1

votes

"News" about vegetarianism?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 30, 2013 at 9:19 PM

What's your opinion on "news" such as this one:

http://www.channel4.com/news/vegetarian-diet-reduces-heart-disease-risk-by-up-to-a-third

And what about the study they mention? Does anyone know anything about it?

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 11:48 PM

I stand corrected. Thanks for the life lesson.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:50 PM

@Matt - I think comparing diets should be ok.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:50 PM

Rereading your original comment (and from your downvote), it's clear to me that my question stressed you. Since you agreed that my question wasn't unrelated to paleo, I suggest you don't click on questions that you aren't interested in, instead of suggesting they shouldn't have been asked. Despite your complaint, you ended up participating on the topic anyway, and I agree with your later opinions.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

@Matt - I think comparing diets should be ok.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

Rereading your original comment, it's clear to me that my question stressed you. Since you agreed that my question wasn't unrelated to paleo, I suggest you don't click on questions that you aren't interested in, instead of suggesting they shouldn't have been asked. Despite your complaint, you ended up participating on the topic anyway, and I agree with your later opinions.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

My purpose with my original question was to see if anyone else here (besides me) feels bothered by the campaign for people to stop eating meat. Even if the feedback may be what I expect, I could still be surprised (as I was a bit) with some comments. Also, I wanted to read opinions about the study from a paleo point of view.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 04:47 PM

Exactly. Like Dr. William Davis (Wheat Belly) says: just because filtered cigarettes are better for you than unfiltered doesn't mean they're *good* for you. (And no, I'm not comparing vegetarian diets to cigarettes. I'm only making a point. I think carefully constructed vegetarian diets can be *much* better for health than the SAD. But PH is not a forum about the SAD.)

1398eff69b192c35de5e0dbaad59052a

(2024)

on February 01, 2013
at 04:01 PM

Actually, I saw that study, and was curious what the response here would be.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on February 01, 2013
at 03:32 PM

Because people like pitting paleo against vegan diets. Not a fair comparison, paleo is not anti-vegan per se.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:18 PM

they compare a vegetarian diet vs SAD vs American Heart Association endorsed diet vs Mediterranean vs Paleo. Be able to control as many variables (sleep, exercise, etc) as possible so that benefits can be ascribed to diet alone as much as possible. I'm not saying studies like this are irrelevant on a Paleo board, but what is your purpose in asking your original question? Is it to help you find logical and compelling arguments in support of eating meat if/when vegetarians you know present you with articles and studies?

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:15 PM

Start exercising, take certain supplements, and make other lifestyle changes that also influence their health. To say they're healthier *only* because they don't eat meat is disingenuous. I'd prefer to see the health of long-time vegetarians (10-15+ years) compared to people following clean Paleo or even WAPF-type diets, rather than compared to diets that include fast food, way too much veg & seed oil, tons of sugar and other refined carbohydrates. Robb Wolf has been pushing for this for a while: a metabolic ward study where...con't

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:12 PM

I didn't say it wasn't related to Paleo. I guess my question is what do you *expect* people on a Paleo-themed site to say about studies that show vegetarian and/or vegan diets to be more healthful than diets that include animal flesh and fats? These studies usually compare vegetarian diets to the SAD -- *of course* some of the biomarkers in the vegetarians are better. They don't usually *only* exclude meat. Ppl who go vegetarian for reasons other than animal rights/emotion are usually more concerned with health overall. Sometimes they ALSO: quit smoking, drink less...con't

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on January 31, 2013
at 09:56 PM

I posted it because it compares people who eat meat to those who don't. You don't see how that's related to paleo?

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 30, 2013
at 09:44 PM

The whole article is suspect in that regard!

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on January 30, 2013
at 09:20 PM

LIES LIES LIES LIES

  • D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

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7 Answers

best answer

8
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 30, 2013
at 09:55 PM

Here's the study:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2013/01/30/ajcn.112.044073.abstract?sid=79c50832-5428-4f5e-ab4a-6356c122c676

It was part of the Epic-Oxford study, an epidemiological study which has already reported decreased risk of heart disease in vegetarians, but no difference in total mortality. So they found that vegetarians die just as much, just less often heart attacks. The same is probably true of this study.

Also correlation doesn't imply causation, vegetarians often have healthier habits, blah blah blah, you get the idea.

5
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on January 30, 2013
at 09:38 PM

I like the part where there's no actual study or experiment cited at that link or in the story.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 30, 2013
at 09:44 PM

The whole article is suspect in that regard!

3
Ed7403e397077dd1acdbf25c7f6e56ce

on February 01, 2013
at 02:42 PM

You have to remember that the measure is against SAD. There's no doubt that vegetarians are healthier than most people. That's all this is saying.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 04:47 PM

Exactly. Like Dr. William Davis (Wheat Belly) says: just because filtered cigarettes are better for you than unfiltered doesn't mean they're *good* for you. (And no, I'm not comparing vegetarian diets to cigarettes. I'm only making a point. I think carefully constructed vegetarian diets can be *much* better for health than the SAD. But PH is not a forum about the SAD.)

3
7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

on January 31, 2013
at 05:50 PM

The problem with studies like this is they equate meat eating to visiting mcdonalds every night

2
748480b775b59092f4a90d3d06464dcf

on January 31, 2013
at 06:17 PM

I am skeptical of this study, to say the least. First, it is really hard find strict long term vegetarians in the western world. I am not saying the people in this study were not considered vegetarians but there is no way to check to see how strict of a vegetarian diet they were on through out those 11 years. The best way of controlling this is to go to a population were a vegetarian diet is ingrained in them because of religious reason.... India. This study I linked to at the bottom finds the exact opposite. Vegetarians are at higher risk of coronary artery disease compared to non-vegetarians. I trust this study more for several reasons. One, you can be fairly confident that they were truly vegetarians. Also, the difference between the vegetarian diet and non-vegetarian diet in India is really just the meat. The culture is poorer so they do not have access to a wide variety of food. So, you really are doing a much better job of controlling for everything else. In the western world there is a huge variety of diets and these were not really controlled for in this study. Another big reason is people for the most part do it for religious reasons. Not so in the western world. Most justify it on health grounds. When you do it for this reason, you are more likely to eat a healthier diet than the control population which I think is the real reason that they had the lower risk of heart disease. I think they were comparing a healthy vegetarian diet to the average, high trans fat, high refined sugar, highly processed western diet. This does not prove that eating meat increases the risk of heart disease, necessarily. Granite, neither does the Indian study...necessarily, but there are a lot more variables that needed to be controlled for in the UK study than the India one. These things are naturally controlled for in the India study much more just because the diets between vegetarian and non vegetarian in India is pretty much the same. Non-vegetarians just throw meat in to their dishes instead of garbanzo beans, paneer or whatever. I find it very odd too that they controlled for things such as education (???), but did not control for anything as far as food!!! Besides, numerous studies have proven that the majority of vegetarians have B12 deficiencies. B12 usable by the body comes form animals only. B12 increases homocysteine levels which is associate with all sorts of heath problems, including increased risk of CAD. Cutting something out of your diet that reduces the risk of heart disease to reduce your risk of heart disease makes no sense from an evolutionary perspective. There is something else going on in this study and what I was saying above is most likely the explanation. Along with that, these statistics in the UK study were stated for people 50 to 70. Going on a vegetarian diet when you are sixty and then claiming that your lower risk of CAD was because you stopped eating meat, honestly, is ridiculous. The India study was life long vegetarians. Besides what I and others are saying is that meat is not the main culprit in the epidemic of heart disease in western societies, so cutting it out shouldn't have a significant effect. See what I am saying? Again, I bet you a million dollars the meat eating group had a much unhealthier diet... high in trans fats, oils highly susceptible to oxidation, sugar and processed food. The India study is a much more convincing study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19676146

1
A402a961303d312055dc0b253f29deac

(320)

on January 31, 2013
at 12:06 AM

If you had asked for any other diet that requires thought and isn't overly wrong, you'd find the same results.

0
Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on January 31, 2013
at 07:26 PM

Why do people keep posting links about vegetarian and vegan diets and then asking people's opinions on a site dedicated to PALEO eating? (Are there Paleo vegetarians here? Yes, but they're in the minority.)

Do people post WAPF articles about the benefits of meat, organs, bones, and animal fats on vegan and vegetarian sites and then ask for opinions?

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

@Matt - I think comparing diets should be ok.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:18 PM

they compare a vegetarian diet vs SAD vs American Heart Association endorsed diet vs Mediterranean vs Paleo. Be able to control as many variables (sleep, exercise, etc) as possible so that benefits can be ascribed to diet alone as much as possible. I'm not saying studies like this are irrelevant on a Paleo board, but what is your purpose in asking your original question? Is it to help you find logical and compelling arguments in support of eating meat if/when vegetarians you know present you with articles and studies?

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 11:48 PM

I stand corrected. Thanks for the life lesson.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on January 31, 2013
at 09:56 PM

I posted it because it compares people who eat meat to those who don't. You don't see how that's related to paleo?

1398eff69b192c35de5e0dbaad59052a

(2024)

on February 01, 2013
at 04:01 PM

Actually, I saw that study, and was curious what the response here would be.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:12 PM

I didn't say it wasn't related to Paleo. I guess my question is what do you *expect* people on a Paleo-themed site to say about studies that show vegetarian and/or vegan diets to be more healthful than diets that include animal flesh and fats? These studies usually compare vegetarian diets to the SAD -- *of course* some of the biomarkers in the vegetarians are better. They don't usually *only* exclude meat. Ppl who go vegetarian for reasons other than animal rights/emotion are usually more concerned with health overall. Sometimes they ALSO: quit smoking, drink less...con't

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:50 PM

@Matt - I think comparing diets should be ok.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on February 01, 2013
at 03:32 PM

Because people like pitting paleo against vegan diets. Not a fair comparison, paleo is not anti-vegan per se.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

My purpose with my original question was to see if anyone else here (besides me) feels bothered by the campaign for people to stop eating meat. Even if the feedback may be what I expect, I could still be surprised (as I was a bit) with some comments. Also, I wanted to read opinions about the study from a paleo point of view.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on February 01, 2013
at 02:15 PM

Start exercising, take certain supplements, and make other lifestyle changes that also influence their health. To say they're healthier *only* because they don't eat meat is disingenuous. I'd prefer to see the health of long-time vegetarians (10-15+ years) compared to people following clean Paleo or even WAPF-type diets, rather than compared to diets that include fast food, way too much veg & seed oil, tons of sugar and other refined carbohydrates. Robb Wolf has been pushing for this for a while: a metabolic ward study where...con't

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:50 PM

Rereading your original comment (and from your downvote), it's clear to me that my question stressed you. Since you agreed that my question wasn't unrelated to paleo, I suggest you don't click on questions that you aren't interested in, instead of suggesting they shouldn't have been asked. Despite your complaint, you ended up participating on the topic anyway, and I agree with your later opinions.

D4d83e7981ca572aaaa19fc620bb54f1

(467)

on February 01, 2013
at 07:48 PM

Rereading your original comment, it's clear to me that my question stressed you. Since you agreed that my question wasn't unrelated to paleo, I suggest you don't click on questions that you aren't interested in, instead of suggesting they shouldn't have been asked. Despite your complaint, you ended up participating on the topic anyway, and I agree with your later opinions.

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