9

votes

Why are teeth and jaws crooked or miss-aligned?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 05, 2012 at 2:49 PM

I am an Orthodontist who is researching into the aetiology (UK spelling) of malocclusion- cause of crooked teeth and jaws, I've been asked to present at the Ancestral Health Symposium in Harvard next Sat AM. Before I start expounding on why I think this occurs it is important that I understand what most people in the Paleo and Ancestral world think.

It is also important to understand why you have come to these conclusions, to know what the underlying evidence, text or observations which you base these theories are. I've read WAP's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration so would be interested in other original sources that have helped you to form opinions.

30% of the westernized industrial population require some form of treatment, about 30% of them requiring the extraction of permanent teeth (non wisdom teeth) and nearly 50% of wisdom teeth that are present are removed. Some people require major surgery, most treatment relapsed to a greater or lesser degree and most people have crowded lower teeth. Orthodontist admit that they do not know the cause of the problem and I am trying to find the answer. This is a big issue and it is important to find the true cause as treatment or prevention must be based on the truth.

WAP suggested that this was probably due to a lack of Vit A or D but I am struggling to find any hard evidence for this, and it does not fit with the trends and epidemiology. In my efforts to give a balanced fair and factual presentation it would be very nice to hear your opinions. With only 20min presentation time it is important to understand what the audience knows and believes in, and what those believes are founded on. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much,

Mike Mew

1e9164a5a54003ac247d49c574dc7bfc

(396)

on August 23, 2012
at 07:42 PM

That was almost all one sentence. Impressed. No, I've not been to them. I do hope this produces some compelling words to highlight accurately the extent of the effects of our modern lives.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:17 AM

Our furthest ever patient was from Tokyo, and currently have them from Ireland, far north of UK and Canary Islands (which is effectively Africa) but we specialize in children, usually under 9

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:13 AM

Jared, Have you been to the web sites; orthotropics.com or .co.uk and while you or anyone else who see this is in the mood please do follow us at; facebook.com/orthotropics to follow general info about orthotropics, and facebook.com/YCrookedTeeth which is the campaign sit to push the profession into a free, fair and open debate on this issue, this is not an issue where we should be fringe, there is adequate good quality evidence in peer reviewed journals to PROVE that crooked teeth is a disease of the environment. – Orthotropics 0 secs ago For more Paleo Diet hacks: Why are teeth and ja

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:12 AM

Jared, Have you been to the web sites; http://www.facefocused.com/ http://www.orthotropics.com/ and while you or anyone else who see this is in the mood please do follow us at; http://www.facebook.com/orthotropics to follow general info about orthotropics, and http://www.facebook.com/YCrookedTeeth which is the campaign sit to push the profession into a free, fair and open debate on this issue, this is not an issue where we should be fringe, there is adequate good quality evidence in peer reviewed journals to PROVE that crooked teeth is a disease of the environment.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:06 AM

True but Bill is the best for this most probably the best in the world, M

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:05 AM

Luckylisa, I would recommend Bill for adults over me, you get good at what you do the most and he is certainly better for Adults, did you see the post below from Anna?

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 09, 2012
at 06:24 AM

Interestingly you can cross a Great Dane with a Chihuahua, to produce offspring. A single canine tooth of the great Dane is more massive than the Chihuahua's whole head. Each of the offsring (I suggest you use the Dane as the Mum) are a varying sized between both parents, where can the specific genetic script have come from, but jaws and teeth that match perfectly. There cannot be a specific script it is a code that can vary it does and is unlikely to be the causes of these problems.

0d42a3e52e5fe6c4dd7269ce3ab91abb

(55)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:36 PM

I just checked Dr. Hang's and your sites and my mind is full of joyous fireworks at the thought that my OSA may not be all my fault! My ENT said it was, and the cure was fat loss. Lost 29Lbs with Paleo (20lbs to go) and it didn't make a lick of difference. What if OSA is related to my teeth/bit as well as my "hellatious" sinusitis/rhinitis, and my TMJ? (I just started cranial osteopathic treatments with great success.) My mind is swirling-so much to learn- wish I was at AHS 2012. THANK YOU!! for your posts and info.(smile) Lisa PS I'd prefer London over CA (I'm ready for a windfall)

Bbb65dfde2b925e334048eb6438b3950

on August 07, 2012
at 11:08 PM

I would think that having the children so close together after having breastfed for a year on a SAD diet would have left your body in a less than ideal nutritional state. I read somewhere that breastfeeding takes a much greater toll on your body nutritionally, than pregnancy, which totally makes sense. I would think that this might explain the dramatic change in facial growth and the appearance of gross malocclusion in younger children born to mothers in traditional societies after a western diet was introduced to them, as Weston A. Price observed.

0d42a3e52e5fe6c4dd7269ce3ab91abb

(55)

on August 07, 2012
at 10:46 PM

Thank you Mike, I will definitely ask for a consultation, and buy a lottery ticket :) - his office is two hours from my aunts.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 07, 2012
at 08:50 PM

Yes and yes. Purely speculation, of course, but I think D deficiency is the largest (but certainly not only) factor in the UK, and given its role in calcium metabolism, it makes sense to me. Also, A & K deficiency for some--though they are more likely to be the limiting factors if D is sufficient. So poor nutrition/starvation in sunny climes (Africa) and lack of D among the otherwise well-nourished.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:53 AM

The presentation that I will be giving at the AHS is about linking these issues (although I've changed the angle slightly to cover Vits more). The conclusion that I am coming to is that the Vits in your diet may influence pre birth effects but other factors have a greater effect in later development certainly by the age of 6. So rest a little easier about your diet. If you are going to go ahead there is only one person that I would recommend down this which would be Bill Hang in CA, http://www.facefocused.com/ReOpen.html contact him and discuss it before taking any action, best Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:16 AM

Perfect Mister Worms, The 2nd quote is empirical but the 1st is exactly what I have been looking for, thank you very much. A review paper from the dept of anatomy in Sydney (my old dental anatomist emigrated to work at the dept of dental anatomy there). It does greatly interest me why many baby's are born with problems, although the great tendency is for some spontaneous correction in the first few years of life. The cranial osteopaths have put this down to birth injury but it certainly does not explain everything. Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 09:38 AM

Michael Thank you very much for taking the time to put that together, it was most helpful and I completely agree with the format that you give it in, forums like this are an important resource and should be well written, as you have. Due to space restrictions I may take the liberty of answering in a new answer, below. Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 07:51 AM

Toothfairy, He is a classic example of a long face, which shows that you can still achieve top (best ever) times in swimming events with a less than perfect cranial structure. I am guessing that you are dental? In that case, as a Paleo interested professional can you help me to find any hard evidence on the Vit A and D link to malocclusion and facial dystrophy? It would be very useful to me. Nemesis, do you feel that there is any relationship between Michael Phelps not being able to keep his mouth closed and the fact that he has a long face?

3d94686d427c69bf653813e0371cd2b6

(328)

on August 07, 2012
at 02:51 AM

Ohh poor Michael Phelps. Open anterior bite and long vertical dimension. My ortho professor utilized him all the time as an example.

35bc838bd11ae409f687f7bf2bcae071

on August 07, 2012
at 01:43 AM

I always meant to track down the source of this claim in the book I mentioned so this is a good time. This is what the author cited: Vitamin K--its essential role in craniofacial development. A review of the literature regarding vitamin K and craniofacial development. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8018065 And another take: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/11/malocclusion-disease-of-civilization.html

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:57 PM

Actually my grandfather gave my father a first edition (both dentists both doing orthodontics), unfortunately long lost but well debated in the family. Very interested to hear your response, I am pushing everyone here for their opinions and the root information that it rests on. Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:53 PM

My colleague Kevin Boyd is covering the breastfeeding angle, and yes the muscular action is very different. The late Dr Brian Palmer was a giant in this area and was convinced of the link however does not show up clearly or easily in research, that shows disappointingly little different between breast and bottle feeders, hence my move to weaning. The author of Baby Lead Weaning Gill Ripley was a midwife, it is a good book and I would highly recommend it to you as a midwife. Your comments are very relevant thank you for participating. Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Decay and breast feeding is Kevin's department, we are both very passionate about this. It is important just within dentistry, then if you then look at the possibility that malocclusion is just one symptom of a change in the facial shape and start looking at the other symptoms then it's really important in general medicine. But it contradicts many well respected views, opinions and people. I've just sent you a facebook request, see you in Boston, Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:34 PM

Dragonfly, Thank you again. Could I then suggest that; you feel that the increase in vertical facial dimension (as WAP described and we are calling Craniofacial dystrophy) is due to a lack of Vit D in early utero with the various patterns of malocclusion that it produces is due to genetics? Also you feel that most mothers in the UK are deficient in Vit D, due to the lack of sunlight (over use of sunscreen) or large salmon (fish) diet? This is then explaining the dramatic increase of incidence in the modern world? Do you think that there are other factors? Thanks Mike

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:21 PM

And sufficient Vitamins A & K in diet are likely to account for some variance.

0c0c13c9a82616643ecdca61f5cc5f67

(100)

on August 06, 2012
at 05:08 PM

So glad to hear that -- follow-up reply in next post here.

2e5dc29c61f97d335ffb990508424719

on August 06, 2012
at 04:57 PM

I met both, Kevin partularly was very passionate about it. He also big on breast feeding, or lack of as an issue. I just found you on the program, I will look for you. I am not on crowdvine but I am on facebook. I am looking into decay. I referenced the NESCent meeting here, http://www.sorrentinodental.com/Blog.html?entry=why-teeth-decay-i

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 04:14 PM

Michael, Thank you very much for that, I've read WAP book but have not gone further at present (for lack of time not interest). I am very interested in your point and have two questions; 1) Apart from Price what are you sources of reference 2) What would your suggestion be to someone with crooked teeth and/pr mal-aligned jaws? Thanks Mike

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:04 PM

No, I imagine that there is genetic expression involved that would account for the pattern of variance. Dr. Schroth would likely know if there are any pertinent studies.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on August 06, 2012
at 10:09 AM

It points to refined food like products containing things such as wheat and sugar.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on August 06, 2012
at 10:06 AM

I would think that if folks from different races breed, the result would be offspring with far less genetic issues than more. After all, we have a system of pheromones that cause us to be attracted to those who we have less genetic material in common with so as to prevent interbreeding.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 07:56 AM

Would you not then be suggesting that nearly all mothers are deficient, which is not reflected in the pattern of variance in malocclusion. Have you any specific studies or evidence directly connecting Vit D and malocclusion? Thank you very much for your contribution

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 07:49 AM

Thank you, may I ask what you are basing this on? This is exactly the sort of material that I am trying to gather with this thread.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:09 AM

Thanks you very much.

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a

on August 06, 2012
at 02:40 AM

K2-MK4 during the first trimester of pregnancy is the largest factor in dental arch size, not A or D.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:22 AM

Sorry, I misquoted. 400 IUs is the recommend dose for infants in the US--a slightly lesser amount in the UK.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:14 AM

Just to give an example: I need to supplement 6,000 IUs/day to maintain a blood level of around 60 ng/ml.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:11 AM

*prevalent* ...

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:11 AM

A recent study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21706518) showed that pregnant moms need at least 50 ng/ml to have sufficient D in their breastmilk. Google D deficiency & rickets & you will see how prevlanet D deficiency is in the UK, cutting across socioeconomic lines.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:06 AM

The Vitamin D Council general recommendation is to aim for a 25 (OH)D blood level of 50-60 ng/ml. (125-150 nmol/L)

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:04 AM

Sun avoidance/sunscreen use have gone up over the same period, no?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:03 AM

Specifically, adult mothers. 400 IUs is the recommended dose for infants. Get the picture?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:02 AM

The D3 supplementation recommendation in the UK (10 mcg or 400IU.) is too low to significantly affect the blood level of most people. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin-D.aspx

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:21 AM

Point taken, that would suggest a resistance in the tropical countries and anyone working outside, which is certainly true. The argument against is the mass provision of A and D to pregnant and women trying to conceive in the UK over the last century. Studies are one thing to quote, but when a whole population is affected for a 50 year period even the smallest trend would be noted. Over that time malocclusion seem to have increased (comparative long term data here is not perfectly comparable with areas and groups, but it has not gone down).

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:11 AM

Orthotropics, excellent reference, thanks for the info!

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:02 AM

The research comparing breast and bottle is not convincing, the focus has moved to weaning and some good work is being down by Gill Rapley, http://www.rapleyweaning.com/ who come from another angle completely and has written a book Baby led Weaning that has been very popular. Kevin Boyd is very interested in this area. He is covering this angle and there is certainly some interesting devleopments.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:58 AM

I would imagine that that is my father John Mew, who has been saying this for 40 years, developing the orthotropic philosophy and the tropic premise.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:56 AM

This is the common theory suggested by many orthodontists today and as far back as WAP who mentions it in his book, C.S.Chung et al, Am J Hum Genet. 1971 September; 23(5): 471–495. did a study of 1600 siblings in Hawaii (a ethnic melting pot). This is a large group and the results were powerful suggesting that the incidence of malocclusion was the same in all groups but different groups had expressed different patterns, concluding "These findings indicate that human racial crosses present no additional risks for malocclusion".

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:46 AM

D3 is in reality a hormone, not a vitamin. Sun exposure is the mechanism for D3 production in the body. Food sources are not sufficient, unless you eat large quantities of salmon daily. If you are presenting at AHS, you really need to know your stuff re: D3. I suggest you do some reading at www.vitamindcouncil.org. D3 deficiency is rampant among pregnant women (my clients.)

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:45 AM

It was a shame that I heard about the nescent too late, however both Rob Corruccini and Kevin Boyd were there to represent our approach, and mentioned orthotropics. It could be possible that the high energy yields of carbohydrates combined with their relative softness has decreased the masticatory effort required per calorie gained. It's been estimated that we are using the masticatory system only 5% of natural. We certainly should meet, are you on crowdvine?

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:38 AM

I will do but, as I said, I'd really don't see the problems as a nutritional one, it may play a role in sever cases but not for the average child that I see in the surgery, all the children that I see are from well educated families I would be surprised if there are any vitamin deficiencies.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:34 AM

I am questioning the nutritional angle as the pattern of malocclusion in the developing world does not match those with general malnutrition and high mortality (which would suggest a problem with both nutrients, minerals and gut flora). Completely agree with the Michael Phelps comment, I've used a image of him in a lecture to describe long faces and the increase in the vertical dimension.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 05, 2012
at 11:15 PM

I like Carlson's Solar D Gems in a CLO base. iherb.com has it cheap in 2000 & 4000 IU gel caps.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:31 PM

Is there a vitamin D supplement you recommend? Or nothing replaces the sun? I know you are big on vitamin D.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:30 PM

In some genetically pure countries like Korea (which is 99% homogeneous) they have plenty of problems teeth alignment.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Thanks Luckie and John. I don't worry about being called a racist, I worry about an idea not being considered because of political correctness.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:48 PM

Don't worry about being called a racist. I was once called a racist and an anti-Semite because I pointed out that lactose tolerance varies among people of differing genetic backgrounds. Pointing out differences doesn't mean assigning judgement.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:46 PM

Last night I noticed what a mouth-breather Micheal Phelps was. He has a major malocclusion, and he couldn't seem to keep his mouth closed for longer than 20 seconds. His teammates standing next to him on the podium didn't seem to have that trouble at all

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:44 PM

Last night I noticed what a mouth-breather Micheal Phelps was. His mouth was all messed up, and he couldn't seem to keep his mouth closed for longer than 20 seconds. His teammates standing next to him on the podium didn't seem to have that trouble at all.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:18 PM

Have you read works by Weston A. Price? I think everything points out to the gut flora which does not function well when we eat foods were were not designed to eat by default. And since it cannot absorb proper nutrients and minerals... here you go.

2e5dc29c61f97d335ffb990508424719

on August 05, 2012
at 05:16 PM

I think it has more to do with diets as Weston Price evinced. There just is not that much genetic variation. Your points are valid and worthy of research. Bringing them up does not make you a racist. No worries.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:03 PM

It could. I know people who have large teeth from one parent, but the smaller jaws from the other parent. Makes for overcrowding & lots of 3rd molar extractions!

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20 Answers

4
2e5dc29c61f97d335ffb990508424719

on August 05, 2012
at 03:44 PM

Great question. We tackled that problem at this NESCent meeting last March. http://www.nescent.org/cal/calendar_detail.php?id=784 The Anthropologists showed us that there was a <5% malocclusion in per-agricultural skulls. We speculated that somehow carbohydrates screw up growth and development. We even talked about snoring as our turbinates and posterior nasal cavity are smaller, too. I plan on attending the AHS, I am a dentist, lets talk. JS

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:45 AM

It was a shame that I heard about the nescent too late, however both Rob Corruccini and Kevin Boyd were there to represent our approach, and mentioned orthotropics. It could be possible that the high energy yields of carbohydrates combined with their relative softness has decreased the masticatory effort required per calorie gained. It's been estimated that we are using the masticatory system only 5% of natural. We certainly should meet, are you on crowdvine?

2e5dc29c61f97d335ffb990508424719

on August 06, 2012
at 04:57 PM

I met both, Kevin partularly was very passionate about it. He also big on breast feeding, or lack of as an issue. I just found you on the program, I will look for you. I am not on crowdvine but I am on facebook. I am looking into decay. I referenced the NESCent meeting here, http://www.sorrentinodental.com/Blog.html?entry=why-teeth-decay-i

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Decay and breast feeding is Kevin's department, we are both very passionate about this. It is important just within dentistry, then if you then look at the possibility that malocclusion is just one symptom of a change in the facial shape and start looking at the other symptoms then it's really important in general medicine. But it contradicts many well respected views, opinions and people. I've just sent you a facebook request, see you in Boston, Mike

3
0a9ad4e577fe24a6b8aafa1dd7a50c79

on August 05, 2012
at 03:10 PM

I used to have a gap in the front upper 2 teeth when I was a kid. This gap persisted until my late teens. I used to be a vegetarian and after introducing meat back into my diet, this gap that I've had since I was a kid magically closed up by itself. No braces, no surgery, nothing. I changed nothing in my teeth cleaning routine. I brush my teeth with regular old Colgate toothpaste. Recently switched to a flouride-free brand though. However, one of the things I did change and I got the idea from Weston A. Price is to expose my teeth to sunlight. Teeth are made of more than just calcium.

I would lay out in my backyard sunbathing and have a HUGE wide grin on my face to expose as many teeth to the sun as possible. Within a year my gap was completely closed. Until I started eating liver regularly during an autoimmune protocol diet, my teeth were a bit sensitive to cold. After introducing liver, my teeth feel much more "rigid." Take that for what you will.

I also have all 4 of my wisdom teeth, none of which cause me any pain or discomfort. If I'm not mistaken, the inside cells of a tooth are epithelial cells and epithelial cells receive nutrition via diffusion.

WAPF puts a lot of the blame on wheat and sugar in particular as being bad for teeth. Lo and behold, the countries with the highest wheat and sugar consumption have the most dental issues. I've heard it suggested (but haven't seen evidence) that phytic acid/oxalic acid in foods may be able to strip minerals from teeth when we chew it.

2
0c0c13c9a82616643ecdca61f5cc5f67

on August 06, 2012
at 01:28 PM

I'm worried you really didn't read Weston Price's book.

His idea was not just vitamin D --- but rather the combination of vitamins A, D, and the exlusive 'X-Factor' that supported proper facial formation. Likely, the 'x-factor' is vitamin K2.

Even among the people that Price studied, they worked VERY hard to acquire sufficient sources of that x-factor/vitamin K2. How many people today are making the efforts to get enough vitamin K2?

"It is possible to starve for minerals that are abundant in the foods eaten because they cannot be utilized without an adequate quantity of the fat-soluble activators." This is the crux of Dr. Price's teachings--that good health is impossible without the activators found in a small list of carefully selected animal foods. Many health writers and practitioners use his name, but few understand this basic principle.

All three of the fat activator vitamins were considered vital in Price's work. To single out either of them misses the point. All your comparisons to vitamin D status-- without considering the other two -- is not likely to work. That is, if you foundation is Price's work.

Personal experience: I posted that I stopped going to the dentist for teeth cleaning because I got the plaque off my teeth by adding a vitamin K2 supplement to my diet. I was amazed. In 2 days, the calcified stuff on the back of my lower front teeth was gone. So I shared what I experienced here and elsewhere. MY SURPRISE: several people commented that they had tried it but it didn't work for them. I then re-read the writings that gave me this idea and realized that they wrote that the fermented cod liver oil was necessary, along with the vitamin K2 supplement, to get the tarter off the teeth. I have been taking the fermented cod liver oil for years. I just added in the K2.I haven't heard back, but I suspect the people who didn't have the same results with vitamin K2 were not taking the fermented cod liver oil (excellent for vit. A & D). I assume that because few people are taking this expensive cod liver oil.

Bottomline: one without the other may not work.

Suggestion: Revise your research on the basis of what our Paleo ancestors likely ate, which was organ meats, shellfish, and fish eggs (vit. A, D, K2) and correlate along those lines. Few people are eating much of these today, right? My opinion would be that is the problem. With the most limiting factor being the vitamin K2 which is very difficult to get (as it was for Price's subjects as well).

Remember, in Price's book, the Polynesians who had abundant food sources almost effortlessly at hand. They risked their lives to hunt for sharks to get the shark livers (vit. A, D, K2). When asked why they went to all that seemingly needless trouble, the Polynesians responded that they needed the shark livers to grow healthy children! People today aren't making any kind of effort to get these vital fat activator vitamins.

Finally, according to Price, it was that the refined, processed foods are displacing the nutrient dense foods. People are eating modern foods instead of the nutrient dense foods. People are eating potato chips instead of shark liver oil. Ha! I think it is a different point of view to blame white bread and soft drinks, when instead we should blame the fact that people aren't eating shellfish, fish eggs, liver and organ meats. Another way to say it is this: just cutting out the soda pop and chips may not solve the problem. The health problems may not be solved until the special nutrient dense foods are added back in.

Go get your shark livers!

0c0c13c9a82616643ecdca61f5cc5f67

(100)

on August 06, 2012
at 05:08 PM

So glad to hear that -- follow-up reply in next post here.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 04:14 PM

Michael, Thank you very much for that, I've read WAP book but have not gone further at present (for lack of time not interest). I am very interested in your point and have two questions; 1) Apart from Price what are you sources of reference 2) What would your suggestion be to someone with crooked teeth and/pr mal-aligned jaws? Thanks Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:57 PM

Actually my grandfather gave my father a first edition (both dentists both doing orthodontics), unfortunately long lost but well debated in the family. Very interested to hear your response, I am pushing everyone here for their opinions and the root information that it rests on. Mike

2
C4ed6ba382aed2eefc18e7877999a5de

(1579)

on August 05, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Here's an interesting article comparing the tooth structures of indigenous people before and after introducing modern foods to their diet. It particularly points to white flour and sugar displacing native foods as a cause for tooth misalignment. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

2
04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

on August 05, 2012
at 07:31 PM

Regarding breast feeding...I breastfed all three of my kids(one year or more. First born does not need braces, but child #2 & #3 do. Both myself and my husband were not breastfed. Dr. Cate Shanahan author of Deep Nutrition has interesting insight into birth order and pre natal health. My kids were too close together in age (less than two years apart). We were not paleo either. Paleo started more so when they were 10ish. My oldest (age 16) resists the healthy eating the most and she has a bit of acne. My 14 year has a pretty clean diet and has perfect skin. We have always had good souced meat and eggs. My kids are healthy and robust. I think it is also interesting that both my girls are taller than me even though my husband is average height.

Bbb65dfde2b925e334048eb6438b3950

on August 07, 2012
at 11:08 PM

I would think that having the children so close together after having breastfed for a year on a SAD diet would have left your body in a less than ideal nutritional state. I read somewhere that breastfeeding takes a much greater toll on your body nutritionally, than pregnancy, which totally makes sense. I would think that this might explain the dramatic change in facial growth and the appearance of gross malocclusion in younger children born to mothers in traditional societies after a western diet was introduced to them, as Weston A. Price observed.

2
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 05, 2012
at 03:38 PM

Worth talking to Dr. Robert Schroth in Canada who is studying the effect of D on dental health via prenatal studies.

http://www.thedentalessentials.com/current_dental_trials_s/50.htm

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:02 AM

The D3 supplementation recommendation in the UK (10 mcg or 400IU.) is too low to significantly affect the blood level of most people. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin-D.aspx

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 05, 2012
at 11:15 PM

I like Carlson's Solar D Gems in a CLO base. iherb.com has it cheap in 2000 & 4000 IU gel caps.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:22 AM

Sorry, I misquoted. 400 IUs is the recommend dose for infants in the US--a slightly lesser amount in the UK.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:11 AM

A recent study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21706518) showed that pregnant moms need at least 50 ng/ml to have sufficient D in their breastmilk. Google D deficiency & rickets & you will see how prevlanet D deficiency is in the UK, cutting across socioeconomic lines.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:04 AM

Sun avoidance/sunscreen use have gone up over the same period, no?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:04 PM

No, I imagine that there is genetic expression involved that would account for the pattern of variance. Dr. Schroth would likely know if there are any pertinent studies.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:31 PM

Is there a vitamin D supplement you recommend? Or nothing replaces the sun? I know you are big on vitamin D.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:46 AM

D3 is in reality a hormone, not a vitamin. Sun exposure is the mechanism for D3 production in the body. Food sources are not sufficient, unless you eat large quantities of salmon daily. If you are presenting at AHS, you really need to know your stuff re: D3. I suggest you do some reading at www.vitamindcouncil.org. D3 deficiency is rampant among pregnant women (my clients.)

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:14 AM

Just to give an example: I need to supplement 6,000 IUs/day to maintain a blood level of around 60 ng/ml.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:38 AM

I will do but, as I said, I'd really don't see the problems as a nutritional one, it may play a role in sever cases but not for the average child that I see in the surgery, all the children that I see are from well educated families I would be surprised if there are any vitamin deficiencies.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:06 AM

The Vitamin D Council general recommendation is to aim for a 25 (OH)D blood level of 50-60 ng/ml. (125-150 nmol/L)

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:03 AM

Specifically, adult mothers. 400 IUs is the recommended dose for infants. Get the picture?

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 07:56 AM

Would you not then be suggesting that nearly all mothers are deficient, which is not reflected in the pattern of variance in malocclusion. Have you any specific studies or evidence directly connecting Vit D and malocclusion? Thank you very much for your contribution

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:34 PM

Dragonfly, Thank you again. Could I then suggest that; you feel that the increase in vertical facial dimension (as WAP described and we are calling Craniofacial dystrophy) is due to a lack of Vit D in early utero with the various patterns of malocclusion that it produces is due to genetics? Also you feel that most mothers in the UK are deficient in Vit D, due to the lack of sunlight (over use of sunscreen) or large salmon (fish) diet? This is then explaining the dramatic increase of incidence in the modern world? Do you think that there are other factors? Thanks Mike

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 02:11 AM

*prevalent* ...

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:09 AM

Thanks you very much.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:21 AM

Point taken, that would suggest a resistance in the tropical countries and anyone working outside, which is certainly true. The argument against is the mass provision of A and D to pregnant and women trying to conceive in the UK over the last century. Studies are one thing to quote, but when a whole population is affected for a 50 year period even the smallest trend would be noted. Over that time malocclusion seem to have increased (comparative long term data here is not perfectly comparable with areas and groups, but it has not gone down).

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:21 PM

And sufficient Vitamins A & K in diet are likely to account for some variance.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32566)

on August 07, 2012
at 08:50 PM

Yes and yes. Purely speculation, of course, but I think D deficiency is the largest (but certainly not only) factor in the UK, and given its role in calcium metabolism, it makes sense to me. Also, A & K deficiency for some--though they are more likely to be the limiting factors if D is sufficient. So poor nutrition/starvation in sunny climes (Africa) and lack of D among the otherwise well-nourished.

1
1195429e9a42baf332e26438d04bc20a

on August 12, 2012
at 07:38 PM

LuckyLisa, I second the recommendation to consult Bill Hang. My son is currently in the late stages of orthotropic (BioBloc) treatment with Bill, after a long and unsatisfying search for an orthodontist. When we met Bill after over a half dozen consults with highly recommended orthodontists in the San Diego area, for the first time it felt like the orthodontist and I spoke the same language and had the same goals for my child's treatment.

I was so impressed with my son's progress with Bill's treatment (despite my son's less-than-optimal compliance with the Biobloc at first) that at the age of 49 I also underwent orthodontic treatment with Bill, too, to broaden my arches and fix some minor crowding issues (though brackets and broadening wires were used on me, not the Biobloc that my son uses). My symptoms were not as severe as those you describe and I had never undergone the orthodontic treatment that was recommended when I was diagnosed with TMJ problems in my early 20s, but Bill successfully treats many adults with severe situations similar to yours.

I'm thankful we "only" have to drive 290 miles round trip through LA traffic from San Diego County. I have met patients in Bill's waiting room who drive much farther distances or even fly from distant states and even Canada. Bill also teaches his method to other orthodontists and dentists, so it might also be possible for him to recommend someone closer to your area.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:06 AM

True but Bill is the best for this most probably the best in the world, M

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:17 AM

Our furthest ever patient was from Tokyo, and currently have them from Ireland, far north of UK and Canary Islands (which is effectively Africa) but we specialize in children, usually under 9

1
65d7687f43de7806b6bd9b81d1d5d086

on August 07, 2012
at 09:55 PM

Glad to see this topic getting discussed so well here. I'm looking forward to Dr. Mew's presentation at #AHS12 since I'm interested in bone development (aspiring orthopaedic surgeon) and the physical factors that influence bone shape and strength! Keep the conversation going!

1
Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

on August 07, 2012
at 04:53 PM

Thank you,

If anyone is actually interested in what we are doing you can see Patrick McKeown's write up of it here

http://www.buteykoclinic.com/pdf/Normal-cranio-facial-development.pdf

Hope you find it interesting and if you want more after this you can goto;

http://www.orthotropics.com/ or even see me at http://www.orthotropics.co.uk/

Finally you will be able to see my lecture on the AHS web site after the event if you are unable to attend.

Thank you again for all for your help, it has really helped me to move the trust of my presentation to cover the most appropriate angles. Invaluable.

Mike

PS I just had a very informative response back from Rami Nagel

1
Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

on August 07, 2012
at 10:36 AM

Michael,

I will answer you points in order;

I've searched for medical/dental journals that will include anything back to the late 1800's so would include anything that WAP published but have not found anything substantial at present.

You then mention treatment, which I want to avoid in this discussion, although I should mention that we are (almost certainly) performing the largest amounts of maxillary arch expansion anywhere period.

Discussions on functional treatment, i.e, Dr. Louisa Williams, are again for another thread and another day. I've sent her a mail asking for Vit A and D relationships to malocclusion. The case example of a girl treated by WAP is interesting, but the changed diet may have been harder or lead to reduced nasal allergies allowing a change in breathing pattern- it is not conclusive- and good science is not based on case examples.

You then mention Neuro-Cranial Re-structuring, which is an interesting area, I am a member of the BSSCMD here in London who all work closely with cranial osteopaths and chiropractors, and talk of the cranial rhythm and movements of the skull. Again this is not a discussion for now but there are some gaps in the argument although there are also some good ideas and I use an excellent cranial osteopath on many of my patients.

Regarding problems associated with pulling teeth and orthodontia, few have been as active as my Father in this respect, he is credited with having reduced the level of tooth extraction for orthodontics on the planet and has even has run the web site http://www.orthodontic-outrage.com/ in an attempt to contact and pool people with the more sever problems.

Rami contacted me some years ago, possibly when he was writing his book, I had hoped to meet him when I was over presenting at the last AHS in UCLA last summer but could not organize it. I've emailed him again at your suggestion.

However I remain unconvinced I have yet to find any hard evidence for and I've found a deal of good hard evidence against. But I am keen as ever to keep an open mind and look at everything.

Thank you for your contribution,

Mike Mew

1
4298a8573359b54cddb2f90155f645ab

on August 06, 2012
at 01:35 PM

My understanding (as a midwife and breastfeeding clinician) regarding the influence of bottlefeeding on malocclusion is that it causes overbite by straightening the hard palate. Of course suckling at the breast requires physiologic use of the facial and oral muscles in very different ways than sucking (note no "l") from a bottle. So no doubt this also effects later jaw/dentition development in subtle ways. Apologies to the originator of the thread, as I realize this is not germaine to your particular, and very interesting, querie. Best of luck in your research. It's a fascinating line of inquiry.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 06:53 PM

My colleague Kevin Boyd is covering the breastfeeding angle, and yes the muscular action is very different. The late Dr Brian Palmer was a giant in this area and was convinced of the link however does not show up clearly or easily in research, that shows disappointingly little different between breast and bottle feeders, hence my move to weaning. The author of Baby Lead Weaning Gill Ripley was a midwife, it is a good book and I would highly recommend it to you as a midwife. Your comments are very relevant thank you for participating. Mike

1
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 04:24 PM

This is total speculation, so take it for what it is.

I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that the modern world allows for people of all races to meet and ultimately breed. If you look at various cultures there are significant differences in jaw shapes and sizes, I wonder if somehow the combination of genes could increase the risk? I know when I did some work in remote areas of Honduras and in Guatemala there were no orthodontist anywhere near the villages, and yet all of their teeth were perfect!

Please don't get me wrong, I am not racist and I do not believe that inter-race relationships are wrong in ANY Way. Also, to your first point, I had never thought of this before, and have no opinion, just througing on a possibility...

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:56 AM

This is the common theory suggested by many orthodontists today and as far back as WAP who mentions it in his book, C.S.Chung et al, Am J Hum Genet. 1971 September; 23(5): 471–495. did a study of 1600 siblings in Hawaii (a ethnic melting pot). This is a large group and the results were powerful suggesting that the incidence of malocclusion was the same in all groups but different groups had expressed different patterns, concluding "These findings indicate that human racial crosses present no additional risks for malocclusion".

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:03 PM

It could. I know people who have large teeth from one parent, but the smaller jaws from the other parent. Makes for overcrowding & lots of 3rd molar extractions!

2e5dc29c61f97d335ffb990508424719

on August 05, 2012
at 05:16 PM

I think it has more to do with diets as Weston Price evinced. There just is not that much genetic variation. Your points are valid and worthy of research. Bringing them up does not make you a racist. No worries.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:11 AM

Orthotropics, excellent reference, thanks for the info!

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:30 PM

In some genetically pure countries like Korea (which is 99% homogeneous) they have plenty of problems teeth alignment.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Thanks Luckie and John. I don't worry about being called a racist, I worry about an idea not being considered because of political correctness.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on August 06, 2012
at 10:06 AM

I would think that if folks from different races breed, the result would be offspring with far less genetic issues than more. After all, we have a system of pheromones that cause us to be attracted to those who we have less genetic material in common with so as to prevent interbreeding.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:48 PM

Don't worry about being called a racist. I was once called a racist and an anti-Semite because I pointed out that lactose tolerance varies among people of differing genetic backgrounds. Pointing out differences doesn't mean assigning judgement.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 09, 2012
at 06:24 AM

Interestingly you can cross a Great Dane with a Chihuahua, to produce offspring. A single canine tooth of the great Dane is more massive than the Chihuahua's whole head. Each of the offsring (I suggest you use the Dane as the Mum) are a varying sized between both parents, where can the specific genetic script have come from, but jaws and teeth that match perfectly. There cannot be a specific script it is a code that can vary it does and is unlikely to be the causes of these problems.

0
1e9164a5a54003ac247d49c574dc7bfc

on August 13, 2012
at 04:33 AM

I know so very little about all of the things you have said, but thankfully am not so dull-witted as to not be able to glean a little bit, here and there from all these posts.

I will say that I would be very much interested, when it's written, to read a (concise) piece on this issue that would not be so full of jargon as to numb my mind, and remind me why I went into the humanities and not the sciences in college. This is said with appreciation and respect for the level of knowledge you have on the topic, and a sad acknowledgement that it is simply not in me to reach it.

Until that time, I'll take more care to smile when I sunbathe, in the hopes my gap closes too, if nothing else, it will provide for some interesting looks from those around me, which I am always happy to have as well (it makes my day a bit more interesting).

Cheers, Jared

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:12 AM

Jared, Have you been to the web sites; http://www.facefocused.com/ http://www.orthotropics.com/ and while you or anyone else who see this is in the mood please do follow us at; http://www.facebook.com/orthotropics to follow general info about orthotropics, and http://www.facebook.com/YCrookedTeeth which is the campaign sit to push the profession into a free, fair and open debate on this issue, this is not an issue where we should be fringe, there is adequate good quality evidence in peer reviewed journals to PROVE that crooked teeth is a disease of the environment.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:13 AM

Jared, Have you been to the web sites; orthotropics.com or .co.uk and while you or anyone else who see this is in the mood please do follow us at; facebook.com/orthotropics to follow general info about orthotropics, and facebook.com/YCrookedTeeth which is the campaign sit to push the profession into a free, fair and open debate on this issue, this is not an issue where we should be fringe, there is adequate good quality evidence in peer reviewed journals to PROVE that crooked teeth is a disease of the environment. – Orthotropics 0 secs ago For more Paleo Diet hacks: Why are teeth and ja

1e9164a5a54003ac247d49c574dc7bfc

(396)

on August 23, 2012
at 07:42 PM

That was almost all one sentence. Impressed. No, I've not been to them. I do hope this produces some compelling words to highlight accurately the extent of the effects of our modern lives.

0
0d42a3e52e5fe6c4dd7269ce3ab91abb

on August 06, 2012
at 10:03 PM

I hope I get to see this presentation online at some point.

I have been living and eating and studying paleo for a year and I am convinced that my TMJ, apena and crooked teeth would not exist if I had been paleo since birth.

I had little to no protein as a kid (my diet was strict vegetarian, high sugar) and the orthodontist convinced my mother that because she had a small mouth and my father had big teeth (hardly) that I needed five permanent teeth pulled (they were gone by the time I was 12, then my wisdom teeth in my early twenties). I had TMJ/TMD since I was 3 and began using a jaw re positioner when I was 14 (still need it - a hawley -at the age of 43). I also have severe sleep apnea at 155 lbs and 5"2.

I have spent the last few months, based on my WAP research, wondering if my jaw would have grown larger had it not been for my poor diet and missing teeth. My son ground his teeth and stopped when he was 12.

I also suspect that if my jaw was larger, I would have more space at the back of my tongue and wouldn't have the apena (i have also considered having my jaw pulled forward - not gonna happen)? I always wanted braces but was told they would make my TMJ pain much worse but now I am thinking of going for the braces.

any thoughts?? Lisa

0d42a3e52e5fe6c4dd7269ce3ab91abb

(55)

on August 07, 2012
at 10:46 PM

Thank you Mike, I will definitely ask for a consultation, and buy a lottery ticket :) - his office is two hours from my aunts.

0d42a3e52e5fe6c4dd7269ce3ab91abb

(55)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:36 PM

I just checked Dr. Hang's and your sites and my mind is full of joyous fireworks at the thought that my OSA may not be all my fault! My ENT said it was, and the cure was fat loss. Lost 29Lbs with Paleo (20lbs to go) and it didn't make a lick of difference. What if OSA is related to my teeth/bit as well as my "hellatious" sinusitis/rhinitis, and my TMJ? (I just started cranial osteopathic treatments with great success.) My mind is swirling-so much to learn- wish I was at AHS 2012. THANK YOU!! for your posts and info.(smile) Lisa PS I'd prefer London over CA (I'm ready for a windfall)

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:53 AM

The presentation that I will be giving at the AHS is about linking these issues (although I've changed the angle slightly to cover Vits more). The conclusion that I am coming to is that the Vits in your diet may influence pre birth effects but other factors have a greater effect in later development certainly by the age of 6. So rest a little easier about your diet. If you are going to go ahead there is only one person that I would recommend down this which would be Bill Hang in CA, http://www.facefocused.com/ReOpen.html contact him and discuss it before taking any action, best Mike

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:05 AM

Luckylisa, I would recommend Bill for adults over me, you get good at what you do the most and he is certainly better for Adults, did you see the post below from Anna?

0
35bc838bd11ae409f687f7bf2bcae071

on August 06, 2012
at 09:03 PM

You might find some useful information on the role of Vitamin K2 in the book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" by Kate Rheaume-Bleue. That was the first time I read something that supported WAP's thoughts on fat soluble vitamins by illustrating what may be/is going on at a biochemical and cellular level. Basically, K2 plays a very important role in mineral transport: helping to put minerals where they belong and keeping them out of where they don't.

I wish I highlighted the passage, but if I recall correctly, there was a page or two proposing that the tissues that make up the dental arch(es?) hardens prematurely without sufficient K2. I hope I didn't bungle that too badly, but it was something along those lines.

The Standard American Diet happens to be poor in K2 as conventionally raised animals are not pastured. The best food source of K2 is more common in Japan: Natto, a fermented soy dish that has a really "special" flavor apparently.

35bc838bd11ae409f687f7bf2bcae071

on August 07, 2012
at 01:43 AM

I always meant to track down the source of this claim in the book I mentioned so this is a good time. This is what the author cited: Vitamin K--its essential role in craniofacial development. A review of the literature regarding vitamin K and craniofacial development. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8018065 And another take: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/11/malocclusion-disease-of-civilization.html

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 11:16 AM

Perfect Mister Worms, The 2nd quote is empirical but the 1st is exactly what I have been looking for, thank you very much. A review paper from the dept of anatomy in Sydney (my old dental anatomist emigrated to work at the dept of dental anatomy there). It does greatly interest me why many baby's are born with problems, although the great tendency is for some spontaneous correction in the first few years of life. The cranial osteopaths have put this down to birth injury but it certainly does not explain everything. Mike

0
0c0c13c9a82616643ecdca61f5cc5f67

on August 06, 2012
at 06:02 PM

In response to the questioner:

So glad to hear that. I realize you need hard science, while most of my education is n-1 and forums like this. However, there may be some more clues to your journey with the links below:

Read all you can by Weston Price. He published over 260 papers. For 25 years he was director of research for what become the Am. Dental Assoc., with over 150 researchers working for him. He did amazing research with malocclusions.

"Dr. Weston A. Price, the quintessential holistic dental physician, not only specialized in nutrition and the treatment of dental foci (such as failed root canals), but was a trailblazer in functional orthodontics as well. In another dramatic functional orthodontic case, Price widened the narrow upper arch of a Down’s Syndrome teen approximately 1/2 inch with a palatal expansion rod device located between his upper teeth. In so doing, the new maxillary bone filled in rapidly. This space was later maintained with a fixed bridge that had two additional teeth attached.

Once again, the results from expansion of the palate were striking. This sixteen-year-old patient was previously measured with an I.Q. of that of a four-year-old, and he was so seriously physically and mentally impaired that he typically played all day with blocks on the floor. After six months of palate expansion however, he was able to go to the grocery story and bring back correct change to his mother, change trains and make transfers on streetcars accurately and safely, and read children’s stories and newspaper headlines.

The above quote from here also mentions references for functional orthodontic treatment. Dr. Louisa Williams, who wrote the article, is a good source. I've heard her speak. Her book Radical Medicine is ground breaking.

The most important point in that article: improper nutrition causes the dental deformities. I believe this is the answer you're looking for.

Here's an interesting selection -- with great photo -- from Weston Price using nutrition instead of orthodontia on a 10 year old girl:

The words of Dr. Price . . . . ." The problem as to whether this growth process is latent and how long it may remain so is a very important one. My clinical studies have accordingly been directed to ascertain to what extent changes may be made by reinforcing the dietaries of the individuals with suitable fat-soluble activators and natural foods rich in minerals, particularly phosphorus. The results have been most gratifying and encouraging. A typical case is shown in Fig. 10. In the view to the left the girl was ten years and nine months of age and in the view to the right she was eleven years and eight months. The lack of development of the middle third of the face was that the upper lateral incisors were occluding inside the lower cuspids at the time the first picture was taken. Under a reinforced diet the middle third of the face has grown forward to the position shown on the right, in which the lateral incisors are one-eighth of an inch outside the lower incisors.

Most interesting to me is the amazing mental and emotional transformations of people that get this kind of repair. I enjoyed a talk on this here. Goofy looking guy, but a fascinating talk. I can send you a download link if you're curious. This talk on Neuro-Cranial Re-structuring -- have you heard of it? -- explains how the shape of your head affects your health. And the problems associated with pulling teeth and orthodontia. And if your bones aren't formed well, how that effects your cerebral spinal fluid, and thus, all levels of health. This Neuro-Cranial Restructuring can correct posture permanently by opening the sphenoid sutures, release strictures to the brain and spinal cord, and normalize the shape of the brain.Furthermore, this speaker gives an excellent overview of the medical environment in the days of Dr. Weston Price – and the radical paradigm shift he ushered into the world.

Again, for most of us it is too late. We need to get the mothers-to-be aware of all this. The developmental years are critical.

An excellent treatment of the diet to healing cavaties -- I know, I know, won't help an adults crooked teeth -- is Rami Nagel's book Cure Tooth Decay. He also has a chapter on orthodontia and correctnig the bite. My friends and myself have examples of healing cavaties that the dentist wanted to fill. Even broken teeth re-enameling without any decay. Unfortunately, the broken tooth hasn't re-grown . . . yet! And a friends dis-colored teeth from tetracycline (spelling?) in pregnancy are returning to their white color. All with a nutrient dense diet. That's typically more than Paleo. Seeking out nutrient density fits into Paleo, but it's also a more decisive approach than just 'Paleo.' For instance, making sure you eat your liver several times a week, and taking your cod liver oil, etc.

In summary, improper nutrition causes the dental deformities. I believe this is the answer you're looking for.

Please dive into Dr. Weston A. Price's research, original published documents.

Click through and read all the links above.

Read Chris Masterjohn's excellent summary of Vitamin K2 research.

Google up Dr. Louisa Williams and send her an email (I have. She answers!)

Send an email to Rami Nagel -- he has really specialized in teeth and diet. He is likely to know some things to help you.

And, please forgive me, I couched this post in a way that I hope could be helpful to others. Apologies for any insults to your intelligence -- it was not intended that way.

You can help alot of people with this. I wish you all the best.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 07, 2012
at 09:38 AM

Michael Thank you very much for taking the time to put that together, it was most helpful and I completely agree with the format that you give it in, forums like this are an important resource and should be well written, as you have. Due to space restrictions I may take the liberty of answering in a new answer, below. Mike

0
Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

on August 06, 2012
at 09:00 AM

I've had several comments back on the importance of Vit D in facial development or rather the importance of it's deficiency in causing dental and skeletal malocclusion. These are exactly the comments that I was wanting to hear back as this was the view of WAP, who has been very influential in the Paleo and Ancestral groups. If I put up a few arguments could anyone try to refute them? Thank you;

1) The pattern of spread of Vit D ( as shown on this link http://www.vitamindwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page_id=2053) is almost the inverse of the pattern of spread of malocclusion and its severity.

2) Why is the level of malocclusion roughly similar in Anglo Saxons through out the US or between the UK and Australia where you have very different sunlight levels.

3) How is does a prenatal injury explain some very dramatic late onset distortions in facial shape from late in life from a change in breathing pattern http://www.orthotropics.com/patients_parents/crookedteeth.html or nerve injury such as a stroke, leprosy or trauma

What I am really looking for is the underlying evidence, study, person, observation on which you base the view that Vit D is related to dental/ skeletal issues. Opinions are important but I am looking for your influences (and am not doing a classic medical show me your evidence or rock on). This is a very important area in which we need some answers and where the common medical consensus seems to be somewhat wide of the mark and I really want to know the truth in it.

Thanks

Mike

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on August 06, 2012
at 10:09 AM

It points to refined food like products containing things such as wheat and sugar.

0
592fdaa77ec6342b736f1d25962aab7f

(547)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:29 PM

I've read articles on bottle feeding and/or early weaning contributing to modern teeth and jaw misalignment.

0
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 05, 2012
at 04:26 PM

I haven't done any research, nor do I have any theories. But as a curious person, I'd appreciate discussion of the role of breastfeeding, bottle feeding, and formula. I get the impression that the cultures with the most dental problems also have practices that either discourage or limit breastfeeding, in terms of when/how often in a day, for how many months, and where it can be done. Could bottle feeding have an impact--even with breast milk? How about formula?

Is it the case that all teeth (however undeveloped) have already formed and are mostly on the path they will follow into the mouth by the time teething begins? Is it the case that most babies optimally would not begin consuming wheat or other suspect foods until teething had commenced? I think ability to eat some solid food, and the appearance of teeth, occur in roughly the same period. Is this suggestive?

Perhaps this question has been thoroughly considered, but since you're trying to prepare for something coming up soon, I'd rather make the suggestion than assume it's been considered.

Interesting question, and looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 01:02 AM

The research comparing breast and bottle is not convincing, the focus has moved to weaning and some good work is being down by Gill Rapley, http://www.rapleyweaning.com/ who come from another angle completely and has written a book Baby led Weaning that has been very popular. Kevin Boyd is very interested in this area. He is covering this angle and there is certainly some interesting devleopments.

0
F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on August 05, 2012
at 04:24 PM

There's a dentist out there who thinks things go from bad (WAP narrowing of the face) to worse (total adenoidal face) because the inability to breathe leads children to hold their mouths open, which only exacerbates the narrowing of the jaw. He suggests somehow forcing children to close their mouths lessens the problem. I remember as a child always being told to close my mouth. I don't think I have an adenoidal face but I did have orthodontia and my face is pretty narrow.

Ff5e86ffb129939355ab6f3c8e85ba1c

(155)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:58 AM

I would imagine that that is my father John Mew, who has been saying this for 40 years, developing the orthotropic philosophy and the tropic premise.

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