15

votes

Hack Jack Kronk's Latest Lab Results - Sept 2011

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 14, 2011 at 8:25 PM

I have not been able to see my brand new little baby niece because I had not gotten the Pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine yet. So I went in to test to see if I have immunity (which I do! yay!!). While there, I figured I would take the opp to get checked for a host of other markers as well.

So as a follow up to my question from July, I got poked again on Friday Sept 9, 2011 (70 days after last readings). This time FULLY fasted for 12 hours. lol.

Since that time, I have made the following changes: No nuts, No bananas, No creatine, less cream, less butter, less figs, less honey, less caffeine, more coconut oil, more red palm oil, more sweet potatoes and potatoes, LOTS of full sun exposure (3-5 days per week), upped lifting from 3x to 5x per week, added VitC supplementation 500mg.

The only data missing from the below results is the VAP cholesterol data, which I am still waiting on.

I will add the VAP results as soon as I get them, but looking at these numbers separately, I am encouraged that perhaps my body is happy with whatever I am doing afterall!

What do you guys make of this given my Paleo diet and concerns about blood lipids? Specifically with VitD, CRP, and Thyroid?

UPADTE: I just received the VAP numbers. To say that I'm disappointed is the biggest understatement ever. I am nearly at a loss for words. I am sorry to report this but I have to do a 180. I need to do something completely different, as all the changes I made that were supposed to be good appear to have been not good at all. Maybe my genes will not support a high fat diet. Maybe it's the starch. Seems so strange for that to be true because of my fitness and my other markers in these labs, but these cholesterol numbers are frightening. I have higher VitD, ate less fructose, waaaay less O6, and yet my Trigs and VLDL skyrocketed. Plus all the foods that were supposed to raise my HDL failed miserably in the highest order. I'm confused folks. I'm frustrated. I need help.

alt text alt text alt text

UPDATE 11/14/2011: I emailed my doc:


Well I am writing to you now after much thought and additional research.

I must figure out the following:

  1. Why do I have low HDL, and predominantly high small dense LDL and high fasting triglycerides?
  2. Why do I have the same nagging and chronic pain in my chest that has been there for quite some time now? (this feeling is fueling my drive to find out more. I absolutely cannot just live with this) Are they related? Not sure, but possibly. I know that the feeling in my chest is virtually non-existent after a good workout, which I do quite often.

So here's the deal. I need to be able to do more testing to gather more info because whatever I am (or am not) doing is not working.

I want to be tested for the following:

  • Testosterone levels

  • FULL thyroid panel, including thyroid antibodies, free T3, free T4, and rT3 etc. (and anything else that can help assess my thyroid function)

  • Cortisol levels

  • Any tests that can check the health of my liver

FOLLOW UP testing

  • Lipid Panel (and including VitD, CRP, Iron)

Other tests that I need:

  • Genetic testing (for ApoE phenotype determination)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11160558

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7749804

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11375438

You say below that getting Testosterone and Cortisol checked would not be of clinical significance, but I disagree, and I am again directly requesting to have this checked.

I will do whatever is necessary to get this testing done. So I guess my real intent here is to see how much of this you can help me out with.

Please let me know how I can proceed with this. Thanks.


My Doctor's reply was that all of the above "sounds reasonable and to setup an appt to come in and order the appropriate tests".

Making progress!!

44739854bd06eb5c32af5d33aa866864

(859)

on February 08, 2012
at 04:23 PM

Great post grace... I'm waiting on my 23andMe results, I'll be sure to check for the ApoE4 allele(s), especially since I feel noticeably better VLC just from past experimentation.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:17 PM

My research continues though and I will keep you updated as I discover possible pieces of the puzzle. In general though, the more your diet/lifestyle resembles that of actual HGs, the more it all takes care of itself. I know it's a poor match for our modern lives, but for me it's seamless. If my advice ever becomes insulting/condescending/vague like some of the stuff you've been receiving, let me know.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:14 PM

I can't imagine a scenario where you do those things and LDL and VLDL don't drop. I would have no way of accounting for that short of some kind of endocrine disruption. The trouble I have is that my ascetic's diet is so simple that our diets vary hugely. I'm allergic to coconut, I don't drink, when I went in last and had TGs of 37 I was eating at least 100-150g of starch but virtually no fructose, etc. I was actually not walking nearly as much at the time, so it may be a lot lower now. I couldn't tell you if it's all those things or just one.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:18 PM

I have been doing a lot of what you describe in your instruction above (in your answer). I have seriously cut back on dairy fats, nrealy eliminating butter and cream completely. Also no sour cream. No ghee. No coconut oil. No cheese. Also, I have been walking in a mostly fasted state (I say mostly because sometimes it's several hours after eating breakfast (like right before lunch). Or right before dinner. I go in tomorrow morning to do another VAP and everything else. Hopefully some of these changes have made a positive impact. But if not, I might need to give it more time.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:27 AM

I just mean keep it low intensity so it's purely fat burning. What's good for bodyfat reduction is good for TG oxidation.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:24 AM

Travis - what do you mean by this? *"Do not exceed your anaerobic threshold."*

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:04 AM

When I went in for my appt, I got some new Doc. She wasn't "in the know" about my communications with the head Doctor of the practice that okay'd all these tests so, idiotically, she argued with me about everything. I stood my ground hard though, and she was like... wow you really know your stuff. And I wanted to say "YES I DO SO STFU!!!" Ahhhhhh!!! Sorry but it was very frustrating. I was fully fasted but she wanted approval confirmation for everything so she sent me away without drawing blood. Gotta go back again. I tell you what folks, conventional medical care just doesn't cut the mustard.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 05:59 AM

Travis - Yah that's why I insisted on a full thyroid panel. I have been supping 200mg of Selenium daily for several weeks now. Remember though, that my sister was diagnosed with Hash Hypo a few weeks ago. In that case, Iodine could make it worse. Then again, she is overweight and had 5.59 TSH. I'm interested to see what my results will be. I had to fight like a wild tiger to get them to do all this stuff.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 01:55 AM

I dunno though, it seems like HDL would be elevated if it were purely a thyroid issue. Se and I should be supped by anyone not eating ocean creatures every day though...

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 01:52 AM

Jack: I think it's possible that you have subclinical hypothyroidism that is affecting your blood lipids. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1990.tb01904.x/abstract You could get the panel done, but seeing just your TSH level leads me to believe that you ought to be supp'ing iodide and selenium or else eating some ocean creatures every day. I don't know if it could account for all of the difference, but I think it's a possible explanation.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:01 PM

Kronk, NOW u r more educated then 120% of all docs on diagnostics. ha aahahh!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:00 PM

The stool test offers insights into what is going on in the gut. Naturallynits limited by technology in that it cant sample the small intestines where all the damage from western civilizations diseases are mainlynoccurring. Matthew, thanks I didnt realize thst, will ck it out.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 10:57 PM

The ASI is very useful. Dont underestimate this simple, cheap test. Adrenals are the foundation of good health!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 10:56 PM

Kronk, I see people get the heartscan then freak out. It has no value if the plaque is on its way out and even if its a triple or quad score, again, the vale is meanlingless to me in an aintinflammatory paleo framework.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Grace - the Rockwell Nutrition Metramix blood test looks like it might tell me something. I eat a lot of the foods on their list of 90. Also, the cortisol adrenal stress could be helpful too. The CT scan would probably come after these other tests. It could very well be that I don't have plaque buildup/calification at all... but then again, it's not just the feeling that I'm concerned about. It's the feeling combined with my labs that has me concerned. Remove one or the other from the equation, and my level of concern would tank. Thanks Grace.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:37 PM

Grace - the Rockwell Nutrition Metramix blood test looks like it might tell me something. I eat a lot of the foods on their list of 90. Also, the cortisol adrenal stress could be helpful too. The CT scan would probably come after these other tests. It could very well be that I don't have plaque buildup/calification at all... but then again, it's not just the feeling that I'm concerned about. It's the feeling combined within my labs that has me concerned. Remove one or the other from the equation, and my level of concern would tank.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:48 AM

@Grace: A minor point - I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify Escherichia coli correctly in their sample lab report. E.coli is not an obligate aerobe.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:39 AM

@Grace: A minor point - I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify *Escherichia coli* correctly in their promotional material. *E.coli* is not an obligate aerobe. Mycobacteria sp. are also incorrectly classified obligate anaerobes.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:26 AM

@Grace: I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify *Escherichia coli* correctly in their promotional material. *E.coli* is not an obligate aerobe.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on November 15, 2011
at 01:40 AM

I can tell you, there is no football coach that will let his players go on a low carb diet. It's like putting sumo wrestlers on a low carb diet. Do u know what sumo wrestlers eat? Rice, corn, beans, peas. Basically, they're fed like our conventionally-bred cattle. If you lose your mass, you're done as a football player. Now I can believe retired NFL or MLB players being on VLC. Allen Wells (NY Yankees), e.g., is on a low carb diet. But no NFL player is on a VLC diet.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 11, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Guys on every nfl football team are eating VLC? Seriously??

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:21 PM

(didn't help the adrenals either w/ levonorgestrel/progestin issues of birth control which caused an apparent high IR, dysbiosis and immunosuppressed state)

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:19 PM

BTW that's me -- VLC 20g carbs/day hurt my adrenals b/c they were already marginally functioning!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Jeremy Pivens and Daphne Zunigas come to mind!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:16 PM

'NO TESTING' = feedback deficits with lots of hubris and huffiness. What I see in the high carb explosion are a lot of VLC trials which failed miserably secondary to a combo of mineral depletion issues and and adrenal fatigue... Add to that neolethal factors that most paleo folks are completely ignorant or underestimate like environmental and dietary endocrine disruptors, estrogen dominance, massive cortisol/insulin cascades, heavy metals (esp among former vegetarians who eat/ate moderate 'healthy' fish). Mercury/tuna toxicity can lead to adrenal fatigue by various mechanisms.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:13 PM

n oe can do VLC and endurance, especially if your competing and want any hopes of winning. VLC+endurance will destroy your health.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:12 PM

He ate high carb during ironman. Being low carb when your sitting around doing nothing doesn't rove jack, do you guys get that? Te guy looks like kermit the frog and has no muscles http://media.us.macmillan.com/authors/258H/2214537.jpg

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:07 PM

John, Waiting for your advanced adrenal 'reset' *haaa!* What's the timeline for oral chelation in most adult cases? I've heard 6 months? I'm half way through. The metals have killed the gut... Would love to see your detailed thoughts on oral chelation (like your adaptogens 1.0 post)! I'm working on a few blogposts but I'm still on a learning curve. Thanks, G

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 10:21 AM

(1) STUART L. TRAGER, M.D. is a board certified orthopedic surgeon. He is an eight-time Ironman and a top ten finisher at the Ultraman World, author of All-New Atkins Advantage, 2004. (2) Dr. Doug McGuff MD -- ER physician and author of BSS and gymowner, AHS speaker. I read he intakes ~50 grams carbs/day. (3) Researcher Stephen Phinney. Requires bangin adrenals which I think most ordinary folks don't have anymore. Personally tried it, and can't do IF/VLC whilst endurance stuff because it requires really strong adrenal function.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:38 AM

they can't use it during game season, if your claiming they do i would love names.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:37 PM

I LOVE artichokes. I raerly eat them though. Any excuse to eat artichokes will work for me.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Plus one grace.......

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:10 PM

That have the same issues but are ignorant of them. Why do i say it? I have many paleo crossfitters/runners/professional athletes in his boat. I know it happens because i test. Six yrs ago i was in the dark and i decided to think about things differently

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:08 PM

Grace foods can fix the metal problem and the hypo methylation issues. I do this daily for patients because 90% have a bad gut. Why i love what JK is doing is that he is a shredded paleo who has a great facade and is rotting from within based uppn labs. We have lots of paleo luminaries currently espousing some real interesting theories with NO TESTING. Well mr kronk is a classic example of why research papers dont cure people. You have to think and apply knowledge. I bet jack case gets some others of their high horse and really study WHY this happens. I bet there are shredded AHS folks

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:02 PM

By the way milk thistle = sillymarin.....and artichokes are loaded with this....and quercetin too which is a brain gut nootropic. So eat artichokes dude. The stuff is in the leaf not the heart either

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 09:57 PM

On every nfl football team. I have 57 clients who use it off and on.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 10, 2011
at 06:43 PM

where are the athletes and cultures thriving on VLC?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 10, 2011
at 06:42 PM

[email protected] the most amount of carbs youve ever eaten on paleo is 150g?

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 10, 2011
at 09:16 AM

*haaa!!* Yes. I am humping a hypothesis... and so is EVERYONE. But I wear rose-colored glasses because I've observed so much health optimization and improvements in what we consider reliable markers (ripped abs, ROCKSTAR hair, kind attitudes and schwingtastic lab metrics). MY METRICS!! The ancestry and genetics are new for me (because of AHS!) but I believe technology will slowly bridge the gaps to our limited understanding. For now. ALL. HUMPING.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 09, 2011
at 06:14 PM

*"It IS theorycrafting. All of it is."* That's exactly correct. That's why I appreciate all the input. I don't take everything as perfectly true. I consider the theories, and mesh the ideas together with my labs combined with how I'm feeling and decide how I want to proceed. We are figuring things out. We are "hacking".

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 09, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Cliff -- stretch your hormonal thoughts out. Insulin resistance depends on several factors --industrial toxins (pesticides, metals, pthlates, n-6 pufa, etc), testosterone, adrenal fatigue, hypothyroidism etc. You are sorta correct -- later when Kronk corrects things he 'may' be able to tolerate more carbs but he'll have to test and figure that is tolerable. For now, the labs show that he is not. It's black and white. I posted articles and if you don't know how to interpret then find someone who does. It IS theorycrafting. All of it is. Show a better theory buddy.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 06:42 PM

I know that it may be to early to blame starch at this point, but it is also too early and undetermined to simply rule it out just because so many people do well on high carb. So many people also do well on high fat VLC. So many people do well on massive amount of coconut oil. or eggs, or dairy, or even whole grains!!! So I have to find what is messing with me personally, and right now, starch is still on the table.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 06:40 PM

cliff - I knoiw a lot of people do well on high carb Paleo using starchy tubers as their primary carb source (which we all know that you do). That's fantastic bud. But I must consider that possibly the high GI content of starch is (for me) tinkering around with my blood glucose and insulin in such a way that it may be resulting in high lipid numbers, particularly oxidizable variety like VLDL and sdLDL. Starchy carbs was one of the major changes I made I the results show a marked increase in the wrong direction.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 08, 2011
at 12:48 PM

way to much theorycrafting, sounds like a bunch of BS. Many northern european people do just fine on high carb, low carb is just a band aid fix.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 08:21 AM

I'm the 'good cop' *haa ah!* Please keep asking questions!! [You help me because I learn alot as well!!]

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 07:16 AM

grace - you are awesome. I am going to re-read this several times. Thanks. Thanks. And thanks again. ApoE4 and T and T3/T4 testing is on the very near horizon.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 08, 2011
at 05:21 AM

Zinc, D, A, K2 were all also part of that.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 08, 2011
at 05:20 AM

I really dont know specifics, but just that my labs improved, like yours, when I brought my T and thyroid up with iodine, selenium, and high carb low fat paleo.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Kronk, if you feel great NOW, when your gut is sealed, healed and working FOR YOU, not against you, then you will feel FANTA$*(#$&TIC!!!!!! Healing is an art, not a science. Traditionally trained docs don't understand. They are pill pushers and don't understand the integration of the mind/community/gut/brain axis... We are all one... the organs/body are all one.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 03:21 AM

Kruse, My prob is that I don't like taking a lot of stuff -- I want to take what works and that is it... game forward. At some point though the toxins cause a burden that can be overwhelming.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:25 AM

Jk. Be a skeptic....then re check in three months. This is going to show you how you really work.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Homocysteine is going to be up with his labs posted for sure.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:15 AM

I think low T is an issue.....but its causes need to be hashed before one treats. It could be cortisol or it could be low LH production or changes in SHBG.....regarding iodine issue....even in hashimotos i think iodine works provided you preload the gland with selenium. This is why so many with hashimotos do badly with ioodine. Not because iodine is bad....but because their selenium gas tank is empty.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 12:25 AM

Cool. Thanks NP.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 07, 2011
at 10:08 PM

Jack, for ApoE, I think the cheapest option is 23andme @$99 plus $9 x 12 = $207, unless your insurance is gonna cover it at your Cardy's urging through Labcorp, Quest, etc. As for Thyroid panel, I assume ur getting T/F T3/4 and Rev T3. That shouldn't be too bad at those mail order ones for under $100.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:54 PM

@Bill - out of curiosity... why do you say this will make it worse? What in particular are you referring to?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:51 PM

By the way... I was quoted at nearly $400 for ApoE, and after asking on multiple forums, I STILL #1 do not know if that's normal, and #2 do not know what my alternatives are. Google searching doesn't get me very far. Somebody else said they got theirs done for $100, so I suppose I will just assume that the extra $290 is the pad the lining of somebody's pockets and suck it up. I could buy a freezer full of grass fed beef for that.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:48 PM

I don't know Bill. And I don't know when I'm gonna get ApoE NP. Every time I go get tested for things that people tell me to, I come back and share the results and people tell me I need to text for all kinds of new things. My last test I made the docs redraw the paperwork 4 times because I kept insisting that they add new things. I checked "Full Thyroid Cascade Panel" and it came back with TSH only. I insisted to my doc that I need my T and ApoE checked, and they said it was not necessary, so I have to call back again and fight for it. This is the reality of our healthcare system folks.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:43 PM

If low T3 and Testosterone is the reason your numbers are the way they are.... this is only going to make them worse. They may change for the better with the fructose and fat reductions... but in the long run those numbers will not improve. WHy haven't you gotten your T or T3 tested yet?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:40 PM

When are you gettting your ApoE tested that will tell whether you're indeed E4? I think the finetuning should wait until you have your E4 status?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 07, 2011
at 08:59 PM

Jack, divide the guar gum into smaller doses and take with food. It gave my pre-broth soups days a similar thickening. One teaspoon at once is real Clockwork Orange torture. I made it through entire pound of the stuff, but 1/4 teas. at a time!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 05, 2011
at 01:12 AM

You are going to see your hack payoff now....keep testing

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 04, 2011
at 02:23 PM

"i would drop the whey". Begrudgingly... I have decided to drop the whey completely.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 02, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Thorne Research Vitamin K2 is MK4. 1 mg per drop. http://www.thorne.com/Products/Vitamins/prd~K170.jsp

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:35 PM

if metal testing came back screwed this points to a deficinecy in thiols.....so that means cysteine and that means we are back to the hypo methylation angle......see it all is tied together. JK we will solve this. Im a stoked your now willing to do what it will take.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:33 PM

Grace you can use ketosis to live well with great adrenals with this.....you must optimize Mg, CoQ10, Vitamin C in megadoses and not be a hypo methylator. Most people who say ketosis screws adrenals dont realize there is an underlying reason for it......those are the major ones. I think ketosis is a great way to live but few know how to be optimal in ketosis. Totally different optic.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:30 PM

Your gut is killing you but your lifestyle is masking this. This is one time when a paleo lifestyle could be problematic for a doc. I think there are a lot of people like you out there. I think our old Buddy Tom Seay has the same issue.....but he went away.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:28 PM

giving blood is a good thing too. I am glad to see your getting it now.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:27 PM

DEx is that stuff a mix of is it subfraction MK4? Because the price of that is awesome when you break it out on a drop by drop basis. I may switch to it if it is MK4.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:26 PM

The NAC will help the glutathione.....but not so much if you are hypo methylator. The repeat HC level after dropping whey will tell us this.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:25 PM

i would drop the whey......I would definitely add PQQ 20 mgs a day and I would make you take 1800 mgs of NAC a day too. I think if you get a new homocysteine level and its high I think the bottom of your hack is this.....your a hypo methylator. And I got a post coming up for you. If you read my supplement blog you can see I am a big B vitamin fan.......that methylator post will explain why. THe masterpiece post explains why PQQ is a monster add to a paleo lifestyle. I am not done with you yet. Good on the Guar gum. I feel your HDL rising!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 02, 2011
at 12:08 AM

I just ordered 2 bottles of the K2 MK4 and a 2 pack of guar gum from Source Naturals. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046S6UL0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GFSRUY&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0B2VQBHWVST6BMN0JCR8

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:51 PM

I use Thorne Research K2 drops for about $61 for (1 oz)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:50 PM

here is the bottle I am looking at buying. Looks like I would need 5 pills to get 25mgs: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Life-Menatetrenone-5000-Tablets/dp/B000VRWPPU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317512738&sr=8-1

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:28 PM

30000mcg is 30 grams http://www.convertunits.com/from/mcg/to/mg

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Quilt - there is a supplement at my local farmers market that each tablet has 5,000 mcg of MK4. You recommend 20-30 mgs, so wouldn't that be 2,000-3,000 mcg. I could take half tablet daily for 2,500 mcg. Does this sound correct?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 01, 2011
at 05:25 PM

Jack, I have leaky gut and I'm definitely allergic to dairy. I didn't think so but I became convinced after avoidance / provocation. I would listen to Dr K on this. You're on your way to becoming autoimmune at the rate you're going. I would cut out dairy now.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:57 PM

Also, I will get some MK4 supp and begin taking it. Do you recommend a particular brand/type? Also, I am gonna go give away some blood to reduce iron.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:55 PM

I just read through it. "mind bending biochemistry"... yes that is accurate. The good news is that I STRICTLY do low volume HIIT exercise, and lately I've been doing it fasted per Travis Culp's recommendation. Also, I do get my fair share of protein. I'm seriously considering dropping the whey protein, but something that concerns me is that it may be a great source of glutathione for me, and the stuff I take is cold processed and non-denatured. It's 26g per serving and very pure, but I will drop it if it may be causing leaky gut. what do you think? is that part of your 'drop dairy' suggestion?

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:05 PM

The casein in A1 dairy is immunogenic like gluten in wheat (which is U.S dairy -- Europe has A2 which is less immunogenic. Human, goat and sheep dairy is A2). Butter has casein but ghee has the protein including casein all cheesecloth filtered out. If you did the Whole9 or Robb Wolf/Mat LaLonde's autoimmune protocol for a month, dairy would be 100% eliminated. I agree with you, Trigs of 85 last Oct are awesome, but I dunno why HDLs are not a little better considering your conditioning, musculature and dramatic fat recomposition. Your family history gives pause.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:53 PM

I'm relieved you are not blowing off metals... Personally I've had/having my own issues so after deep digging into the issues, I've realized it is a major issue for many (and perhaps more so for certain genetics, like apoE4 and possibly your father and sister). My kids have metals -- downloaded maternally from me and from their own dental mercury amalgams and the seafood we used to frequently consume. Metals may not be a prob for some but w/ genetics, maternal downloads and any degree of gut dysbiosis (our healthy microbes help eliminate metals) I don't think many can evade signif exposures.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:49 PM

Yes I totally concur with Quilt that a gut issues is likely at the center stage but it is easy to be ignorant because unless you have IBS you probably are asymptomatic like most individuals. COME ON! You look and feel absolutely shredded, ripped and GGGGGorgeous. So of course you are not thinking the gut?? Genova and Metametrix offer DNA stool analyses. I can order from Metametrix so let me know. Not familiar w/Genova's products but I think Quilty is. The cost is about $350 and I think it yields far more valuable data -- digestion capacity, degree of dysbiosis, putrefication, parasites, etc.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:43 PM

THose who tend to do great on VLC/ketosis are those with bangin adrenals. They can fast and not get huge cortisol spikes... (these folks are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN). BTW if you stay with potatoes, try to do the low GI ones (red, Okinawan, etc) and organic. The GMO have lectins that appear to survive heat/cooking and lectins tear up the gut.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:41 PM

THose phlebotovampires sure do drain people don't they??! Yes I know there are certain deals (like your $22 VAP test!!) out there. LEF will have certain months with a great discount, esp for hormone testing. Sorry!! I meant (a) through (e) not #1-6 (PH editing messes me up). Regarding starches, these can be your friend or foe... it depends on the context of your health status and goals. Personally I think the adrenals are the CRUX and apex from which all our health depends on, so its (a). Ketosis kills the adrenals! Therefore if you still have lingering or marginal adrenals, stay on carbs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:12 AM

I recently read that dairy proteins can contribute to leaky gut. Is that why? Then maybe it's the whey protein isolates I take. Because butter and ghee don't have the proteins.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:09 AM

what is the real reason for a full dairy cut Quilt? Why is dairy causing these problems? Is it the proteins? The palmitic acid? The insulinogenic effects? Is it because you believe dairy is an unhealthy food in general? Why do I ask all these things? Because I am a stubborn ass and just want to fool around here? Ooooor could it be that it confuses me because on plenty of butter and cream and whey protein I lost weight, got ripped, and had 85 trigs last Oct. I'll admit that my HDL was low even then though. So is that why? Because it blocks HDL increase? Why quit dairy?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:31 AM

I let people keep doing what they like until their labs make them bang their heads pto the ground. Like i said long ago......this hack will help thousands. You have a classic leaky gut. Your liver is screaming for help.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:29 AM

It to you. You'd be easynto fix if you were not so headstrong. You need to do a serious three month change and retest. And yes.....guar gum would be in my plans for you too.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:27 AM

Why? You have a classis leaky gut with a shitty hdl and you eat too many things that are hurting your gut. You need a fully dairy cut and i would put you on 20-30 mgs of k2 mk-4 version (and imwould test your osteocalcin to prove to you i am right). I would also introduce you to coconut oil and lots of it. And i would eliminate manynof the carbs your eating and make you eat a ton of grass fed meat from a crock pot. I maximize your D, your T, your DHEA and progesterone because they all suck.....even without labs. I know they are bad looking at what you got done somfar. But id test to prov

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Mk-4 is the sub he needs. For heart.....

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Grace maybe you will get to him because he is not getting me at all. I told him this already. His labs are speaking truth to him and he cant fathom his own gut is doing all this.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:17 AM

And you already know what i think about iron right? You read my extensive iron/ferritin answer.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 06:06 PM

Also, you wrote *"low level sepsis via leaky gut/SIBO/intestinal permeability"*. Do you think this could be at play here for me? I've been looking into "leaky gut" and honestly I am not really grasping exactly what that's all about. Dr K has been trumpeting that as a cause.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Melissa M suggested iron overload a while back too. My blood saturation was slightly elevated, and my clearance did come in below the lowest normal range, so there could definitely be something going on there. Also, that could be what is causing the odd feeling in my chest and heart area. Metal toxicity is a plausible idea, especially since I am so fit because weight issues are completely rulled out. I am checking out the latest post from vitalobjectives.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 05:56 PM

btw.. what are you referring to with #1-6? Maybe I missed something? And regarding the high GI potatoes, could I be eating too much starch? I have (for some reason) cut back on the tubers lately. Not really sure why. Just kinda of a knee jerk reaction borne from confusion.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Grace! I didn't realize that was you! lol. Ok so I will donate blod, but that lady took 3 full viles when I did my last test because they were testing so many different things. Wouldn't that be just like giving blood sorta? Also, I didn't want to give the impression that I am cheap. I would spend 100x that amount if I knew it was going to help me. I'm all about investing in my health. I just don't want to *WASTE* money. Plus I've read that people get that ApoE testing done for like $100, so I just wasn't excited about overpaying.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 24, 2011
at 12:01 PM

Jack......you have a prfoundly leaky gut and this in my opinion is the caue of your labs. Fix it and your labs will improve. You need a biohack of your gut soon. Go see a doc who can get the correct testing done to fix these issues. It should be clear to you by now that eating paleo is not enough for you. You are not what you eat......you are only what you absorb.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 24, 2011
at 11:58 AM

I wrote blog dedicated to jack and i commented here extensively and said why......if you dont get what i said in all i cant help you. Maybe you need some windex for your glass eyes?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 11:52 PM

Please try again.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:52 PM

maybe you do get k2 but the supplement is so cheap so no harm in supping. I've always suspected stuff like KG might not be that high in k2 and apparently the quilt tested it recently at it had Non-Detectable levels. Getting adequate potassium and magnesium will also help imo, right now your getting pretty suboptimal amounts of both. I also don't see any liver in your menu which pretty much guarantees your not getting enough vit A imo. Like travis suggest you should also probably supp zinc, iodine and selenium.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:54 PM

Yah ya know milk thistle really does help the liver.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:17 PM

Aww, looks like I have to up my game. Next time I will get ya! Nyaa. Anyway, you might try a short episode of milk thistle supplementation. It will regenerate glutathione in your liver and bolster its defenses, and than after a few weeks you can stop taking it and enjoy the improvement. Just something to think about. That's one herb that is extensively studied.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:07 PM

And I dunno bout this K2 thing (from Cliff and Quilt). I am struggling with it. I don't understand why you are pegging me of all people to be K2 deficient. I agree that we don't know the exact levels in the foods, but can we also agree that I am at least eating all the foods that are believed to have the highest levels, whatever they might be? Is there some underlying reason why you suspect a K2 deficiency? What benefit do you think I would see from supping? I ask not antagonistcally, but out of geniune confusion.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:06 PM

CoonMurderer - sorry bud I saw that comment was from you but I didn't acknowledge you directly. Bad on me. I think my liver is definitely not happy with what I'm doing, and I'm probably overworking the poor sucker. I did have slightly low iron binding and slightly highish iron saturation in my blood (but nothing too alarming).

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:58 PM

Mwahaha, I snuck in all raccoon-sneaky-like and impersonated Namby Pamby except with my own advice. It was brilliant, and you fell for it, Jack. Mwahahaha. *stab stab* Good fun, yes?

7b91be6e22d4e2960f40935e306bdee5

(245)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Cliff - not true. I was 33, 5'9 155lbs exercised frequently and felt GREAT. Spent my 34th birthday in the hospital recovering from a Heart Attack. Here's a link to my story at MDA. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread34325.html And good luck Jack. I hope you get this figured out.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:25 PM

i didn't say that, i just stated that the items you eat might not be as reliable of a source as you think. If I were you I would make sure I was getting more than adequate intake of all nutrients. This basically means supping k2, mag, selenium, iodine and A if you don't eat liver. Lowering your carbs is just gonna give you less nutrition, maybe it makes your trigs go lower but its not curing the actual problem and is just a bandaid.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:52 PM

then 99%+ of humans in this world must be K2 deficient, because I bet less than 1% of people supplement with K2.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:40 PM

"then WHO here on Paleohacks is getting enough K2?" Only the people who supplement. None of those are reliable sources unless you have them tested to confirm they have K2 in sufficient quantities.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:09 PM

"WHO" is capitalized for emphasis only, not because I'm yelling at you Cliff :)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:07 PM

*"If you don't supplement k2 theirs probably a good chance your not getting very much"*... ok so if I am not getting enough K2 by eating GF butter, GF cheese, GF milk, GF beef, GF Ghee... then WHO here on Paleohacks is getting enough K2? Is everyone supplementing? I don't understand. I thought most of us got K2 from some combination of the above items. I know we are not eating Natto!!!!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:00 PM

I did a rough estimate of your above diet and you come up short in mag and potassium. If you don't supplement k2 theirs probably a good chance your not getting very much.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:49 PM

Do you take supplements? track your nutrition in cronometer?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on September 20, 2011
at 02:51 PM

Quilt, your contributions here would be a great deal more useful if instead of spending so much time writing multiple cryptic, fractured comments hinting at secret knowledge that only you possess you actually spent that time writing a proper answer. Say what you think is wrong and what the cause is. Then what should be done to fix it and why. Also any useful links that support your points would also appreciated.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:54 PM

JK you dont have to have symptoms of a leaky to to have one......you fit that bill perfect. Take a look at my leaky gut Rx blog......its all there.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:53 PM

yes i think you do......go buy the LEF.org super or ultra K2. Start two a day. Get some Guar Gum on top of whats in CM. You need a whopping dose. Do this for three months and retest. You also need to get your T optimized. Same thing with you thyroid to get back to the promise land.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 AM

But I mentioned in another comment that it may be wise for me to go LC for a time. However, I need to go check out this new post from Travis and see what he's cookin up.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 AM

On days I have rice, I usually don't have much potato. The other items mixed in there filled in days for me. So sure I had those Chebe mixes, and a beer, but numbers don't lie, and if you add up what I was eating day in and day out, it falls in range. My diet is not perfect, but these choices of honey and a single square of dark chocolate and gluten free bread mix are intentional so as not to eat the bad stuff. My carb choices are at least much less toxic than so many alternatives.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:56 AM

Hi edrice. Yah I could see how that would seem so. My 30%C would need to hold its fair share of my diet to be true, and so it does. I was LC (50g per day or less) for several months and then raised it on purpose to about 150g per day.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:55 AM

Jack, this is what I have so far: http://paleohacks.com/questions/66154/medium-chain-fatty-acids-appear-to-raise-vldl-triglycerides#axzz1YPtpdqhI

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:27 AM

Jack, after looking over your menu and seeing daily potatoes, white rice every other day, mixed with pizzas, tapioca, pizza mix, cinnamon roll mix breads, honey, chocolate, beer, burrito bowls and tacos and I'm really wondering why there is any mystery at all. As one who had screaming triglycerides for over 30 years and dropped them down to 67 in several months, I can tell you that you're eating now like I used to when I had all the problems. In the same 70 day period, I've had a half a serving of white rice and a scoop of Hagen Daz. That's it, except for half a grapfruit maybe twice a week.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:40 AM

Ok Doc so I need to get K2 (I suppose a supplement form?). I find it quite strange that I would need more K2. I likely get waaaay more K2 than the vast majority of people because of all the pastured/GF foods I eat. Also guar gum... shall I drink coconut milk with GG in it? What are the dangers of purposefully ingesting guar gum? Anything that has 'profound effects' usually has some profound side effects as well. And yes of course if my HDL were double what it is, I wouldn't be as worried. What are the symptoms of leaky gut other than these lab numbers?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:54 AM

Getting your HDL up is the key fo ryour condition long term. You got a leaky gut.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:53 AM

Guar gum is a unique soluble fiber, a type of non-digestible complex carbohydrate that holds water as it forms a gel in your digestive tract. This may have some rather profound effects on your metabolism, including the reduction of total cholesterol, lowering triglycerides, increasing HDL Cholesterol, stabilizing blood sugar response to a meal, reducing digestive inflammation, curbing appetite, and assisting efforts at weight loss.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:52 AM

Get your D up with K2.....not with more D!!! This works in the gut. Specifically the GB under CCK influence.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 11:32 PM

Namby Pamby - good stuff. We do make most of our crockpot concoctions with bone broth soup, although haven't been eating as much of that lately. I'll check out the pork rinds, but I can't imagine that I'd want to eat those every day. Regarding glucose levels, yes I know. It's the one glaring major change I made since my trigs were 85 and I am strongly considering going to LC Paleo (50g per day or less) to clear the trigs. If my liver is unhappy, wouldn't it be because of carbs? Maybe going VLC for 4 months made me unable to adapt to carb re-introduction?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:53 PM

Also, I would incorporate green tea (or chai tea or black tea for that matter). Tea is great for keeping your appetite under control. I start early afternoon and by the time I go to sleep, I've downed about a 1/2 gallon.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:45 PM

Mmm, pork skins. Umm, where was I? Oh yeah, you might have liver damage, or just "problems" with the liver, I know that sounds vague. When triglycerides go that high oftentimes you can blame the liver. Your glucose is higher than it should be, and your iron-binding capacity is low, which means low transferrin, which is synthesized in the liver. So that is where I would look. That's just my guess, I know Quilty says that you are probably just adapting, but I suspect the liver.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:36 PM

Also, if you wanna snack, get pork rinds. They're great and they will also kill your appetite. Get these kinds, which are basically fried pork skins with only salt added. http://www.fritolay.com/our-snacks/baken-ets-traditional.html

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:32 PM

It will kill your appetite or any desire to snack in between meals. My advice is to increase the fat until you get the hang of controlling your appetite. You can do moderate (100-150g carbs) Paleo w/bone broth which will give you the discipline. The carbs you're taking in (yams, sweet potatoes, rice) definitely whet your appetite and you'll want to cheat more. I know, becuz I went crazy w/Atkins bars and only learned to control my snacking after throwing the whole box out.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:32 PM

I am taking a wild guess here, but I think that you might have a mineral absorption problem. Your iron is low, but it shouldn't be low. Your serum magnesium is normal, but serum magnesium isn't actually a great marker for total body magnesium. Moving forward I would focus on gut health. Bone broths/gelatin/amino acid sups and probiotic foods/supplements, spices, good types of fiber unless they make you feel bad. I might try supplementing magnesium and a bit of copper just to see if it works, but my main concern is the gut.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:28 PM

I'm not saying u should go Low-carb Paleo, since after all I'm doing moderate-carb Paleo. But when I started adding carbs, it was after I lost all my flab, when my appetite was strictly under control, and when I was suffering from low-carb symptoms (constipation, lack of moisture, fungal toes). You do seem to need a little bit of that: in other words, more fat that will control your appetite. You need BONE BROTH. It will control your appetite in a jiffy, I swear. Learn how to brew bone broth from marrow bones on weekends. I cook a pot-full on Sunday and it lasts mea whole week.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:25 PM

Here's what I'm noticing. I can't remember if you said you started out VLCing and how you fared in that regimen. But you seem to do considerable snacking. Whether you're snacking w/Paleo or nonPaleo items seems immaterial. The issue seems your appetite isn't under control. All the more since you seem to be, if any thing, moderate to high carb Paleo. Low-carb Paleo WILL control your appetite and eliminate your snacking habit. You may have gone Paleo, never quite learned to control your appetite, and substituted some fares w/high carb Paleo (sweet potatoes, rice), so ur always hungry.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 19, 2011
at 09:58 PM

do you take any supplements? if your frequently hungry why not just eat bigger meals?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Guar Gum huh? uh... care to explain? I don't understand that one. I avoid GG on purpose. I thought we were supposed to avoid it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 06:44 PM

Dr K - I know you think I should get my D up, and I respect your input, but thinking through things logically, I was at 31-D with HDL of 42. Raised my D to 44 and HDL was at 40. Raised my D to 58 and HDL went to 35. If you really believe that raising my D to 80 would raise my HDL, I'm not sure where you are getting your confidence from on that. If I am going to focus on certain things to improve my situation, I think I should not continue to focus on doing the very things that either got me the results I am currently looking at or at the very least didn't imrove them at all.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 06:37 PM

Travis - During the 70 days between tests, I continued with 1 scoop of 26g pure whey protein (bluebonnet) 5x per week. I was taking VitC 500mg about 3-4 times per week. I also 'supplemented' 2-3 teaspoons of red palm oil about 3-4 times per week. That's about it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 19, 2011
at 03:50 AM

I laugh when I read some of the adivce here on the diet thing. Sometimes paleo dieting cant fix it all. Better living thru paleo plus biochemistry I say. Its not what eat folks......its what you absorb and dont absorb and what is bioactive and what is not. This is where so many research papers lose it. They never control for this clinical entity. If your gut is shot (yours is) you become flustered because nothing makes sense. I told ya what I expected before your VAP was up. I was right. Was I lucky or did I know something based upon the testing? You decide.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 19, 2011
at 03:46 AM

I'd put you on Guar Gum too.......before the retest. This is my biohack of Jack. I would want your D 80-100. Your T needs to be around 750-1000. Check your DHEA-s and salivary cortisol levels. The answer wont be hard to find. Your case is an ideal teaching case for the paleo community.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 19, 2011
at 03:43 AM

To check your vitamin K levels, request an osteocalcin test Jack. It will measure precisely how much uncarboxylated osteocalcin is present in the blood. Im still not terribly concerned with your stuff because your HS CRP is low. But you need to get your androgen levels up, maximize your T3 and increase your K2. All increase endotoxin clearance from gut to protect yoru heart. I get your D up and make sure your vitamin A is solid too. Then you need to focus in on youre real problem. Dairy. Cut it including butter and add CO to your diet. 3-5 tablespoons qd. Then retest.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:37 PM

What sort of supplements (including bodybuilding-oriented ones) did you use in the intervening period? It's strange about the activity since that alone is typically enough to raise HDL and lower TGs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Super Active. Super Duper Active. Totally weight stable. 2-3 pounds fluctuation around 155. Been about 152-158 now for many months.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Also, was your weight stable during this period? High fat and moderate/high carb tend to cause fat gain unless you're super active.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 05:53 PM

Yeah, that should be fine. Most of what you're doing is the same as most other paleos, but nearly all of them have low trigs, or at least progressively lower trigs. There must be something you eat or do that would stand out. We could shrug and say "genetics" but I never subscribe to that kind of bullsh!t defeatism.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 04:21 PM

I take 500mg since I assume I'm getting plenty from my veggies and starch.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 04:19 PM

Jack, maybe you want a full hepatis panel just in case. Are your other liver numbers okay (billirubin, e.g.)? They should be part of the whole suite.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:27 AM

Both the AST and ALT are mildly suboptimal within 'normal range' however AST is a more long-term indicator of liver damage and the fact that both are high leads me to suspect that whatever the reason for damage is longer than just the recent high carb intake; didn't you state w/the earlier lab you were VLC?

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:25 AM

What was the ferritin before? Slight link with iron overload, subsequent oxidation and NASH. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513189 Anything that leads to hyperinsulinemia is connected to NASH -- low thyroid (low adrenals), high carbs, low vitamin C/E/antixoxidants, low omega-3, oxidation (e.g. iron overload). NASH is a big problem -- it is one of the rising epidemic reasons for liver transplants and victims are getting younger and younger. BUT TOTALLY REVERSIBLE when caught early... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11266382 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17032189

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:21 AM

Jack -- it's not just fructose but fructose is just worse since far less insulin is released to correspond with the BG spike. I think the evolutionary basis is that fruit and carbs (honey, tubers) were more seasonal and the ability lay down fat via BG/insulin prior to cold climate determined the regulation of fertility, reproduction and essentially survival. However I see fatty liver in fat-skinny Asians who had ancestors at the equator and as soon as they lower carbs (I don't dictate -- I just 'lower' but if poss no fruit, potatoes, grains knowing 1-2x cheats/wk is ok), the ALT is PERFECT.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:31 AM

You know, you *did* drop your LDL by 24% with less butter and cream, whatever that's worth.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:27 AM

grace - *"Many neolethal factors affect it and congest it up including high banana and potatoe (high GI) intakes"* This applies to potatoes due to high GI? So even glucose starches?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:24 AM

Quilt - I don't think that Doctor has balls. I'm pretty sure she has a taco. Her name is Jennifer.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:18 AM

Okay I will put something together. I did not track anything, so really all I can do is give you my general routine based on memory, which, of course, will not capture everything. As for the choline, I seriously doubt it. I eat at least a dozen eggs per week and sometimes closer to 2 dozen.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:42 AM

Namby: How much vitamin C do you take?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:29 AM

Also, is it remotely possible that you are deficient in choline?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:28 AM

Oh, I didn't notice that. Well, I haven't given up on you...the research continues. Do you have a typical daily routine posted somewhere? Maybe you could post it as a response to this thread. What you typically ate/did from July to this reading. I need more info in order to develop more hypotheses.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:15 AM

Travis - that was my comment on Noah's answer below. I have about one beer every 1 to 2 weeks. Probably about 2-4 beers per month. That's about it.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:02 AM

Jack: How many alcoholic drinks do you have per week? Alcohol causes a significant rise in TGs in those whose TGs are already elevated and the combination of alcohol and a high fat meal spikes TGs even more. Something to keep in mind.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 02:09 AM

I would also be curious about Jack's uric acid numbers. They tend to be high if he's been loading up on fructose. I am a gout sufferer and even though I have excellent liver enzymes, low inflammation (CRP, Westgren), high HDL and moderate trigs (92), I still have high-normal uric acid. Never out of the range but always high normal: >6.5

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 01:45 AM

For correction of adrenals, it is excellent to consume a higher carbohydrate diet -- but I wouldn't personally do it with high fruit. Wild, organic berries are fine (low GI + antioxidants). For adrenals to improve function it is in fact IMPERATIVE to get enough carbs to increase insulin to point of eclipsing serum cortisol (and to lower cortisol if excessively high via yoga, vacations, Relora, low intensity exercise, avoiding HIIT, etc). The problem with fruit is it raises BG without raising insulin -- won't work if trying for adrenals. Read: Diana Scharzbien principle II

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 17, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Namby Pamby -- you are a ROCKSTAR!!! And pretty good at making astute observations. The liver should not be underestimated! Many neolethal factors affect it and congest it up including high banana and potatoe (high GI) intakes... People think they are following MD orders by eating 5 fruits a day... wrong. They are increasing oxLDL and f*ckin up the detox and metabolic pathways in the liver. G

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 07:48 PM

FRM - *"Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?"* Are you suggesting that I do that? I did post a comment there.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:22 PM

Yup, I agree with the 2-4 week time since I used to have fatty liver and it was gone immediately when I started low-carbing.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:21 PM

Grace, you're right on it and that's what I noticed about his liver enzymes. Those are not the enzymes of someone who's paleoing and exercising. My rec is to get his ANA tested and see if he has some inflammation-inducing autoimmune disease somewhere.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:17 PM

I have an occasional microbrew if I go out to a sit down restaurant. Maybe once a week. Sometimes once every 2 weeks. No alcohol in the house. Interesting about Homocysteine. I've never considered that.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:11 PM

no. actually, I don't KNOW what must be done. It's not like my breakfast this morning was cupcakes and root beer and sour patch kids. I'm not lackadaisical toward my health. If I'm misunderstanding you then fine, let's hear it. But I've got people telling me all sorts of things to do and I have to wade through this with discernment while considering a lot of aspects. I can't do them all at once and I still don't even know which direction to take yet. That's the entire purpose of this question. It is first and foremost to help me. What others can glean from it comes in at 2nd place.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:09 PM

no. actually, I don't KNOW what must be done. It's not like my breakfast this morning was cupcakes and root beer and sour patch kids. I'm not lackadaisical toward my health. If I'm misunderstanding you then fine please clarify what you mean. I've got people telling me all sorts of things to do and I have to wade through this with discernment while considering a lot of aspects. I can't do them all at once and I still don't even know which direction to take yet. That's the entire purpose of this question. It is first and foremost to help me. In 2nd place comes what others can glean from it.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on September 17, 2011
at 05:13 PM

I know this is waaay out there, but you don't take Ambien do you? I've known several people who have sleep driven and sleep eaten on it. The best Ambien story from my immediate circle was someone getting in a wrestling match with their Xmas tree with many amused roommates as witnesses. Just want to make sure you aren't out and about downing Big Gulps in your sleep.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:42 AM

JK.......if my doc told me that......i kick him in the balls and punch him out before i fired him........just saying.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:40 AM

its a humdinger if you dont buy the labs. If you do you know what must be done

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on September 17, 2011
at 12:04 AM

I agree with Bill.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 16, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I was just thinking about this podcast too, Chris M selflessly is following and answering all the show comments thread on Chris K's website. Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 16, 2011
at 10:44 PM

That would frustrate the hell out of me too (getting the vap panel results back). I sympathize with you. Is there some other factor we are missing? stress, cortisol? sleep? something else? or perhaps 70 days isn't enough for you body to stabilize and find and equilibrium? Would those numbers come down if you continued with status quo? I think this would make one hell of a question for Robb wolf to go on his podcast, this is a humdinger of question and would love to hear him tackle it especially if it were a interview episode with a lipid sage.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 16, 2011
at 10:24 PM

I was just thinking about this podcast too, Chris M selflessly is following and answering all the show comments thread on Chris M website. Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:56 PM

Yeah, scallops are delish. I realize my answer probably adds to your frustration right now - "try low-carb, or try high carb, get this test done, take this supplement or this supplement". Melissa's answer should be added on to every answer in here. It's definitely going to take some work and detail, but I once you figure out whatever is causing the problem (if there really is a problem), I hope it's smooth sailing for you, Jack.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:48 PM

Melissa - yah you're not kiddin. I got people insisting I go high starch low fat. I got people insisting I go VLC. Some say drop dairy. Some say more K2. I wish I could get some kind of home blood test lab kit to test the basic lipids so I can really get an understanding of what's going on. It seems very strange that most people can just eat whole real foods and not worry about it while I have to micro-analyze everything I'm doing even tho I'm in the best shape of my life. I will look into cron o meter. My iron was slightly elevated, w/ semi-low clearance. But no, I havent done a stool sample.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:38 PM

@Namby I just put 3 drops in like 2-4oz of water first thing in the morning and drink straight up. @Cliff thanks brother. @Quilt... but what if his T is low? We are seeing many guys who go VLC for a long time have this kind of phenomenon happen and the ones who have pullled themselves out of it went to a higher carb, lower fat Paleo diet. I think getting his T tested and a full thyroid panel will clear this up.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Very good advice bill

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:54 PM

Btw.. the box I checked was "Thyroid Cascade Panel" and all they gave me was the TSH. This is precisely what CMast and Kresser had a laugh about in the latest podcast. Like.. what kind of "panel" is that?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:53 PM

Phoenix - Thanks for much for your input here. I agree with the metabolic syndrome comment. It's hard to look in the mirror and convince myself of that. Regarding thyroid, I think you could definitely be correct. The more research I do on thyroid, the more I believe it may be playing a very significant role here. One good thing is that I had scallops the other day and I had forgotten how much I loved them. I will be eating more scallops!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:35 PM

yah I am done snacking. No more mid-meal nibbling for me.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:23 PM

You need a new doctor, man. That's like your mechanic saying "I refuse to check your valve clearances." They work for you and your money, directly or indirectly, pays them. Western medicine is really in trouble.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 05:28 PM

I asked my doc to please approve a testosterone and cortisol testing. Response: *"I do not recommend checking your testosterone or cortisol levels because for you, these would not have any clinical significance."*

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:08 PM

Jack, I expect your trigs to be between 100-125. Your trigs would be higher than when most people do VLC (~50-70). But no way it will be 225: that's for someone with a serious snacking issue w/sugar and white flour. So your Trigs basically dictated your particle size: with Trigs that high, no way you will be type A.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Yep......time for him to seriously adapt. His experiment is going to help lots of folks. I hope he continues it. It's a great learning tool

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:23 PM

I would do exactly the opposite

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:23 PM

As I mentioned above T is a huge factor here. So is T3 and vitamin A. Nothing on his VAP surprised me.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:07 PM

NP - I seriously upped my starch intake. Been eating lots of sweet potatoes and potatoes. I also eat rice regularly. We all say that starch doesn't affect trigs in the same way fructose and sugar do. Maybe in my case it does.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:57 PM

Correct, but I think the trigs are considered more reliable than the LDL numbers. Also HDL is the most reliable marker and Jack's is alarmingly low given his exercise routines and wholefoods diet.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:56 PM

Well, here seems to be the prolem. Jack's LDL is moderately high but I"m not really concerned about it. I'm more concerned about his 224 Trigs, which is usually a marker for avidly consuming processed carbohydrates. How could his Trigs be that high when he says he's on a whole foods star diet and cut back on his sugar (no more honey, bananas, and dried fruit). I'm not sure if Trigs are subject to Apo-EE status. My Trigs are 92, high for a Paleo guy but I'm doing 150g Paleo with all of my carbs coming from healthy starch (yams).

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:51 PM

Just curious, how do you use Iosol? Do you put it into soup or drinks? Seems like 2 drops will do it at 3.6 mg. I've never used Iodine droplets, my sole experience being Kelp and Prolamine Iodine tablets, which come with calcium and I'm trying to avoid calcium at any cost.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:16 PM

No one feels great and has a heart attack, plenty of people pretend like they feel great but I guarantee they have some low level problem they ignore. At least that's my opinion.

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on September 16, 2011
at 10:03 AM

A not-linked-from-paleohacks blog then? My googlefoo is failing me, can you point me to it?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:09 AM

Jack: This *might* explain the situation: http://paleohacks.com/questions/65180/could-serum-triglycerides-get-caught-in-a-positive-feedback-loop#axzz1Y5gTJX4r

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:34 AM

Well if you after this period you continue to do fasted, low-intensity exercise every day, your TGs will never rise again. The reason they dropped before with VLC was that insulin was always so low that your muscle mitochondria torched all of the fat in your blood. You *can* have it both ways by eating starch mostly late at night when you are least active and exercising fasted. Throughout the day eat meat and fat.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Jon, Travis has a blog.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:00 AM

Jon, Travis has had a blog for a long time.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:29 AM

@ Jack just read your response that you point to in comments to travis...I tend to agree with that. Perhaps the "normals" just don't apply, but I can surely understand your concern. @ Travis...of course the first sign/symptom of heart trouble can be a heart attack for many people. My mother being one of them. BUT, my mother also eats SAD, smokes, and doesn't exercise. Just saying, I would put more weight on a lifestyle questionnaire than lab results for an asymptomatic individual with otherwise terrific health markers, assuming the labs are not completely absurd.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Jack, what about going for a classic 40/40/20 share of protein carbohydrate and fat. I mean classic as far as lifter people. I'm not afraid of fat, eat the good stuff: coconut and palm like you are. Just saying maybe you don't need that much of it. Just an idea.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:59 AM

Good points from both Jay and Travis here. I agree with the general idea of what Jay is saying. In fact, I say something similar in my "What if I stopped lifting for 3 months" comment in Travis' answer. But bottom line, I am not comfortable at all with 35 HDL vs 224 fasting trigs. That just ain't right.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:54 AM

By the way.. something to consider... after 2 months of VLC and high fat zero starch, with plenty of butter, some raw milk, coconut oil, plenty of whey protein, 3x wk heavy lifting, I tested for 85 fasting trigs back in Oct 2010. So it may be the combination of starch and fat that's getting me, or it may be the pre-workout shake. During my VLC in 2010, I always drank it post workout.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Suppose you are completely right, and what you are saying works perfectly for me... what about long term? If I return to my ways after the two weeks, won't the same issue rear its head again? What would be the benefit of clearing my trigs if they will just return anyway?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Plenty of people feel great and are completely asymptomatic right up until they have a heart attack. This wouldn't happen to Jack anytime soon, but low HDL and high TGs should at some point be addressed.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:14 AM

I think moderate resistance training is necessary for good health as it leads to stronger bones and fends off sarcopenia. That said, strictly for these two weeks in an attempt to clear the triglycerides from your blood, weight training will be counter-productive.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 11:33 PM

What if I stopped lifting for 3 months, retested, and all levels improved. Wouldn't that be strange? Instead of making me believe weight lifting is a problem, it would actually make me wonder if the rules might change for some folks who are eating Paleo and doing heavy strength training. Almost like.. what if I am totally fine? And the reason for my numbers being this way is maybe because of my lifestyle choices all around. The 'ranges' that are determined to be safe are for people who, for the most part, are nothing like me. Makes me wonder if I am worried about something I shouldn't be.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 09:54 PM

Weight training itself burns very little fat, depletes glycogen and therefore increases the glycogenic burden and increases appetite. If you undertake this test, you should stop doing it for 2 weeks as well.

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on September 15, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Travis, start a blog already! Your answers are consistently good (or at least interesting). You seem to get most of your ideas from peer-reviewed science literature. I think a blog would be awesome!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 09:04 PM

I do that about 50% of the time, so about 2-3 times per week. I wonder if that is a big contributing factor here. I am always most suspicious of things that are chronic and regular, rather than 'once in a while' choices.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:33 PM

Not right before exercise, no.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 07:48 PM

13. it's right underneath glucose serum.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 07:43 PM

*"Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis."* Are you suggesting that I not take a protein drink by itself? That would be the only time I get an 'all protein meal'.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 15, 2011
at 07:34 PM

I'd be curious to know your blood urea nitrogen (BUN). I think that would tell us a lot about what route to take.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:09 PM

I eat all sweet potato, which I chop into pieces about 3/4 of a cm thick and then microwave (a whole plate full takes about 8 minutes - srs). Tastes good to me, but it's important that you experiment with sweet potato varieties until you find the right type. Orange-fleshed ones are no good for this in my experience. You could also boil potatoes and eat them with salt and spices. This isn't something you have to do for the rest of your life, just for two weeks to clear the TGs, after which just use a bit of coconut oil if you need to. Fasted walking should continue forever though.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:06 PM

Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis. Additionally, an all fat meal, though it doesn't cause a spike in insulin, will cause a spike in fat in the blood, which will then be cleared by the active muscles' mitochondria. Eating anything will undermine the effect of this protocol, so make sure you are 100% fasted. 50% of the time that I am walking my stomach starts growling; just ignore it like your ancestors did.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis. Additionally, an all fat meal, though it doesn't cause a spike in insulin, will cause a spike in fat in the blood, which will be then be cleared by the active muscles' mitochondria. Eating anything will undermine the effect of this protocol, so make sure you are 100% fasted. 50% of the time that I am walking my stomach starts growling; just ignore it like your ancestors did.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:03 PM

What about wroking out. Sometimes I eat before working out. Sometimes after. Sometimes I drink a pre-workout drink. Sometimes after. What if the whey protein is having an insuligenic effect pre-workout and then I am pounding weights intensely, causing problems doing so. By the way.. you eat potato and sweet potato completely plain? How, friend? That's like eating cardboard or something. I'm not making excuses. I'm just thinking that I dont want to go through life eating plain, dry, boring starch. Bleckk.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Regarding your comment above, you should modulate starch intake without it having any direct effect on fat intake. I eat 150-200g of starch from sweet potato per day completely plain. It makes a massive difference. Additionally, that ghee is increasing LDL.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Regarding your comment above, you should modulate starch intake without it having any direct effect on fat intake. I 150-200g of starch from sweet potato per day completely plain. It makes a massive difference.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:50 PM

Coming from reactive hypoglycemia, I was afraid to exercise without eating (carbs) first. This stuck with me until very recently. Since I am no longer subject to bouts of hypoglycemia, I experimented with doing all walking before meals and I saw a startling decrease in fat mass. This is the holy grail. Obviously it applies to blood-borne fats as well.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:46 PM

"Is your insulin elevated during this walking though?" It might be. In fact it likely is. I haven't ever thought about that. I suppose I could become conscious of it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I upped my starch intake significantly during this time, and look what happened, but then again, I also cook my tubers in coconut oil and ghee. Maybe I need to drop all dairy (gulp). I do NOT want to do this. Maybe the dairy is having some kind of insulinogenic effect in combination with the starches? But weird thing is, look at my fasting BG. It's 86. That's like.. ideal. Maybe it's the Palmitic Acid? See if I make too many changes all at once, then I won't know how identifiably assess what helped/hurt my success.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:43 PM

Is your insulin elevated during this walking though? It makes all the difference in the world.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:41 PM

I walk a lot, much more than the average person, probably much more than the above average person too. And I walk with purpose. If you ever want to run into Jack Kronk in person, just go walking around downtown San Diego on a weekday. You'll probably see me out there. I'm a "street parker". Plus I walk to around at lunch time all the time. I am also just very active in general and move about quite often. I think lowering fat and eating eating more starch could help, but it may be the combination that is getting me into trouble.

A0b8c4cc369f93ee987ce15b1bf323fe

on September 15, 2011
at 05:18 PM

I'm very interested to see this play out!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:31 AM

Jack, the problem with vitamin/mineral testing is that it is inaccurate without biopsy. Hair test may provide more meaningful result for minerals.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:29 AM

Travis, small doses of radiation are not damaging to your body, even contrary. Its called radiation hormesis, there are bunch of documents about it. Plus, research shows that Brazil Nuts for some reason do not make body more radioactive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:27 AM

Quilt, you are awesome. Data generating FTW.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 03:07 AM

Covered it except the VAP. If I get a huge bill in the mail because I was misled (I wouldn't be shocked) then I'll let you know.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 02:13 AM

Are in......I blog to give people an idea of how a clinician sees things......to see that optic you need to understand the perspective I have. I also answer questions when people ask why I say what I say.......context is critical to good medicine in my opinion.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 02:10 AM

My comment on your crp level is this....I want it microscopic in my practice. And I am a trend guy. I use this test more than most docs do. Same thing with D and ferritin and many others. The more I test and know the better feel I have for a patients biology......this is critical to re engineering a human. It requires a ton of work and thinking. This is why I am glad you are doing this n-1 for all to see. I will continue to comment where I see fit. People need to realize just how much context we need to understand our individual biology. I'm out of the macro picture that many bloggers

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 02:01 AM

If you read read my vitamin D post I want everyone I treat by sept 15th to have a D level of at least 60 by this time. Me personally I want to be 90-100 all the time. As you know I test myself like a mad man. My next set is coming up 9/21

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Doc-Thanks for your input here. I bet I do get enough sun in SD though. I've been laying out at 95%-100 nude in my private backyard for 25-30 min 3-5 times per week for almost 3 months. If a human needs more direct sun than being naked under the clear SD skies daily then something is wrong. As for K2, I am wondering if you can tell how much I am getting by my labs. I eat pasture butter, GF ghee, GF beef, GF milk, GF cheese.. I mean.. blimey! How much K2 can a man eat? As for you other comments I agree. I appreciate your efforts with helping people get healthy. We need more people like you Doc.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:47 AM

Neolithic disease feels like. See their faces. Look at their pain. Gives you a totally different optic. Medicine is an art wrapped with a science. A research paper has no context. What is in my head and experience gives you that context......providing I am thinking from a non dogmatic position. I practice practicing like this all the time. I'm not perfect but I try to be very open about how I think about medicine and disease.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:45 AM

Works for our own bodies DNA and our healthy. Making global statements about macronutrients from a rodent paper or even a human study on the Kitavins is not helpful to jack kronk. You dontshare their biology. You own your own. As a doc I treat people with problems. They don't pay me to read a bunch of papers on animals and humans to come up with a game plan. We use research, clinical papers, emperic evidence, and experience, and testing to increase our understanding of your specific biology. When your healthy this seems like a waste. Come to my clinic and see what being knee deep in

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:41 AM

The K2 issue is this.....I have found for the last seven years that I can raise a D level with vitamin K2 supplementation alone without any more D3. I use this a lot this time of the yr when days shorten anodyne no one in the US including SD gets enough sunlight. D for you is critical to keep optimal as you figure the maze out on your epigenetic switches. This path you are on is really not a true hack. It is how you will learn to tune the dials on your DNA. This is why my blog dedicated to you said you could help thousands. Your testing. I advocate testing. This is how we learn what

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:37 AM

I know what CM says......but what we are finding is people do best when their D is higher as long as other issues are also being dealt with. There is no credible data saying vitamin D 70-100 is bad and the cancer data is growing daily on how good a higher D seems to be. You Jk have to choose. Me the clinician who actually treat patients and not research papers feels quite differently.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:10 AM

yah i eat avocados regularly. red wine only occasionally, but I have been eating more dark and super dark chocolate lately (on purpose). oh and I seriously upped my egg intake too. forgot to mention that. I've been eating 3-4 eggs per day over the past couple months. All that yolk might play a role. I dunno. If these things don't boost my HDL, then it HAS to be related to what CMast and others talk about... thyroid/LDL receptor/genetics/FH... etc. Regardless, I am 31, and I hope that I at least have long enough to figure this out. With all of your help, we can learn some things from my case.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:50 AM

I gradually raised my HDL from the mid 40s to the mid 60s by exercising (HIIT), fish oil (2 tsps), avocados (1 per day) and some dry red wine. Maybe not all of them are helpful. But I definitely think fish oil and exercising are. I did not find coconut oil to be of any help in HDL ups, however.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:23 AM

And yes I would love to see my HDL above 60!! I have earned it based on my diet I can guarantee that, but I am not sure it's gonna jump by that much. With the increase in D from 44 to 58, more coconut oil, more red palm oil, more dark chocolate, more starch, and more working out, it BETTER be higher or someone's about to get a beat down cause I am sick of this 40 garbage. Hey even a 10% gain to 44 would be sorta nice. 20% to 48 would be even better.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:22 AM

My older brother and I had whooping cough 14 years ago. I believe I still have the antibodies floating around in my blood. I haven't had a cough of any kind in a very long time. I am never sick. As for liver enzymes, not sure. But I am not in a danger zone. Probably what's normal for one cat my not be exactly normal for another. This would be the reason for the ranges on these readings instead of single cold numbers to hit.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 14, 2011
at 11:47 PM

Also @Quilt, this back and forth is really helpful for people. Truly and thanks.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 14, 2011
at 11:46 PM

Jack Alas I cannot hack you my man. #notsmartenuff. BUT I want to thank you for sharing this information. People can really benefit from this knowledge!

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 14, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Quilt, in which items does K2 show up as? I thought it was helpful in strengthening bones in lieu of calcium. Doesn't it help with calcium and Vit D absorption? Is that what you mean? Is calcium is already high-normal.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 11:00 PM

Quilt - this is the stuff that needs to be in an answer! How can you tell what my K2 is? There was only one magnesium box to check on the form. Also, I'd be shocked if I am low in Vit A. I get it from multiple sources. And slight increase in CRP? The last CRP reading I have is from the very beginning of VLC, but going from .33 to .52 over 1 year can't be much to talk about. By the way.. I have pushed my D up to 58 with sun alone. No supps. Chris M says anything above 35 is still unknown and Dr Davis aims for 60 ng/ML, so I think 58.8 is right there on target. I am curious about the K2 though.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 14, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Will be interesting to see the new VaP. I have some context for you now.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 14, 2011
at 10:03 PM

Your D is too low for my practice.....but I would push your K2 way higher before I would add any more D3. Your close there but you have a mini pregnenlone steal going on is my bet

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 14, 2011
at 10:02 PM

You had the wrong Mg test too! Serum is never correct.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 14, 2011
at 10:01 PM

LDL is gonna come back high......but the fraction will change. You need to kick start the thyroid with a taste of cytomel, Se,I.....and vitamin A. I bet your DHEA s and T are both not optimal too. The slight increase in crp is the tell.....your HDL also won't be rockstrish.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:15 PM

Yah I told her I'm glad she has not started taking them yet and to wait so I can research it more because I feel the same way. She is going ALL in on completely changing her whole diet to what I recommend for her. She is 210 lbs and wants to get down to at 160 or better. It's nice to here that she is fed up with being big. She is asking a lot of the right questions and it helps that I have already successfully helped my younger brother lose 30+ pounds since June. He is 6'2 and was 260. Now he is 230 and his goal is 200. I have them on low carb Paleo until desired weight is reached.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:06 PM

I am extremely leery of directly intervening in the endocrine system, so you should see if your sister could supplement with both for a month or 3 and re-test before taking T4/T3 analogs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:01 PM

i used to eat sardines every week for a while but lost interest. i think I just got burnt out on them. I already have a bottle of KAL brand kelp tablets (225mcg) but only took them for 2 weeks back in March. Btw... now that I think about it, Selenium was 'checked' on the lab work write up but I don't see it here. Drat!

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:52 PM

Thanks Jack, looking forward to the VAP with the changes you've made.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

I agree with P. Jaminet that it's better to try to get it below 1 with kelp and a selenium supplement. You could eat a lot of sardines or something for the latter, otherwise you might want to just take 200mcg a day. I'm not convinced that Brazil nuts are a good idea: http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/brazilnuts.htm If your sister doesn't have Hashimoto's, she should do the same.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:44 PM

by the way... the red boxes are my doing. they are not "red flag" warnings or anything.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:40 PM

Travis - I don't supp iodine or selenium. Are you saying I should or I shouldn't? My sister just got her thyroid test results back. She is 5'4 and about 210 pounds. Her reading came back at 5.59 and they gave her thyroid replacement tablets but she hasn't started them yet. My 1.88 is well below the unsafe upper limits, but you still see it at somewhat highish?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:38 PM

Additionally, I have a feeling that your VAP will be much more in line with your expectations this time around due to the fact that it was done fasted.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:37 PM

Annie - I don't count, but I bet my carbs lowered overall. I did up my starch intake significantly though, which could replace the missing banana carbs so it may be close to a wash.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:31 PM

Jack, I am curious as to whether your overall carb ratio changed, or was it just the source of carbs that changed (such as honey and bananas versus potatoes, etc.)?

  • Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

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19 Answers

14
Medium avatar

on September 15, 2011
at 04:23 PM

First off, don't panic as this isn't even remotely severe. If you just got off a cycle of anabolic steroids and your TGs were 800, then you might want to worry. Even the average person is probably walking around with your panel or worse into middle-age. This isn't going to kill you anytime soon.

That being said, have you ever had your testosterone checked? Low T could explain a lot of this: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/5/1036.

Additionally, what are you doing to actively clear triglycerides from your blood? I know you do resistance training, but how much walking do you actually do per day? I walk the dog 5-6 miles a day whether I'm attempting to lean out or not. Walking is simply not optional. Hominin diets have varied significantly over the last few million years, but one commonality that they all had was a high daily volume of low intensity activity. Much of it was performed in the fasted state, since they had to work harder for their food. At low insulin levels and constant activity, muscle mitochondria readily soak up FFAs and triglycerides (from VLDL and chylomicrons). I believe that the TG measurement in lipid panels only measures the content of VLDL, however, if you're creating huge amounts of TGs in chylomicrons with a high fat diet while remaining sedentary, you could definitely slow down the clearance of VLDL-TGs.

I am thoroughly convinced that an individual with elevated TGs can clear them from circulation in a matter of days if they do the following:

Stop glycolytic activity and eat around 150g of starch a day (mostly at night right before bed). Walk/cycle/whatever as much as possible in the fasted state. Do not exceed your anaerobic threshold. Burn more fat through increases in volume, not intensity. The walking doesn't have to be all at once, but it must be in the fasted state. Eat lean meat for a while, but make sure to get your EFAs from somewhere. I recommend 4-5 pastured egg yolks a day. Lower fat will cause a decrease in the production of chylomicrons, which compete with VLDL for binding sites. You only have to decrease dietary fat temporarily.

Walking increases HDL and decreases TGs. It's absolutely vital for health. You can not eat your way around this one.

If you already currently do this, then you're probably looking at low testosterone or something else.

Edit: It's time for me to put my money where my mouth is. If you follow my above advice to the letter for the next two weeks and retest your TGs (with a standard lipid panel or VAP) and they haven't dropped considerably, I'll paypal you the cost of the test. This should work even if you do have low testosterone.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis. Additionally, an all fat meal, though it doesn't cause a spike in insulin, will cause a spike in fat in the blood, which will be then be cleared by the active muscles' mitochondria. Eating anything will undermine the effect of this protocol, so make sure you are 100% fasted. 50% of the time that I am walking my stomach starts growling; just ignore it like your ancestors did.

A0b8c4cc369f93ee987ce15b1bf323fe

on September 15, 2011
at 05:18 PM

I'm very interested to see this play out!

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 09:54 PM

Weight training itself burns very little fat, depletes glycogen and therefore increases the glycogenic burden and increases appetite. If you undertake this test, you should stop doing it for 2 weeks as well.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:50 PM

Coming from reactive hypoglycemia, I was afraid to exercise without eating (carbs) first. This stuck with me until very recently. Since I am no longer subject to bouts of hypoglycemia, I experimented with doing all walking before meals and I saw a startling decrease in fat mass. This is the holy grail. Obviously it applies to blood-borne fats as well.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:46 PM

"Is your insulin elevated during this walking though?" It might be. In fact it likely is. I haven't ever thought about that. I suppose I could become conscious of it.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:09 PM

I eat all sweet potato, which I chop into pieces about 3/4 of a cm thick and then microwave (a whole plate full takes about 8 minutes - srs). Tastes good to me, but it's important that you experiment with sweet potato varieties until you find the right type. Orange-fleshed ones are no good for this in my experience. You could also boil potatoes and eat them with salt and spices. This isn't something you have to do for the rest of your life, just for two weeks to clear the TGs, after which just use a bit of coconut oil if you need to. Fasted walking should continue forever though.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Regarding your comment above, you should modulate starch intake without it having any direct effect on fat intake. I 150-200g of starch from sweet potato per day completely plain. It makes a massive difference.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 11:33 PM

What if I stopped lifting for 3 months, retested, and all levels improved. Wouldn't that be strange? Instead of making me believe weight lifting is a problem, it would actually make me wonder if the rules might change for some folks who are eating Paleo and doing heavy strength training. Almost like.. what if I am totally fine? And the reason for my numbers being this way is maybe because of my lifestyle choices all around. The 'ranges' that are determined to be safe are for people who, for the most part, are nothing like me. Makes me wonder if I am worried about something I shouldn't be.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Suppose you are completely right, and what you are saying works perfectly for me... what about long term? If I return to my ways after the two weeks, won't the same issue rear its head again? What would be the benefit of clearing my trigs if they will just return anyway?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Regarding your comment above, you should modulate starch intake without it having any direct effect on fat intake. I eat 150-200g of starch from sweet potato per day completely plain. It makes a massive difference. Additionally, that ghee is increasing LDL.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:33 PM

Not right before exercise, no.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:43 PM

Is your insulin elevated during this walking though? It makes all the difference in the world.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:41 PM

I walk a lot, much more than the average person, probably much more than the above average person too. And I walk with purpose. If you ever want to run into Jack Kronk in person, just go walking around downtown San Diego on a weekday. You'll probably see me out there. I'm a "street parker". Plus I walk to around at lunch time all the time. I am also just very active in general and move about quite often. I think lowering fat and eating eating more starch could help, but it may be the combination that is getting me into trouble.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:54 AM

By the way.. something to consider... after 2 months of VLC and high fat zero starch, with plenty of butter, some raw milk, coconut oil, plenty of whey protein, 3x wk heavy lifting, I tested for 85 fasting trigs back in Oct 2010. So it may be the combination of starch and fat that's getting me, or it may be the pre-workout shake. During my VLC in 2010, I always drank it post workout.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 09:04 PM

I do that about 50% of the time, so about 2-3 times per week. I wonder if that is a big contributing factor here. I am always most suspicious of things that are chronic and regular, rather than 'once in a while' choices.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:34 AM

Well if you after this period you continue to do fasted, low-intensity exercise every day, your TGs will never rise again. The reason they dropped before with VLC was that insulin was always so low that your muscle mitochondria torched all of the fat in your blood. You *can* have it both ways by eating starch mostly late at night when you are least active and exercising fasted. Throughout the day eat meat and fat.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I upped my starch intake significantly during this time, and look what happened, but then again, I also cook my tubers in coconut oil and ghee. Maybe I need to drop all dairy (gulp). I do NOT want to do this. Maybe the dairy is having some kind of insulinogenic effect in combination with the starches? But weird thing is, look at my fasting BG. It's 86. That's like.. ideal. Maybe it's the Palmitic Acid? See if I make too many changes all at once, then I won't know how identifiably assess what helped/hurt my success.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 07:43 PM

*"Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis."* Are you suggesting that I not take a protein drink by itself? That would be the only time I get an 'all protein meal'.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:06 PM

Another thing to consider is that the concomitant release of glucagon that occurs with insulin during an all-protein meal may be insufficient to undo the inhibition of lipolysis. Additionally, an all fat meal, though it doesn't cause a spike in insulin, will cause a spike in fat in the blood, which will then be cleared by the active muscles' mitochondria. Eating anything will undermine the effect of this protocol, so make sure you are 100% fasted. 50% of the time that I am walking my stomach starts growling; just ignore it like your ancestors did.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:09 AM

Jack: This *might* explain the situation: http://paleohacks.com/questions/65180/could-serum-triglycerides-get-caught-in-a-positive-feedback-loop#axzz1Y5gTJX4r

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 06:03 PM

What about wroking out. Sometimes I eat before working out. Sometimes after. Sometimes I drink a pre-workout drink. Sometimes after. What if the whey protein is having an insuligenic effect pre-workout and then I am pounding weights intensely, causing problems doing so. By the way.. you eat potato and sweet potato completely plain? How, friend? That's like eating cardboard or something. I'm not making excuses. I'm just thinking that I dont want to go through life eating plain, dry, boring starch. Bleckk.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:14 AM

I think moderate resistance training is necessary for good health as it leads to stronger bones and fends off sarcopenia. That said, strictly for these two weeks in an attempt to clear the triglycerides from your blood, weight training will be counter-productive.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:27 AM

I just mean keep it low intensity so it's purely fat burning. What's good for bodyfat reduction is good for TG oxidation.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:17 PM

My research continues though and I will keep you updated as I discover possible pieces of the puzzle. In general though, the more your diet/lifestyle resembles that of actual HGs, the more it all takes care of itself. I know it's a poor match for our modern lives, but for me it's seamless. If my advice ever becomes insulting/condescending/vague like some of the stuff you've been receiving, let me know.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:14 PM

I can't imagine a scenario where you do those things and LDL and VLDL don't drop. I would have no way of accounting for that short of some kind of endocrine disruption. The trouble I have is that my ascetic's diet is so simple that our diets vary hugely. I'm allergic to coconut, I don't drink, when I went in last and had TGs of 37 I was eating at least 100-150g of starch but virtually no fructose, etc. I was actually not walking nearly as much at the time, so it may be a lot lower now. I couldn't tell you if it's all those things or just one.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:24 AM

Travis - what do you mean by this? *"Do not exceed your anaerobic threshold."*

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:18 PM

I have been doing a lot of what you describe in your instruction above (in your answer). I have seriously cut back on dairy fats, nrealy eliminating butter and cream completely. Also no sour cream. No ghee. No coconut oil. No cheese. Also, I have been walking in a mostly fasted state (I say mostly because sometimes it's several hours after eating breakfast (like right before lunch). Or right before dinner. I go in tomorrow morning to do another VAP and everything else. Hopefully some of these changes have made a positive impact. But if not, I might need to give it more time.

6
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 16, 2011
at 10:26 PM

I think these labs are curious but it is like doing a smog check when it is the alternator busted...

Without a salivary cortisol x4, you can self assess your body/brain indicators with Dr.Rind's metabolic symptom matrix. Thyroid and adrenal function are intimately tied and practically co-function together. Both are usually 'off' but different degrees. Also it is dynamic -- as our health responds to relaxation, supplements, food, environment, sleep, the symptoms rapidly shift.

Things I would consider for priority if you have adrenal insufficiency and suboptimal thyroid:

(a). Adrenal (the alternator/spark) -- many people have insufficiency and I believe IMHO in epigenetics as Kruse is often alluding to. You were born in the 80s and if your mom was somewhat on the SAD, pesticide-laden grains, eating margarine over butter, and corn oil, the health and gut dysbiosis she might have suffered was passed down to you in form of a poor gut microbiome as well as epigenetically affected cortisol and other hormone effects. McBride-Campbell (GAPS) talks about it. This is also shown stress in mother rats will raise cortisol and BP in babies rats but many things improve this to optimum and correct (like omega-3). Briffa talks about adrenal fatigue in teens HERE. Personally I developed some adrenal issues with doing endurance stuff whilst ketotic. Some people are really healthy adrenal-wise (I think Kruse! the Eades! Gary Taubes! Sisson and Doug McGuff!) but many just aren't esp younger ones like you (and I haa). Have you read Kruse's post on adrenals? Personally I rotate between Standard Process and Metagenix adrenal support. They contain glandulars which help the adrenal to rebuild; ancestrally we all ate glands (chorizo, whole small fish, leaf lard, sweet meats, etc).

(b). Testosterone -- ditto the above comments. I observe T tripling with vit D supp alone. Vit D is very powerful and even Guyenet supplements this (only in the winter he told me; but he is very untan and lives in Seattle w/sunny French blood!). When the adrenals perk up -- so will thyroid and T... There are tricks to get it up... j/k.

(c). Thyroid -- low thyroid is epidemic for a variety of reasons. You sort of need to figure out why. Low adrenal? Over exercising? Mental stress? Metal toxicity? Lack of micronutrients (vitamin D, omega-3, zinc, mag, calcium, selenium, iodine, etc)? For me, vit D normalized my TSH to 1.0 for the first time in my life (then I fried my adrenals and TSH increased again). Many things affect HDL/TG including low thyroid. Low thyroid causes insulin resistance and difficulty to oxidizing fat for energy. See Rind's chart.

(d). Liver -- the ALT AST appear mildy high (experts believe < 15 ALT is nl for men, 12 women). It's not the beer imho... Has the ferritin ever been high (rule out hemochromatosis)? Was liver high before? For formally SAD/fructose damaged, this is not uncommon. Omega-3 has value if it is mild NASH. The common causes of NASH/fatty liver are (via PPAR pathway disruption): high carbs/fructose/fruit, omega-3 deficiency, excess n-6 pufa and fat gain. In the medical literature the converse all improve NASH/fatty liver: fructose restriction, lower carb, fat loss, and omega-3 supplementation. Omega-3 also improves CRP and silent inflammation and autoimmune disorders via PPAR activation. Only takes 2-4wks to normalize if fatty liver.

(e). Gut -- it's central.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:27 AM

grace - *"Many neolethal factors affect it and congest it up including high banana and potatoe (high GI) intakes"* This applies to potatoes due to high GI? So even glucose starches?

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:25 AM

What was the ferritin before? Slight link with iron overload, subsequent oxidation and NASH. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513189 Anything that leads to hyperinsulinemia is connected to NASH -- low thyroid (low adrenals), high carbs, low vitamin C/E/antixoxidants, low omega-3, oxidation (e.g. iron overload). NASH is a big problem -- it is one of the rising epidemic reasons for liver transplants and victims are getting younger and younger. BUT TOTALLY REVERSIBLE when caught early... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11266382 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17032189

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:21 PM

Grace, you're right on it and that's what I noticed about his liver enzymes. Those are not the enzymes of someone who's paleoing and exercising. My rec is to get his ANA tested and see if he has some inflammation-inducing autoimmune disease somewhere.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:21 AM

Jack -- it's not just fructose but fructose is just worse since far less insulin is released to correspond with the BG spike. I think the evolutionary basis is that fruit and carbs (honey, tubers) were more seasonal and the ability lay down fat via BG/insulin prior to cold climate determined the regulation of fertility, reproduction and essentially survival. However I see fatty liver in fat-skinny Asians who had ancestors at the equator and as soon as they lower carbs (I don't dictate -- I just 'lower' but if poss no fruit, potatoes, grains knowing 1-2x cheats/wk is ok), the ALT is PERFECT.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:22 PM

Yup, I agree with the 2-4 week time since I used to have fatty liver and it was gone immediately when I started low-carbing.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 17, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Namby Pamby -- you are a ROCKSTAR!!! And pretty good at making astute observations. The liver should not be underestimated! Many neolethal factors affect it and congest it up including high banana and potatoe (high GI) intakes... People think they are following MD orders by eating 5 fruits a day... wrong. They are increasing oxLDL and f*ckin up the detox and metabolic pathways in the liver. G

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 04:19 PM

Jack, maybe you want a full hepatis panel just in case. Are your other liver numbers okay (billirubin, e.g.)? They should be part of the whole suite.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 10:27 AM

Both the AST and ALT are mildly suboptimal within 'normal range' however AST is a more long-term indicator of liver damage and the fact that both are high leads me to suspect that whatever the reason for damage is longer than just the recent high carb intake; didn't you state w/the earlier lab you were VLC?

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 18, 2011
at 01:45 AM

For correction of adrenals, it is excellent to consume a higher carbohydrate diet -- but I wouldn't personally do it with high fruit. Wild, organic berries are fine (low GI + antioxidants). For adrenals to improve function it is in fact IMPERATIVE to get enough carbs to increase insulin to point of eclipsing serum cortisol (and to lower cortisol if excessively high via yoga, vacations, Relora, low intensity exercise, avoiding HIIT, etc). The problem with fruit is it raises BG without raising insulin -- won't work if trying for adrenals. Read: Diana Scharzbien principle II

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Grace maybe you will get to him because he is not getting me at all. I told him this already. His labs are speaking truth to him and he cant fathom his own gut is doing all this.

6
76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:45 PM

I feel like I shouldn't even be posting in here because I am so uneducated on this topic compared to the other posters. But I'm going to toss in my two cents because you're one of my favourite paleohackers. I find it so strange that a guy as ripped as you is said to have "probable metabolic syndrome".

Like others have said, I feel this could be thyroid related. Perhaps you are deficient in a micronutrient (iodine, selenium, magnesium, zinc?) and need to go on a higher dose for a bit to make up for the deficiency. On that note, what's your liver/offal intake like? Maybe frequent intake of liver could address a micronutrient deficiency (as well as provide vitamin A as Quilt has suggested). Also, how's your sleep and stress?

after 2 months of VLC and high fat zero starch, with plenty of butter, some raw milk, coconut oil, plenty of whey protein, 3x wk heavy lifting, I tested for 85 fasting trigs back in Oct 2010. So it may be the combination of starch and fat that's getting me

Perhaps you just don't have the genes to do the fat+starch gig. I think the key point is that your trigs were ~30% of what they are now after doing 2 months of VLC. You could try going back to low-carb for a while, while still doing the HDL boosting things you've been doing lately (tons of coconut, eggs, avocado, maybe macadamia nuts and dark chocolate, etc.). ~50-70g of tubers in the evening and ensuring proper micronutrient intake (liver, shellfish, iodine, selenium) should keep your thyroid in business. But again, if you do have a thyroid problem, you should forget about everything I just said in this paragraph and do whatever it takes to get that thyroid pumping. Perhaps a full thyroid panel is in order.

Please take my two cents with a grain of salt. Again, my knowledge here is limited. Keep us posted.

ETA: I assume the reason I got downvoted here is because I may have come across as carbphobic. To add to that last paragraph re: starch+fat being an issue: The other option is to try the high starch/low fat route.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:53 PM

Phoenix - Thanks for much for your input here. I agree with the metabolic syndrome comment. It's hard to look in the mirror and convince myself of that. Regarding thyroid, I think you could definitely be correct. The more research I do on thyroid, the more I believe it may be playing a very significant role here. One good thing is that I had scallops the other day and I had forgotten how much I loved them. I will be eating more scallops!

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:56 PM

Yeah, scallops are delish. I realize my answer probably adds to your frustration right now - "try low-carb, or try high carb, get this test done, take this supplement or this supplement". Melissa's answer should be added on to every answer in here. It's definitely going to take some work and detail, but I once you figure out whatever is causing the problem (if there really is a problem), I hope it's smooth sailing for you, Jack.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:54 PM

Btw.. the box I checked was "Thyroid Cascade Panel" and all they gave me was the TSH. This is precisely what CMast and Kresser had a laugh about in the latest podcast. Like.. what kind of "panel" is that?

6
Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on September 15, 2011
at 07:20 PM

Honestly, I would drop the high fat model and adopt a higher carb paleo with about 60% coming from carbs, and 20-20 fat - protein split. Focus on low fructose starches and lean meats and fish.

Your thyroid is low and you probably dont have good T3, thus your testosterone is also probably low. I imagine your weight loss combined with the 6 months you spent on VLC has lowered your thyroid hormones and Testosterone. Just adding in starch doesn't cut it... you should try some sort of "refeed" diet with higher carbs and low fat to increase T3 and things should look better after a month.

Danny Roddy has touched on this and it seems to be working for him.

EDIT: Also definitely consider an Iodine and Selenium supplment. I recommend Iosol over Iodoral or Kelp.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:51 PM

Just curious, how do you use Iosol? Do you put it into soup or drinks? Seems like 2 drops will do it at 3.6 mg. I've never used Iodine droplets, my sole experience being Kelp and Prolamine Iodine tablets, which come with calcium and I'm trying to avoid calcium at any cost.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:23 PM

I would do exactly the opposite

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Jack, what about going for a classic 40/40/20 share of protein carbohydrate and fat. I mean classic as far as lifter people. I'm not afraid of fat, eat the good stuff: coconut and palm like you are. Just saying maybe you don't need that much of it. Just an idea.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Very good advice bill

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:38 PM

@Namby I just put 3 drops in like 2-4oz of water first thing in the morning and drink straight up. @Cliff thanks brother. @Quilt... but what if his T is low? We are seeing many guys who go VLC for a long time have this kind of phenomenon happen and the ones who have pullled themselves out of it went to a higher carb, lower fat Paleo diet. I think getting his T tested and a full thyroid panel will clear this up.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on September 17, 2011
at 12:04 AM

I agree with Bill.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:15 AM

I think low T is an issue.....but its causes need to be hashed before one treats. It could be cortisol or it could be low LH production or changes in SHBG.....regarding iodine issue....even in hashimotos i think iodine works provided you preload the gland with selenium. This is why so many with hashimotos do badly with ioodine. Not because iodine is bad....but because their selenium gas tank is empty.

5
Fe6e37f8d4c49de1ecbc926c8900cd54

on September 16, 2011
at 01:08 AM

I just listened to this the other day: http://chriskresser.com/episode-16-chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-heart-disease-part-2

The focal topic is whether lipid panels are diagnostically useful (and it's not strictly theoretical--CM offers some specific approaches to interpreting panels that might be helpful). So along the lines of Jay's comment--I wonder whether these numbers actually indicate a problem...?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:57 PM

Correct, but I think the trigs are considered more reliable than the LDL numbers. Also HDL is the most reliable marker and Jack's is alarmingly low given his exercise routines and wholefoods diet.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Yep......time for him to seriously adapt. His experiment is going to help lots of folks. I hope he continues it. It's a great learning tool

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 16, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I was just thinking about this podcast too, Chris M selflessly is following and answering all the show comments thread on Chris K's website. Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 16, 2011
at 10:24 PM

I was just thinking about this podcast too, Chris M selflessly is following and answering all the show comments thread on Chris M website. Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 07:48 PM

FRM - *"Why don't you chew on his ear and get his thoughts?"* Are you suggesting that I do that? I did post a comment there.

5
Medium avatar

on September 14, 2011
at 08:31 PM

Edit: Jack, have you ever had your testosterone checked? Low T could explain a lot of this: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/5/1036.short

The only thing that stands out to me is the somewhat high TSH; do you supplement with iodine and selenium? Hgb looks to be right where you want it even with the low iron. I can't imagine that iron wouldn't take care of itself on most paleo diets unless you're giving blood all the time or something.

Vitamin D is at a safe level, though some would want it higher. Anywhere around 60 is probably the best place to be.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:38 PM

Additionally, I have a feeling that your VAP will be much more in line with your expectations this time around due to the fact that it was done fasted.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:00 AM

Jon, Travis has had a blog for a long time.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:06 PM

I am extremely leery of directly intervening in the endocrine system, so you should see if your sister could supplement with both for a month or 3 and re-test before taking T4/T3 analogs.

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on September 16, 2011
at 10:03 AM

A not-linked-from-paleohacks blog then? My googlefoo is failing me, can you point me to it?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Jon, Travis has a blog.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:40 PM

Travis - I don't supp iodine or selenium. Are you saying I should or I shouldn't? My sister just got her thyroid test results back. She is 5'4 and about 210 pounds. Her reading came back at 5.59 and they gave her thyroid replacement tablets but she hasn't started them yet. My 1.88 is well below the unsafe upper limits, but you still see it at somewhat highish?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:15 PM

Yah I told her I'm glad she has not started taking them yet and to wait so I can research it more because I feel the same way. She is going ALL in on completely changing her whole diet to what I recommend for her. She is 210 lbs and wants to get down to at 160 or better. It's nice to here that she is fed up with being big. She is asking a lot of the right questions and it helps that I have already successfully helped my younger brother lose 30+ pounds since June. He is 6'2 and was 260. Now he is 230 and his goal is 200. I have them on low carb Paleo until desired weight is reached.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:23 PM

You need a new doctor, man. That's like your mechanic saying "I refuse to check your valve clearances." They work for you and your money, directly or indirectly, pays them. Western medicine is really in trouble.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 14, 2011
at 09:01 PM

i used to eat sardines every week for a while but lost interest. i think I just got burnt out on them. I already have a bottle of KAL brand kelp tablets (225mcg) but only took them for 2 weeks back in March. Btw... now that I think about it, Selenium was 'checked' on the lab work write up but I don't see it here. Drat!

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

I agree with P. Jaminet that it's better to try to get it below 1 with kelp and a selenium supplement. You could eat a lot of sardines or something for the latter, otherwise you might want to just take 200mcg a day. I'm not convinced that Brazil nuts are a good idea: http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/brazilnuts.htm If your sister doesn't have Hashimoto's, she should do the same.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:29 AM

Travis, small doses of radiation are not damaging to your body, even contrary. Its called radiation hormesis, there are bunch of documents about it. Plus, research shows that Brazil Nuts for some reason do not make body more radioactive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 08:31 AM

Jack, the problem with vitamin/mineral testing is that it is inaccurate without biopsy. Hair test may provide more meaningful result for minerals.

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on September 15, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Travis, start a blog already! Your answers are consistently good (or at least interesting). You seem to get most of your ideas from peer-reviewed science literature. I think a blog would be awesome!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:42 AM

JK.......if my doc told me that......i kick him in the balls and punch him out before i fired him........just saying.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:23 PM

As I mentioned above T is a huge factor here. So is T3 and vitamin A. Nothing on his VAP surprised me.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 05:28 PM

I asked my doc to please approve a testosterone and cortisol testing. Response: *"I do not recommend checking your testosterone or cortisol levels because for you, these would not have any clinical significance."*

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 18, 2011
at 07:24 AM

Quilt - I don't think that Doctor has balls. I'm pretty sure she has a taco. Her name is Jennifer.

4
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 03:18 AM

Kronk,

(haa ahha) Did Stabby offer to help you ameliorate the iron problem with his exclusive solution (stab stab)??!

Give more blood... Consider the high value of the APOE4 test (and other tests!). E4 is the ancestral hunter-gatherer allele (Meat-Adaptive Genes and Evolution of Slower Aging, Stanford and Finch, 2004). Those with this allele are more highly susceptibly to glycation damage (oxLDL, small dense LDL, rampant heart disease, diabetes Type 3/Alzheimer's, osteoporosis) and LEAD, ALUMINUM, MERCURY accumulation.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html

http://www.uwplatt.edu/research/purf/henning03.pdf

http://www.howweheal.com/Godfrey-I.pdf

Here is Genova's genetic testing info on metals and known chronic diseases related to apoE4: http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/Cardio-Genomic-Plus-Sample-Report.pdf

A high GI carb diet (tapioca flours, white potatoes, bananas, et cetera) is the slow death of ApoE4'ers. I'm not trying to cr*p on your current experiment because the benefit may outweigh the risks since moderatish carbs will heal adrenals and high cortisol (VLC make adrenals worse if the adrenals are incompetent). A lot of herbals/hormone replacement help MORE with lowering cortisol (Relora, omega-3 fish oil, vitamin D, bulking fiber (I don't like guar gum but glucomannan, psyllium, chorella, parsley/herbs/cilantro, etc are great as well as help our gut/organs to eliminate metals harbored in deep soft tissues).

As you can tell from research by Dreon and Krauss et al, a high carb diet produced pattern B and increased small dense LDL (by proxy oxLDL and glycation) on VAP; high fat, the least amount of sdLDL: http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/15/1/105.full

What is your ANCESTRY?

Other labs you can consider with your conventional wisdom doc:

-- fasting insulin (if >5 mUI/L then you are still IR/LR, resistant to insulin and leptin)

-- MMA (methyl malonic acid) for B12 deficiency

-- homocysteine

-- ferritin

-- SHBG, Free T, Total testosterone (good end-game markers!! AHHH! cr*p on the rest!!)

-- Thyroid panel (real this time!) incl rT3, Free T4, Free T3, antibodies

I ask about your ancestry because I suspect like others who have LDL > 200s, that you are of northern Europe descent where E4 is the most prevalent. If so, you ancestors were skull-crushing, marrow-munching, liver-loving CARNIVORES! No joke they likely ate TONGUE-TO-TESTICLES!!

As hominids 30-100 millenia ago dominated northern Europe, they migrated away from mineral rich marine shores and sea flora and fauna. The natural selection of mineral hoarding genes for iodine, magnesium, zinc, calcium and upregulation of cholesterol production and intestinal absorption compensated. In the north way from UV-radiation rich sunlight and rich fruits/vegetables that were rich in Vitamin C, less iron from dietary sources were absorbed (vitamin C and acid upregulate iron uptake in the intestines). Iron hoarding genes like hemachromatosis were selected since pregnancy dictates a 2-3 fold increase in iron requirements for baby and mom.

After grains/lectins entered the food chain, the hemochromotosis genes became set in the population. Grains/lectins trigger the iron overload phenotype by two semi-lethal mechanisms that lead to low iron: (a) lectins/casein/gluten cause enterocytes to die by gut dysbiosis and at the tip of enterocytes are our mineral transporters, (b) grains/lectins/phytates bind dietary minerals making them biologically unavailable. Unsoaked legumes, soy, lentils, nuts and seeds are can be major problems.

With less vegetable intake and increased meat/organ meats, in northern evolving hominids (like Neanderthals 30k-200k years ago) hypomethylation of B vitamins was needed otherwise overload of activated B vitamins would have been detrimental epigenetically (role in DNA methylation) and for enzyme processes. Downregulation of beta carotene conversion as well to retinol as organ meats, fatty grassfed meat and brain tissues provided excessive vitamin A/retinol, Vitamin B12 and methylated folate/MTHF/TMG/betaine/SAMe/etc. Organ meats, particularly liver, and marrow/meat and fat also contained vital nutrients for the brain/pregnancy/birth like trace minerals, DHA, other omega-3 (EPA), saturated fat, vaccenic acid, CLA and iodine.

If you do the complete suite of genetic testing (like 23andme.com or elsewhere) I think a lot will be revealed to you, as Kruse has discussed at length with you. It is wonderful to see you questioning and evolving your critical brain!

If you of northern European descent, it is no wonder that a high carb, grain based diet offends your gut and organs. (IMHO a high GI carb paleo diet is still problematic long term) ApoE4 are the least agarian-adapted of the entire globe.

I totally concur w/many of Kruse's observations for you. I suspect the same:

--poor B methylator

--hemochromatosis allele(s) HFE C282Y or other mutations

--apoE4 allele(s)

--heavy metal accumulation and damage

--gut permeability

--pancreatic enzyme insufficiency (goes hand-in-hand w/dysbiosis; elastase deficiency, fat malabsorption, protein maldigestion, SIBO, fructose intolerance, you name it)

--silent oxidation, inflammation, subclinical infection/sepsis

--mineral deficiencies (depleted from SAD, high carb and gut dysbiosis) incl Mag, Zinc, Iodine

--poor convertor of betacarotene to retinol

--poor convertor of ALA to EPA DHA and omega-3 deficiency

--celiac (HLA DQ2 and/or DQ8 alleles)

Kruse,

I am with you 120%! However I believe you underestimate the burden of toxicity that our generation and my children's generations are overloaded with. Adrenal incompetence is pandemic and it is worsening with each generation due to many industrial toxins, dietary toxins (HFCS, n-6, GMO lectins like Bt crops/canola/corn/potatoes) and personal toxins (mercury amalgams, estrogenic body fat, n-3 deficiencies, zinc-pica, etc).

Did you see this? Briffa reported how common suboptimal cortisol found in teens: http://www.drbriffa.com/2011/02/10/long-term-behavioural-problems-in-adolescents-linked-with-low-stress-hormone-levels-why/

I know from my own experience I took the supplements you advised though the vitamin C was probably not high enough 1-2 yrs ago (now that I read Majkinetor's info! THANK YOU!) After the heavy metal burden, nothing for adrenals worked except gentle oral chelation and glandulars. Once gut dysbiosis sets in, much harder to do leptin reset without higher carbs to moderate cortisol and to raise insulin. I have low insulin and I intend to keep this long term. Ketosis is fine but adrenals take precedence. Once adrenals are perfect, then ketosis, intermittent fasting, perfect hormones and lowish-moderatish carb (~ < 50-150 grams/day) are the best ways to stay shredded (whilst keeping cheat (high carb) days)!!! Actually I think the balance of a high carb day is more important to reset/maintain sensitivities... Anything is better than the 300-350 g carbs per day S.A.D.!

-G

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 07:16 AM

grace - you are awesome. I am going to re-read this several times. Thanks. Thanks. And thanks again. ApoE4 and T and T3/T4 testing is on the very near horizon.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 08, 2011
at 12:48 PM

way to much theorycrafting, sounds like a bunch of BS. Many northern european people do just fine on high carb, low carb is just a band aid fix.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 09, 2011
at 06:14 PM

*"It IS theorycrafting. All of it is."* That's exactly correct. That's why I appreciate all the input. I don't take everything as perfectly true. I consider the theories, and mesh the ideas together with my labs combined with how I'm feeling and decide how I want to proceed. We are figuring things out. We are "hacking".

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 08:21 AM

I'm the 'good cop' *haa ah!* Please keep asking questions!! [You help me because I learn alot as well!!]

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 06:40 PM

cliff - I knoiw a lot of people do well on high carb Paleo using starchy tubers as their primary carb source (which we all know that you do). That's fantastic bud. But I must consider that possibly the high GI content of starch is (for me) tinkering around with my blood glucose and insulin in such a way that it may be resulting in high lipid numbers, particularly oxidizable variety like VLDL and sdLDL. Starchy carbs was one of the major changes I made I the results show a marked increase in the wrong direction.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 09, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Cliff -- stretch your hormonal thoughts out. Insulin resistance depends on several factors --industrial toxins (pesticides, metals, pthlates, n-6 pufa, etc), testosterone, adrenal fatigue, hypothyroidism etc. You are sorta correct -- later when Kronk corrects things he 'may' be able to tolerate more carbs but he'll have to test and figure that is tolerable. For now, the labs show that he is not. It's black and white. I posted articles and if you don't know how to interpret then find someone who does. It IS theorycrafting. All of it is. Show a better theory buddy.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 06:42 PM

I know that it may be to early to blame starch at this point, but it is also too early and undetermined to simply rule it out just because so many people do well on high carb. So many people also do well on high fat VLC. So many people do well on massive amount of coconut oil. or eggs, or dairy, or even whole grains!!! So I have to find what is messing with me personally, and right now, starch is still on the table.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 10, 2011
at 09:16 AM

*haaa!!* Yes. I am humping a hypothesis... and so is EVERYONE. But I wear rose-colored glasses because I've observed so much health optimization and improvements in what we consider reliable markers (ripped abs, ROCKSTAR hair, kind attitudes and schwingtastic lab metrics). MY METRICS!! The ancestry and genetics are new for me (because of AHS!) but I believe technology will slowly bridge the gaps to our limited understanding. For now. ALL. HUMPING.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 10, 2011
at 06:43 PM

where are the athletes and cultures thriving on VLC?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 10, 2011
at 06:42 PM

[email protected] the most amount of carbs youve ever eaten on paleo is 150g?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:12 PM

He ate high carb during ironman. Being low carb when your sitting around doing nothing doesn't rove jack, do you guys get that? Te guy looks like kermit the frog and has no muscles http://media.us.macmillan.com/authors/258H/2214537.jpg

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 11, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Guys on every nfl football team are eating VLC? Seriously??

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:13 PM

n oe can do VLC and endurance, especially if your competing and want any hopes of winning. VLC+endurance will destroy your health.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 09:57 PM

On every nfl football team. I have 57 clients who use it off and on.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:38 AM

they can't use it during game season, if your claiming they do i would love names.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 10:21 AM

(1) STUART L. TRAGER, M.D. is a board certified orthopedic surgeon. He is an eight-time Ironman and a top ten finisher at the Ultraman World, author of All-New Atkins Advantage, 2004. (2) Dr. Doug McGuff MD -- ER physician and author of BSS and gymowner, AHS speaker. I read he intakes ~50 grams carbs/day. (3) Researcher Stephen Phinney. Requires bangin adrenals which I think most ordinary folks don't have anymore. Personally tried it, and can't do IF/VLC whilst endurance stuff because it requires really strong adrenal function.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on November 15, 2011
at 01:40 AM

I can tell you, there is no football coach that will let his players go on a low carb diet. It's like putting sumo wrestlers on a low carb diet. Do u know what sumo wrestlers eat? Rice, corn, beans, peas. Basically, they're fed like our conventionally-bred cattle. If you lose your mass, you're done as a football player. Now I can believe retired NFL or MLB players being on VLC. Allen Wells (NY Yankees), e.g., is on a low carb diet. But no NFL player is on a VLC diet.

44739854bd06eb5c32af5d33aa866864

(859)

on February 08, 2012
at 04:23 PM

Great post grace... I'm waiting on my 23andMe results, I'll be sure to check for the ApoE4 allele(s), especially since I feel noticeably better VLC just from past experimentation.

4
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 16, 2011
at 08:39 PM

A lot of people are telling you different things. A potential problem I see is that you can't just try a week of one diet, you are going to have to tightly regulate your nutrition for months and then re-test. It's going to be grueling, as both diets being suggested (low-fat, keto) are at the extreme end of things. I would suggest getting a subscription to cron o meter online so you can make sure your mineral intake is optimal while you do either diet.

I would also be curious if you have some kind of chronic infection. Have you had a full stool panel? The body often chelates iron to fight infection.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 08:48 PM

Melissa - yah you're not kiddin. I got people insisting I go high starch low fat. I got people insisting I go VLC. Some say drop dairy. Some say more K2. I wish I could get some kind of home blood test lab kit to test the basic lipids so I can really get an understanding of what's going on. It seems very strange that most people can just eat whole real foods and not worry about it while I have to micro-analyze everything I'm doing even tho I'm in the best shape of my life. I will look into cron o meter. My iron was slightly elevated, w/ semi-low clearance. But no, I havent done a stool sample.

3
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 08:21 PM

Ok so after all the hacking so far... I have a general game plan. This is based on so many different perspectives though, that it's impossible to really go one single direction or run with one person's recommendations over another.

I think Melissa is correct in saying that I am going to need to do self experimentation and it may take several attempts/testing. It may take months or it may take years to get to the bottom of it. But in order to really be confident that whatever changes I make are working, I am gonna need a solid run of back to back labs showing improved and consistently healthier markers.

Here is a loose (and probably still dynamic) game plan so far.

Bolded item denotes "already implemented"...

  • Eliminate whey protein supplement

  • Donate Blood to reduce iron/metals

  • Excercise in fasted state

  • Take a 2 week break from working out.

  • Eliminate snacking between meals

  • Begin Vitamin K2 MK4 supplementation

  • Begin Guar Gum supplement (??**)

  • Reduce cream intake to one dollop in coffee only. (About 5oz per week total)

  • Reduce butter intake to nearly nil (somewhere between zero and 1 tbsp per day with zero as the norm)

  • Reduce cheese drastically

  • Reduce and nearly eliminate starches to VLC (I am soooooo on the fence about this one... arrrg!)

  • Increase grass fed beef intake

  • Reduce fruit (fructose) consumption drastically

  • Increase or eliminate coconut oil consumption (currently haven't had a drop of coconut oil since Travis's MCT post on Sept 20.) **

EDIT (added Oct 9):

  • Eliminate sweet potatoes completely and sharply reduce all other tubers. > My main reason for doing this is that oxalates may be playing a role particularly with the feeling that I don't like. I have never eaten sweet potatoes regularly in my life. I eat them ALL the time now. I have never had that odd feeling in my chest. I have it all the time now. Sometimes you gotta put 2 and 2 together like that even when so many other Paleos do so well on sweet potato.

  • Eat more scallops

Notes:

GUAR GUM - I took my first teaspoon of this last night. You stir powder into liquid. It was like drinking plasma. Very gross gel-like texture. But more importantly, I had a very bad headache immediately following the supplement (and I only drank HALF the cup... a half dose). So I am really not confident about the Guar Gum supp yet. I will take it again to see if the reaction was or was not connected.

COCONUT OIL - I haven't had any for over 2 weeks based on the Travis's theory, but given all the other changes I am making, I may add it back in for this round. The pulling reason for me to not only add it back in but increase is that I tested at 85 trigs back in Oct 2010 after 2 full months of daily coconut oil consumption. So as Travis mentioned in his post... if could be a combination of things, but that the coconut oil by itself wouldn't cause the high trigs/VLDL/sdLDL. In any case, if my numbers don't improve, I can always eliminate it for the next round to see if the MCTs are thwarting my quest.

Ok folks that's a lot of changes for now. Don't want to make too many at once, else we won't know what helped. I will let you know when I get retested :)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:54 PM

@Bill - out of curiosity... why do you say this will make it worse? What in particular are you referring to?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 08, 2011
at 12:25 AM

Cool. Thanks NP.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 08, 2011
at 05:21 AM

Zinc, D, A, K2 were all also part of that.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:48 PM

I don't know Bill. And I don't know when I'm gonna get ApoE NP. Every time I go get tested for things that people tell me to, I come back and share the results and people tell me I need to text for all kinds of new things. My last test I made the docs redraw the paperwork 4 times because I kept insisting that they add new things. I checked "Full Thyroid Cascade Panel" and it came back with TSH only. I insisted to my doc that I need my T and ApoE checked, and they said it was not necessary, so I have to call back again and fight for it. This is the reality of our healthcare system folks.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:51 PM

By the way... I was quoted at nearly $400 for ApoE, and after asking on multiple forums, I STILL #1 do not know if that's normal, and #2 do not know what my alternatives are. Google searching doesn't get me very far. Somebody else said they got theirs done for $100, so I suppose I will just assume that the extra $290 is the pad the lining of somebody's pockets and suck it up. I could buy a freezer full of grass fed beef for that.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 07, 2011
at 10:08 PM

Jack, for ApoE, I think the cheapest option is 23andme @$99 plus $9 x 12 = $207, unless your insurance is gonna cover it at your Cardy's urging through Labcorp, Quest, etc. As for Thyroid panel, I assume ur getting T/F T3/4 and Rev T3. That shouldn't be too bad at those mail order ones for under $100.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:40 PM

When are you gettting your ApoE tested that will tell whether you're indeed E4? I think the finetuning should wait until you have your E4 status?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 07, 2011
at 08:59 PM

Jack, divide the guar gum into smaller doses and take with food. It gave my pre-broth soups days a similar thickening. One teaspoon at once is real Clockwork Orange torture. I made it through entire pound of the stuff, but 1/4 teas. at a time!

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 07, 2011
at 09:43 PM

If low T3 and Testosterone is the reason your numbers are the way they are.... this is only going to make them worse. They may change for the better with the fructose and fat reductions... but in the long run those numbers will not improve. WHy haven't you gotten your T or T3 tested yet?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on October 08, 2011
at 05:20 AM

I really dont know specifics, but just that my labs improved, like yours, when I brought my T and thyroid up with iodine, selenium, and high carb low fat paleo.

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 15, 2011
at 09:00 AM

You didn't do ferittin, but it looks to me that you don't have iron problems. Its better to have lower iron without anemia. However, it could be a clue together with CRP and HDL.

HDL needs to be substantially higher, without CRP as if both are elevated it might signify chronic infection and autoimmunity. As suggested by some, use fish oil, non-sustained release Niacin (not flush free tho, it doesn't work) and LET technology CoQ10 (30-100mg).

Vitamin K2 is most important - calcium will finish on wrong places otherwise. Take some good supplement containing 100mcg K2 MQ7 (or MQ4).

You need higher Ascorbate. 3x0.5 is good for start but I would go for 4x2. There is some concern that it [all antioxidants] will reduce exercise adaptation but I think you have other concerns here and that research is inconclusive and probably wrong. Its best to take it with protein meal, if your iron is not to big. Do 6 months loading and then check it up. Cholesterol will change for sure. Use powder in magnesium mineral water.

Glucose is perfect.

TSH - in my experience it can differ a lot from day to day. I measured 2 days in a row and one day it was 2.4 the next day 1.4. I think its not that bad really. You fall in optimal range.

I don't agree with less nuts, less butter or cream and less honey [no honey, use Stevia or be a man, don't eat sweets, eat black chocolate].

Thx for sharing results, its always nice hacking logs :)

Can we get to hack the baby now ? :P

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Mk-4 is the sub he needs. For heart.....

2
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:04 AM

Not an answer to hack jack's tests per say, but if we have an athletic male with good fitness markers and no symptoms how helpful is it to micromanage these markers.

Is there enough evidence that Jack needs hacked? Can these current levels indicate a near optimal metabolic state in your case? Everyone recognizes the need to tweak their paleo template to their own tastes and goals, but without symptoms or overt reason should he really be stressing here?

In my view fitness markers good, you feel good, diets is clean, reduce stress = body will find homeostasis and be near about as optimal as possible for you.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:07 PM

NP - I seriously upped my starch intake. Been eating lots of sweet potatoes and potatoes. I also eat rice regularly. We all say that starch doesn't affect trigs in the same way fructose and sugar do. Maybe in my case it does.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Plenty of people feel great and are completely asymptomatic right up until they have a heart attack. This wouldn't happen to Jack anytime soon, but low HDL and high TGs should at some point be addressed.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:29 AM

@ Jack just read your response that you point to in comments to travis...I tend to agree with that. Perhaps the "normals" just don't apply, but I can surely understand your concern. @ Travis...of course the first sign/symptom of heart trouble can be a heart attack for many people. My mother being one of them. BUT, my mother also eats SAD, smokes, and doesn't exercise. Just saying, I would put more weight on a lifestyle questionnaire than lab results for an asymptomatic individual with otherwise terrific health markers, assuming the labs are not completely absurd.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 01:56 PM

Well, here seems to be the prolem. Jack's LDL is moderately high but I"m not really concerned about it. I'm more concerned about his 224 Trigs, which is usually a marker for avidly consuming processed carbohydrates. How could his Trigs be that high when he says he's on a whole foods star diet and cut back on his sugar (no more honey, bananas, and dried fruit). I'm not sure if Trigs are subject to Apo-EE status. My Trigs are 92, high for a Paleo guy but I'm doing 150g Paleo with all of my carbs coming from healthy starch (yams).

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:59 AM

Good points from both Jay and Travis here. I agree with the general idea of what Jay is saying. In fact, I say something similar in my "What if I stopped lifting for 3 months" comment in Travis' answer. But bottom line, I am not comfortable at all with 35 HDL vs 224 fasting trigs. That just ain't right.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:08 PM

Jack, I expect your trigs to be between 100-125. Your trigs would be higher than when most people do VLC (~50-70). But no way it will be 225: that's for someone with a serious snacking issue w/sugar and white flour. So your Trigs basically dictated your particle size: with Trigs that high, no way you will be type A.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 16, 2011
at 12:16 PM

No one feels great and has a heart attack, plenty of people pretend like they feel great but I guarantee they have some low level problem they ignore. At least that's my opinion.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 06:35 PM

yah I am done snacking. No more mid-meal nibbling for me.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on September 17, 2011
at 05:13 PM

I know this is waaay out there, but you don't take Ambien do you? I've known several people who have sleep driven and sleep eaten on it. The best Ambien story from my immediate circle was someone getting in a wrestling match with their Xmas tree with many amused roommates as witnesses. Just want to make sure you aren't out and about downing Big Gulps in your sleep.

7b91be6e22d4e2960f40935e306bdee5

(245)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Cliff - not true. I was 33, 5'9 155lbs exercised frequently and felt GREAT. Spent my 34th birthday in the hospital recovering from a Heart Attack. Here's a link to my story at MDA. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread34325.html And good luck Jack. I hope you get this figured out.

2
Ab19df3ededa28f7bf7daeba8435b205

on September 15, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Jack, did you insurance cover this? if not, can you say what all this cost you? if you dont mind?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 03:07 AM

Covered it except the VAP. If I get a huge bill in the mail because I was misled (I wouldn't be shocked) then I'll let you know.

2
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on September 14, 2011
at 11:39 PM

What's with the B Pertussis? You have Walt Whitman's whooping cough, Jack!

Aside from that, your labs do look better than the last time. I will mention however that your liver enzymes are moderately high for someone working out and leaning out. Perhaps its the vestige of your sugar-high days and it's on the way down also.

When I leaned out from 220 to 160, my livere enzymes fell from the mid 30s to the low teens. Now, I am always in the low teens for both AST and ALT, and my CRP Quant is always 0.3 and my body fat (measured w/calipers) is about 9%.

I am no clinicians but I tend to see the liver enzymes in the high-20s and above for those who like to snack with sugary and gluten stuff. Isn't that right, Quilt? Do you agree with the observation that Jack's should be between 10-15 for a hardcore Paleo guy working out 5 times a week?

Also, based on your exercise, your HDL should be above 60, based on your higher whole foods starch and less sugar diet, your trigs should be somewhat below but not by much. Your LDL particle size should be closer to A but there might not have been enuff time. It's probably still stuck in B but more closer to the right toward A.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:23 AM

And yes I would love to see my HDL above 60!! I have earned it based on my diet I can guarantee that, but I am not sure it's gonna jump by that much. With the increase in D from 44 to 58, more coconut oil, more red palm oil, more dark chocolate, more starch, and more working out, it BETTER be higher or someone's about to get a beat down cause I am sick of this 40 garbage. Hey even a 10% gain to 44 would be sorta nice. 20% to 48 would be even better.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:50 AM

I gradually raised my HDL from the mid 40s to the mid 60s by exercising (HIIT), fish oil (2 tsps), avocados (1 per day) and some dry red wine. Maybe not all of them are helpful. But I definitely think fish oil and exercising are. I did not find coconut oil to be of any help in HDL ups, however.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 12:22 AM

My older brother and I had whooping cough 14 years ago. I believe I still have the antibodies floating around in my blood. I haven't had a cough of any kind in a very long time. I am never sick. As for liver enzymes, not sure. But I am not in a danger zone. Probably what's normal for one cat my not be exactly normal for another. This would be the reason for the ranges on these readings instead of single cold numbers to hit.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 15, 2011
at 01:10 AM

yah i eat avocados regularly. red wine only occasionally, but I have been eating more dark and super dark chocolate lately (on purpose). oh and I seriously upped my egg intake too. forgot to mention that. I've been eating 3-4 eggs per day over the past couple months. All that yolk might play a role. I dunno. If these things don't boost my HDL, then it HAS to be related to what CMast and others talk about... thyroid/LDL receptor/genetics/FH... etc. Regardless, I am 31, and I hope that I at least have long enough to figure this out. With all of your help, we can learn some things from my case.

1
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:00 AM

Kronk,

I concur -- those baseline labs will be very helpful at elucidating what might be at the core... Thank you for the updates!

FYI -- this might be helpful as well... It breaks down the lab testing used by Kruse, me and other integrative practitioners to diagnose 'core' problems that lead to silent inflammation. Please send to your doc if needed. It explains a lot.
http://drhyman.com/downloads/HowToGetWhatYouNeed.pdf

Is the chest discomfort related to any foods that are not being digested? Is it reflux or regurgitation related? That is odd esp if it persists. http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/Gluten-Testing-by-Metametrix.html

For intestinal permeability (leaky gut) is below by Metametrix -- utilizing DNA PCR technology for buggers involved with small intestine overgrowth, SIBO, protein/fat/carb malabsorption, fermentation/putrefication, etc. http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/gi_effects_stool_analysis_profile.html

If testosterone and/or thyroid come back whacked... consider the below test (Robb Wolf has discussed -- google his blog 'training at 39' and/or 'paleo and testosterone'): http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/adrenal_stress_index.html

How about ferritin (repeat? was there a first?)? For the mildly elevated liver tests, have you considered a liver ultrasound (rule out NAFLD, fatty liver, iron damage)?

For the coronary CT -- it won't tell you degree of blockage like 20% v. 90%. It only quantifies the absolute amount of scar tissue, e.g. calcification, in affected vessels (one, two, three, etc). You'd have to recheck in 1-2 yrs to verify regression of coronary artery plaque (if there is). One value IMHO fails to provide a lot of meaning in the framework that since you started paleo, all western civ diseases have diminished/reversed/resolved... Let's say when you were overweight, 30 lbs heavier, there was plaque but since paleo, all the plaque is regressing. The trend is downward, but to verify EBCT needs to be repeated in 1-2 yrs. There is no reason why it wouldn't reverse as long as the HDL is trending upward.

For me, to save lettuce$$$$ the value is on tracking the HDLs as you are insightfully doing.

Also the older technology EBCT (electron beam) delivers only 3-4 chest xray equivalents of radiation compared with the fancier n-slice CT that delivers 400 chest xray equivalents of radiation... out of pocket costs range from $250-500 just FYI and the knowledge doesn't tell much until you repeat it in 1-2 yrs.

Sorry, don't mean to complicate things -- just for later to consider in your therapeutic plan and strategies... but I hope the Hyman resource helps to clarify! It is like a 'how to' synopsis...

-G

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Grace - the Rockwell Nutrition Metramix blood test looks like it might tell me something. I eat a lot of the foods on their list of 90. Also, the cortisol adrenal stress could be helpful too. The CT scan would probably come after these other tests. It could very well be that I don't have plaque buildup/calification at all... but then again, it's not just the feeling that I'm concerned about. It's the feeling combined with my labs that has me concerned. Remove one or the other from the equation, and my level of concern would tank. Thanks Grace.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:26 AM

@Grace: I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify *Escherichia coli* correctly in their promotional material. *E.coli* is not an obligate aerobe.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:48 AM

@Grace: A minor point - I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify Escherichia coli correctly in their sample lab report. E.coli is not an obligate aerobe.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:37 PM

Grace - the Rockwell Nutrition Metramix blood test looks like it might tell me something. I eat a lot of the foods on their list of 90. Also, the cortisol adrenal stress could be helpful too. The CT scan would probably come after these other tests. It could very well be that I don't have plaque buildup/calification at all... but then again, it's not just the feeling that I'm concerned about. It's the feeling combined within my labs that has me concerned. Remove one or the other from the equation, and my level of concern would tank.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 10:56 PM

Kronk, I see people get the heartscan then freak out. It has no value if the plaque is on its way out and even if its a triple or quad score, again, the vale is meanlingless to me in an aintinflammatory paleo framework.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:39 AM

@Grace: A minor point - I am a bit skeptical of the Metametrix Stool Analysis just for the fact that they fail to classify *Escherichia coli* correctly in their promotional material. *E.coli* is not an obligate aerobe. Mycobacteria sp. are also incorrectly classified obligate anaerobes.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 10:57 PM

The ASI is very useful. Dont underestimate this simple, cheap test. Adrenals are the foundation of good health!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:01 PM

Kronk, NOW u r more educated then 120% of all docs on diagnostics. ha aahahh!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on November 15, 2011
at 11:00 PM

The stool test offers insights into what is going on in the gut. Naturallynits limited by technology in that it cant sample the small intestines where all the damage from western civilizations diseases are mainlynoccurring. Matthew, thanks I didnt realize thst, will ck it out.

1
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:58 PM

My blog today may begin to help you think more clearly about what is really ailing you. I told you I wont give up on you til you get it. Your case will help many. You may not have seen it then or even now.....but it will I promise. Here is how I knew about your Vitamin K2 status described in detail. The best way is to measure your osteocalcin level but given what you initially posted I hacked you with out you knowing how I did it. That is part of clinical medicine and expertise. Many may not want it.....but I think you might find it interesting

http://jackkruse.com/how-to-find-your-inner-masterpiece/

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:28 PM

giving blood is a good thing too. I am glad to see your getting it now.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:51 PM

I use Thorne Research K2 drops for about $61 for (1 oz)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:30 PM

Your gut is killing you but your lifestyle is masking this. This is one time when a paleo lifestyle could be problematic for a doc. I think there are a lot of people like you out there. I think our old Buddy Tom Seay has the same issue.....but he went away.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:28 PM

30000mcg is 30 grams http://www.convertunits.com/from/mcg/to/mg

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:57 PM

Also, I will get some MK4 supp and begin taking it. Do you recommend a particular brand/type? Also, I am gonna go give away some blood to reduce iron.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:27 PM

DEx is that stuff a mix of is it subfraction MK4? Because the price of that is awesome when you break it out on a drop by drop basis. I may switch to it if it is MK4.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:26 PM

The NAC will help the glutathione.....but not so much if you are hypo methylator. The repeat HC level after dropping whey will tell us this.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 02, 2011
at 12:08 AM

I just ordered 2 bottles of the K2 MK4 and a 2 pack of guar gum from Source Naturals. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046S6UL0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GFSRUY&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0B2VQBHWVST6BMN0JCR8

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 03:55 PM

I just read through it. "mind bending biochemistry"... yes that is accurate. The good news is that I STRICTLY do low volume HIIT exercise, and lately I've been doing it fasted per Travis Culp's recommendation. Also, I do get my fair share of protein. I'm seriously considering dropping the whey protein, but something that concerns me is that it may be a great source of glutathione for me, and the stuff I take is cold processed and non-denatured. It's 26g per serving and very pure, but I will drop it if it may be causing leaky gut. what do you think? is that part of your 'drop dairy' suggestion?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Quilt - there is a supplement at my local farmers market that each tablet has 5,000 mcg of MK4. You recommend 20-30 mgs, so wouldn't that be 2,000-3,000 mcg. I could take half tablet daily for 2,500 mcg. Does this sound correct?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 02, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Thorne Research Vitamin K2 is MK4. 1 mg per drop. http://www.thorne.com/Products/Vitamins/prd~K170.jsp

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:50 PM

here is the bottle I am looking at buying. Looks like I would need 5 pills to get 25mgs: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Life-Menatetrenone-5000-Tablets/dp/B000VRWPPU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317512738&sr=8-1

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:25 PM

i would drop the whey......I would definitely add PQQ 20 mgs a day and I would make you take 1800 mgs of NAC a day too. I think if you get a new homocysteine level and its high I think the bottom of your hack is this.....your a hypo methylator. And I got a post coming up for you. If you read my supplement blog you can see I am a big B vitamin fan.......that methylator post will explain why. THe masterpiece post explains why PQQ is a monster add to a paleo lifestyle. I am not done with you yet. Good on the Guar gum. I feel your HDL rising!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 05, 2011
at 01:12 AM

You are going to see your hack payoff now....keep testing

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 04, 2011
at 02:23 PM

"i would drop the whey". Begrudgingly... I have decided to drop the whey completely.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Kronk, if you feel great NOW, when your gut is sealed, healed and working FOR YOU, not against you, then you will feel FANTA$*(#$&TIC!!!!!! Healing is an art, not a science. Traditionally trained docs don't understand. They are pill pushers and don't understand the integration of the mind/community/gut/brain axis... We are all one... the organs/body are all one.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Plus one grace.......

1
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on September 30, 2011
at 09:10 AM

Kronk, I replied again HERE. In E2/E2, trigs are quite high, constrasting with E4/E4, the trigs are typically low despite high carb intakes (and high 'death band' LDL-IVb subfractions). It wouldn't surprise me if the E alleles were E2/E4.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Melissa M suggested iron overload a while back too. My blood saturation was slightly elevated, and my clearance did come in below the lowest normal range, so there could definitely be something going on there. Also, that could be what is causing the odd feeling in my chest and heart area. Metal toxicity is a plausible idea, especially since I am so fit because weight issues are completely rulled out. I am checking out the latest post from vitalobjectives.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 05:56 PM

btw.. what are you referring to with #1-6? Maybe I missed something? And regarding the high GI potatoes, could I be eating too much starch? I have (for some reason) cut back on the tubers lately. Not really sure why. Just kinda of a knee jerk reaction borne from confusion.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:43 PM

THose who tend to do great on VLC/ketosis are those with bangin adrenals. They can fast and not get huge cortisol spikes... (these folks are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN). BTW if you stay with potatoes, try to do the low GI ones (red, Okinawan, etc) and organic. The GMO have lectins that appear to survive heat/cooking and lectins tear up the gut.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Grace! I didn't realize that was you! lol. Ok so I will donate blod, but that lady took 3 full viles when I did my last test because they were testing so many different things. Wouldn't that be just like giving blood sorta? Also, I didn't want to give the impression that I am cheap. I would spend 100x that amount if I knew it was going to help me. I'm all about investing in my health. I just don't want to *WASTE* money. Plus I've read that people get that ApoE testing done for like $100, so I just wasn't excited about overpaying.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:49 PM

Yes I totally concur with Quilt that a gut issues is likely at the center stage but it is easy to be ignorant because unless you have IBS you probably are asymptomatic like most individuals. COME ON! You look and feel absolutely shredded, ripped and GGGGGorgeous. So of course you are not thinking the gut?? Genova and Metametrix offer DNA stool analyses. I can order from Metametrix so let me know. Not familiar w/Genova's products but I think Quilty is. The cost is about $350 and I think it yields far more valuable data -- digestion capacity, degree of dysbiosis, putrefication, parasites, etc.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:31 AM

I let people keep doing what they like until their labs make them bang their heads pto the ground. Like i said long ago......this hack will help thousands. You have a classic leaky gut. Your liver is screaming for help.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:41 PM

THose phlebotovampires sure do drain people don't they??! Yes I know there are certain deals (like your $22 VAP test!!) out there. LEF will have certain months with a great discount, esp for hormone testing. Sorry!! I meant (a) through (e) not #1-6 (PH editing messes me up). Regarding starches, these can be your friend or foe... it depends on the context of your health status and goals. Personally I think the adrenals are the CRUX and apex from which all our health depends on, so its (a). Ketosis kills the adrenals! Therefore if you still have lingering or marginal adrenals, stay on carbs.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:53 PM

I'm relieved you are not blowing off metals... Personally I've had/having my own issues so after deep digging into the issues, I've realized it is a major issue for many (and perhaps more so for certain genetics, like apoE4 and possibly your father and sister). My kids have metals -- downloaded maternally from me and from their own dental mercury amalgams and the seafood we used to frequently consume. Metals may not be a prob for some but w/ genetics, maternal downloads and any degree of gut dysbiosis (our healthy microbes help eliminate metals) I don't think many can evade signif exposures.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:33 PM

Grace you can use ketosis to live well with great adrenals with this.....you must optimize Mg, CoQ10, Vitamin C in megadoses and not be a hypo methylator. Most people who say ketosis screws adrenals dont realize there is an underlying reason for it......those are the major ones. I think ketosis is a great way to live but few know how to be optimal in ketosis. Totally different optic.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 30, 2011
at 06:06 PM

Also, you wrote *"low level sepsis via leaky gut/SIBO/intestinal permeability"*. Do you think this could be at play here for me? I've been looking into "leaky gut" and honestly I am not really grasping exactly what that's all about. Dr K has been trumpeting that as a cause.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 02, 2011
at 03:35 PM

if metal testing came back screwed this points to a deficinecy in thiols.....so that means cysteine and that means we are back to the hypo methylation angle......see it all is tied together. JK we will solve this. Im a stoked your now willing to do what it will take.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 08, 2011
at 03:21 AM

Kruse, My prob is that I don't like taking a lot of stuff -- I want to take what works and that is it... game forward. At some point though the toxins cause a burden that can be overwhelming.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:08 PM

Grace foods can fix the metal problem and the hypo methylation issues. I do this daily for patients because 90% have a bad gut. Why i love what JK is doing is that he is a shredded paleo who has a great facade and is rotting from within based uppn labs. We have lots of paleo luminaries currently espousing some real interesting theories with NO TESTING. Well mr kronk is a classic example of why research papers dont cure people. You have to think and apply knowledge. I bet jack case gets some others of their high horse and really study WHY this happens. I bet there are shredded AHS folks

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:21 PM

(didn't help the adrenals either w/ levonorgestrel/progestin issues of birth control which caused an apparent high IR, dysbiosis and immunosuppressed state)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:10 PM

That have the same issues but are ignorant of them. Why do i say it? I have many paleo crossfitters/runners/professional athletes in his boat. I know it happens because i test. Six yrs ago i was in the dark and i decided to think about things differently

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:16 PM

'NO TESTING' = feedback deficits with lots of hubris and huffiness. What I see in the high carb explosion are a lot of VLC trials which failed miserably secondary to a combo of mineral depletion issues and and adrenal fatigue... Add to that neolethal factors that most paleo folks are completely ignorant or underestimate like environmental and dietary endocrine disruptors, estrogen dominance, massive cortisol/insulin cascades, heavy metals (esp among former vegetarians who eat/ate moderate 'healthy' fish). Mercury/tuna toxicity can lead to adrenal fatigue by various mechanisms.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:19 PM

BTW that's me -- VLC 20g carbs/day hurt my adrenals b/c they were already marginally functioning!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Jeremy Pivens and Daphne Zunigas come to mind!

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 11, 2011
at 12:07 PM

John, Waiting for your advanced adrenal 'reset' *haaa!* What's the timeline for oral chelation in most adult cases? I've heard 6 months? I'm half way through. The metals have killed the gut... Would love to see your detailed thoughts on oral chelation (like your adaptogens 1.0 post)! I'm working on a few blogposts but I'm still on a learning curve. Thanks, G

1
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 09:29 PM

Ok so I have gotten a wide variety of answers and input, which is great! Thank you all so much for hacking me. (Only on PaleoHacks does that make sense :P )

Ya'll know the basics of my diet. I eat at least 90% Paleo. My current definition of Paleo diet is pure whole natural real foods that are believed to be beneficial for humans to consume to get/remain fit and healthy. I've don't count macro ratios anymore but I would roughly estimate that I've been on an approximate 50F/30C/20P setup.

So that you all can get a good picture of what I eat, I will try to list it here in case this could help with the development of any potential hypotheses (as Travis put it) as to where I may need to make changes.

Keep in mind this is a "Hack Jack" thread. Not an "Attack Jack" thread. Those that know me know that I am not really thin skinned and can handle some advice, but at the same time, please consider that regardless of whatever I may be doing 'wrong', I would not categorize myself in the same camp as the vast majority of people who do not take great care in their personal dietary choices. I do take great care, perhaps to a ridiculous degree. I am not 100% strict Paleo, but many of my closest friends and family think I am fanatical, and perhaps I am.

What am I saying? I will be honest with you about what I doing and would love to hear any suggestions you have, but please do not think that chastising me is going to 'scare' me. I don't need to be freaked out so that I can finally 'take things seriously'. I need guidance because I DO take things seriously and whatever I am doing does not seem to be working in my particular case. Of course, my interest in figuring this out is primarily so that I don't develop some kind of heart condition at a young age. I also know that the closer we get to 'success' in figuring out what might be going on with me, the more we learn as a community that just might help a number of other folks as well. I didn't really sign up for this, but it is what it is, so I am just rollin with it and I am encouraged by and quite grateful for how many people care enough to help me get to the bottom of this and sort out what changes need to be made.

The foods/calories I consumed regularly during the 70 days between July 1 and Sept 9: (in no real order)

Eggs: 2-4 eggs per serving 5-6 days per week. always organic free roaming and mostly pastured from Vital Farms. I eat them fried or scrambled in coconut oil, or hard boiled.

Sweet potato or white/red/yukon gold potatoes: mostly sweet potato (yellow flesh). Always peeled. Usually fried over medium-low heat in a mix of coconut oil and ghee (1-2 tbsp each). Sometimes microwave baked. Average about one large tuber per day. Sometimes two.

Beef: I eat beef about 3-4 times per week. Roasts, Steaks, ground beef. Lots of beef-centered crockpot meals. Mostly grass fed, and all ground beef has been GF for a long time now.

Bacon: Applewood thick slices from Trader Joes. Usually have 3 pieces per serving about 3-4 times per week.

Coffee: 1 cup per weekday. Approx 2 tbsp of Clover Farms heavy cream with a pinch of pure stevia powder.

Pasture Butter: About 2 tbsp per day, usually on a microwaved baked potato at work or added to some kind of crockpot meal or mixed into hot rice. (not for added fat, but because I simply love butter).

Wild Sockeye Salmon: we bought a huge slab and cut it into pieces. I think I ate a baked salmon dinner maybe 5-6 times during this period.

White Rice: About 1 cup per serving, half the time with a spoon of butter. I eat rice about 3-4 times per week. We have also made rice flour muffins several times and white rice pasta several times.

Onions/Tomatoes/Peppers: This is a common thing in our fridge. We usually add this to breakfasts and/or dinners. Sometimes 'sauteed' in coconut oil.

Avocado: about 3-4 avos per week and have been doing so for years.

Strawberries and blueberries: Was buying regular, but switched to organic only about a month ago after posting my "dirty dozen" thread. I eat about a handful of one or the other daily.

Whey Protein Isolate: Bluebonnet brand. One 26g serving 5x per week.

Heavy Cream: Clover Farms or Trader Joes brand. Mostly just in coffee, but about once per week had berries and cream (about 1/4 cup) for breakfast. (this was versus 3-4 times per week of bananas and cream for breakfast previous to July 1).

Virgin Coconut Oil / GF Ghee: About equal amounts of each. These are my exclusive cooking oils. About 1-2 tbsp of each per day.

Red Palm Oil: 2-3 teaspoons 3-4 times per week.

Cheeses: Multiple kinds. Always pure inredients. Mostly expensive cheeses in block form. Average 2-3 oz of cheese daily.

GTs Kombucha: Various flavors. About 2-3 per week.

Mixed Salads: Had about 5-6 mixed salads in July/Aug. Never any bad oil dressing. Usually just lemon juice.

Chebe bread mix concoctions: These are gluten free made from tapioca starch. We bought some pizza mix and some cinnamon roll mix. Had various items from this maybe half a dozen times.

Dark Chocolate - Trader Joes: 72% to 85% - (No soy lecithin). I consumed about 4 dark chocolate bars during this 2 months. I was doing this on purpose to help raise HDL.

Raw Honey: Consumed between 8-12 oz during this time. (1 honey jar is 17oz)

Raw Whole Milk: from Organic Pastures. I consume about 1 quart per week.

>>>> The Occassional "Cheats" - (the 10%) <<<<

Chipotle: Ate this a few times during this period. Burrito bowl with rice and beef or carnitas, sour cream, cheese, salsa. No chips.

Pizza: Had pizza 4-5 times during this 70 day period.

Mini Beef Tacos at BJ's restaurant: Had these about 4 times during this period.

Microbrew beer: About 1-2 pints per week. Never more than 2 pints in any one week. Some weeks zero beer.

Peach Tea XS Energy Drink: (click for ingredient link) A questionable for sure, but I purchased a case of 24 of these because of the green and black tea content. The most glaring thing I don't like about it is the sucralose/ace k. The rest is mostly b vitamins and herbs, but it does have some niacin which I thought could be a good thing for HDL. Anyway.. I DID drink these and I said I'd be honest so ya'll should know, although I can't imagine this would have a negative effect on triglycerides. In fact, I thought it could be a positve but obviously it wasn't.

Side Notes:

  • I use a fair amount of sea salt and cracked pepper on my home cooked foods.

  • Most of my carbs came from Tubers, second from rice, third from fruit, fourth from honey/other sugars like Kombucha.

  • I split workout protein shakes about 50% pre / 50% post. Sometimes I would snack before working out so that I have better energy. I've noticed this does make a difference for me versus lifting fasted. I cannot rep as much in a fasted state.

  • I am guilty of snacking between meals. I basically eat when I'm hungry, and that is often. Although since getting these results, I have really curbed the snacking to virtually nil, as I suspect this may be a problem area for me.

  • I drink about 4-5 cups of water per day. Overall, I think I drink too little water.

  • Aside from the VitD content in the foods I eat, I have been getting it from direct sun exposure 3-5 times per week. I was on FCLO/HVBO, but I've been off that for several months now.

  • I get about 6 hours of sleep per night. About half the time I have trouble sleeping. I have been that way for many years (really since I was a kid). I usually go to bed at about 11pm and get up at 5am. On weekends, I often get more sleep than that but I am definitely not in a very set pattern for sleeping.

  • Previous to July 1st, I was regularly consuming raw soaked almonds/pecans/macadamias. I frequently made 'nut butter' and ate approx 2 tbsp per day, 5-6 days per week and sometimes ate the nuts whole. For July 1 - Sept 9, I consumed zero nuts and zero banana.

Ok folks. I think that covers the vast majority of it. This gives a pretty good picture of my dietary choices with some small notes thrown in for good measure.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:32 PM

It will kill your appetite or any desire to snack in between meals. My advice is to increase the fat until you get the hang of controlling your appetite. You can do moderate (100-150g carbs) Paleo w/bone broth which will give you the discipline. The carbs you're taking in (yams, sweet potatoes, rice) definitely whet your appetite and you'll want to cheat more. I know, becuz I went crazy w/Atkins bars and only learned to control my snacking after throwing the whole box out.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 AM

But I mentioned in another comment that it may be wise for me to go LC for a time. However, I need to go check out this new post from Travis and see what he's cookin up.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:25 PM

Here's what I'm noticing. I can't remember if you said you started out VLCing and how you fared in that regimen. But you seem to do considerable snacking. Whether you're snacking w/Paleo or nonPaleo items seems immaterial. The issue seems your appetite isn't under control. All the more since you seem to be, if any thing, moderate to high carb Paleo. Low-carb Paleo WILL control your appetite and eliminate your snacking habit. You may have gone Paleo, never quite learned to control your appetite, and substituted some fares w/high carb Paleo (sweet potatoes, rice), so ur always hungry.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:45 PM

Mmm, pork skins. Umm, where was I? Oh yeah, you might have liver damage, or just "problems" with the liver, I know that sounds vague. When triglycerides go that high oftentimes you can blame the liver. Your glucose is higher than it should be, and your iron-binding capacity is low, which means low transferrin, which is synthesized in the liver. So that is where I would look. That's just my guess, I know Quilty says that you are probably just adapting, but I suspect the liver.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:27 AM

Jack, after looking over your menu and seeing daily potatoes, white rice every other day, mixed with pizzas, tapioca, pizza mix, cinnamon roll mix breads, honey, chocolate, beer, burrito bowls and tacos and I'm really wondering why there is any mystery at all. As one who had screaming triglycerides for over 30 years and dropped them down to 67 in several months, I can tell you that you're eating now like I used to when I had all the problems. In the same 70 day period, I've had a half a serving of white rice and a scoop of Hagen Daz. That's it, except for half a grapfruit maybe twice a week.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 19, 2011
at 09:58 PM

do you take any supplements? if your frequently hungry why not just eat bigger meals?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:55 AM

Jack, this is what I have so far: http://paleohacks.com/questions/66154/medium-chain-fatty-acids-appear-to-raise-vldl-triglycerides#axzz1YPtpdqhI

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:09 PM

"WHO" is capitalized for emphasis only, not because I'm yelling at you Cliff :)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:40 PM

"then WHO here on Paleohacks is getting enough K2?" Only the people who supplement. None of those are reliable sources unless you have them tested to confirm they have K2 in sufficient quantities.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:54 PM

Yah ya know milk thistle really does help the liver.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:53 PM

Also, I would incorporate green tea (or chai tea or black tea for that matter). Tea is great for keeping your appetite under control. I start early afternoon and by the time I go to sleep, I've downed about a 1/2 gallon.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 19, 2011
at 11:32 PM

Namby Pamby - good stuff. We do make most of our crockpot concoctions with bone broth soup, although haven't been eating as much of that lately. I'll check out the pork rinds, but I can't imagine that I'd want to eat those every day. Regarding glucose levels, yes I know. It's the one glaring major change I made since my trigs were 85 and I am strongly considering going to LC Paleo (50g per day or less) to clear the trigs. If my liver is unhappy, wouldn't it be because of carbs? Maybe going VLC for 4 months made me unable to adapt to carb re-introduction?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:56 AM

Hi edrice. Yah I could see how that would seem so. My 30%C would need to hold its fair share of my diet to be true, and so it does. I was LC (50g per day or less) for several months and then raised it on purpose to about 150g per day.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:36 PM

Also, if you wanna snack, get pork rinds. They're great and they will also kill your appetite. Get these kinds, which are basically fried pork skins with only salt added. http://www.fritolay.com/our-snacks/baken-ets-traditional.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:06 PM

CoonMurderer - sorry bud I saw that comment was from you but I didn't acknowledge you directly. Bad on me. I think my liver is definitely not happy with what I'm doing, and I'm probably overworking the poor sucker. I did have slightly low iron binding and slightly highish iron saturation in my blood (but nothing too alarming).

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:52 PM

maybe you do get k2 but the supplement is so cheap so no harm in supping. I've always suspected stuff like KG might not be that high in k2 and apparently the quilt tested it recently at it had Non-Detectable levels. Getting adequate potassium and magnesium will also help imo, right now your getting pretty suboptimal amounts of both. I also don't see any liver in your menu which pretty much guarantees your not getting enough vit A imo. Like travis suggest you should also probably supp zinc, iodine and selenium.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:32 PM

I am taking a wild guess here, but I think that you might have a mineral absorption problem. Your iron is low, but it shouldn't be low. Your serum magnesium is normal, but serum magnesium isn't actually a great marker for total body magnesium. Moving forward I would focus on gut health. Bone broths/gelatin/amino acid sups and probiotic foods/supplements, spices, good types of fiber unless they make you feel bad. I might try supplementing magnesium and a bit of copper just to see if it works, but my main concern is the gut.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:58 PM

Mwahaha, I snuck in all raccoon-sneaky-like and impersonated Namby Pamby except with my own advice. It was brilliant, and you fell for it, Jack. Mwahahaha. *stab stab* Good fun, yes?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 19, 2011
at 10:28 PM

I'm not saying u should go Low-carb Paleo, since after all I'm doing moderate-carb Paleo. But when I started adding carbs, it was after I lost all my flab, when my appetite was strictly under control, and when I was suffering from low-carb symptoms (constipation, lack of moisture, fungal toes). You do seem to need a little bit of that: in other words, more fat that will control your appetite. You need BONE BROTH. It will control your appetite in a jiffy, I swear. Learn how to brew bone broth from marrow bones on weekends. I cook a pot-full on Sunday and it lasts mea whole week.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:49 PM

Do you take supplements? track your nutrition in cronometer?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:25 PM

i didn't say that, i just stated that the items you eat might not be as reliable of a source as you think. If I were you I would make sure I was getting more than adequate intake of all nutrients. This basically means supping k2, mag, selenium, iodine and A if you don't eat liver. Lowering your carbs is just gonna give you less nutrition, maybe it makes your trigs go lower but its not curing the actual problem and is just a bandaid.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 AM

On days I have rice, I usually don't have much potato. The other items mixed in there filled in days for me. So sure I had those Chebe mixes, and a beer, but numbers don't lie, and if you add up what I was eating day in and day out, it falls in range. My diet is not perfect, but these choices of honey and a single square of dark chocolate and gluten free bread mix are intentional so as not to eat the bad stuff. My carb choices are at least much less toxic than so many alternatives.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:00 PM

I did a rough estimate of your above diet and you come up short in mag and potassium. If you don't supplement k2 theirs probably a good chance your not getting very much.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:07 PM

And I dunno bout this K2 thing (from Cliff and Quilt). I am struggling with it. I don't understand why you are pegging me of all people to be K2 deficient. I agree that we don't know the exact levels in the foods, but can we also agree that I am at least eating all the foods that are believed to have the highest levels, whatever they might be? Is there some underlying reason why you suspect a K2 deficiency? What benefit do you think I would see from supping? I ask not antagonistcally, but out of geniune confusion.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:07 PM

*"If you don't supplement k2 theirs probably a good chance your not getting very much"*... ok so if I am not getting enough K2 by eating GF butter, GF cheese, GF milk, GF beef, GF Ghee... then WHO here on Paleohacks is getting enough K2? Is everyone supplementing? I don't understand. I thought most of us got K2 from some combination of the above items. I know we are not eating Natto!!!!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:52 PM

then 99%+ of humans in this world must be K2 deficient, because I bet less than 1% of people supplement with K2.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:17 PM

Aww, looks like I have to up my game. Next time I will get ya! Nyaa. Anyway, you might try a short episode of milk thistle supplementation. It will regenerate glutathione in your liver and bolster its defenses, and than after a few weeks you can stop taking it and enjoy the improvement. Just something to think about. That's one herb that is extensively studied.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:29 AM

It to you. You'd be easynto fix if you were not so headstrong. You need to do a serious three month change and retest. And yes.....guar gum would be in my plans for you too.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:12 AM

I recently read that dairy proteins can contribute to leaky gut. Is that why? Then maybe it's the whey protein isolates I take. Because butter and ghee don't have the proteins.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on October 01, 2011
at 02:05 PM

The casein in A1 dairy is immunogenic like gluten in wheat (which is U.S dairy -- Europe has A2 which is less immunogenic. Human, goat and sheep dairy is A2). Butter has casein but ghee has the protein including casein all cheesecloth filtered out. If you did the Whole9 or Robb Wolf/Mat LaLonde's autoimmune protocol for a month, dairy would be 100% eliminated. I agree with you, Trigs of 85 last Oct are awesome, but I dunno why HDLs are not a little better considering your conditioning, musculature and dramatic fat recomposition. Your family history gives pause.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 01, 2011
at 11:09 AM

what is the real reason for a full dairy cut Quilt? Why is dairy causing these problems? Is it the proteins? The palmitic acid? The insulinogenic effects? Is it because you believe dairy is an unhealthy food in general? Why do I ask all these things? Because I am a stubborn ass and just want to fool around here? Ooooor could it be that it confuses me because on plenty of butter and cream and whey protein I lost weight, got ripped, and had 85 trigs last Oct. I'll admit that my HDL was low even then though. So is that why? Because it blocks HDL increase? Why quit dairy?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 01, 2011
at 01:27 AM

Why? You have a classis leaky gut with a shitty hdl and you eat too many things that are hurting your gut. You need a fully dairy cut and i would put you on 20-30 mgs of k2 mk-4 version (and imwould test your osteocalcin to prove to you i am right). I would also introduce you to coconut oil and lots of it. And i would eliminate manynof the carbs your eating and make you eat a ton of grass fed meat from a crock pot. I maximize your D, your T, your DHEA and progesterone because they all suck.....even without labs. I know they are bad looking at what you got done somfar. But id test to prov

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 01, 2011
at 05:25 PM

Jack, I have leaky gut and I'm definitely allergic to dairy. I didn't think so but I became convinced after avoidance / provocation. I would listen to Dr K on this. You're on your way to becoming autoimmune at the rate you're going. I would cut out dairy now.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:25 AM

Jk. Be a skeptic....then re check in three months. This is going to show you how you really work.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:02 PM

By the way milk thistle = sillymarin.....and artichokes are loaded with this....and quercetin too which is a brain gut nootropic. So eat artichokes dude. The stuff is in the leaf not the heart either

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on October 10, 2011
at 10:37 PM

I LOVE artichokes. I raerly eat them though. Any excuse to eat artichokes will work for me.

1
7f2a21bd9f9ef81db6d8217316e0b40a

on September 17, 2011
at 04:49 PM

A couple suggestions probably not relevant to your issue, but thought I'd throw them out there just in case helpful.

I didn't notice anything about alcohol consumption. I'd make sure its minimal for troubleshooting purposes. I'm suspicious of alcohol/fructose-fatty liver-strange blood lipid connections.

Didn't notice homocysteine level either, may want to get it tested if not already. Anyone eating paleo and a lot of meat will probably have issues here, especially if not going out of way for folate (liver). At least my levels were high. And I find myself wondering if vascular damage caused by high homocysteine can lead to high lipids for repair.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 02:09 AM

I would also be curious about Jack's uric acid numbers. They tend to be high if he's been loading up on fructose. I am a gout sufferer and even though I have excellent liver enzymes, low inflammation (CRP, Westgren), high HDL and moderate trigs (92), I still have high-normal uric acid. Never out of the range but always high normal: >6.5

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 18, 2011
at 06:42 AM

Namby: How much vitamin C do you take?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 17, 2011
at 06:17 PM

I have an occasional microbrew if I go out to a sit down restaurant. Maybe once a week. Sometimes once every 2 weeks. No alcohol in the house. Interesting about Homocysteine. I've never considered that.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on September 18, 2011
at 04:21 PM

I take 500mg since I assume I'm getting plenty from my veggies and starch.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 08, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Homocysteine is going to be up with his labs posted for sure.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 11:49 PM

You eat a lot of fat. This is why your TG's are high.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 11:52 PM

Please try again.

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