1

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Who takes Vitamin K?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created December 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM

Who here takes Vitamin K supplements? How much and which brand?

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 07, 2011
at 01:59 AM

And what makes you think that "evolutionary norms" dictate that this nutrient was only present in very small amounts? Actually, the research that exists on this suggests that the grass-fed fat of traditional diets provided very high amounts of K2, as with his fat-soluble friends, A and D.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on January 03, 2011
at 03:52 PM

No K2 from liver? Not as high a concentration as in my parmesan cheese, but it's there according to the WAP article: http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/175-x-factor-is-vitamin-k2.html#foods

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:13 AM

Taking 120mcg of MK-4 per day will get you somewhere: in line with evolutionary norms. Rather than hyper-megadosing a relatively novel and unstudied supplement.

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:10 AM

You are eating the Paleo diet but don't believe in the principle of using evolutionary norms as a guide to intake?

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:08 AM

You don't get K2 from liver, so you are not getting it from diet.

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:06 AM

See some papers by Cordain and Eades. We were probably able to evolve our large brains from calorically dense foods. The most likely source, according to our nutritional needs (high need of DHA and AA to develop the brain) was brain and bone marrow tissue from scavenged carcasses. This is also in line with optimal foraging theory (most calories for the least effort). Both these tissues in wild game would have had some K2. Modern people who don't eat grass fed dairy get almost zero K2 in their diet. There is also plenty of evidence demonstrating it prevents arterial calcification, osteoperosis,

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 09:54 PM

If you can find a reference for that study, Eric, please send it my way. The standard dose for MK-4 in clinical trials is 45 mg per day. Research on Mk-7 is newer, but dosages typically vary between 60 and 120 mcg per day.

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 09:47 PM

Actually the vast majority of studies using MK-4 use a dose of 45 mg per day, not just one study. Here's a reference for that and i have several others, if you are interested. Schurgers LJ, et al. Vitamin K-containing dietary supplements: comparison of synthetic vitamin K1 and natto-derived menaquinone-7. Blood. 2007 Apr 15;109(8):3279-83.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on January 02, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I am (thankfully) not osteoporotic, so it was never my intention to take a therapeutic dose of a (relatively under-researched) substance not found at therapeutic levels in nature. (However I am still seeing results at this level). I am merely interested in what is optimal for general health and wellbeing. In general, I don't believe in megadosing any particular nutrient (unless diagnised as deficient), since the resulting long-term interactions and depletions can unfavourably skew even an otherwise healthful diet.

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on January 02, 2011
at 05:20 AM

Why is less than 45 mg per day of MK-4 useless? I recall a study on osteoporotic women which used that dosage to great effect, but is there something else you're referencing? Simibee seems to be receiving benefits from 100 mcg.

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 01:26 AM

The appropriate dosage for the MK-4 form of K2 in your supplement is 45 mg per day, not 100 mcg. Please see me post below...

6869a1f2294b3a717a53645589a91d18

(1689)

on December 30, 2010
at 12:11 AM

1) Paleo peoples probably spent many more calories per day than modern peoples. Sustaining a higher caloric output requires a higher caloric input. Higher caloric input = more food, more food = more nutrients. 2) Modern foods are less nutritious than the same foods from paleo times due to farming practices/soil quality/whatever. 3) Paleos probably ate primarily, possibly exclusively, foods that moderns might not want to or might have trouble eating (i.e. a paleo feasting on organs, marrow, while a modern would be more likely to eat/prefer muscle meats etc?).

Cb2415c2aef964ab499a09dc92ae7e01

(783)

on December 29, 2010
at 11:07 PM

Out of curiosity I visited a Japenese market in San Francisco today. They had about 25+ different brands of natto, all in its own section in a freezer case! Maybe there is something to it...

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 08:34 PM

Right, I get it now. K and K2 are not the same. Nevermind. Nonetheless, I prefer to get it from diet. Loving liver these days.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 08:33 PM

Good clarification. I had read this before, but forgot.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 04:13 PM

Probably not. I just mention it for the purists and the allergic/intolerant. It's a big problem with certain vitamins (K, E, even D).

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 04:11 PM

According to the Nutrition Data site, radicchio is a very good source of vitamin K. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/3018/2

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on December 29, 2010
at 03:57 AM

I don't think you get any K2 in radicchio or lettuce, unless that wasn't what you were trying to say.

211d4075d68b24cd0aa7ebfa94262bb9

on December 28, 2010
at 07:46 PM

I live in Los Angeles and there are several Japanese markets in my area (Marukai, Mitsuwa, etc.) that sell natto. The Japanese cashiers are usually surprised to see a white guy buying natto.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 28, 2010
at 06:05 PM

Think the wee bit of soy in pills like this is an issue for someone who is healthy, active, with no problems? I figure it's not a big issue.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 28, 2010
at 06:04 PM

I lived in japan for five years and totally dug natto by the end. Are you in the US? If so, where do you get natto? Thanks.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 28, 2010
at 03:16 PM

The Jarrow product is reasonably priced. Unfortunately it contains soy (allergic). http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-MK-7#IngredientFacts

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 28, 2010
at 02:08 AM

I haven't sprung for it yet but I've been eye balling this one from Jarrow on amazon after reading an article in Life Extension magazine: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OVVFA/ref=ord_cart_shr

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11 Answers

best answer

2
9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

on December 29, 2010
at 04:00 AM

I take Life Extension's advanced K2 along with 5,000 IU of D3 almost every day (when I don't forget).

I think it's important to remind ourselves that K2 and K are not the same thing at all and you won't get k2 in your diet by eating greens.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 08:33 PM

Good clarification. I had read this before, but forgot.

4
Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 01:20 AM

I'm taking Natural Factors K&D with 120 mcg K2 (as MK-7) and 1000 IU D3. I take 1 to 2 per day, and more D3.

As for the MK-4 versus MK-7 debate raised by Simibee, consumers choosing a K2 supplement need to be aware of a few things: Yes, MK-4 is, in theory, the "natural" form of K2 made by animals that you would find in grass fed animal products, but MK-4 in supplements is only made synthetically, in a lab. The MK-7 form is extracted from natto, in which it is naturally occurring. There is also a big difference in the dosage between these two forms. For MK-4 you need to take 45 mg per day. For MK-7 the dosage is around 120 mcg per day. You need to make sure the dose you are taking is right for the form you are taking.

Whatever you feeling is about natural versus synthetic (I'm firmly in the MK-7 camp myself), studies have shown good results with MK-4 at 45 mg/day. That means that in Canada, where the max available dose of K2 in any product is 120 mcg, an MK-4 product is useless. Taking 120 mcg of MK-4 won't get you any where.

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:13 AM

Taking 120mcg of MK-4 per day will get you somewhere: in line with evolutionary norms. Rather than hyper-megadosing a relatively novel and unstudied supplement.

3
Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on December 29, 2010
at 10:18 PM

I take K2, as I feel that together with magnesium, these are the only two nutrients of which it is very difficult to get optimal levels on an otherwise healthy paleo diet.

I take Nature's Plus 1,000 IU D3/100mcg K2, which provides 125% of K2 RDA. This is high enough to have an effect (studies show bone mineralisation starting at 15-45 mcg). Equally, to quote Stephan Guyenet from Whole Health Source, "I can't support any supplement that has more than 1 mg K2 in it. That's about the upper limit of what you can get from food. Any more than that and you're taking pharmacological doses and the long-term effects are unknown."

Nature's Plus is completely free from the usual fillers like dairy, soy, vegetable oils, gluten e.t.c. Importantly, the K2 is also in the form of MK-4, not the natto-derived MK-7 which other people have recommended. MK-4 is the "natural animal" form of K2 which mammals synthesise for themselves. (Note: humans can actually synthesise K2 from K1, but the conversion process is extremely inefficient). Each bottle also comes with a certificate of analysis from an independent lab.

K2 is a relatively novel supplement, so paying for most good quality formulations will feel like daylight robbery. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I paid ??40 for a six month supply (which I partly justified to myself as "backup D3"). I'm 2 months in and plan to review at the end and see whether it's worth continuing to supplement.

Results so far: I used to get staining on my bottom 4 front teeth. This is apparently quite common, and due to their proximity to the salivary gland, which releases highly mineralised saliva - something which was actually getting worse on nutrient dense paleo. Now, I've noticed that this is fading and I seem to be able to brush most of it away. This would definitely be consistent with K2's important role in dental health/reversal of tooth decay.

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 01:26 AM

The appropriate dosage for the MK-4 form of K2 in your supplement is 45 mg per day, not 100 mcg. Please see me post below...

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on January 02, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I am (thankfully) not osteoporotic, so it was never my intention to take a therapeutic dose of a (relatively under-researched) substance not found at therapeutic levels in nature. (However I am still seeing results at this level). I am merely interested in what is optimal for general health and wellbeing. In general, I don't believe in megadosing any particular nutrient (unless diagnised as deficient), since the resulting long-term interactions and depletions can unfavourably skew even an otherwise healthful diet.

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on January 02, 2011
at 05:20 AM

Why is less than 45 mg per day of MK-4 useless? I recall a study on osteoporotic women which used that dosage to great effect, but is there something else you're referencing? Simibee seems to be receiving benefits from 100 mcg.

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 09:54 PM

If you can find a reference for that study, Eric, please send it my way. The standard dose for MK-4 in clinical trials is 45 mg per day. Research on Mk-7 is newer, but dosages typically vary between 60 and 120 mcg per day.

2
D46ac97215cc67da4869fe46ea84b435

(40)

on December 29, 2010
at 11:04 AM

I took it, but haven't for a while since I finally figured out, that my tiredness was due to low ferritin.

I used Gall Pharma Vitamin K1, 60 micrograms.

2
7431586c21bca496c5a7ec7bd0ca4d6e

(974)

on December 29, 2010
at 12:28 AM

I had a bottle of Thorne Research vitamin K2. I paid $50 and used a drop, 1 mg, almost every day for a year. It helped my chapped lips a lot. I threw it out because it started to taste strange. I got the thorne research d3/k2 combo. It is a good formulation for the winter, but by summer, I will want to take K2 separately from vitamin D.

2
211d4075d68b24cd0aa7ebfa94262bb9

on December 28, 2010
at 05:33 AM

No supplements, but I eat organ meats occasionally for MK-4 along with natto for MK-7. The natto was kind of gross at first (it has the appearance of sputum and the consistency of rubber cement) but I adapted.

211d4075d68b24cd0aa7ebfa94262bb9

on December 28, 2010
at 07:46 PM

I live in Los Angeles and there are several Japanese markets in my area (Marukai, Mitsuwa, etc.) that sell natto. The Japanese cashiers are usually surprised to see a white guy buying natto.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on December 28, 2010
at 06:04 PM

I lived in japan for five years and totally dug natto by the end. Are you in the US? If so, where do you get natto? Thanks.

Cb2415c2aef964ab499a09dc92ae7e01

(783)

on December 29, 2010
at 11:07 PM

Out of curiosity I visited a Japenese market in San Francisco today. They had about 25+ different brands of natto, all in its own section in a freezer case! Maybe there is something to it...

1
7431586c21bca496c5a7ec7bd0ca4d6e

(974)

on January 02, 2011
at 07:29 AM

Bullshit.

One Japanese study used mk4 at 45 mg/day. This does not mean the optimal dose is 45 mg/day. It is likely not 45 mg/day because that would be several orders of magnitude greater than can be consumed as food.

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:10 AM

You are eating the Paleo diet but don't believe in the principle of using evolutionary norms as a guide to intake?

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 07, 2011
at 01:59 AM

And what makes you think that "evolutionary norms" dictate that this nutrient was only present in very small amounts? Actually, the research that exists on this suggests that the grass-fed fat of traditional diets provided very high amounts of K2, as with his fat-soluble friends, A and D.

Caa1d5b91f44cc9da8826e171320f4ac

on January 02, 2011
at 09:47 PM

Actually the vast majority of studies using MK-4 use a dose of 45 mg per day, not just one study. Here's a reference for that and i have several others, if you are interested. Schurgers LJ, et al. Vitamin K-containing dietary supplements: comparison of synthetic vitamin K1 and natto-derived menaquinone-7. Blood. 2007 Apr 15;109(8):3279-83.

1
95601768ec9cb75cc3a9cbcd2271ed14

(2206)

on December 29, 2010
at 04:47 AM

I take these sublingual tablets, but only once or twice a week because I really hate the taste of them. Once I manage to get through the bottle I will shop around for a new brand.

1
50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on December 28, 2010
at 06:31 AM

I started taking Life Extension, K Complex, a few weeks ago. But I started also taking Magnesium and Potassium. I feel great lately, but not sure if it is the K, or something else, or both.

1
4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on December 28, 2010
at 04:43 AM

I take low dose vitamin K occasionally. My regimen is something like the following: alternate between (i) nothing, (ii) 100 mcg K1, (iii) nothing, (iv) 45 mcg mk-7 k2, (vi) nothing, and and (vii) 100 mcg mk-4 k2.

I'm not aware of a great paleo argument for taking vitamin K, provided you are eating grass-fed animal products and/or green veggies. That said, there seems to be quite a bit of good data (e.g., EPIC, ECKO) for it that is enticing....

Does anybody know of any good paleo arguments for it (i.e., why we would have had more of it in paleo times)?

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:06 AM

See some papers by Cordain and Eades. We were probably able to evolve our large brains from calorically dense foods. The most likely source, according to our nutritional needs (high need of DHA and AA to develop the brain) was brain and bone marrow tissue from scavenged carcasses. This is also in line with optimal foraging theory (most calories for the least effort). Both these tissues in wild game would have had some K2. Modern people who don't eat grass fed dairy get almost zero K2 in their diet. There is also plenty of evidence demonstrating it prevents arterial calcification, osteoperosis,

6869a1f2294b3a717a53645589a91d18

(1689)

on December 30, 2010
at 12:11 AM

1) Paleo peoples probably spent many more calories per day than modern peoples. Sustaining a higher caloric output requires a higher caloric input. Higher caloric input = more food, more food = more nutrients. 2) Modern foods are less nutritious than the same foods from paleo times due to farming practices/soil quality/whatever. 3) Paleos probably ate primarily, possibly exclusively, foods that moderns might not want to or might have trouble eating (i.e. a paleo feasting on organs, marrow, while a modern would be more likely to eat/prefer muscle meats etc?).

1
531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

on December 28, 2010
at 01:44 AM

I bought the Thorne Pharmaceuticals K2. Paid through the teeth for it (about $40). Won't do so again. Just not worth it. Rather eat some LIVER [DELETE radicchio or lettuce] for my money.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 04:11 PM

According to the Nutrition Data site, radicchio is a very good source of vitamin K. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/3018/2

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on December 29, 2010
at 03:57 AM

I don't think you get any K2 in radicchio or lettuce, unless that wasn't what you were trying to say.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 29, 2010
at 08:34 PM

Right, I get it now. K and K2 are not the same. Nevermind. Nonetheless, I prefer to get it from diet. Loving liver these days.

3a966a805e09d88b0f223f2985392e4f

(836)

on January 03, 2011
at 09:08 AM

You don't get K2 from liver, so you are not getting it from diet.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on January 03, 2011
at 03:52 PM

No K2 from liver? Not as high a concentration as in my parmesan cheese, but it's there according to the WAP article: http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/175-x-factor-is-vitamin-k2.html#foods

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