4

votes

Is ascorbic acid not vitamin C?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 03, 2011 at 10:07 PM

In the slow wound healing question Lindsay claims ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, and we need sodium ascorbate a salt of ascorbic acid [Moderator's Note: the questioner has taken Lindsay's remarks out of context and has only dealt with a small part of an extensive answer and comments. Refer to the original post for full remarks and context.]. But you could just make sodium ascorbate by mixing ascorbic acid and baking soda in water. So what's the difference between doing that and just eating ascorbic acid?

[Moderator's Addendum: what about the larger question about whether we need "C-complex" and not just ascorbic acid or ascorbate?]

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 24, 2011
at 06:30 AM

See copper at http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24527&sid=f53b99386835fc46b028b4a92c58d57b#p24527. In short, its not a concern, since its still in normal levels. On empty stomach it is well tolerated in mineral. BTW, glucose competes with 1 type of receptor, the other kind will still absorb. Its more problem with smaller C doses

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 11:13 PM

One other question I have is when you take the vitamin C. I've seen studies where it negatively impacted copper absorption (probably as a result of maximizing iron absorption), so you don't want to take it with meat. And since it competes with glucose, you don't want it with starch. You're left with taking it on an empty stomach, which many cannot tolerate. Is there a form of it that is most likely to be tolerated on an empty stomach but which still has fairly good bioavailability?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:10 PM

I edited the post to address some Lindsay claims.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:09 PM

It doesn't have higher priority, there is simply more of it. Also, GLUT transporters passively transport C. Active transport in digestive system includes SVCT transport which isn't competitive with glucose. However, brain uses only GLUT to import C and humans are using the most of it.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:02 PM

Glucose has a higher priority, but I'm sure some vitamin C is absorbed, otherwise there would simply be no way for the great apes to get it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:54 PM

My opinion is that its if not worthless, then simply marginally important. Its definitely better then not taking it. Is it enough for optimal health ? No. BTW, sugar in fruit will prevent absorption of vitamin C.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:47 PM

You make some great points, but one thing you've said elsewhere is that an ascorbic acid tablet is "worthless" but I've seen balance studies where they have used that form, so it must be at least somewhat bioavailable. Powders are just too disgusting for me and I'd like to supplement the not inconsiderable amount I get from fruit, so it'd be nice it a tablet was actually worthwhile.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 03, 2011
at 10:46 PM

Yea she says whole food powder is best, but sodium ascorbate is a good substitute. Seems like we have studies on vitamin C as ascorbic acid working...

  • E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

    asked by

    (12857)
  • Views
    7.6K
  • Last Activity
    1260D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

6 Answers

best answer

6
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 07:48 PM

There is no such thing as vitamin C complex. The reason is that almost all animals make vitamin C in the kidney/liver and animals don't make misterious other parts of the complex. One of the reasons for this is that vitamin C is needed to make collagen which defines stroma for animal and makes around 35% of all proteins in the animal body. Plants on the other hand use cellulose for structure and they don't need C to make it.

The bioflavonoids which usually accompanies vitamin C in plants (vitamin P) and other substances like flavonols may promote absorption of C or be in synergy.

C is essential for wound healing. Some people can't heal the wound after operation and that is related to vitamin C deficiency.

Lindsy is wrong. Who knows what are her sources But lets take it 1 by 1:

Cancer thrives on glucose and ascorbic acid.

Cancer thrives on glucose and it may thrive on anything normal body cell thrive. Vitamin C is used to kill cancer as chemotheraphy at Riordan's clinick and drug named Apatone is now in testing containing 5g Vitamin C and 50mg Vitamin K3. Intervenous Vitamin C was used by Pauling and Cameron to threat cancer patients and prolong their lives 30 yeas ago... The results are repeated multiple times. For instance see "Changes of Terminal Cancer Patients' Health-related Quality of Life after High Dose Vitamin C Administration" from 2007.

Ascorbic acid is excreted via the kidneys in 24 hours.

Its dehydroascorbate acid and it works like that with all animals. Goat makes 100g or more in times of stress and excretes all of it loosing precious food by doing so (as C is made from glucose). Also, AA is not excreted by kidney if it drops bellow certain level.

Ascorbic Acid has mistakenly been called Vitamin C - it is actually a liver
metabolite rather than a vitamin

Its not liver metabolite. Its product of GULO gene. All the research ever done used AA, not "Vitamin C Complex".

It is produced in large quantities in almost all animals, e.g. 6 grams a day in a goat, or up to 100grams daily if the goat is stressed. But it is not Ascorbic Acid that our body requires

Hmm... it works with almost ALL animals in the world except us ? Thats strange.

Five hundred mgs. of ascorbic acid daily can damage genetic material (DNA)

So goat choose to poison her self ? DNA is the same molecule for all life. Also, the research paper she referred to was later retracted. This misinformation arose from a UK-based group who got a letter published in the USA journal Science (was not peer reviewed) based on a test tube experiment. The retraction received little publicity.

Years of research have demonstrated that when any portion of a vitamin is separated from its naturally occurring collective, cooperative complex, including trace mineral activators, and reduced to an isolated purified state, the vitamin activity has been lost.

There is no such thing. Patients on Total Parietal Nutrition would die from scurvy otherwise.


There is actually no such dilemma among scientist. Few books and 'naturalists' promote such idea probably for selling reasons. While there is no doubt that Vitamin P works in synergy with vitamin C, its not part of the "complex" nor it is required for correct functioning of vitamin C.

Also , take a look at vitamincfoundation official stance. Pauling (who was taking 18g/day) also addressed this question. Now, who are you going to believe ? The man with 2 Nobel prises which was by the way beside the bad of Albert Szent Georgi when he was dying or some unkown quack ?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:10 PM

I edited the post to address some Lindsay claims.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:54 PM

My opinion is that its if not worthless, then simply marginally important. Its definitely better then not taking it. Is it enough for optimal health ? No. BTW, sugar in fruit will prevent absorption of vitamin C.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:47 PM

You make some great points, but one thing you've said elsewhere is that an ascorbic acid tablet is "worthless" but I've seen balance studies where they have used that form, so it must be at least somewhat bioavailable. Powders are just too disgusting for me and I'd like to supplement the not inconsiderable amount I get from fruit, so it'd be nice it a tablet was actually worthwhile.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:09 PM

It doesn't have higher priority, there is simply more of it. Also, GLUT transporters passively transport C. Active transport in digestive system includes SVCT transport which isn't competitive with glucose. However, brain uses only GLUT to import C and humans are using the most of it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 24, 2011
at 06:30 AM

See copper at http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24527&sid=f53b99386835fc46b028b4a92c58d57b#p24527. In short, its not a concern, since its still in normal levels. On empty stomach it is well tolerated in mineral. BTW, glucose competes with 1 type of receptor, the other kind will still absorb. Its more problem with smaller C doses

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 10:02 PM

Glucose has a higher priority, but I'm sure some vitamin C is absorbed, otherwise there would simply be no way for the great apes to get it.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on September 23, 2011
at 11:13 PM

One other question I have is when you take the vitamin C. I've seen studies where it negatively impacted copper absorption (probably as a result of maximizing iron absorption), so you don't want to take it with meat. And since it competes with glucose, you don't want it with starch. You're left with taking it on an empty stomach, which many cannot tolerate. Is there a form of it that is most likely to be tolerated on an empty stomach but which still has fairly good bioavailability?

4
Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

on July 03, 2011
at 11:03 PM

Ascorbic acid is one form of vitamin C. It's been shown to reduce redness from sundamage, promote collagen synthesis, act as a lightener and reduce severity and duration of herpes simplex outbreaks.

Does it improve wound healing speed in general? I don't know, but I do know that deficiency of vitamin c will slow wound healing, so bringing up tissue levels to saturation will bring wound healing speed up to....normal?

Sundamage causes some changes that could result in slowed wound healing and we know that topical ascorbic acid absolutely reduces sundamage and via that mechanism could help speed wound healing.

Typically though, ime, slow wound healing is most often about zinc deficiency, then A deficiency, then ascorbic acid deficiency....then other nutrient deficiencies.

google scholar results for "topical ascorbic acid" will give you much good information: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&safe=active&q=topical+ascorbic+acid&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1174&bih=680&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws

Topical L???Ascorbic Acid: Percutaneous Absorption Studies

Topical treatment of recurrent mucocutaneous herpes with ascorbic acid-containing solution

1
782cd63ad3b881a1f195e8520e2808be

on January 02, 2012
at 07:41 PM

Interesting thread. Here's more from The Doctor Whithin: http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/vitaminc/ascorbic-acid-is-not-vitamin-c/

"OK, natural vs. synthetic. Let???s start with Vitamin C. Most sources equate vitamin C with ascorbic acid, as though they were the same thing. They???re not. Ascorbic acid is an isolate, a fraction, a distillate of naturally occurring vitamin C. In addition to ascorbic acid, vitamin C must include rutin, bioflavonoids, Factor K, Factor J, Factor P, Tyrosinase, Ascorbinogen, and other components as shown in the figure below:

ascorbinogen

???bioflavonoids

???rutin

tyrosinase

Factor J

???Factor K

???Factor P

In addition, mineral co-factors must be available in proper amounts.

If any of these parts are missing, there is no vitamin C, no vitamin activity. When some of them are present, the body will draw on its own stores to make up the differences, so that the whole vitamin may be present. Only then will vitamin activity take place, provided that all other conditions and co-factors are present. Ascorbic acid is described merely as the ???antioxidant wrapper??? portion of vitamin C; ascorbic acid protects the functional parts of the vitamin from rapid oxidation or breakdown. (Somer p 58 ???Vitamin C: A Lesson in Keeping An Open Mind??? The Nutrition Report)

Over 90% of ascorbic acid in this country is manufactured at a facility in Nutley, New Jersey, owned by Hoffman-LaRoche, one of the world???s biggest drug manufacturers (1 800 526 0189). Here ascorbic acid is made from a process involving cornstarch and volatile acids. Most U.S. vitamin companies then buy the bulk ascorbic acid from this single facility. After that, marketing takes over. Each company makes its own labels, its own claims, and its own formulations, each one claiming to have the superior form of vitamin C, even though it all came from the same place, and it???s really not vitamin C at all.

Ascorbic acid simply cannot confer vitamin activity, as taught by the discoverer of vitamin C himself, another Nobel Prize laureate, Dr. Albert Szent-Georgi.

Szent-Georgi discovered vitamin C in 1937. In all his research however, Szent-Georgi found that he could never cure scurvy with the isolated ascorbic acid itself. Realizing that he could always cure scurvy with the ???impure??? vitamin C found in simple foods, Szent-Georgi discovered that other factors had to be at work in order for vitamin activity to take place. So he returned to the laboratory and eventually made the discovery of another member of the vitamin C complex, as shown in the diagram above: rutin. All the factors in the complex, as Royal Lee and Dr. Szent-Georgi both came to understand, ascorbic acid, rutin, and the other factors, were synergists: co-factors which together sparked the ???functional interdependence of biologically related nutrient factors.??? (Empty Harvest p120) The term ???wheels within wheels??? was used to describe the interplay of co-factors."

0
56777d5173b8659af554a5c1e10884cd

on April 05, 2012
at 04:44 PM

Vitamin C Biosynthesis in different species

In response to "Hmm... it works with almost ALL animals in the world except us ? Thats strange."

Humans are one of only a few plants and animals that cannot produce their own Vitamin C, and that is due to a change in a liver gene in our distant past. Some say this happened about the time of the great flood, but there are also other variations of the timing. Whatever the timing or the reason, consider the benefit that would occur now by having the ability to be able to reduce our blood sugar levels to get what is a critical factor in our lives.

Wikipedia has an excellent article on Vitamin C Biosynthesis in different species at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

0
4e184df9c1ed38f61febc5d6cf031921

(5005)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:18 AM

Thanks for that! I've just bought some camu camu tablets fro eBay - hope it works!

-1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:50 AM

In the 1950???s Natural Vit C was deemed too expensive to produce and since then Synthetic Vit C has taken over the industry. Now China is producing 90% of the worlds Vit C production with a cheaper new two step process utilizing genetically modified organisms (see bottom of page) Finally we have a cost effective alternative with the discovery of Camu Camu which grows wild in the Amazon river plains and has so much natural vitamin C that it is a cost effective way of getting the highest quality natural vitamin C complex.

Much has been published about the benefits of Vitamin C supplementation and the need for daily intake to maintain superior health. Scientists know that a lack of daily Vitamin C results in the symptoms of scurvy ??? basically a breakdown of connective tissue and cellular function leading to death. Humans don???t produce their own Vitamin C so we are reliant on a daily source to stay alive. In fact, many scientists believe we don???t get anywhere near enough Vitamin C compared to our closest ancestor, the great ape. They suggest that while the minimum recommended daily allowance is enough to keep us alive and free from the symptoms of scurvy, it???s not enough for optimum health. Most people don???t realise that much of today???s Vitamin C supplements are chemically synthesized molecules often made with GMO???s and genetically modified corn starch. Over 90% of the worlds Vitamin C is now produced in China. These cheap laboratory produced products do not contain the many benefits of 100% natural Vitamin C complex.

If you are an advocate of Vitamin C for enhanced health we suggest you try to get as much Vitamin C from your diet as you can, by eating lots of wholefoods (fruit and vegetables). Secondly, supplement with natural Vitamin C complex only. Although the chemical structure of the ascorbic acid molecule in natural and synthetic vit c are identical some scientists believe that the natural Vitamin C complex is more effective than synthetic Vitamin C in protecting your health ??? largely because it is in a complex form with flavanoids and other synergistic nutrients attached which enhance its effectiveness at maintaining health and provide other additional nutritional benefits.

Camu Camu fruit grow in the river deltas of the Peruvian and Brazilian Amazon Rainforest and is the highest documented source of natural Vitamin C in the plant kingdom. In addition to Vitamin C, Camu Camu also contains a wide range of other nutrients necessary for maintaining good Health. Compared to Oranges, Camu Camu contains 50 times more Vitamin C, 3 times more niacin, 10 times more iron, double the amount of riboflavin, and 50% more Phosphorus. Camu Camu also contains high amounts of potassium and a wide range of amino acids and minerals. The synergy of all these nutrients make the Vitamin C in Camu Camu easily absorbed in the way nature designed - to support your health.

Comparison of Vitamin C content of Camu Camu vs. other fruits

Camu Camu - 2800mg/100g

Blackcurrant - 200mg/100g

Kiwi Fruit - 90mg/100g

Strawberry - 60mg/100g

Orange - 50mg/100g

Lime - 30mg/100g

Blueberry - 10mg/100g

Apple - 6mg/100g

We suggest you add a teaspoon of Camu Camu concentrated powder (4:1 concentrate) to your green drink, smoothie or fruit juice daily to top up on this essential nutrient.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!