24

votes

An Inconvenient Truth #1: Does low-carb "work" simply because packaged foods are high-carb?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created September 30, 2011 at 7:38 PM

Have you been following the great carb debate?

This debate has elicited excellent opinions from Stephan Guyenet, Peter at Hyperlipid, and Kurt Harris. In a nutshell, they discuss the "carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity", with respect to the interplay between ingested carbohydrate (refined or not), insulin, and bodyfat. Some of the best insight has been from J. Stanton, regarding lack of metabolic flexibility in obese and formerly obese.

Let's take a step back from the science, and apply Occam's razor. Let's say all of humanity was part of a trial conducted by an alien race. How would they describe the food available to us? It is not rat chow separated into high carb and low carb. It is a cafeteria diet. But that term doesn't really capture the gist of it. The most abundant foods, that are the easiest to overeat, are made up of primarily...

Carbohydrate!

Doritos. Cheetos. Oreos. Mike and Ikes. Coke. Dr. Pepper.

So what happens when you put someone on a low-carb diet? They can't eat the above foods. Weight loss happens. But what if grocery store shelves were stocked not with Doritos and Oreos, but with coconut pancakes and pork rinds? These easily eatable, palatable foods would be fat-laden and fairly "paleo". And for many people (me), the only thing stopping me from overeating on high-fat low carb paleo is that I have to cook the food myself. If stores and restaurants had delicious fat-bomb paleo concoctions, I'd gain 20 pounds in a New York minute. The literature on carb vs fat satiety is conflicting, but fat is typically not magically satiating.

What does this mean? One implication is that perhaps some low-carbers paleos are being unnecessarily hesitant to up their carbs. Sure, metabolic derangement does mean something. But it does not mean that the laws of physics get circumvented. Treat your experimental higher-carb period as if you were in a metabolic ward. My hunch is that a few extra grams of carbs will not lead to gaining ten pounds in a month. The reason is that paleo folks cannot use "higher carb" as an excuse to eat Doritos. They still must eat paleo foods.

The crux of the issue might be to make sure your extra carbs are not hyperpalatable. Eat a plain sweet potato. Aravind and I are 1.5 months into a low-reward experiment, and find it almost impossible to overeat bland carbs. Weight loss if effortless, regardless of macronutrient ratios. But food reward is a whole other ball of wax...

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on April 10, 2013
at 03:19 AM

maybe its fructose? the trace amts in vegs (tomatoes esp, or fructans in starch)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:15 PM

I'm sure you know..

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:30 PM

... since wheat has nothing to offer apart from energy. To be honest, you can find many sorts of bread here, some are of finest quality and perhaps even healthy for local folks.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:26 PM

... since wheat has nothing to offer apart from energy. To be honest, you can find many sorts of bread here, some are of finest quality and perhaps even healthy.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:25 PM

Thx Rose for sharing that story. Bakehouse is local junk food, its not that bad as Mc Donalds, very far from it, but its still lots of toxic wheat in question. Brad is here so much used that some people can't eat anything without it, even soup or spaghetti. Its indeed interesting how we don't have more obese people - looking at people at street, obesity is rare phenomena, and people tend to get a bit fattier at later age, like 50+, particularly women. I guess its some genetic thing, some adaptation to high level of starch. Or, malnutrition, which doesn't strike you so bad when u are young....

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 05:52 PM

Thank you for this response. I think it is important and appreciate your sharing it. +1

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on October 01, 2011
at 04:23 PM

I was referring more to the food reward idea generally. I think obese people prolly do have hormonal signaling issues going on that make losing weight quite difficult. But I think that the default healthy person of lean body composition with no outstanding health issues will start getting overweight due to our overly tasty food in a society that views food as reward, celebration etc. That beginning of gaining weight then starts off the cascade of leptin-, ghrelin-, etc issues that lead to obesity. In my lay person's mind at any rate.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:22 PM

(continued) work with quadriplegics, you can handle any kind of rehab/mobility issues that exist, and of course his were substantial and risk for injury to the patient as well as the staff was high. He was NOT SCI. Given the nature of the facility and specialties that were a part of his care, he was in good hands.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:18 PM

(con't) hospitalized who really NEEDED longer term help. Be clear that I have no doubt that if more sophisticated testing had been available, this guy would almost certainly have come up with a genetic or other condition that was causing this.He was clearly an outlier! The safety reasons were that we had to lash two bed together for him and his movement was quite impaired, and this was a HUGE ward. He needed to be more closely monitored. In actuality, this ward had nothing to do with weight loss. It was a highly specialized spinal cord injury unit. We got him because when you are trained to

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:12 PM

"continued) There is a well justified argument today against "going for optimum" because the odds are so, so, low that this can be maintained. As for the 600lb fellow in the room with the camera...This was in the early 80's and it was not research. He ended up in that special room for safety reasons. This was a governmentally funded 1200 bed hospital and treatment was very progressive. Also, it was back in the days where diagnostic related groups and all that crap was coming into being, but because of the facility and the difference between care now and then, we could actually keep people

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:07 PM

@Kamal: And I really do totally "get" your question. It's just that for those of us who have been living this from the inside out, IF we have by hookie or crookie managed to be successful, it is because we have learned the science, quite literally, through our bodies. And quite frankly, I understand some of the "why" this is not talked about much, even by those in the research+clinical community. It's tough stuff. I sometimes do wonder if I'd known what I know today, upfront, how things might be different. Would I have ever persisted in driving myself down to a truly optimum weight?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Majekinator, my ancestors' obesity history matches your story. My birth mother's people are all from Slovenia/Croatia, and as far back as I have pictures of them (to the 1930s), the women are fat (except for the one T1 diabetic). They lived on a farm in Wisconsin when they emigrated here, and I'm sure they ate the same hearty, starchy, potato-and-cabbage based food here that they did at home. Doritos didn't exist yet. I'm sure the advent of junk food and candy everywhere isn't helping this epidemic, but (some) people were getting fat on potatoes and bread long before junk food ever appeared.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:34 PM

Ben, that might be true for people who have a few pounds to lose. I don't think overeating per se has much to do with the development of serious overweight or obesity, though. If we can accept that some people (T1 diabetics come to mind) can eat crazy amounts of food and put on no weight at all, I wonder why it's too complicated to entertain the notion that something other than *over*-eating is going on in the greatly overweight and the obese?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:14 PM

The next step was to feed all that data I generated about myself to a data mining machine that would find patterns for me based on what I eat, atmospheric pressure, daily temperature etc... but I will probably give it up since its hard to do and I almost have no health problem left. Low carb + supplements really made a difference to complete body status.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:13 PM

The next step was to feed data all that data to data mining machine that would find patterns for me based on what I eat, atmospheric pressure, daily temperature etc... but I will probably give it up since its hard to do and I almost have no health problem left. Low carb + supplements really made a difference to complete body status.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Some people really can't believe that I do all that, but... its similar to game for me, like farmville or something like that ;) As a programmer, I know value of logs - for instance, I am now trying to build data mining algorythims for all that data that will find patterns for me depending on what I did eat, temperature, etc...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:05 PM

As you can see, its all documented: complete dairy log for 2 months and complete weight log for almost a year with every day morning measurement. Not to mention, I have clinical markers log for last 6 years so you can see how it influenced my cholesterol, immunity and hormones during very long time.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:01 PM

I kept dairy log during that time, together with weight charts. Take a look at it, char is just last 25 lbs: http://goo.gl/ktN4W http://goo.gl/fotKT . The dairy log is on Serbian, but you can see its detailed up to a glass of water, level of sunshine and personal notes about feelings and sympthoms.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:56 PM

My results were a bit different, probably because I was overweight since very young age. After removing sodas I dropped maybe 10lbs but then I stopped. After I reduced bread it dropped 2-4 libs. When I removed it completely, with rice and potato, underlined beta oxidation supplements (my previous priority was immunity which is different set of supplements) and introduced 30 mins of walking I dropped 30 lbs in 6 months.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:53 PM

BTW, in Serbia, people seriously eat bread. Its typical for everybody to eat 300-500g of bread per day. Too many people it doesn't present much of a problem, particularly those that are young but its also typical that overweight people just remove bread and sodas and reduce weight by around 20 lbs without any other intervention.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:49 PM

... in last 3 years.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Yes, I opted for othomolecular medicine and learn about it everything I can. I was constant at the doctor with array of chronic and autoimmune diseases until I started to do that. Not to mention that I didn't even sneeze once.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:33 PM

Wowza-- good answer, good background of your diet, good research. I've seen some of that research before, and it is very interesting. But the thing I'm most interested in is the 600 pound obese person with a camera in the room, who lost only 1-2 pounds a month on 800 kcal/day. If you find this written up in a journal, please do put the link here. I will totally edit my question (the other one about eating less fat to lose weight, not this one). I've had a little bit of experience working in a weight loss clinic, and that kind of experience would totally change my viewpoint.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:24 PM

You are quite the supplementer, majkinetor! Look forward to you updating the other thread in the future.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:09 PM

The only change now related to my previous intake is a) No sodas b) rare wheat and no bread c) lots of supplements d) less industrial food, but

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:08 PM

No more fat then people around me. Now I eat more protein then ever, and triple the fat then ever.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Nio sweets, and fruits. I was fat from the age 2, since my mom was feeding me lots of carbs. The only time when I was not fat was between age 14 and 16, and now.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:04 PM

This whole issue is simpler than so many are making it. Food that tastes too damn good will make most people eat too much of it. "too much" meaning an amount that will manifest as bodyfat gain. That "too much" can come from any macronutrient. Yes, most of the food that tastes unnaturally good in the US is carb-heavy but most of them also contain fat and protein. In the US at least we grow up surrounded by stuff that tastes too good and view food as reward instead of fuel to an unhealthy point.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:04 PM

so you became obese with potatoes and bread? No fat, sweets, extravagant dishes?

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 12:59 PM

@Rose: As I had my morning coffee, I read your comments. Coming to the 3rd section made me cry, and as I read it again, I am again tearing up...especially because of this: "No; I lost the weight because the intervention was biologically appropriate and correct; my character, for better or worse, had not a goddamn thing to do with it." <3 <3 <3 to you, dear Rose.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:20 AM

One final thing: When I was low-cal dieting and failing to lose, people then (and now) insisted that I was somehow "cheating," and that's why I failed. So when I successfully -- finally! -- lost 70+ pounds on VLC/XLC/ZC, was it because I suddenly, in my forties, developed a strength of character that I had never had before? Or did I suddenly learn to count or track my food correctly? No; I lost the weight because the intervention was biologically appropriate and correct; my character, for better or worse, had not a goddamn thing to do with it.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:16 AM

This is a problem -- this viewpoint blindness -- that transcends categories like "Paleo" and "low carb." On every diet/health forum I've been on or real-life group I've been in, this very inability on the part of easy losers to simply *believe* the experience of the hard losers divides the group. Sadly, it also drives most of the research, despite results like the Stanford A-Z study, where some people in the low-cal group didn't lose at all, whereas most people in the low-carb group lost at least something. (I believe it was the Stanford study; I'll try to find that post-mortem.)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:11 AM

Brilliant, mem. All of it, but especially your reporting on the two morbidly obese, starving people who lost relatively minute amounts of weight. This is the reality that those who've only ever had 10-20 vanity pounds to lose never see. It's not personal; it's not an "it's a fat person thing" type of deal. It's that if you haven't seen it or lived it, you simply don't believe it, and so keep looking in the wrong places -- willpower, character, exercise, self-control, "reward" -- for the problem, and the answer.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:00 AM

I second Olivia's point. This supposed link between micronutrients and hunger is obviously appealing (just eat food full of 'goodness' and your hunger will disappear), bu there doesn't seem to be any evidence presented for it at all. I do recall and recognise a study showing that a multivitamin helped weight loss, but why not think that this is to do with improving metabolism in various ways rather than satisfying hunger. If hunger really did follow the micronutients one'd expect a lot of people to crave multivitamins and pass up heavy cream, which doesn't seem to happen.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 05:46 AM

Oh, forgot one thing...why do I do low carb? Well, because it works...and I am going to have to live with the metabolism of a radically weight reduced person for the rest of my life. I really like feeling satisfied and full. I really like not feeling the MUCH greater incidence and intensity of HUNGER - REAL HUNGER - that is the norm for significantly weight reduced people, which only get worse with every passing year. Fats and protein and lots of low carb veggies make it happen for me. I am into as little self torture as possible. :) Not feeling gnawing hunger is a beautiful thing.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 01, 2011
at 05:23 AM

I'll give you plus one since I actually took the time to read this entire post. ;)

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:13 AM

Mem-in other words (I see that my answer is lacking) I had put on extra water weight because of the carbs. Once I feel that way, I figure, if I'm going to be fat, I might as well enjoy some junk food. Little did I know that I would only get fatter!

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:11 AM

Mem-it is possible, but I had been doing the sweet potatoes and chocolate for about 6 weeks without problems prior to the binge. It is noteworthy, however, that prior to adding the sweet potatoes and chocolate, I was VLC without any cravings whatsoever for approximately 9 months (no "cheats"). But I do think it was because of the higher carbs that I put on bloated water during that time of the month weight, was on vacay, and decided effit, I'm eating some junk.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 03:05 AM

Annie, is it *possible* that the addition of sweet potatoes and choclate had anything to do with spurring your binge?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:43 AM

@Annie, I ~always~ count calories. I know I am mainly gaining water when the carbs go up, not fat, but my body just doesn't deal with them as well anymore. I would guess that I wouldn't gain fat if I ate 1200 calories of carbs and nothing else, but it wouldn't be pretty.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:41 AM

Yeah, I don't even know what the PSMF did to me, but it wasn't good. I'm sure it's from my screwed up metabolism, I know it works great for many people.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:38 AM

Does this carb intolerance also apply if you count calories?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:54 AM

Darn you, Protein Sparing Modified Farce. One day, we will do a diet together. That's my MO -- together diets.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:36 AM

As long as I keep my calories the same nothing changes weight-wise. I have different cravings and issues, but the number one thing for me is calories. I did the PSMF, so that was zero fat, extremely low carb and it really messed me up. I lost the weight while I did it for the two weeks, then went back up. It actually moved my set point UP, which hasn't happened in 7 years.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:19 AM

That's because you're special Melissa, everybody knows that :) I'm in the extreme minority, but I believe in crash dieting. The reason is this: crash dieting allows you to make stronger conclusions on different macronutrient mixes than a more moderate diet. So I've gone super high carb super low fat, and have also done the reverse. If you ate very little fat and moderate carb at the moment, do you think your weight would go bananas?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:10 AM

I don't normally have energy problems on VLC or ZC with any of the above. However, when I went above 25g, I would get tremendously tired, as well as fat and depressed.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:09 AM

It varies a lot. I have three boys ages 2 - 10 years, so baseline is moderate, what with walking to school, etc. Plus, I don't currently have the use of a car. Over the last few years, sometimes I have done an hour of aerobic exercise 2-7 times a week. Sometimes I have done heavy weight lifting 1-2 times a week. Sometimes I've done practically nothing.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 30, 2011
at 11:34 PM

25g...how active would you say you are?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on September 30, 2011
at 10:55 PM

Oh, I'd say a spoonful of olive oil vs bacon fat vs butter would all digest at the same rate. Stomach acid doesn't play favorites based on micronutrients. The big difference is that the animal fats taste better. They are - I hate to say it - more rewarding.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on September 30, 2011
at 10:41 PM

I appreciate this question and can provide anecdotal evidence for support: Went low-carb, lost a bunch of weight, added in sweet potatoes and dark chocolate with no problem. Had one 24-hour binger on pita bread, cookies, chips, etc. (anything I wanted) and instantly gained 10 pounds OVERNIGHT. Sure, it might have been water weight, but it took me three weeks to lose it. There is something toxic about that food, not just carbs in general.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on September 30, 2011
at 10:40 PM

I appreciate this question and can provide antecdotal evidence for support: Went low-carb, lost a bunch of weight, added in sweet potatoes and dark chocolate with no problem. Had one 24-hour binger on pita bread, cookies, chips, etc. (anything I wanted) and instantly gained 10 pounds OVERNIGHT. Sure, it might have been water weight, but it took me three weeks to lose it. There is something toxic about that food.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on September 30, 2011
at 09:41 PM

"Satiety has a lot to do with nutritional contents" I see this repeated very often in the paleosphere as if it were fact, but I have never seen this claim backed up with any substantial amount of real evidence, only vague anecdotes from the poster.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 30, 2011
at 09:03 PM

Kamal, on this one I agree with you. It's virtually impossible to eat as many calories on primal as you were eating on SAD, particularly if you were addicted to soda and chips. So avoiding packaging is a great way to avoid over-stimulation of your appetite.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:59 PM

Heh. You *are* a lucky bastard.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:56 PM

During the stricter times I would eat no more than 25g of carbohydrate from salads and vegetables. I don't know what volume that was exactly. I suppose it could have been 5 cups of mixed greens with some tomato slices, cucumbers, and a homemade dressing of balsamic vinegar, olive oil, dill and garlic. Sometimes I'd add feta cheese. Other vegetables were mostly cruciferous, but also mushrooms, onions, garlic. Maybe 2-3 cups.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:42 PM

Here's a related inconvenient truth. Being hungry is paleo. The various LC approaches to suppress hunger are counterfeits of the effect of junk food. Eat lots of fat and you achieve satiation, carbs or no carbs.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:32 PM

What volume of salad and vegetables are we talking about per day?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:11 PM

now that i think about it, i could eat plain boiled potatoes as a child also. hmmm... gonna go home and try tonight.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:04 PM

That's true, there is a lot of LC junk food now. And some people will not lose while eating it, though others seem to do fine. There could be many explanations for this. I'm betting it's the sweeteners. Probably they still raise insulin in at least some people.

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on September 30, 2011
at 07:48 PM

Anyway, nice observations. It's true that lc limits junk food, which is usually high carb. Otherwise, for years now there is also lc "junk food" available and eaten by low-carbers. Though, I dunno if they gain much weight.

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on September 30, 2011
at 07:46 PM

I do overeat plain sweet potato. Okay, I am normal weight, but constant carb hunger is insane.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 30, 2011
at 07:41 PM

Kamal Balboa.....:)

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9 Answers

13
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 07:58 PM

I truly wish it were that simple for me. My diet before going ZC was essentially the same as it is now, except I had homemade salads and low carb vegetables. I was stuck at 50 lbs heavier than where I am now.

I've always loved to cook and use "real" ingredients. I never really liked or ate much of the foods you mentioned. I find soda, oreos, Mike and Ike's, and Cheetos disgusting, and pretty much always have. I do have an ice cream weakness, but I don't think that was the crux of my problem.

Also, I don't have trouble overeating plain starch. Plain unsalted unbuttered boiled potatoes were one of my favourite foods as a child.

I'm sure cutting out refined foods explains the effectiveness of LC for some people, but not for me.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 30, 2011
at 11:34 PM

25g...how active would you say you are?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:11 PM

now that i think about it, i could eat plain boiled potatoes as a child also. hmmm... gonna go home and try tonight.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:59 PM

Heh. You *are* a lucky bastard.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:09 AM

It varies a lot. I have three boys ages 2 - 10 years, so baseline is moderate, what with walking to school, etc. Plus, I don't currently have the use of a car. Over the last few years, sometimes I have done an hour of aerobic exercise 2-7 times a week. Sometimes I have done heavy weight lifting 1-2 times a week. Sometimes I've done practically nothing.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:56 PM

During the stricter times I would eat no more than 25g of carbohydrate from salads and vegetables. I don't know what volume that was exactly. I suppose it could have been 5 cups of mixed greens with some tomato slices, cucumbers, and a homemade dressing of balsamic vinegar, olive oil, dill and garlic. Sometimes I'd add feta cheese. Other vegetables were mostly cruciferous, but also mushrooms, onions, garlic. Maybe 2-3 cups.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:10 AM

I don't normally have energy problems on VLC or ZC with any of the above. However, when I went above 25g, I would get tremendously tired, as well as fat and depressed.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:32 PM

What volume of salad and vegetables are we talking about per day?

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on April 10, 2013
at 03:19 AM

maybe its fructose? the trace amts in vegs (tomatoes esp, or fructans in starch)

11
Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 05:15 AM

Kamal, you've loaded this question from many, many directions. So, I am going to be selective and give you some information or food for thought, on just a couple. I partciularly take issue with this statement:

"Sure, metabolic derangement does mean something. But it does not mean that the laws of physics get circumvented."

I'd love to know just what that "something" is in your mind, that metabolic derangement means.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Energy%20expenditure%20in%20obese%20vs%20slim%20non%20dieters

I am largely going to use an example of 2 or 3 other paleo women here, all much younger than myself, who are radical weight loss maintainers. This means, for my definition here, that we have lost in excess of 100 lbs and kept *it* off. This puts us in the 3% club off ALL who lose weight, meaning that only 3% are able to keep it off. 3 of us were never "doritos, cheetos, Dr. Pepper" etc consumers. Two of these battled the weight beast from early childhood. Two others of us, including myself, did not have issues until our early teens and then they were not "big weight" issues. Both of us had events or series of events in our growing up that are well known to affect neurobiology, which I would say figured heavily in our eventual obesity.

During the time I first became signifcantly overweight, I was on the board of an all organic co-op and lived in an area where the local supermarket also had abundant organic foods, free range chickens and grassfed beef. This was in the mid 1980's. I cooked primarily from scratch and ate all foodgroups, with grains being very sparing. I did use cooking oils like safflower, oliveoil and canola oil. I rarely ate fried food that was flouered . I ate frozen food if fresh of what I wanted was unavailable. I ate potatoes, corn, all kinds of legumes, and meat. I also raised my own chickens and ate them and their eggs. Compared to average Americans, I ate very little preprocessed stuff, though i did eat some, and ate some pretty dense caloric stuff like trail mix and dried fruit, along with regular fresh fruit. I grew up never having sodas and during these years drank diet sodas at a rate of probably a sixpack over two weeks. I drank some fruit juice. I juiced alot of fruit juice myself.

I also worked a work schedule during these years where I constantly flipped between dayshift, swing shift and nightshift. I was a single parent and had to pick my child up from his school up in the mountains at about 2:30P and it was a 30min trip up the mountain. i have never been a great sleeper and any noise wakes me up and once I am awake, typically, no matter how tired i am, there is no returning to sleep. During this time, which was several years in duration, I probably averaged 4-5 hours of broken sleep a day.I soon found myself about 30lbs overweight. I was in my early and mid thirties. I got the weight off doing a "food combining" diet that gradually transitioned into a vegetarian diet, whihc became a pescatarina diet for me as hypoglcemia made its entrance into mylife. I believe this is when my metabolism first began becoming deranged.

Second bout was when I was in the Arctic. At least 50% of the meat i ate, and often a greater percentage of that was caribou that was given to me in whole backquarters, abundantly supplemented with salmon that my s/o got from Kodiak +crab.There was also seal and whale organ meat, whale fat +skin as available. Again, eating from all food groups, relying very heavily on frozen veggies often, some fruits, and all kinds of corn, potatoes, legumes, as well as trail mix stuff I ate at work and organic tear off the top soups which were typically beans. Pasta in the form of spahghetti, homemade, about every wek to two weeks. Bottle cranberry juice. Bananas and peanut butter sometimes for breakfast.

And years of very hairy work schedules(never less than a 10-12 hour work day over 9 years) and other BIG stressors. Did I overeat sometimes? Indeed I did. And what I remember most, is how quickly the fat came on, and then how I was "ever-hungry." And I mean EVER-HUNGRY. I have rarely eaten candy in my entire life. I do like choclate and would sometimes have a chocolate bar as an "event" or ice cream.

All of this blabbing is to say that my diet looked pretty darned stunning, as far as REAL FOOD compared to about 95% of America at that time (in the 80's or 90's) as well as now. I didn't get fat on doritos. Obesity is absolutely a heterogeneous disorder and there is certainly a substantial and growing, in my opinion, "doritos group." But to suppose that this is the only or even primary group is a very facile assumption.

Metabolic derangement is very, very real. And indeed, it ends up defying the laws of physics. You are well read and you have read JS Stanton's work, Peter's work and others. If you don't read Arya Sharma's blog, you should. Sharma gets what we, the obese and post obese in particular, have learned through effort most cannot even comprehend. When UCSF treats obese people, and they usually don't even consider ppl for "diets" who are over about the 70lb or so overweight range, they treat them with either an 800cal , 1200 or 1400 cal diet. The very obese who might reject surgical interventions are always put on the 800cal diet because they are going to have to live on a 1200-1400 cal diet for the rest of their lives, and at least this will be a step up!(You are talking about people who if not formerly obese or weight reduced, would eat an average of 2000 cals and if exercising, add 300 or so to that.) If they don't, they will regain. And we are not even talking about people who necessarily get to an optimum weight. We are talking about anyone who is obese/morbidly obese and loses a substantial amount of weight. Those who go to optimal are the very, very, very rare. And as the National Weight Registry tells us (which was originally full of low-fat, high carb losers, but now has substantial numbers of low carbers) the typical amount of time spent in exercise daily is in excess of one hour, seven days per week to prevent regain. This is REALITY.

To answer your foolishly reductionistic fat-person-with-an-iv question, I have taken care of two obese people I will never forget. One was a 500lb woman who had been starving herself for two years. Her husband was older than she and retired and was with her 24/7. He purchased all food. He cooked. She never went anywhere other than from the bedroom to livingroom or bathroom. For two years, she starved herself, to the tune of NO food for as many days as she could stand, with only water, and then only broths and if he could stuff it down her some cottage cheese. When she was admitted to the hospital, she was a horribly ill person with constant diarrhea. In TWO years of constant starvation, she had lost 50lbs. She was in horrifying nutritional condition. How much would YOU lose if you ate maybe, at most, 800cals a WEEK for TWO YEARS?

Another man was a 600lber who was placed in a room with a camera and was on about an 800cal diet. He lost about one to two lbs a month. How much would YOU lose if you ate 800cals a day?

Your "fat-person-with-theIV" example makes me livid. These are real, suffering people.

Here's some interesting info to consider as well:

"This result, once again, kills the simplistic notion that body fat is determined exclusively by voluntary food consumption and exercise behaviors (sometimes called the "calories in, calories out" idea, or "gluttony and sloth"). In this case, a multivitamin was able to increase resting energy expenditure and cause fat loss without any voluntary changes in food intake or exercise, suggesting metabolic effects and a possible downward shift of the body fat "setpoint" due to improved nutrient status."

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/06/low-micronutrient-intake-may-contribute.html

"He is currently investigating the contribution of biochemical, neural, hormonal, and genetic influences in the expression of the current obesity epidemic both in children and adults. He has defined a syndrome of vagally-mediated beta-cell hyperactivity which leads to insulin hypersecretion and obesity, and which is treatable by insulin suppression. This phenomenon may occur in up to 20% of the obese population. He is interested in the hypothalamic signal transduction of insulin and leptin, how these two systems interact, and how hyperinsulinemia contributes to leptin resistance."

http://www.chc.ucsf.edu/coast/faculty_lustig.htm

"We are currently concentrating our research on the molecular mechanisms implicated in the hypothalamic effects of the adipocyte secreted, weight-regulating hormone, leptin. After describing the first leptin receptor mutation in severely obese humans, we found that genetic alterations in the Melanocortin 4 receptor (MC4R), a mediator of the hypothalamic effects of leptin, are responsible for a more common form of human obesity. Using large scale automated screening procedures we now further investigate the frequency of mutations in the MC4R gene in large cohorts of obese patients. In parallel we also search for obesity causing mutations in additional candidate genes downstream the leptin pathway. Finally, both through in vitro and in vivo studies we are aiming to understand how these mutations cause obesity and what the implications are for the treatment of this condition."

http://www.chc.ucsf.edu/coast/faculty_vaisse.htm

"His research into the role of stress hormones (glucocorticoids) in energy balance and obesity that originated during his graduate studies was continued in the Department of Physiology at UCSF, where he worked with Mary Dallman.

His research uses integrative physiological approaches to study the reciprocal interactions between brain and body in the regulation of metabolism and in the development of metabolic diseases, such as obesity, diabetes, and hepatic steatosis. His work explores two interrelated streams:

  1. The interplay between, and sites of action of, glucocorticoids and insulin in the regulation of energy balance, glucose homeostasis and the stress response and the effects of disrupting the ratio of these two hormones in the development of obesity and insulin resistance.

  2. The role of signaling in specific neuronal populations within the hypothalamus in the regulation of peripheral lipid metabolism, glucose homeostasis and energy balance, with special emphasis on the metabolic responses to different dietary conditions and stress."

I would say that the role of insulin in obesity is far, far from dead.

http://www.chc.ucsf.edu/coast/index.htm

Lastly, I am 10 years out in radical weight loss maintenance. I won't be eating any ##$%^!! potatoes, especially since all of Stephan's food reward theory work. I have decreased my reward over the last 5 years as far as it is going to go. Along with many other tools in my toolbox, it has been very helpful in my maintenace and the decrease of another 10lbs in the last year. But I've decided I will be dead and gone before I sit down to dinner with dry potatoes. You can eat mine!!! I'll stick to rutabagas, beets and nuts for my "carb up" days!

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:11 AM

Brilliant, mem. All of it, but especially your reporting on the two morbidly obese, starving people who lost relatively minute amounts of weight. This is the reality that those who've only ever had 10-20 vanity pounds to lose never see. It's not personal; it's not an "it's a fat person thing" type of deal. It's that if you haven't seen it or lived it, you simply don't believe it, and so keep looking in the wrong places -- willpower, character, exercise, self-control, "reward" -- for the problem, and the answer.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 12:59 PM

@Rose: As I had my morning coffee, I read your comments. Coming to the 3rd section made me cry, and as I read it again, I am again tearing up...especially because of this: "No; I lost the weight because the intervention was biologically appropriate and correct; my character, for better or worse, had not a goddamn thing to do with it." <3 <3 <3 to you, dear Rose.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:33 PM

Wowza-- good answer, good background of your diet, good research. I've seen some of that research before, and it is very interesting. But the thing I'm most interested in is the 600 pound obese person with a camera in the room, who lost only 1-2 pounds a month on 800 kcal/day. If you find this written up in a journal, please do put the link here. I will totally edit my question (the other one about eating less fat to lose weight, not this one). I've had a little bit of experience working in a weight loss clinic, and that kind of experience would totally change my viewpoint.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:07 PM

@Kamal: And I really do totally "get" your question. It's just that for those of us who have been living this from the inside out, IF we have by hookie or crookie managed to be successful, it is because we have learned the science, quite literally, through our bodies. And quite frankly, I understand some of the "why" this is not talked about much, even by those in the research+clinical community. It's tough stuff. I sometimes do wonder if I'd known what I know today, upfront, how things might be different. Would I have ever persisted in driving myself down to a truly optimum weight?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 01, 2011
at 05:23 AM

I'll give you plus one since I actually took the time to read this entire post. ;)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:22 PM

(continued) work with quadriplegics, you can handle any kind of rehab/mobility issues that exist, and of course his were substantial and risk for injury to the patient as well as the staff was high. He was NOT SCI. Given the nature of the facility and specialties that were a part of his care, he was in good hands.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:16 AM

This is a problem -- this viewpoint blindness -- that transcends categories like "Paleo" and "low carb." On every diet/health forum I've been on or real-life group I've been in, this very inability on the part of easy losers to simply *believe* the experience of the hard losers divides the group. Sadly, it also drives most of the research, despite results like the Stanford A-Z study, where some people in the low-cal group didn't lose at all, whereas most people in the low-carb group lost at least something. (I believe it was the Stanford study; I'll try to find that post-mortem.)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 05:46 AM

Oh, forgot one thing...why do I do low carb? Well, because it works...and I am going to have to live with the metabolism of a radically weight reduced person for the rest of my life. I really like feeling satisfied and full. I really like not feeling the MUCH greater incidence and intensity of HUNGER - REAL HUNGER - that is the norm for significantly weight reduced people, which only get worse with every passing year. Fats and protein and lots of low carb veggies make it happen for me. I am into as little self torture as possible. :) Not feeling gnawing hunger is a beautiful thing.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:12 PM

"continued) There is a well justified argument today against "going for optimum" because the odds are so, so, low that this can be maintained. As for the 600lb fellow in the room with the camera...This was in the early 80's and it was not research. He ended up in that special room for safety reasons. This was a governmentally funded 1200 bed hospital and treatment was very progressive. Also, it was back in the days where diagnostic related groups and all that crap was coming into being, but because of the facility and the difference between care now and then, we could actually keep people

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 10:20 AM

One final thing: When I was low-cal dieting and failing to lose, people then (and now) insisted that I was somehow "cheating," and that's why I failed. So when I successfully -- finally! -- lost 70+ pounds on VLC/XLC/ZC, was it because I suddenly, in my forties, developed a strength of character that I had never had before? Or did I suddenly learn to count or track my food correctly? No; I lost the weight because the intervention was biologically appropriate and correct; my character, for better or worse, had not a goddamn thing to do with it.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 04:18 PM

(con't) hospitalized who really NEEDED longer term help. Be clear that I have no doubt that if more sophisticated testing had been available, this guy would almost certainly have come up with a genetic or other condition that was causing this.He was clearly an outlier! The safety reasons were that we had to lash two bed together for him and his movement was quite impaired, and this was a HUGE ward. He needed to be more closely monitored. In actuality, this ward had nothing to do with weight loss. It was a highly specialized spinal cord injury unit. We got him because when you are trained to

5
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:06 PM

If we go on personal experience i have absolutely no reason to eat bland carbs. I've tried eating higher carb via potatoes and such and basically I just think it sucks. Not much taste AND displaces vegetables with higher nutritional value that I actually enjoy. Not scared of weight gain at all, its a matter of taste and nutrient displacement for me.

I can MAYBE stomach one potato a day, and thats still forcing myself to eat it. I would much prefer a variety of other vegetables to these starches. If I want carbs I call it a cheat meal and get some real pizza or pasta dish.

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:46 PM

I never did eat industrialized food nor is that typical in this part of the world. Just lot of potatoes, bread and little protein. I lost 40lbs without hunger or too much effort by doing 50 < CHO < 75 low carb and providing some supplements needed for beta oxidation and toxin clearance.

This is the lowest weight since I had since I was 15 and I have 34 now. I am also far less active now then before.

The same thing happened to pretty much everybody I know who started this type of life style seriously. The range of fat loss goes from 10lb - 100lb in circles around me. The diet could fail because of malnutrition mostly

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:26 PM

... since wheat has nothing to offer apart from energy. To be honest, you can find many sorts of bread here, some are of finest quality and perhaps even healthy.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:49 PM

... in last 3 years.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:56 PM

My results were a bit different, probably because I was overweight since very young age. After removing sodas I dropped maybe 10lbs but then I stopped. After I reduced bread it dropped 2-4 libs. When I removed it completely, with rice and potato, underlined beta oxidation supplements (my previous priority was immunity which is different set of supplements) and introduced 30 mins of walking I dropped 30 lbs in 6 months.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Yes, I opted for othomolecular medicine and learn about it everything I can. I was constant at the doctor with array of chronic and autoimmune diseases until I started to do that. Not to mention that I didn't even sneeze once.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:53 PM

BTW, in Serbia, people seriously eat bread. Its typical for everybody to eat 300-500g of bread per day. Too many people it doesn't present much of a problem, particularly those that are young but its also typical that overweight people just remove bread and sodas and reduce weight by around 20 lbs without any other intervention.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:24 PM

You are quite the supplementer, majkinetor! Look forward to you updating the other thread in the future.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:05 PM

As you can see, its all documented: complete dairy log for 2 months and complete weight log for almost a year with every day morning measurement. Not to mention, I have clinical markers log for last 6 years so you can see how it influenced my cholesterol, immunity and hormones during very long time.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:09 PM

The only change now related to my previous intake is a) No sodas b) rare wheat and no bread c) lots of supplements d) less industrial food, but

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:25 PM

Thx Rose for sharing that story. Bakehouse is local junk food, its not that bad as Mc Donalds, very far from it, but its still lots of toxic wheat in question. Brad is here so much used that some people can't eat anything without it, even soup or spaghetti. Its indeed interesting how we don't have more obese people - looking at people at street, obesity is rare phenomena, and people tend to get a bit fattier at later age, like 50+, particularly women. I guess its some genetic thing, some adaptation to high level of starch. Or, malnutrition, which doesn't strike you so bad when u are young....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:04 PM

so you became obese with potatoes and bread? No fat, sweets, extravagant dishes?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Some people really can't believe that I do all that, but... its similar to game for me, like farmville or something like that ;) As a programmer, I know value of logs - for instance, I am now trying to build data mining algorythims for all that data that will find patterns for me depending on what I did eat, temperature, etc...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Nio sweets, and fruits. I was fat from the age 2, since my mom was feeding me lots of carbs. The only time when I was not fat was between age 14 and 16, and now.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:13 PM

The next step was to feed data all that data to data mining machine that would find patterns for me based on what I eat, atmospheric pressure, daily temperature etc... but I will probably give it up since its hard to do and I almost have no health problem left. Low carb + supplements really made a difference to complete body status.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 06:30 PM

... since wheat has nothing to offer apart from energy. To be honest, you can find many sorts of bread here, some are of finest quality and perhaps even healthy for local folks.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 01, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Majekinator, my ancestors' obesity history matches your story. My birth mother's people are all from Slovenia/Croatia, and as far back as I have pictures of them (to the 1930s), the women are fat (except for the one T1 diabetic). They lived on a farm in Wisconsin when they emigrated here, and I'm sure they ate the same hearty, starchy, potato-and-cabbage based food here that they did at home. Doritos didn't exist yet. I'm sure the advent of junk food and candy everywhere isn't helping this epidemic, but (some) people were getting fat on potatoes and bread long before junk food ever appeared.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:01 PM

I kept dairy log during that time, together with weight charts. Take a look at it, char is just last 25 lbs: http://goo.gl/ktN4W http://goo.gl/fotKT . The dairy log is on Serbian, but you can see its detailed up to a glass of water, level of sunshine and personal notes about feelings and sympthoms.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:08 PM

No more fat then people around me. Now I eat more protein then ever, and triple the fat then ever.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:14 PM

The next step was to feed all that data I generated about myself to a data mining machine that would find patterns for me based on what I eat, atmospheric pressure, daily temperature etc... but I will probably give it up since its hard to do and I almost have no health problem left. Low carb + supplements really made a difference to complete body status.

3
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on October 01, 2011
at 12:12 AM

Does low-carb ???work??? simply because packaged foods are high-carb?

I think that may be true for some people, but is not true for me. I lost weight on a low calorie, moderate carb diet (I was 50% carb, 30% protein, 20% fat) that included quite a bit of packaged food. I especially liked all the extra fiber crap including snack bars and completely processed "muffins" and other junk like that.

When I went lower carb, higher fat whole foods (50% fat, 20% carb), I had good results with some weight loss and body comp changes. The sad thing that seemed to happen, is I have now lost my tolerance to eat more carbs. If I eat more now, I gain weight. If I would have know that would happen I never would have dropped the carbs down so far. Now I'm stuck here.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:38 AM

Does this carb intolerance also apply if you count calories?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:43 AM

@Annie, I ~always~ count calories. I know I am mainly gaining water when the carbs go up, not fat, but my body just doesn't deal with them as well anymore. I would guess that I wouldn't gain fat if I ate 1200 calories of carbs and nothing else, but it wouldn't be pretty.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:19 AM

That's because you're special Melissa, everybody knows that :) I'm in the extreme minority, but I believe in crash dieting. The reason is this: crash dieting allows you to make stronger conclusions on different macronutrient mixes than a more moderate diet. So I've gone super high carb super low fat, and have also done the reverse. If you ate very little fat and moderate carb at the moment, do you think your weight would go bananas?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:41 AM

Yeah, I don't even know what the PSMF did to me, but it wasn't good. I'm sure it's from my screwed up metabolism, I know it works great for many people.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:54 AM

Darn you, Protein Sparing Modified Farce. One day, we will do a diet together. That's my MO -- together diets.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on October 01, 2011
at 12:36 AM

As long as I keep my calories the same nothing changes weight-wise. I have different cravings and issues, but the number one thing for me is calories. I did the PSMF, so that was zero fat, extremely low carb and it really messed me up. I lost the weight while I did it for the two weeks, then went back up. It actually moved my set point UP, which hasn't happened in 7 years.

3
2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on September 30, 2011
at 08:20 PM

I have been following along in this "great" debate. What I conclude, and what I have always followed is to listen to your body. We will continually be overloaded with new information, many of which conflict w/ each other. So it can be tough at times to know what the "right" thing to do is.

I don't think there are anything wrong w/ carbs, but as you say foods that are heavily processed, convenient, have a high food reward and happen to be mostly carbs. These foods are thus easy to become addicted to and probably account for adjusting our body's set-point.

Calories matter in the end, but our bodies are not closed static systems. We are dynamic, we change, we evolve. Our bodies adjust to the environment we give them. That is why restricting calories too low wont work, or doing too much exercise never work in the long term.

I think for many, going "low carb" is the easiest way to mange the situation. This does not mean low carb is the only way however. I think a high carb paleo diet could work too. Depends on the individual. Depends on your lifestyle, your genes, etc.

I think you have to listen to your body and put yourself in the best situation to control your environment. I think at a base you start with eating real food, cook it yourself, and too make sure you are not overdoing it (calorie restricting, overeating, exercise, anything that would increase cortisol), and to get plenty of sleep. I definitely agree with Dr. Harris' post on hormesis.

Also this all assumes you are relatively healthy already. Otherwise, there are specific diets that might target a particular issue/deficiency.

2
B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:21 AM

before paleo i had at least 3 years of eating a relatively healthy diet that was 1400 calories a day of mostly fish, lean chicken, loads of fruit, raw vegetables, low fat dairy, sprouted grain bread, nuts, brown rice, beans and kashi cereal. i was at the gym 5 days a week- my bench press was 90lbs, squat 220lbs and i could run the treadmill 1.5 mile in 10 and 1/2 minutes. and i still had belly fat left over from all those years of being over weight.

i have been paleo since may; tried a bunch of different combinations of macros and have just now started to trim down on LC IF with fat and protein consumed in equal amounts.

another possible explanation for the fat loss is that i may have become metabolically flexible, but i want to lean out some more before i test that theory.

1
D8795130729e173cfe9f3e2f6353becd

(446)

on October 01, 2011
at 04:55 PM

I would like to put a bit of a different tack on this, if I can.

Sometimes, it is kinda interesting to take a step out of the Western food paradigm and look at the rest of the world. My husband's family comes from the Middle East and we have recently just been out there.

Now, these are cultures where, compared to the West, there are very few packaged foods consumed on a daily basis. Mothers tend to cook meals from scratch using fresh ingredients. Though there is some fast food, it is few and far between -- a treat, rather than daily consumption and even then, the "fast food" isn't some Frankenstein corporate product.

This time is the first time I have been out there since I went paleo, and as such, I noticed something rather fascinating.

We travelled to two towns, each in a different country. They are about 100 miles apart, have the same weather system, and the people share, mostly, the same genetic heritage. Lifestyles are similar (neither are big exercise cultures), their traditional food stuffs are pretty similar, and, in the areas I observed, the religious/cultural make-up of the areas were similar as well (this is important in terms of alcohol consumption).

Yet, in country X, the young people (ie. from 11 to 25) carried noticeably more body fat than in country Y. While a non-paleo might not notice it so much, my paleo radar picks up on these things these days and the difference was fairly apparent. In fact, one particular day, in country X, I found myself sitting across from a young man, under 25, who would be classed as clinically obese; it made me realise that I had never seen a clinically obese young person in country Y.

This absolutely intrigued me, and, after a while, I began to suspect a possible cause.

Country X, as a rule, eats more carbohydrates on a daily basis than country Y, and country Y eats a lot more meat and fat. It is a pretty subtle dietary difference that probably only becomes apparent when you compare the diets of one against another over a period of time in two countries that are not particularly different in other ways (I have lived in both over the years).

When I say more carbohydrates, I mean that country X will serve five sources of carbohydrates with a meal whereas country Y will serve maybe two. Country X will serve a salad that contains a bread product and serve it with bread as well; country Y will serve a salad that contains an animal fat product instead. Again, if you order what we would call a kebab and salad, in country X, your meat will come in a flat bread and your salad will come with bread as well, whereas in country Y, your meat and salad will come on a plate with bread served on the side.

Now we are talking here about generally "unmessed about with" carb sources: we are talking about traditional flat breads that are essentially the same and bear little relation to Western bread products, dips that are essentially the same, potatoes from the same source. Country X just eats more of them -- to my rough eye, possibly twice as much as country Y.

That really was the only thing I could find to explain why young people had more body fat in country X. There was no other difference I could find.

Note: I have refrained from naming the countries ... I don't really want to label people in any way.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:15 PM

I'm sure you know..

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 01, 2011
at 05:52 PM

Thank you for this response. I think it is important and appreciate your sharing it. +1

1
324bf94d3d6f9322d6e4dba4becfaab1

on September 30, 2011
at 08:15 PM

Satiety has a lot to do with nutritional contents. Non-animal fats tent to have very low nutritional profiles, so eating high fat doesn't guarantee satiety. Regardless of whether its fat, protein, or carbs your body is going to get hungry again quickly if you are foods that were devoid of micro-nutrients, especially the essential ones that meat has lots of. When you eat nutrient devoid food your body reaches its calorie needs long before it meets its nutritional needs, thus you end up hungry even after you've eaten enough calories.

Gnolls.org has some great info on this subject: http://www.gnolls.org/2407/when-satiety-fails-why-are-we-hungry-part-4/

As long as you aren't insulin resistant it's ok to eat some carbs. When the majority of your diet is meat with a few green vegetables it is easy to reach your nutritional needs long before your calorie needs, so eating a few grains won't cause you to overeat. Everyone has their own tolerance threshold for carbs, but pretty much everyone is in for some trouble if they're eating 50-60% carb and avoiding animal products long-term. There are many ways to get your insulin down, but a very low/no carb diet is one of the best ways to get it done quickly.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on September 30, 2011
at 10:55 PM

Oh, I'd say a spoonful of olive oil vs bacon fat vs butter would all digest at the same rate. Stomach acid doesn't play favorites based on micronutrients. The big difference is that the animal fats taste better. They are - I hate to say it - more rewarding.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on September 30, 2011
at 09:41 PM

"Satiety has a lot to do with nutritional contents" I see this repeated very often in the paleosphere as if it were fact, but I have never seen this claim backed up with any substantial amount of real evidence, only vague anecdotes from the poster.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:00 AM

I second Olivia's point. This supposed link between micronutrients and hunger is obviously appealing (just eat food full of 'goodness' and your hunger will disappear), bu there doesn't seem to be any evidence presented for it at all. I do recall and recognise a study showing that a multivitamin helped weight loss, but why not think that this is to do with improving metabolism in various ways rather than satisfying hunger. If hunger really did follow the micronutients one'd expect a lot of people to crave multivitamins and pass up heavy cream, which doesn't seem to happen.

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