5

votes

Interaction of vitamin A, vitamin D -- which way?

Answered on January 07, 2015
Created December 16, 2010 at 7:59 PM

In Chris Masterjohn's review of The 4 hour body, he quotes Tim Ferris as saying:

Supplemental vitamin D increases your need for vitamin A, so don't forget the aforementioned cod liver, which includes both.

and agrees.

Does anyone know of evidence for this?

(I've already heard lots of argument on both sides in the other direction, i.e. that vitamin A may interfere with vitamin D.)

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on July 11, 2012
at 04:50 PM

Sunscreen interferes with vitamin D production. I don't think it should be used at all, except in the most uncompromising of situations.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on April 19, 2012
at 08:59 PM

@Korion... she did say "overtime". You don't know how long she took it compared to how long you have been taking it.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on April 19, 2012
at 06:32 PM

Hmm, I don't get any of the symptoms even with more than 30k UI of retinol daily.

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on February 26, 2012
at 05:29 PM

Rich, thanks for the link. It's quite interesting!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 23, 2011
at 08:34 PM

http://www.superhumanradio.com/components/com_podcast/media/mp3s/SHR_Show_820.mp3 The second part of this interview Dr. Cannell talks about the A/D balance. He does not recommend supplementing with preformed A.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 02:27 AM

Quilt, you agree that raw milk is for children while they're growing but not after they're done (>21)? Raw milk (as well as pasteurized milk) has IGF-1 which spurs bone groth. I believe it is the widespread proliferation of milk which is spurring the growth in stature of Asians, Indians, etc. For long, those in Scandinavia tended to be taller than the southern Europeans, I believe, for that reason. However, the problem is the higher rates of cancer since for these people milk consumption (and high serum IFG-1)continues into adulthood and beyond.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 24, 2011
at 01:14 PM

Raw milk consumption is perfectly fine for most humans.......but when they should stop drinking it is the point of contention. Milk is not a forever food. The most compelling argument for continuation of raw milk now is that vitamin K2 has been virtually processed out of our diets by pasturization processes. So you either supplement it or drink Raw milk of fermented french cheeses and maybe consider Natto.

5f0158c23fcb5636e57b4ce097784da0

(1386)

on February 09, 2011
at 10:15 AM

great answer. i came to a similar conclusion that ~1000IU or retinol is probably a good place to stay. more than that, and i also get similar side effects as you described above.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:52 PM

While I agree completely--1000%--that they are all important and have a complex interactive relationshop, I disagree with his (and the WAPF's) recommendations regarding ratios. But yes, absolutely, we need a source for D, A and K. Not any one to the exclusion of the others.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:50 PM

Just out of curiosity, have you checked your D level per labcorp or ZRT? It would be interesting to see where the D level is...

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:49 PM

Have you read the WAPF papers on breastfeeding and supplementation? On more than one occasion, WAPF has shown that they will defend their position even in the face of solid evidence to the contrary

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:47 PM

Also, one of the significant weaknesses of WAPF is that they favor ethnographic data (and all the weaknesses that entails) over current scientific research. While my take is that both are very important, when there is pretty clear science on something (ie Cannel's gathering data regarding vitamin A), I'll follow the science over one the ethnographic data gathered 100 or so years ago by a couple of people.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:45 PM

My statement regarding evolution though, still stands. During the evolution of the human genome, high *daily* intakes of vitamin A would not likely have been available, but high circulating serum 25(OH)D was likely the norm.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 17, 2010
at 05:43 PM

That's interesting. I like self-experimentation. I'm not sure about it not being available. The Inuit apparently got a lot of vitamin A from seal liver, and I've read that the liver of some carnivores like Polar Bear has so much as to be deadly if a single person ate it all.

Dd017a9b1f2d6a9c220859f780da09c5

on December 17, 2010
at 05:35 PM

Based on the description of how fishermen fermented cod livers back in the 1800's, I could imagine this being done on a smaller scale a much longer time ago (http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/183-clo-manufacturing.html)

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:42 PM

I don't think WAPF would countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+D benefits of FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:16 PM

I don't think WAPF would countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+D benefits on FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:15 PM

I don't think WAPF wouldn't countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+ Vit D benefits on FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 17, 2010
at 12:25 PM

Yeah, it's not an either or relationship. Go too far in either direction and you get issues.

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10 Answers

6
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 16, 2010
at 08:59 PM

Aha, I just found this: Is Vitamin D Safe? Still Depends on Vitamins A and K! Testimonials and a Human Study. I should have known he wouldn't leave us up in the air with that. There's a lot there, and I haven't read it all yet, but it seems a good place to start.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on December 17, 2010
at 12:25 PM

Yeah, it's not an either or relationship. Go too far in either direction and you get issues.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:52 PM

While I agree completely--1000%--that they are all important and have a complex interactive relationshop, I disagree with his (and the WAPF's) recommendations regarding ratios. But yes, absolutely, we need a source for D, A and K. Not any one to the exclusion of the others.

5
Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

on December 17, 2010
at 04:49 PM

I've been experimenting with A and D intake for about 7 years. My D levels are maintained in the middle of the reference range, per labcorp or ZRT at 65 ng/mL. For me, this requires 6,000 IU D per day. I've experimented with A intakes from 3-4x my D intake per day, down to my current 1/6th. At 20-25,000 IU A per day, I over time developed symptoms of A toxicity, especially excessively dry skin, lips and mucous membranes. Over time, I tracked serum A levels and supplementation, finally settling where I am now, at 1,000 IU preformed (not beta arotene) A intake per day.

In an evolutionary environment, it seems highly unlikely that we could have acheived A intakes of 20,000 IU per day which is what Masterjohn and the WAPF recommend. Nor would we have had access to high vitamin cod liver oil. The liver is just one small part of an animal...one part that would have been shared among (likely) many people and would have been eaten in ratio to the rest of the animal, including the fat, muscle meat, other organs, bone marrow, brains and blood. My perception is that a daily high intake of retinol just wouldn't have been possible.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on December 17, 2010
at 05:43 PM

That's interesting. I like self-experimentation. I'm not sure about it not being available. The Inuit apparently got a lot of vitamin A from seal liver, and I've read that the liver of some carnivores like Polar Bear has so much as to be deadly if a single person ate it all.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:47 PM

Also, one of the significant weaknesses of WAPF is that they favor ethnographic data (and all the weaknesses that entails) over current scientific research. While my take is that both are very important, when there is pretty clear science on something (ie Cannel's gathering data regarding vitamin A), I'll follow the science over one the ethnographic data gathered 100 or so years ago by a couple of people.

Dd017a9b1f2d6a9c220859f780da09c5

on December 17, 2010
at 05:35 PM

Based on the description of how fishermen fermented cod livers back in the 1800's, I could imagine this being done on a smaller scale a much longer time ago (http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/183-clo-manufacturing.html)

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:45 PM

My statement regarding evolution though, still stands. During the evolution of the human genome, high *daily* intakes of vitamin A would not likely have been available, but high circulating serum 25(OH)D was likely the norm.

5f0158c23fcb5636e57b4ce097784da0

(1386)

on February 09, 2011
at 10:15 AM

great answer. i came to a similar conclusion that ~1000IU or retinol is probably a good place to stay. more than that, and i also get similar side effects as you described above.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on April 19, 2012
at 08:59 PM

@Korion... she did say "overtime". You don't know how long she took it compared to how long you have been taking it.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on April 19, 2012
at 06:32 PM

Hmm, I don't get any of the symptoms even with more than 30k UI of retinol daily.

2
6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on January 27, 2012
at 06:55 PM

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on February 26, 2012
at 05:29 PM

Rich, thanks for the link. It's quite interesting!

1
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on December 17, 2010
at 01:47 PM

And there is this posting out of the Vitamin D Council regarding Vit A being antagonistic to Vit D.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/PDFs/cannell-et-al-vitamin-d-deficiency-epidemic.pdf

The study out of Annals of Otology, Rhinology & Laryngology 117(11):864-870. says that they cannot recommend the use of CLO.

A meta-analysis concluded that vitamin A, when given alone, slightly increased the incidence of respiratory tract infections.46 If vitamin A increases the risk of respiratory infections by antagonizing the action of vitamin D, its high content in modern cod liver oils will mask the benefit of adequate vitamin D nutrition. As the prevalence of vitamin A deficiency in the United States ??? but not in the Third World ??? is much lower than the prevalence of subclinical vitamin A toxicity,47 we cannot recommend cod liver oil or even multivitamins with preformed retinol (retinyl palmitate and retinyl acetate) for either adults or children. (We exclude fish body oil from our warning, as it contains no vitamin A ??? or vitamin D ??? but is a very important source of omega-3 fatty acids.)

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:16 PM

I don't think WAPF would countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+D benefits on FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:49 PM

Have you read the WAPF papers on breastfeeding and supplementation? On more than one occasion, WAPF has shown that they will defend their position even in the face of solid evidence to the contrary

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:15 PM

I don't think WAPF wouldn't countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+ Vit D benefits on FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on December 17, 2010
at 02:42 PM

I don't think WAPF would countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+D benefits of FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

1
5f0158c23fcb5636e57b4ce097784da0

(1386)

on December 17, 2010
at 11:48 AM

good question. i'm just now experimenting with different dosages of retinol (supplement made from from cod liver), while keeping my usual intake of D3 (10'000IU/d) steady. result so far: even at a relatively moderate 20'000IU/d, i already get some of the typical side effects like reduction of activity in frontal cortex, lethargy, slight problems with visual and muscular coordination, depressive mood, which all are described in the literature about retinoids. even at 10'000IU those effects are perceptible as well, but just barely. luckily, these effects go away a few hours after taking it. not quite sure how to interpret this. could be, that my A status is already "full" and therefore i'm overdosing even with the otherwise harmless "UL" amount of 10k, or it could be that i am deficient, and those symptoms are just an indicator of "filling up" my retinol stores. i'm now backing down to 5k and see what happens with time :) (of course, one could always do a blood test. not sure how reliable this is for determining vitamin A status tho).

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on December 17, 2010
at 07:50 PM

Just out of curiosity, have you checked your D level per labcorp or ZRT? It would be interesting to see where the D level is...

0
Medium avatar

on January 07, 2015
at 07:00 PM

I have had been feeing dreadfully depressed the last few months.  Doesn't seem situational, more chemical.  I've supplemented with 10,000IU D nightly for three years.  Only other supplements are some calcium before bed (induces REM sleep), magnesium, chromium, and B/C.  

Took a 10,000 A/retinol last night.  Slept like the dead.  Woke up this morning noticably even feeling and a complete lack of the usually pronounced 'any time I'm awake' depression feelings.  

Just before, and during my morning coffee, I was already happy and in a good, if even, mood, and it became noticable that, while coffee usually is my hour or two of good feelings lately, I was already happy and coffee didn't change anything.

So noticeable that I started to wonder what I did differently  It took a while to even consider A as that isn't normally associated with depression.

After a lot of searching, Ive been to WAPF and seen how too much D without A depleted A and causes D toxicity symptoms.  I've not felt any of the other D toxicity symptoms, but I'll be damned if that A didn't have a huge impact.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 19, 2012
at 05:55 PM

What exactly is the capability of significant vitamin A?

Whilst vitamin A is most commonly known for it's crucial part in eye sight, this particular vitamin even takes part in bodily functions connected with the disease fighting capability, servicing of epithelial and even mucous tissue, development, reproduction, along with bones development. When it comes to foods, vitamin A frequently comes up as a fats element generally known as retinyl palmitate. The body system changes retinyl palmitate to 3 metabolically dynamic sorts of that essential vitamin: retinol, retinal, as well as retinoic acid.

Works with Perspective

Commonly the person's retina incorporates 4 sorts of photo-pigments which put away vitamin a deficiency. One of these simple pigmentation, generally known as rhodopsin, is situated in the rod body cells of the retina. Rhodopsin permits the rod cells to find minimal concentrations of lumination, as well as, as a result, takes on a essential position in the adapting of the eyeball to low light environments as well as night time eyesight.

Retinal, the actual aldehyde type of the particular necessary vitamin, takes part in the production of rhodopsin, plus in the collection of compound side effects which induces visible excitation, which can be activated from illumination hitting the rod cells. The actual additional 3 pigments, jointly generally known as iodopsins, are located on the cone cells of the retina and so are in charge of day time eye-sight.

0
1ac8e976f84cb2566ecfbbcce1817351

on April 24, 2011
at 04:13 AM

Even though I have the highest respect for Sally Fanon, Chris Masterjohn, and the WAPF, Fanon's comment in a Sean Croxton interview threw me for a bit of a spin. She said raw milk consumption has been going on for tens of thousands of years and is not only safe, but for everyone. I could be wrong but I thought the domestication of animals has only occurred for approximately LESS THAN ten thousand years? Maybe it's just my bitter sentiment to my lactose-intolerance that's talking...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 24, 2011
at 01:14 PM

Raw milk consumption is perfectly fine for most humans.......but when they should stop drinking it is the point of contention. Milk is not a forever food. The most compelling argument for continuation of raw milk now is that vitamin K2 has been virtually processed out of our diets by pasturization processes. So you either supplement it or drink Raw milk of fermented french cheeses and maybe consider Natto.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 02:27 AM

Quilt, you agree that raw milk is for children while they're growing but not after they're done (>21)? Raw milk (as well as pasteurized milk) has IGF-1 which spurs bone groth. I believe it is the widespread proliferation of milk which is spurring the growth in stature of Asians, Indians, etc. For long, those in Scandinavia tended to be taller than the southern Europeans, I believe, for that reason. However, the problem is the higher rates of cancer since for these people milk consumption (and high serum IFG-1)continues into adulthood and beyond.

0
F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

on December 17, 2010
at 02:41 PM

I don't think WAPF would countinuously defend their position on the Vit A+D benefits of FCLO if there were none... There has to be more to this.

-1
23c00ce3bdd208cdd7cfd61f26aec727

on July 11, 2012
at 02:51 PM

How should we ensure we obtain an adequate amount of vitamin D? Direct sunlight is certainly a fantastic source of vitamin D. While you are exposed to sunlight, your whole body easily makes vitamin D. When you are outside in the sun's rays, ensure you apply a decent sunscreen lotion to protect yourself from burns. Get just as much exposure to the sun as possible. Why? The body easily generates vitamin D as we are exposed to sunlight. For people with minimal exposure to the sunshine, whether it's because you eventually get the job done within the house or maybe reside somewhere it doesn't receive a good deal of sunlight, make sure to have healthy foods which have been very good sources of vitamin D. It is usually in most our food items. A lot of our own food items dairy, natural yogurt, cereals, and also some types of bread usually are rich in vitamin D. Additionally, it comes in a natural way in fish, tuna fish, and also chicken eggs.

If you do not receive the right amount of vitamin D because of minimal sun exposure or not ingesting an adequate amount of food products having vitamin D inside them, you could just take a multivitamin pill. Visit this link for more details. Vitamins can be a smart way of obtaining the right amount of vitamins and minerals we might be low in the diet. What are the results unless you receive a sufficient quantity of vitamin D in your daily diet? You can find 3 frequent bone fragments softening condition that may occur simply because of failing to get more than enough vitamin D: Rickets, Osteomalacia, along with Osteoporosis.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on July 11, 2012
at 04:50 PM

Sunscreen interferes with vitamin D production. I don't think it should be used at all, except in the most uncompromising of situations.

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