 PM

As a formerly obese person, I lost my weight counting calories. I did it with a high protein, moderate carb approach and it worked. I lost 100lbs this way. I lost the last 15 after going Paleo, but still counting calories.

The thing that scares me the most about un-weighed/un-measured Paleo is weight gain. I can't seem to retrain my brain to believe I won't gain weight eating all this fat.

I'd love to see research showing that calories DON'T matter or maybe I want to see something proving to me that they do. Really, I am just very worried I will gain back the weight I've lost while trying to go fully Paleo.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

@Aaron, oh yes im very familiar with his site. In fact I follow a program that he'd probably dig. Its simply Rippetoe's Starting Strength program, which is simple the big classic exercises: squats, press, bench press, deadlift, and then the clean from oly lifting. I dont do the higher carb eating on my off days that i think leangains recommends. I dont argue it, i believe that that guy knows his stuff totally, i just am progressing nicely on my strict paleo and lifting program as it is.

912ec069b5bd84af1b6ef7545b950908

(428)

on January 31, 2012
at 10:21 PM

Congratulations on your ongoing weight loss! I want to say that counting calories -didn't- work for me. At the moment I'm 5' 8", 210 pounds, with a skinfold BMI of 30. I get about six hours of exercise a week (weight-lifting + dancing) and another four hours of walking the dog, plus I stand up for 30 hours of my workweek. I should be able to lose weight easily by keeping my calories under 1800. Guess what? I lived with 1200 to 1500 calories for months. I didn't gain weight, but I didn't lose it either. The complicating factors (identified by my docs) are the psych meds I take.

286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

(1288)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:21 AM

Its possible - trust me - I am monitored by a professional too! http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/10/i-eliminated-wheat-and-i-didnt-lose-weight.html

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 22, 2011
at 09:12 PM

Plus on maj......

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Well, the problem is, you can bet on that compensatory mechanisms as akman noted.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Hardwired not hardened. Thank you spellchecker.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:49 PM

CICO is only true in the broad sense because no one can hardened themselves with a calorimeter - yet. The 24 hour fast once a week idea might work in the broad picture, provided it wasn't compensated for by overeating and lethargy on other days. In a 24 hour window basal metabolism wouldn't shut down to a sparing level. Interesting idea.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:19 PM

If CICO was an absolute, then 24 hour fasts once a week, would make weight loss an exact science. If your normal intake was 3500 cal to maintain weight, and once a week you took in 0 cals, then in 10 weeks, you'd lose 10 lbs. But I've never heard anyone say that happens in the real world.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 22, 2011
at 01:26 PM

With all due respect, this is not possible. Have your RMR measured and/or have your fluid balance status looked at.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:53 PM

I do think that exercise will speed up weight loss if done correctly. Overdooing it will not help.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Thats the thing, exercise diminishes with age. So it would mean that we all get obese when we age if the exercise idea was true. Exercise is good, but its level is not sustainable generally speaking. You need to base your solution to something that doesn't involve exercise.

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:46 PM

My mom gained a lot of weight not eating much. Cal-in, Cal-out certainly didn't work for her, either.

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:43 PM

My experience, too, Nico!

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:42 PM

Thanks Carl. I just came on this thread to recommend The Bitter Truth (your first link). Dr. Lustig does talk about the first law of thermodynamics, if I recall correctly, and how "calories-in, calories-out" is a dramatic simplification and doesn't correspond to that law at all.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:34 PM

One of the things about Taubes that I dislike is his slighting of the importance of activity. I'm glad that you can sit and study for 10 hours and stay lean, but "calories out" means being active. The more you do the more you eat. It's a behavior I had to relearn, and I can only hope that I will practice the modified behavior long enough to sustain it.

Cc7381bd787721575ea9198048132adb

(5541)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:32 AM

Just want to say this is one of the best Q+A's I've seen on this site so far, I've learned a lot from this page alone. Keep up the awesome work Melissa.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on January 30, 2011
at 11:42 PM

I think counting is useful. I'm tracking to compare to pre-Paleo numbers, for my own satisfaction, and to have data to back up my paleo claims if need be at the doctor's office. I'm eating much less calories on average per day now, but I'm satisfied and full for much longer periods. I also do IF and do it spontaneously, not on any sort of schedule. The extra calories from the pre-Paleo days were from fillers like rice, sodas, grains, and other assorted carbs. 24 pounds lost and probably about 15 or so to go. Perhaps one day I'll now longer count, but for now it's very helpful.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on January 13, 2011
at 12:37 AM

I can easily gain weight on a paleo diet of any variety. The good kind (muscle) and the bad kind.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 08, 2010
at 01:33 AM

Jae, that sounds fun. I just sent an email to the address on your website. I guess if I don't hear from you in a while I'll comment on one of your posts to trigger your paleohacks notification alarm.

F82f7d4dafb6d0ffc4c2ee2a85420786

(484)

on December 08, 2010
at 12:52 AM

@sherpamelissa - If you love calorie counting, what's the concern? keep doing it. Some of us love structure - so why fight it? I can't stand making lists or anything like that personally, but I keep a mental tally of what I eat and it seems to work.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on December 07, 2010
at 11:07 PM

Hi Melissa- I see what you mean. I think in my case the problem was more just that I wasn't paying any attention to what I was eating. I was never really a binge eater. So I could see the benefit of exercising control in this way. One way I did exercise this control was through intermittent fasting. When I tell people I'm not eating dinner, or that I'm exercise without having eaten for 20 hours, people look at me like I'm superman :-) Actually anyone can do it.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 07, 2010
at 08:09 PM

Correct and full disclosure - I never count and have no idea if I'm consuming 2,000 or 5,000 per day. (well maybe SOME idea)

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on December 07, 2010
at 07:38 PM

Mascarpone and heavy cream, with not carbs per se, made me gain weight. My caloric intake was 1000/1500+ above my needs.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 07, 2010
at 05:07 PM

Don't apologize for the long post. You distilled pretty much everything I would have wanted to say, but said it better than I could have. =) On a side note, I have family up in Chicago and will be around toward the end of December. Any interest in a Chicago-area PH meetup?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:26 PM

I absolutely get what you are saying Eva. Thank you. I think for me, it wasn't really a "hungry" thing and finding out why I was hungry. I was a binge eater due to depression. I had to fix a lot of things to get here. So I had to find my triggers and fix those. I relied on calorie counting to keep me on target, but I think it may be the logging of the food and the boundries that were more important. I also learned about how to tweak my ratios of carb/fat/protein over this time period for the best weight loss, so I do understand that it is how my body uses the food that I put in it.

1cbb6b2a813475d6c0b17fd5e898dc50

(1248)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:25 PM

LOL...that's a lot of food, I am also starting a muscle building cycle. Ever seen the leangains blog? Martin is a trainer who helps people gain muscle why keeping body fat low. http://www.leangains.com/ Martin Berkhan has made quite a name for himself on the blogosphere.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:20 PM

Thanks so much Nico! That's awesome that it's worked so well for you. I think what asking this question did for me is make me realize that the calorie counting or food logging is more of an exercise of control for myself, based on my personal issues with food. I am going to inch the calories up and I have been getting more fat. I am just not comfortable enough to give myself free reign. There is always something to binge on, even in Paleo land.

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 07, 2010
at 05:43 AM

That's just what I do: Eat fat and be happy :-)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:53 AM

Thanks Dex, as a formerly obese person, with food issues, my body is not good at telling me when it's full. Maybe someday I'll get there, but right now, it needs some boundries. :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:52 AM

Appreciate that Ben! Maintenance is hard and all about the tweaking for me, which I like to over think! I love all the input around here, it's been mind opening!

Db4e2062cad50ab5042dfc5685c3e06d

(109)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:10 AM

Always a pleasure to be contentious. I think the argument for counting comes in when we need to tweak. But then it's the ratios not the absolute numbers which are important. And don't get me wrong, I can geek out when it comes to data - it just has to be sexy data (presentation thereof, not subject therein)

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:04 AM

@sherpa, yeah, well like all things you get used to it. It did take some adjusting for me but you can be sneaky like instead of an ounce steak you go twelve ounces, etc. Things like that add up. I also dip pieces of meat in liquid coconut oil. But then again, im weird:) Anyhow, great pics, you're doing awesome looks like

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:58 PM

Now you're moving the goalposts; you made several completely inaccurate claims about human physiology which none of the men you cite would agree with. I suggest you read them a little more carefully. FWIW Kurt Harris explicitly disagreed with Taubes when I asked him to comment on Taubes' "you can't get fat from fat" claim. Your claim that fat must be converted to sugar before being stored as fat is just flat out wrong; but don't take my word for it, go try to find the metabolic pathway that accomplishes what you claim in any physiology textbook, or by asking the doctors you cite.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:34 PM

Sherp..I would add, just eat paleo til you are full. Your satiety level will keep you in equilibrium...or as WCC Paul says...your body fat setpoint will take over and keep you in equilibrium.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:30 PM

Thanks, Paul! It's been a lot of work and I tend to over think things. I really appreciated your response!

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:28 PM

pfw & Jae: I think I will stick with Gary and Dr. Davis, and Stephan, and Dr Kurt Harris, and Ned Kock and Chris Masterjohn, Drs Eades...and many others who understand the basic physiology and chemistry of the body. If one wants to overeat and convert the protein or whey to glucose to store as fat..go right ahead and do that. We are talking normal people who do not gorge on whey protein...they just want to insure they never go back to their SAD. And the best way normal people can do that is to avoid spiking their blood sugar.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 09:19 PM

@pfw, check it out, you can start listening at 38:35, and then you'll get the context, but the most important stuff begins at 40:40. Goes for about five minutes maybe?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 09:13 PM

Thanks Melissa and Kamal. (Haven't seen you recently, Kamal, guess you've been studying for those exams you told us about ...) Melissa, I'll check out that guy at Columbia. Other overfeeding and underfeeding experiments can be found in this great post from Stephan: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/body-fat-setpoint.html and of course in GCBC. In the meantime, go Sox! I looked at your profile; congratulations on your improved health; I've been down your way before, walking in a forest preserve, but I can't remember which one.

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:41 PM

LCHF started in Sweden and came over to Germany. Standard carb intake is about 20 - 30 g. But if loosing weight gets difficult, going lower is recommended. LCHF includes dairy, eggs, various vegetables and nuts. But I eat mostly meat, fish and greens - that's perfect to me...

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:37 PM

Good to know Taubes backed down from that "no fat without carbs" thing. Ever since he said it in that video lecture a while back it's been popping up all over the place and providing the perfect "ignore everything Taubes said because he also said this" one liner.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:07 PM

Kikilula, is that an official or quasi-official way of designating things in Germany? That VLC is under 5g of carbs a day? I've always found these designations kind of fluid, and I'm totally OK with that, but in any event I would have thought that even under 20g (or even 30) a day would count as VLC.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:35 PM

Nicely laid out WCC Paul--way to represent us current (and former) Chicago residents. I wonder if it would be legal to cliffnote the major paleo texts...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:12 PM

Thank you! I am still new to some of the lingo around here. I am consistently adding fat right now, but it is very new to me. I never counted it while calorie counting, but I never actually tried to eat it. Yesterday I made REAL bacon and then cooked my eggs in the fat. It was very liberating. :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:08 PM

I really appreciate the response, thank you. I really think what I've decided is that due to my own issues, not nutrition or Paleo related, that I am better off calorie counting or Food Logging at least. I will keep inching the calories up to see how high I can get without gaining weight while still maintaining a Paleo diet.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:06 PM

This is information on researcher for the "reduced obese" study I was talking about. I can't find the actual study. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/bioethics/egir/cv/Leibel.pdf

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:05 PM

I was on my first diet at age 9. Can't count all diets that followed . Now I'm 47 and finally found my WOE. It's the food I desired as a kid: fatty meats ;-)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:58 PM

WOW! Paul, thank you! We are both in the Chicagoland area (and SOX FANS)! Can you please just sit by me and explain this stuff, all the time? ;) Thank you so much for typing that all out! I know there are studies on formerly obese people that have proven we are more likely to gain weight back because our bodies are trying to get back to what they were used to. It's a hormone thing, I will try and find the study.

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:55 PM

vLCHF = very LowCarb HighFat, that is under 5 g of carbs a day, moderat protein (100 to 150 g) and high fat, at least 200 g a day. LCHF is about regulating your weight to normal - underweight persons will gain musclemass, overweight persons will lose fat... Losing weight with calorie restriction is in fact starving. If you give up starving, your body will gain weight, because it expects that you may soon be starving angain. If you restrict carbs to a minimum and eat fat in excess, after a while you body trusts you, that there won't be no more starving and gets rid of excess fat by burning.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Oh right, I agree. In some cases there are broken metabolisms, so you may not be able to maintain weight comfortably, even on paleo. Taubes admits this also in his interview, and says that that's *one* of the reasons why the book is called Why We Get Fat and not Why We Lose Fat. We can always mess things up but we can't always fix them. What is the saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Think I have that right.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Jae, surely you are not saying you are looking to gain 20 lbs of fat? If you mean muscle, then I think we are talking about different things.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:38 PM

It's false in general, but it's true for some people. You just have to find out whether you are one or not.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:10 PM

Thanks Vrimj, I think what I've decided is that due to my own personal food addiction issues, calorie counting keeps me inline and in touch with what I am putting in my body. Maybe I need to think of it as more food logging, than calorie counting! Yes. I think that's what it is.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:03 PM

I just can't discount it entirely, because it did work for me. What is vLCHF? I have personally tested my calorie counting and after about 1500 I have always gained weight. I do think I may have permanently messed up my metabolism with the up and down and various diets over the years.

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:23 PM

If it helps I am the same height and started paleo as a one month exercise at 185. I lost almost 20 lbs in the first month and have been steadily losing (one week nothing, the next week two pounds) for another month. All without counting and with indulging as much as I like in paleo foods.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:13 PM

Good answer. Obviously calories count, but the point of paleo is to let your body do the counting for you.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:11 PM

This is simply false. I deliberately overate one a zero carb diet and gained twenty pounds. Taubes assertion that you can't get fat without dietary carbohydrate is incorrect and I wish he'd stop making it. Usually he seems to be good about asking for experiments and going with experimental data so I don't get why he would continue to assert something so easily testable without looking for evidence. And as a result, this answer's account of fat storage is simply incorrect.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:44 PM

Aww! Thanks Gilliebean! I've worked hard to get here and learned so much about nutrition (and myself) on the way.

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:40 PM

Melissa! You have *great* before and after photos on your LiveStrong profile! Way to go!! :D

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:29 PM

"If you stay full Paleo you cannot regain the weight. Period." This strikes me as unlikely. I've gained 18 lbs. and am looking to gain another 20, mostly Paleo with some whey protein. This is on high-fat low-carb, too. Of course, it's debatable how one defines "full Paleo."

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:26 PM

Thanks for the counterpoint J. I personally LOVE calorie counting. I like making lists. I love to plan. I understand that most people find it tedious, though. I also understand that it doesn't work for everyone in the same way. I had to tweak my ratios (carbs/fat/protein) to get it to work for me too.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:15 PM

Thanks Jake! I can't get to that link right now. (I have the weirdest filter at work, blogs are bad/message boards ok? LOL.) I am not looking to lose anymore either, I just want to maintain. I do know that different foods are burned in different ways and I've have to play with those ratios. I had to do that while losing too, which is how I ended up high protein, moderate carb.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:13 PM

Dave - In response to your edit. I do cycle my calories, usually a little more on the weekends. I don't look at my calories as a goal, but more of a guideline. I also IF occasionally too.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:10 PM

Thanks Ben! I can't imagine eating that much! Though I probably did when I gained all the weight.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:08 PM

Thanks Jae, I think my responses to this question have helped me answer it for myself, so I appreciate all of your responses. The calorie counting is more of a mental crutch because of my food issues. I think I won't feel bad about it not being a normal Paleo thing to do. I will do what I normally do on maintenance and keep inching them up until I start to gain and then work from there.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:56 PM

I want to, which is why I'm asking the question. It's hard to explain, but its all mental. As a formerly obese person I have a LOT of food issues. I worked through most of them over the last 6 years, but the idea of giving myself free reign is kind of scary.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:56 PM

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with counting calories. It's just that most people hate it, and they do it unintelligently (low-fat, high-carb), and a lot of people regain the weight when they stop "dieting." You are not dieting. If counting calories works for you, then go for it.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:55 PM

Also... I can't watch videos at work! I am going to have to sit down when I get home tonight and try to watch these. My brain melts sometimes from all the science talk.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:54 PM

I know exactly what I'm eating without counting, really. I've been doing it for so long! (1200 calories per day for 6 years now. I'm up to 1400 for maintenance) It's just tough to fit everything I feel like I need for the full Paleo affect within the ranges I am comfortable with. (I'm 5'2" at 136lbs, 24% body fat)

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:52 PM

You are not "wrong" to count calories. It works for many people.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:52 PM

Thanks Carl. It's just hard to dispel the notion from my head, especially because it "worked" for me. I want to believe! I want to cook things in bacon fat and coconut oil and not worry about it.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:50 PM

Well, the belief part comes into the equation by talking myself into doing it. I'm not a science geek (said lovingly) or anything close to it, so the science isn't that easy for me to understand. I also know that you can find a study to prove almost anything. Personal experience tells me that overeating and not moving made me obese and calorie counting and exercise made me lose weight. I am doing my best to understand the science and I really want to eat the healthiest way for my body. It just will be hard for me to completely switch my life's history of how I think about this.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:47 PM

Gary has a great youtube video "Why we get fat." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR3FVvEJ-Nk Its okay to count calories if you want. Eventually, you have a good idea of what you are eating without counting - only you know if and when you can trust yourself.

Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

(13635)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:44 PM

To tell the truth, I also still have the in/out notion lingering in the back of my head.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:37 PM

First of all, great job on the weight loss! It's an amazing accomplishment! So, the 100lbs I lost was mostly due to my high protein and not the rest of the package? I can buy that, somewhat. The first two years, I just plain old calories counted and ate a lot of non-nutritious food. I was skinny fat then also. Then I hit a plateau and researched a lot and went for high protein, moderate carb. I just worked so hard for this, I don't want to mess it up trying to get healthier!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:34 PM

I love this answer. I did just buy Good Calories, Bad Calories and I'm working my way through it. Its part of what made me ask the question. I don't think the new one is out yet, but I also thought I should start with the first book. Mentally, I understand the research (somewhat)... but I can't seem to convince myself yet. It's a hard transition for me.

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31
47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:32 PM

I want to add.

  1. @pfw, Taubes has since admitted, in his interview with Jimmy Moore back in September, that one can store fat in the absence of carbohydrate, in the absence of glycerol 3-phosphate from glucose. We talked about this on a paleohacks thread about insulin, also back in September I believe, where Matthew got us all reading these Taubes critics who form a little circle on the web: James Krieger and adipo insights are the two I've looked at. That thread isn't around anymore because the guy who started it left paleohacks and asked that his contributions be removed.

  2. As I always say, chapter 17 of GCBC is the best thing to read to put it all together. I'll try to to do it briefly here, which might be helpful. The key is that the equation, weight loss = calories out - calories in, will always hold, no matter what (Dave S.). But the mistake everyone makes is thinking that the right-hand side of the equation must be the cause and the left-hand side of the equation the effect. As Dave S. points out, it's usually the other way around: you change the hormones on the inside of your body, and this then has the effect of changing the difference between calories in and calories out (i.e., your body does it for you). The reason the causation often doesn't work from right to left, the reason you don't lose weight when you consciously increase calories out or consciously decrease calories in, is that these two things are not independent variables. If you consciously decrease calories in, your body can, through various techniques, decrease its calories out (CavemanJ). If you consciously increase calories out, your body will do everything it can to get you to increase calories in (make you hungrier). And on the other side of things, if you are skinny, you can increase calories in and your body can compensate by increasing calories out: you fidget, etc. (And if we want to be very precise about the equation we have to include the thermic effect of food (JakeA).) I think the most intuitive thing for understanding this is the idea of a body fat setpoint. You need to change your body fat setpoint, and this doesn't happen just by calorie restriction.

  3. That said, of course you can lose weight by greatly limiting the amount of food you put in your body: if you are starving in the desert you will lose weight. And you can gain weight by overfeeding, even if it's all saturated fat. But two points. i. These are more drastic cases, and the setpoint theory still applies within certain bounds; if you are not underfeeding by a huge margin then your body will find ways of conserving energy and thwarting your fat loss. This makes sense; your body would have to be able to do this on its own; otherwise no one would ever stay the same weight for ten years at a time without meticulously counting calories and making sure that calories in and calories out match up. ii. In starvation and overfeeding experiments, it pretty much always happens that when the experiment ends the subjects go back to their original weight. (Usually in starvation experiments people go back to a weight slightly higher than their original weights, which explains why frequent dieting wrecks your body in the long term.) Your body will do whatever it can to get you back. In the case of underfeeding, it will make you hungry, hungry, hungry until you get back to the body fat level it wants you to be at. And then you'll stop being hungry. Voil??. So if you want to lose weight without hunger then paleo is the way to do it. Rearrange those hormones. Eat paleo, sleep a lot, lift weights.

  4. Note that everything I've said so far was said without mentioning insulin or hyperinsulinemia. All of these points can be made in the absence of any particular theory about exactly what kind of hormonal change has to go on to gain weight or to lose weight. Is it leptin? Is it insulin? Who knows. In this respect, I think Stephan is the tops. Because he is thinking very carefully about the various factors that go into weight gain and weight loss. He does not accept the simple version of the Taubesian theory, "carbohydrate driving insulin driving fat," but he does accept the Taubesian critique of caloric restriction. So he's starting off on the right foot with respect to the calories issue, and then moving on from there to try to figure out exactly what's going on with hormones. Sorry about the long post.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 09:13 PM

Thanks Melissa and Kamal. (Haven't seen you recently, Kamal, guess you've been studying for those exams you told us about ...) Melissa, I'll check out that guy at Columbia. Other overfeeding and underfeeding experiments can be found in this great post from Stephan: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/body-fat-setpoint.html and of course in GCBC. In the meantime, go Sox! I looked at your profile; congratulations on your improved health; I've been down your way before, walking in a forest preserve, but I can't remember which one.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:06 PM

This is information on researcher for the "reduced obese" study I was talking about. I can't find the actual study. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/bioethics/egir/cv/Leibel.pdf

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:37 PM

Good to know Taubes backed down from that "no fat without carbs" thing. Ever since he said it in that video lecture a while back it's been popping up all over the place and providing the perfect "ignore everything Taubes said because he also said this" one liner.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 09:19 PM

@pfw, check it out, you can start listening at 38:35, and then you'll get the context, but the most important stuff begins at 40:40. Goes for about five minutes maybe?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:30 PM

Thanks, Paul! It's been a lot of work and I tend to over think things. I really appreciated your response!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:35 PM

Nicely laid out WCC Paul--way to represent us current (and former) Chicago residents. I wonder if it would be legal to cliffnote the major paleo texts...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:58 PM

WOW! Paul, thank you! We are both in the Chicagoland area (and SOX FANS)! Can you please just sit by me and explain this stuff, all the time? ;) Thank you so much for typing that all out! I know there are studies on formerly obese people that have proven we are more likely to gain weight back because our bodies are trying to get back to what they were used to. It's a hormone thing, I will try and find the study.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 07, 2010
at 05:07 PM

Don't apologize for the long post. You distilled pretty much everything I would have wanted to say, but said it better than I could have. =) On a side note, I have family up in Chicago and will be around toward the end of December. Any interest in a Chicago-area PH meetup?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 08, 2010
at 01:33 AM

Jae, that sounds fun. I just sent an email to the address on your website. I guess if I don't hear from you in a while I'll comment on one of your posts to trigger your paleohacks notification alarm.

11
A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:44 PM

It's not a question of belief. The first law of thermodynamics (energy in = energy out) cannot be violated. Even Gary Taubes and Dr. Michal Eades admit this. The point is that it doesn't give you the cause and effect relationship. Are people fat because they are lazy gluttons? The science says no. People eat too much/get lazy (slow metabolism) because of the hormonal effect of food. Insulin forces the sugar into fat cells (oversimplified, I know) - which leaves the cells hungry. Correct the hormonal problem (sugar/insulin) and the body has plenty of energy in the form of its own fat storage - and will burn this fat and not be as hungry.

Calories matter. You CAN eat paleo and not lose weight. Most people lose because they are less hungry and spontaneously reduce caloric intake. Its also okay to eat more one day and less the next. Skip meals once in a while or try IF.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:13 PM

Good answer. Obviously calories count, but the point of paleo is to let your body do the counting for you.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:52 PM

You are not "wrong" to count calories. It works for many people.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:56 PM

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with counting calories. It's just that most people hate it, and they do it unintelligently (low-fat, high-carb), and a lot of people regain the weight when they stop "dieting." You are not dieting. If counting calories works for you, then go for it.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:50 PM

Well, the belief part comes into the equation by talking myself into doing it. I'm not a science geek (said lovingly) or anything close to it, so the science isn't that easy for me to understand. I also know that you can find a study to prove almost anything. Personal experience tells me that overeating and not moving made me obese and calorie counting and exercise made me lose weight. I am doing my best to understand the science and I really want to eat the healthiest way for my body. It just will be hard for me to completely switch my life's history of how I think about this.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:08 PM

Thanks Jae, I think my responses to this question have helped me answer it for myself, so I appreciate all of your responses. The calorie counting is more of a mental crutch because of my food issues. I think I won't feel bad about it not being a normal Paleo thing to do. I will do what I normally do on maintenance and keep inching them up until I start to gain and then work from there.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:13 PM

Dave - In response to your edit. I do cycle my calories, usually a little more on the weekends. I don't look at my calories as a goal, but more of a guideline. I also IF occasionally too.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 07, 2010
at 08:09 PM

Correct and full disclosure - I never count and have no idea if I'm consuming 2,000 or 5,000 per day. (well maybe SOME idea)

8
Db4e2062cad50ab5042dfc5685c3e06d

on December 06, 2010
at 04:22 PM

I'd like to go out on a limb here and disagree with the well established laws of thermo-dynamics, but more specifically why they do not apply to biological factors so far up the scale.

I have worked with dozens of people who were trying to lose weight. Most people can do this with calories in versus calories out, however, not 100% of people can do it this way. I have worked with people who have restricted calories and increased activity levels (no cheats or any other discrepancies) and haven't lost weight. It's not many, but a single exception leads us to question the premise.

It's not that these few people are circumventing the laws of physics, it's that there are biological safe guards in place - there to prevent sudden changes in environment or sudden food scarcity from harming us. For some, restricting calories and increasing activity will shock the body into starvation mode. If this happens, your body will conserve fat to survive. It will slow down or switch off other non-essential processes. People in this state will make fewer involuntary movements, they will make fewer voluntary movements, core temp may drop, sleep may go on for longer, inhibited cognitive function, 'feeling tired'.

Decreasing calories eaten and increasing overt activity is not always effective.

FYI, for those of my clients who historically can't lose weight via calorie restriction/counting, always manage to on paleo (and that's without counting calories, because calorie counting is BORING)

F82f7d4dafb6d0ffc4c2ee2a85420786

(484)

on December 08, 2010
at 12:52 AM

@sherpamelissa - If you love calorie counting, what's the concern? keep doing it. Some of us love structure - so why fight it? I can't stand making lists or anything like that personally, but I keep a mental tally of what I eat and it seems to work.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:26 PM

Thanks for the counterpoint J. I personally LOVE calorie counting. I like making lists. I love to plan. I understand that most people find it tedious, though. I also understand that it doesn't work for everyone in the same way. I had to tweak my ratios (carbs/fat/protein) to get it to work for me too.

Db4e2062cad50ab5042dfc5685c3e06d

(109)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:10 AM

Always a pleasure to be contentious. I think the argument for counting comes in when we need to tweak. But then it's the ratios not the absolute numbers which are important. And don't get me wrong, I can geek out when it comes to data - it just has to be sexy data (presentation thereof, not subject therein)

6
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on December 07, 2010
at 04:14 AM

Calories in/Calories out is partially true but it has two fallacies. The first fallacy is that those who promulgate this theory usually make it sound like the calories in amount is the cause of the problem. But it's not. The cause of the problem is that which makes you hungry. Then the hunger results in calories in. To solve the problem, you need to get to the root. Calories in is not the root. That which causes hunger is the root. You need to figure out why you are hungry and wish to overeat in order to have long term reliable weight control without suffering.

The second fallacy is that calories in/calories out theorists usually forget about other variables like that it's not only what calories you take in but also what your body chooses to do with them, like either store or burn them. Calories can lead to a fat butt or they can lead to increased energy and desire to get up and go. What the body wishes to do with its calories is another biological issue that is very important but typically totally ignored by many of those who like to talk about calories in/calories out. IMO, calories in/calories out is not exactly inaccurate but the idea is overly simplistic and they way it is currently promoted, also tends to mislead the public about the true reasons behind obesity.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:26 PM

I absolutely get what you are saying Eva. Thank you. I think for me, it wasn't really a "hungry" thing and finding out why I was hungry. I was a binge eater due to depression. I had to fix a lot of things to get here. So I had to find my triggers and fix those. I relied on calorie counting to keep me on target, but I think it may be the logging of the food and the boundries that were more important. I also learned about how to tweak my ratios of carb/fat/protein over this time period for the best weight loss, so I do understand that it is how my body uses the food that I put in it.

5
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:34 PM

It's not that calories don't matter, it's that if your body is working properly in terms of hormones and other signaling mechanisms, you should never have to count calories to get to and maintain a healthy weight. In some people, this ability is broken, and they may have to limit portions to reach these goals. In others, simply removing most of the carbohydrates from the diet will get the right hormonal state, in which eating to satiation will cause weight normalization. In fact, there are people who have purposefully overeaten by vast amounts while restricting carbohydrates and still losing or maintaining. Still others cannot overeat, even if it is just fatty meat, without gaining.

I suggest trying it with some upper bound of how much weight you are willing to gain before you decide it's not working.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Oh right, I agree. In some cases there are broken metabolisms, so you may not be able to maintain weight comfortably, even on paleo. Taubes admits this also in his interview, and says that that's *one* of the reasons why the book is called Why We Get Fat and not Why We Lose Fat. We can always mess things up but we can't always fix them. What is the saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Think I have that right.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:08 PM

I really appreciate the response, thank you. I really think what I've decided is that due to my own issues, not nutrition or Paleo related, that I am better off calorie counting or Food Logging at least. I will keep inching the calories up to see how high I can get without gaining weight while still maintaining a Paleo diet.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:34 PM

Sherp..I would add, just eat paleo til you are full. Your satiety level will keep you in equilibrium...or as WCC Paul says...your body fat setpoint will take over and keep you in equilibrium.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:53 AM

Thanks Dex, as a formerly obese person, with food issues, my body is not good at telling me when it's full. Maybe someday I'll get there, but right now, it needs some boundries. :)

5
Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

on December 06, 2010
at 03:33 PM

There are people smarted than me who can explain it better. Here are some goods videos to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEH0OZVHmvQ

I'm down 60 lbs without counting calories or anything else. The problem with the in/out theory is it's oversimplified and assumes a calorie is a calorie. A calorie is only a unit of heat energy and not a physical thing you can hold in your hand and eat. A slice of Wonder bread has the same calories as about two carrots (around 70). The difference lies in the package the calories come in.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:52 PM

Thanks Carl. It's just hard to dispel the notion from my head, especially because it "worked" for me. I want to believe! I want to cook things in bacon fat and coconut oil and not worry about it.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:37 PM

First of all, great job on the weight loss! It's an amazing accomplishment! So, the 100lbs I lost was mostly due to my high protein and not the rest of the package? I can buy that, somewhat. The first two years, I just plain old calories counted and ate a lot of non-nutritious food. I was skinny fat then also. Then I hit a plateau and researched a lot and went for high protein, moderate carb. I just worked so hard for this, I don't want to mess it up trying to get healthier!

Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

(13635)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:44 PM

To tell the truth, I also still have the in/out notion lingering in the back of my head.

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:42 PM

Thanks Carl. I just came on this thread to recommend The Bitter Truth (your first link). Dr. Lustig does talk about the first law of thermodynamics, if I recall correctly, and how "calories-in, calories-out" is a dramatic simplification and doesn't correspond to that law at all.

3
02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on December 07, 2010
at 05:39 AM

All the folks here are chiming in with theory, so I thought I'd answer based on my personal experience. I lost 40 pounds in the last 7 months without ever restricting calories. In fact, beyond eliminating the stuff everyone does under paleo, I paid very little attention to what I ate; I just ate what I wanted. I should also mention that I ate plenty of fruit, so it was not particularly low-carb.

I did do IF about once a week.

I also ate A LOT of fat: butter, lard, coconut oil.. I may have gone a bit overboard, which may have been what lead to some GI issues. But overall I've never felt better.

So, in so far as I can extrapolate from my own case, it is simply not true that you need to count calories to lose weight. It is also not true that eating fat makes you fat. It seems I just feel full eating a lot less.

I think our national lipophobia is probably one of the most damaging cultural trends in recent years. Eat fat and be happy :-)

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 07, 2010
at 05:43 AM

That's just what I do: Eat fat and be happy :-)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:20 PM

Thanks so much Nico! That's awesome that it's worked so well for you. I think what asking this question did for me is make me realize that the calorie counting or food logging is more of an exercise of control for myself, based on my personal issues with food. I am going to inch the calories up and I have been getting more fat. I am just not comfortable enough to give myself free reign. There is always something to binge on, even in Paleo land.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on December 07, 2010
at 11:07 PM

Hi Melissa- I see what you mean. I think in my case the problem was more just that I wasn't paying any attention to what I was eating. I was never really a binge eater. So I could see the benefit of exercising control in this way. One way I did exercise this control was through intermittent fasting. When I tell people I'm not eating dinner, or that I'm exercise without having eaten for 20 hours, people look at me like I'm superman :-) Actually anyone can do it.

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:43 PM

My experience, too, Nico!

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 10:14 AM

The big problem with calorie counting is that its unsustainable. You can do it for some time, even long time, but then you have to stop it. So what happens when you do - you will return back your old weight, simple as that. Why? Because you returned to your old life which gave you obesity, and since you are older, it will be easier this time. There is a small probability that you fixed something that was broken for good - i.e. CRON dealing with infection that caused obesity in which case you will not get obese again, but I doubt this outcome is that often.

The only way is not to count calories if you want to keep your weight down. You need to base your solution to something that is sustainable. Paleo is good, because it changes your eating habits for life and you don't get back to your old patterns which caused obesity. Other then that, I totally can say everything Eve said.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:19 PM

If CICO was an absolute, then 24 hour fasts once a week, would make weight loss an exact science. If your normal intake was 3500 cal to maintain weight, and once a week you took in 0 cals, then in 10 weeks, you'd lose 10 lbs. But I've never heard anyone say that happens in the real world.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Thats the thing, exercise diminishes with age. So it would mean that we all get obese when we age if the exercise idea was true. Exercise is good, but its level is not sustainable generally speaking. You need to base your solution to something that doesn't involve exercise.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Hardwired not hardened. Thank you spellchecker.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 03:49 PM

CICO is only true in the broad sense because no one can hardened themselves with a calorimeter - yet. The 24 hour fast once a week idea might work in the broad picture, provided it wasn't compensated for by overeating and lethargy on other days. In a 24 hour window basal metabolism wouldn't shut down to a sparing level. Interesting idea.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:34 PM

One of the things about Taubes that I dislike is his slighting of the importance of activity. I'm glad that you can sit and study for 10 hours and stay lean, but "calories out" means being active. The more you do the more you eat. It's a behavior I had to relearn, and I can only hope that I will practice the modified behavior long enough to sustain it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:53 PM

I do think that exercise will speed up weight loss if done correctly. Overdooing it will not help.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 22, 2011
at 04:15 PM

Well, the problem is, you can bet on that compensatory mechanisms as akman noted.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 22, 2011
at 09:12 PM

Plus on maj......

2
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on December 07, 2010
at 01:29 PM

I just really wanted to thank you all for your knowledgeable, insightful and well thought out answers to my question. Responding to everyone really helped me flesh out the question I was really looking at here. I am comfortable continuing to log my food and giving myself caloric boundries because I know that is what I need to do to keep myself from gaining the weight back.

2
1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:09 PM

I personally believe that calories in and out are important and do matter. I second the law of thermodynamics post. My addition is the thermic effect of food (TEF.) A slice of wonderbread vs some carrots for the same amount of carbs/calories would not result in the same effect since our bodies do not have to process the bread as much to receive the energy. I would refer you to Martin Berkhan on this topic. Check out this post: http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

Martin explains the thermic effect of food in his 1st bullet point. Very informative.

I have not lost weight eating unrestricted paleo; but that was never my main goal. I actually tend to gain weight eating paleo foods that are more processed like soups and stews. I tend to lose weight and feel leaner eating more around chunks of meat and vegetables.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:15 PM

Thanks Jake! I can't get to that link right now. (I have the weirdest filter at work, blogs are bad/message boards ok? LOL.) I am not looking to lose anymore either, I just want to maintain. I do know that different foods are burned in different ways and I've have to play with those ratios. I had to do that while losing too, which is how I ended up high protein, moderate carb.

2
667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:00 PM

taking in more calories than you expend will add weight to your body, yes. Fact. The question Taubes deals with is why so many people's metabolism/hormonal state is such that it drives them to overconsume when they are lean, thus resulting in overweight. His book is tremendous and im excited that he's blogging and releasing another book now.

And you can gain weight eating anything. I am absolutely strict paleo - no grain, dairy, or legume. All meat and salady veg. I dont even eat starch. None. But im on a Starting Strength program and am eating BIG. Prolly in the 4k-5k cals/day range. I started the program at 154 lbs and Friday i was at 165, 11 lb gain in about one month. Im still looking to gain. Im seeing how long i can keep upping my cals, gaining weight, making progress with my poundage on strict paleo. If i stall out, ill start adding sweet potato, etc.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:10 PM

Thanks Ben! I can't imagine eating that much! Though I probably did when I gained all the weight.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:52 AM

Appreciate that Ben! Maintenance is hard and all about the tweaking for me, which I like to over think! I love all the input around here, it's been mind opening!

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 07, 2010
at 12:04 AM

@sherpa, yeah, well like all things you get used to it. It did take some adjusting for me but you can be sneaky like instead of an ounce steak you go twelve ounces, etc. Things like that add up. I also dip pieces of meat in liquid coconut oil. But then again, im weird:) Anyhow, great pics, you're doing awesome looks like

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

@Aaron, oh yes im very familiar with his site. In fact I follow a program that he'd probably dig. Its simply Rippetoe's Starting Strength program, which is simple the big classic exercises: squats, press, bench press, deadlift, and then the clean from oly lifting. I dont do the higher carb eating on my off days that i think leangains recommends. I dont argue it, i believe that that guy knows his stuff totally, i just am progressing nicely on my strict paleo and lifting program as it is.

1cbb6b2a813475d6c0b17fd5e898dc50

(1248)

on December 07, 2010
at 01:25 PM

LOL...that's a lot of food, I am also starting a muscle building cycle. Ever seen the leangains blog? Martin is a trainer who helps people gain muscle why keeping body fat low. http://www.leangains.com/ Martin Berkhan has made quite a name for himself on the blogosphere.

2
1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:53 PM

Why not try not counting as a personal trial? Data always helps me more then theory.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:56 PM

I want to, which is why I'm asking the question. It's hard to explain, but its all mental. As a formerly obese person I have a LOT of food issues. I worked through most of them over the last 6 years, but the idea of giving myself free reign is kind of scary.

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:23 PM

If it helps I am the same height and started paleo as a one month exercise at 185. I lost almost 20 lbs in the first month and have been steadily losing (one week nothing, the next week two pounds) for another month. All without counting and with indulging as much as I like in paleo foods.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:10 PM

Thanks Vrimj, I think what I've decided is that due to my own personal food addiction issues, calorie counting keeps me inline and in touch with what I am putting in my body. Maybe I need to think of it as more food logging, than calorie counting! Yes. I think that's what it is.

1
0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:27 PM

In her book "The Obesity Epidemic" Zoe Harcome fervently denies the calorie-in-equals-calorie-out theorie. I'm reading her book at the moment - very interesting...

I'm eating about 2000 to 3000 kcal a day (vLCHF) and am constantly losing about 2 kg a month... (I'm a female and heigth 5' 6")

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:41 PM

LCHF started in Sweden and came over to Germany. Standard carb intake is about 20 - 30 g. But if loosing weight gets difficult, going lower is recommended. LCHF includes dairy, eggs, various vegetables and nuts. But I eat mostly meat, fish and greens - that's perfect to me...

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:03 PM

I just can't discount it entirely, because it did work for me. What is vLCHF? I have personally tested my calorie counting and after about 1500 I have always gained weight. I do think I may have permanently messed up my metabolism with the up and down and various diets over the years.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:12 PM

Thank you! I am still new to some of the lingo around here. I am consistently adding fat right now, but it is very new to me. I never counted it while calorie counting, but I never actually tried to eat it. Yesterday I made REAL bacon and then cooked my eggs in the fat. It was very liberating. :)

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on December 06, 2010
at 08:07 PM

Kikilula, is that an official or quasi-official way of designating things in Germany? That VLC is under 5g of carbs a day? I've always found these designations kind of fluid, and I'm totally OK with that, but in any event I would have thought that even under 20g (or even 30) a day would count as VLC.

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 07:05 PM

I was on my first diet at age 9. Can't count all diets that followed . Now I'm 47 and finally found my WOE. It's the food I desired as a kid: fatty meats ;-)

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:55 PM

vLCHF = very LowCarb HighFat, that is under 5 g of carbs a day, moderat protein (100 to 150 g) and high fat, at least 200 g a day. LCHF is about regulating your weight to normal - underweight persons will gain musclemass, overweight persons will lose fat... Losing weight with calorie restriction is in fact starving. If you give up starving, your body will gain weight, because it expects that you may soon be starving angain. If you restrict carbs to a minimum and eat fat in excess, after a while you body trusts you, that there won't be no more starving and gets rid of excess fat by burning.

1
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:27 PM

You need to get Gary Taubes new book

Why we Get Fat and read his new blog. http://www.garytaubes.com/blog/

You simply can only gain weight if you consume anything that converts to sugar in the gut and then that sugar energy source is ready to use...and if you don't use it right now...the body stores the excess in your cells as fat. Eating fat does not convert to sugar...therefore the body cannot store anything as fat. If not used...it becomes waste and exits the body. If you stay full paleo you cannot regain the weight. Period.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on December 06, 2010
at 03:34 PM

I love this answer. I did just buy Good Calories, Bad Calories and I'm working my way through it. Its part of what made me ask the question. I don't think the new one is out yet, but I also thought I should start with the first book. Mentally, I understand the research (somewhat)... but I can't seem to convince myself yet. It's a hard transition for me.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on December 07, 2010
at 07:38 PM

Mascarpone and heavy cream, with not carbs per se, made me gain weight. My caloric intake was 1000/1500+ above my needs.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Jae, surely you are not saying you are looking to gain 20 lbs of fat? If you mean muscle, then I think we are talking about different things.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on December 06, 2010
at 04:29 PM

"If you stay full Paleo you cannot regain the weight. Period." This strikes me as unlikely. I've gained 18 lbs. and am looking to gain another 20, mostly Paleo with some whey protein. This is on high-fat low-carb, too. Of course, it's debatable how one defines "full Paleo."

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 05:11 PM

This is simply false. I deliberately overate one a zero carb diet and gained twenty pounds. Taubes assertion that you can't get fat without dietary carbohydrate is incorrect and I wish he'd stop making it. Usually he seems to be good about asking for experiments and going with experimental data so I don't get why he would continue to assert something so easily testable without looking for evidence. And as a result, this answer's account of fat storage is simply incorrect.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 06, 2010
at 06:38 PM

It's false in general, but it's true for some people. You just have to find out whether you are one or not.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:28 PM

pfw & Jae: I think I will stick with Gary and Dr. Davis, and Stephan, and Dr Kurt Harris, and Ned Kock and Chris Masterjohn, Drs Eades...and many others who understand the basic physiology and chemistry of the body. If one wants to overeat and convert the protein or whey to glucose to store as fat..go right ahead and do that. We are talking normal people who do not gorge on whey protein...they just want to insure they never go back to their SAD. And the best way normal people can do that is to avoid spiking their blood sugar.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 06, 2010
at 11:58 PM

Now you're moving the goalposts; you made several completely inaccurate claims about human physiology which none of the men you cite would agree with. I suggest you read them a little more carefully. FWIW Kurt Harris explicitly disagreed with Taubes when I asked him to comment on Taubes' "you can't get fat from fat" claim. Your claim that fat must be converted to sugar before being stored as fat is just flat out wrong; but don't take my word for it, go try to find the metabolic pathway that accomplishes what you claim in any physiology textbook, or by asking the doctors you cite.

0
286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

on October 22, 2011
at 07:26 AM

I am living proof that Cal in does NOT equal out - less than 15 gms carbs a day and about 500 -600 calories - not one KG lost and have done this a few times but doing it now for about 8 wks - I think Cortisol and Leptin are still high

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 22, 2011
at 01:26 PM

With all due respect, this is not possible. Have your RMR measured and/or have your fluid balance status looked at.

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:46 PM

My mom gained a lot of weight not eating much. Cal-in, Cal-out certainly didn't work for her, either.

286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

(1288)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:21 AM

Its possible - trust me - I am monitored by a professional too! http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/10/i-eliminated-wheat-and-i-didnt-lose-weight.html

0
Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:25 AM

i count how many sausages i ate

0
5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on October 22, 2011
at 12:13 AM

1st law of thermo, yo

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