7

votes

Do your vegetarian friends still talk to you?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 16, 2011 at 10:04 PM

My few vegetarian friends are more than horrified at my going Paleo, they think I am evil, really evil. They are vegetarians for moral reasons, the cruelty of the animal farm factories. I tell them pastured animals are treated humanely and they turn a deaf ear. Eating animals to them is on par with cannibalism. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Dd2944d3038715aa784eadf5ef5fb575

(275)

on May 19, 2011
at 03:38 AM

Hey Jules! Unfortunately, that is very true. I love Buddha and the inspiration that comes from his writing!! but as I tell my Yoga Students when they practice the asanas "listen to your body". It took these words to realize that a diet of processed meat-like "foods" is not a healthy way of eating. We all must LISTEN TO OUR BODIES... no one else.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on May 18, 2011
at 02:03 PM

"To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it." - Voltaire

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 18, 2011
at 11:36 AM

When I was really into yoga, I felt some pressure to be a vegetarian- not from other people, but a lot of the literature I was reading left me feeling like it was a requirement & I felt kinda guilty about enjoying meat! Thanks for sharing your perspective.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on May 18, 2011
at 07:25 AM

don't be sorry! i'm so glad you took the time to say these things. <3 <3 <3

1d9af5db8833413037be3ac48964714f

(3789)

on May 17, 2011
at 11:28 PM

Laughing at imbeciles like that is the best response.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:26 PM

@Anon: As for eternal life stuff. First it isn't a reality right now. Sure it could be one day but we don't know how or when or what the consequences will be. I also don't think eternal life would be very fulfilling or exciting. What's the point of life? To me it's happiness. I don't think that people who have everything can be happy. Happiness is subjective and for people who have no hardship life is just bland. Things could be better for a lot of people but unlimited life, leisure, and pleasure, don't seem to make people happy. Look at rich people they are all f'd up. Sorry this is so long.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:20 PM

@Anon: I personally don't want to remove myself from the cycles of life. When I have been close to people that are dying it has seemed to me that the best course for the person dying & people around them is acceptance. Death can have a wonderful effect on people willing to except it. It brings about honesty, resolution, and resolve in peoples lives. I think if society was based around community. Than death in families wouldn't be as big of a problem. You wouldn't have single parents left to deal with it alone. You wouldn't have kids without family.I know it's still not perfect but nothing is

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:13 PM

@Anon: But they are reality. Death makes me not take people or life for granted. Makes me take chances, struggle, and try harder. It makes me embrace life, ecstatic or painful. Knowing my life and death are a part of a long cycle of life and death is truly beautiful to me. I will die to make room for more life. I will feed those lives with the knowledge I have carried, the world I have left, and ideally with my body. I don't like to see people close to me go. But they will so I try to give death and its place in my life the respect I think it deserves.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:09 PM

@Anon: As for human death? like I said death is inevitable. I have seen death first hand. I was homeless at age 16 I saw people fall off trains, and O.D. in front of me. I have had friends stabbed and beaten to death. I've been close to queer community for years and seen the effects of HIV up close. One grandpa drank himself to death and the other struggled to stay a live with medication both where equally disgusting to me. I've worked in group homes/hospices. I watched a young strong healthy husband and father fall 6 stories at work. These things aren't all beauty they're also sad and ugly.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:05 PM

@Anon: For me death is even beautiful on a aesthetic and sensory level in these contexts. The color of blood and intestines or fresh cambium. The smell of an animal up close or the air released from the body when you cut it open or a stomach full of barely digested plants. The smells a falling tree releases from everything around it as it falls. The feeling of warm blood and smooth soft fat, sticky resin and cold green wood on a hot day. I think it's beautiful to be there participating in death to see and feel it first hand. This isn't human death but it's still death and we depend on it

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:01 PM

@Anon: I call death "beautiful" for a number of reasons. Have you ever taken the life of an animal? whether hunted or raised yourself. It's an intense and beautiful thing. It's also sad even with the 100th chicken. Especially if you let your self be in the moment. This can also be said for plants. Cutting down a tree is intensely, beautiful/sad. If you know that tree and the place it lives in and it's contribution to that place. Are any of these things wrong because they kill? I don't think so. They all give or make room for more life.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 08:57 PM

@Anonymous: First let me say that just because I think death is "beautiful" among other things. Doesn't mean I think everyone should. Just that I doubt we would have enough in common to be good friends. Not just based on this one belief but because of a most likely radically different outlook on life and goals in general. For me death is an inevitable. I think when people don't accept death for them selves and others around them as inevitable and always possible. It can be debilitating to enjoying life in the present.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 05:26 PM

@Mark V: Just like I would have a genuine hatred for somebody who thought confronting random people on the street and crippling them was a great way to build their BJJ skills. Maybe we simply have a conflict of interests with people who think killing animals is evil, or perhaps there's something to discuss, like WHY they think killing animals is bad? If you try to see it from their perspective, it's not as crazy as it seems.

E463925643fb45b5a5eda041e9f8adba

(0)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:20 PM

If he eats seafood he is NOT vegetarian.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 05:18 PM

@total fing hippie: I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't think death is beautiful. Maybe you do based on your subjective preferences. All I wanted was for you to read that email and then perhaps re-evaluate your position. If that email and the very-real prospect of defeating death doesn't change your view, all I can do is ask you why exactly you think death is "beautiful". I'm certainly not fond of death, nor do I want anybody close to me to fall to that fate. I would never call it "beautiful". Instead I would align myself with Yudkowsky, who confronts it head on as the evil it is.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Not all vegetarians eat that way for ethical reasons, and not all vegetarians avoid all animal food products. It's a big world.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:03 PM

@anonymous: is that story of death suppose to make me reevaluate my views on death? or am I suppose to be learning about the singularity? either way it doesn't change a thing. I have be present at deaths I have had close friends killed. It's not an abstract position of mine it's reality. As for the singularity this forum is not an ideal place to have the in depth discussion it would require.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2011
at 04:44 PM

I wish you would. I know it was miserable for you, but it's a funny story.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:21 PM

most, but not all, of the vegetarians I know certainly to not look healthy (if that means anything.)

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:19 PM

I don't have problems with the veggies who are that way for health reasons, they are simply misguided. Its the self righteous, PETA animal lovers who are veggies for moral reasons. They have a genuine hatred for people who eat like we do.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:12 PM

Just the idea of living on soy and beans...... only if I had too

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:08 PM

yes, the zeal and dogmatism is like a religion

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:03 PM

Thanks for all the answers and comments. The truth is if mankind was not "super smart" we would have been eaten by animals long ago. That is just the way nature works. The animals in the local small organic farms here live a pretty good life.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 17, 2011
at 10:17 AM

Opps, yea it should have been TASTY... its what happens when I type when I should just go to bed.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 03:26 AM

I went to the Mises Institute's site. It rang home once again that, begrudgingly, I'm having to admit to myself little by little that I might be something like a libertarian... my communist father would not abide. In any case, there's some interesting and highly-relevant ideology there, but I find the less I consider politics and news in general, the more satisfied I am with what is at arm's-reach in my life.

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:59 AM

boy is that right... I don't really know any vegetarians but it's hard to remain calm when people start talking about how butter etc is "gonna clog your arteries" and upon giving CRAP to my child they say "well its low fat, a little sugar won't kill him" aughhhhhhhhhhh I really could go on but I know I am preaching to the choir :)

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:54 AM

people eating TASTY animals ;)

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:50 AM

@becker: Yeah there should be some sort of PM system or something.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:48 AM

@becker: Well good about the apolitical thing. Being a nationalist is about as insane as it gets. Always good to see somebody rightfully claim no allegiance to any nation. About what you could do about it, well to start you could check out the Mises Institute, an organization who really does think they can do something about it. They also have a forum which is very good. Drop in their some day if you want. I highly recommend it. For most people though, statism and nationalism are just given, and there's nothing to do but be like Julia from 1984.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:40 AM

...My girlfriend of 4 years is very, very, very different from myself, and it's a game for her (and entertaining/enlightening for me) to pick out all my little quirks. Like, I only listen to instrumental music, I don't watch TV, I only really enjoy video games on the NES anymore, I climb every tree I see... etc. Yep, an etc. within a clarification of etc. Anyway, I enjoyed this sidetrack of ours :) There really needs to be a messaging system or chatroom-type thing on paleohacks so the members can get to know one another better. And tartare, calling bullshit just feels AWESOME sometimes.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:35 AM

Countercultural = a sum of all my parts that distinguishes me from the "culture" of those my age, but more denotatively, I don't care what Lady Gaga is, what people think of my Vibrams, or how awesome you think Call of Duty is (8-bit all the way!). I am who I want to be. Sounds a bit like a high-schooly cry for attention, I know, but it is what it is. Etc = too many quirks to list... I've ALWAYS been known as "the quirky guy" or some such facsimile...

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:33 AM

"call bullshit" yeah, exactly! 3 posts from me and you summed it up in two words. Sometimes thats what you gotta do.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:29 AM

Skeptical = I believe most people are entirely too confident in their own epistemologies and those of others. This is how saturated fat became the Benedict Arnold of the circulatory system in the greater collective consciousness. So it goes with a depressing gamut of other topics. By assessing and integrating a spectrum of opinions rather than accepting *any* Authoritative Decree, I feel I get closer to reality and confidence in my perceptions of all things.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:23 AM

That said, there are times where I couldn't care less about appearing knowledgeable and instead I'll call bullshit on whatever slighted me. Such as it were halfway up the steps to my apartment when she judged a guy she just met because he ate meat. No one should do this. Anyway, apolitical = I feel no patriotism or link to any nation, and I think the intrigue between and within nations is a game of self-interest and power-grabbing that is beyond relevance to my life -- thus, I only occasionally concern myself with any political issue or newspiece because, well, what am I to do about it?

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:18 AM

Tartare pretty much hit it. I was more defending my character around t=fridge-transport because I felt slighted given the situation. At t=fridge-transport+1, I reverted to quiet confidence. I totally agree that it is extremely disarming and requires people to expose their own (often lack of) knowledge rather than little slough-offs like laughing at your crazy claims or unconventional beliefs. It's a bit like the old adage "the best way to stand up to a bully is to ignore him" in that you force the haters to pony up their own knowledge rather than allow them to get under your skin.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:05 AM

i don't think he was trying to convert her to paleo or "reach her" as much as say "i have every right to feel this way and i can't believe you are being absolutely so rude to me after I just helped you move a fridge and who knows what else." Standing up for yourself is ok too, IMO.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:03 AM

i think emotional restraint is generally but not absolutely always the best practice. Sometimes you should get it out of your system and we were not there to thoroughly asses the situation.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:01 AM

Death is beautiful? Really? http://yudkowsky.net/other/yehuda

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:00 AM

both of you have important points. a straightforward equanimity based on thoroughly examined logic with no concern for the immediate reception of your ideas is indeed highly valuable, effective and all too elusive, but sometimes you just want to defend your point of view with a little more heat. Not sure how much heat becker used based on what he said but i think in this case it was more to do with him saying (very rightfully in my opinion) that that girl was being a #[email protected]* by behaving so disrespectfully towards him when he just went out of his way and put forth great effort to help her out.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:55 AM

Continued: And could you clarify what skeptical and countercultural mean? And perhaps what exactly the "etc" refers to? Skip any of these questions if you want.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:54 AM

@becker: Just wondering, but what do you mean by "apolitical"?

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Continued: I'm not exactly typical either. To most people, my life is like an alternate reality or something. And my views are generally heterodox too. So I've had a lot of experience in these kinds of situations. I've spent 1000s of hours trying to figure out how to reach people, and the "quiet confidence" is basically THE most important key. Be rational even if a storm erupts. It's hard to be mad when the other person isn't. It's hard to laugh when the other person won't. And it's hard to be irrational when the other person isn't.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:45 AM

Continued: If you can get to a point where you don't let stuff like that get to you, that's how you'll unleash other people's rationality. But if YOU turn irrational when THEY turn irrational, when you go from a serious conversation to a pissing contest is ALL UP TO THEM. Not a good situation IMO. It's incredible how powerful keeping a straight face while somebody laughs at you is when it comes to getting them to shut the hell up and rejoin reality. Just like it's hard to be mad when the other person simply isn't, it's hard to be irrational when the other person is being perfectly rational.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:41 AM

@becker: The problem is that those pejorative, malicious remarks come all too commonly, and if you can't deal with those remarks, you generally won't be able to handle those kinds of people either. You gotta just keep your composure and address their concerns. So many times I've gone from a group of people literally laughing at something I said to them suddenly regaining their composure and nodding sincerely... But how? Simply by keeping my composure, ignoring their tone, and simply addressing their concern.

41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on May 17, 2011
at 01:30 AM

Must be one o' them "paradoxes" ;)

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:30 AM

I guess I should add that being atheist, paleo, apolitical, skeptical, countercultural, etc., it's pretty much become necessary to have "quiet confidence" as you say. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any friends I could coexist with without getting into arguments. I trust my own knowledge because I know where it came from. When someone pejoratively and maliciously slings a bullshit remark my way, though, I usually bite, and that's when "quiet" disappears and "confident" alone has to make an appearance.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Plus one.........

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:14 AM

Eh, it's hard to really flesh out what happened in 600 characters, but I didn't get authoritative. I never do -- I have a serious problem with people who do, and I make sure never to do it myself. There's more to the story than my cliffnotes version, but she got very up her own ass about how animals are treated (assuming CAFO) and how anyone who eats them is a douche. Her words pretty much came out like that, so I took a little offense and blinded her with science. No, really. I don't think she even tried to process what I told her. Preconceived notions, man... they're the worst.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:12 AM

hey, why the downvote?

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:05 AM

@becker: You gotta quit that shit, man. There's no point in having authority battles or anything. Get some quiet confidence and then just be rational, civil, calm, etc. People will start listening, believe me. It's only the people who get all touchy, get into authority fights, and generally just seem like they're trying to impress somebody... it's only those people who aren't taken seriously. You'll convince a lot more people if you simply stay calm and rational. Even if they laugh at you or seem disgusted, keep your composure, just stay calm and address their concerns.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Why'd you get all touchy and start talking about her judging you and shit? Why didn't you just tell her that you can't stomach that shit either and that's why you don't support factory farming, but instead support traditional farming?

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Your strategy with dealing with vegetarians/vegans is to feed them animals while they try to bully you??

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:49 AM

He's vegetarian even though he eats animals? Interesting.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:48 AM

@Ryan H: Oh wow that's original !

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:39 AM

oh she was a horrible person. ive never disliked someone so intensely so quickly. i could go on, but i wont.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:38 AM

yeah I've had more issues with WW's zealots than vegetarians. My mother is a lifetime member of WW's... lost 50 pounds and has kept it off for 20 years. The funny part is she NEVER ate fake low fat food and she still thinks it's the WW's that did it. She eats full fat yogurt, real cheese, marbled beef, and has never had margarine in her house as long as I've been alive. Just olive oil and butter.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:35 AM

Ah, yeah, to that last point you made... she said that saturated fat in meat is unhealthy. I didn't take offense -- most people think this is a fact. I told her that my own research reading primary literature suggested the opposite, and that you can only trust data you read and interpret (even then, there should be skepticism). To humor myself, I asked her what her major was, assuming it'd be something non-sciency. Nope! Microbiology. She even name-dropped her major as some sort of legitimizer, freshman as she was. I countered by telling her I already had my biology BS. No dice for you

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:56 PM

wow. then you threw the fridge right back down the stairs and she couldn't pick it up because she didn't have the strength, right? Please tell me thats how the story ends! Oh people, they are so silly, no? And they don't like to think that the constructs they have accepted and built their lives on might actually be wrong. See also : "fat doesn't actually make you fat."

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I wish I had been a fly on THAT wall!

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:41 PM

PETA? People Eating Tasting Animals? I'm a member of Peta.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:15 PM

yes, supply and demand is exactly what i was getting at.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:03 PM

It's hard to argue that supporting ethic treatment of animals raised for food isn't a good thing. As more people support humane practices more demand is created and supply increases. When supply increases prices come down and this type of product is accessible to many more. Yes opting out is one way to go but opting to invest in change so that we eventually annihilate the horror of factory farming or change it. Veggies need to see this as the second prong in a two-pronged approach. The real change will come when the consumer says no to cruelty and demands better not when they walk away.

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18 Answers

9
Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 16, 2011
at 10:36 PM

it's their choice to turn a deaf ear, but in reality I think the choice to eat humanely raised and pastured animals is very important in promoting animal welfare.

If no one supports these types of practices, then corporate factory farming wins. Animals really are a vital part of sustainable farming, mostly in that they truly promote soil fertility and soil integrity which is key in keeping this planet healthy. Plenty of vegetable farming including organic farming is done as a monoculture and leads to run off that is destroying life in bodies of water all over the world.

Nature designed her system to include an animal food chain and well, if your vegetarian friends choose to attempt to re-author it, well, what can you do?

I try to stay out of conversations about these subjects with the vegetarians/vegans I know, but if it were brought up I would stand by the basic point that what I am doing is very acceptable to me from a broader moral standpoint. I split a bottle of wine with a vegetarian not but a few days ago, and we had no problem agreeing on that :)

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:15 PM

yes, supply and demand is exactly what i was getting at.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:03 PM

It's hard to argue that supporting ethic treatment of animals raised for food isn't a good thing. As more people support humane practices more demand is created and supply increases. When supply increases prices come down and this type of product is accessible to many more. Yes opting out is one way to go but opting to invest in change so that we eventually annihilate the horror of factory farming or change it. Veggies need to see this as the second prong in a two-pronged approach. The real change will come when the consumer says no to cruelty and demands better not when they walk away.

8
Medium avatar

on May 16, 2011
at 10:14 PM

Given that their lifestyle is more akin to a religion than a thoroughly researched, science-based approach to diet, it's futile to attempt to sway their opinion. Obvious vitality is the best argument.

We have a vegan friend who works for PETA, and it's simply not worth it to ever get into it.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 17, 2011
at 10:17 AM

Opps, yea it should have been TASTY... its what happens when I type when I should just go to bed.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:08 PM

yes, the zeal and dogmatism is like a religion

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:41 PM

PETA? People Eating Tasting Animals? I'm a member of Peta.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:48 AM

@Ryan H: Oh wow that's original !

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:54 AM

people eating TASTY animals ;)

7
Dd2944d3038715aa784eadf5ef5fb575

(275)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:40 PM

I am a paleo-eating Yoga teacher. :) I think it's refreshing for Yogis to realize that they don't have to fit the stereotype to be a Yogi. When my students realize that I'm no longer a vegetarian they seem relieved. As for my friends and students that enjoy a vegetarian lifestyle, we extend a common courtesy. They know that I've been there-done that, and it wasn't right for my family. It's all good. I figure if they are that closed-minded, we didn't need to be friends anyway :)

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 18, 2011
at 11:36 AM

When I was really into yoga, I felt some pressure to be a vegetarian- not from other people, but a lot of the literature I was reading left me feeling like it was a requirement & I felt kinda guilty about enjoying meat! Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Dd2944d3038715aa784eadf5ef5fb575

(275)

on May 19, 2011
at 03:38 AM

Hey Jules! Unfortunately, that is very true. I love Buddha and the inspiration that comes from his writing!! but as I tell my Yoga Students when they practice the asanas "listen to your body". It took these words to realize that a diet of processed meat-like "foods" is not a healthy way of eating. We all must LISTEN TO OUR BODIES... no one else.

7
9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

on May 16, 2011
at 10:33 PM

My closest friend of 20+ years is vegetarian (though he eats eggs and seafood), and I am currently strict Paleo. We have dinner together 1-2x per week and travel together. I'm amused by his choices as he is by mine. A couple of years ago he successfully lost 50 pounds on his diet and is in great health.

We are both serious about our diet + health and do a lot of reading and research, but have just come to different conclusions, and each have something that works for us. We have also both tried lots of diets over the years and know not to get dogmatic about our choices even while remaining disciplined.

It is fun to come up with dinners that work not only for the two of us, but my family who are pretty non-Paleo. For example last night I made whole roasted rockfish, oysters on the half shell, broccolini, and basmati rice, with sorbet for dessert. Side dishes included salmon roe, spicy pickled radish, seaweed salad, and dried pineapple. You can't say that we suffered in any way and had a great time.

I think the idea that you can't be friends with someone because they eat differently is absolutely ridiculous, and might be a sign that you're taking yourself a bit too seriously.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:49 AM

He's vegetarian even though he eats animals? Interesting.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Not all vegetarians eat that way for ethical reasons, and not all vegetarians avoid all animal food products. It's a big world.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on May 18, 2011
at 02:03 PM

"To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it." - Voltaire

E463925643fb45b5a5eda041e9f8adba

(0)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:20 PM

If he eats seafood he is NOT vegetarian.

6
Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:48 PM

I just moved someone who I found on craigslist into my old apartment. Just casually talking, we ferreted out that she was a vegetarian and that I was a "carnivore" (in her words). She told me that she couldn't stomach how awfully animals were treated and couldn't believe that I could either, and that she'd "probably" eat meat if the meat industry weren't as it is. I told her that I couldn't believe she'd make a judgment of my character after having known me for 15 minutes, especially after helping her move her damn fridge, and that I love animals and I'd only ever eat one if it came off a pasture both out of respect for the animal and for my own body. I dropped the knowledge-bomb about grass-fed farming, and she didn't even know such a crazy thing existed.

I told her all I knew about it, and punctuated it by asking her if she would consider eating meat now, you know, being that her vegetarianism was based on a reasonable moral inclination. Having listened to me demolish that moral avenue and replace it with an ethical alternative, she said she "probably won't" eat meat anyway. Ok!

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:55 AM

Continued: And could you clarify what skeptical and countercultural mean? And perhaps what exactly the "etc" refers to? Skip any of these questions if you want.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:05 AM

@becker: You gotta quit that shit, man. There's no point in having authority battles or anything. Get some quiet confidence and then just be rational, civil, calm, etc. People will start listening, believe me. It's only the people who get all touchy, get into authority fights, and generally just seem like they're trying to impress somebody... it's only those people who aren't taken seriously. You'll convince a lot more people if you simply stay calm and rational. Even if they laugh at you or seem disgusted, keep your composure, just stay calm and address their concerns.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:35 AM

Countercultural = a sum of all my parts that distinguishes me from the "culture" of those my age, but more denotatively, I don't care what Lady Gaga is, what people think of my Vibrams, or how awesome you think Call of Duty is (8-bit all the way!). I am who I want to be. Sounds a bit like a high-schooly cry for attention, I know, but it is what it is. Etc = too many quirks to list... I've ALWAYS been known as "the quirky guy" or some such facsimile...

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:54 AM

@becker: Just wondering, but what do you mean by "apolitical"?

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:33 AM

"call bullshit" yeah, exactly! 3 posts from me and you summed it up in two words. Sometimes thats what you gotta do.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:05 AM

i don't think he was trying to convert her to paleo or "reach her" as much as say "i have every right to feel this way and i can't believe you are being absolutely so rude to me after I just helped you move a fridge and who knows what else." Standing up for yourself is ok too, IMO.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:50 AM

@becker: Yeah there should be some sort of PM system or something.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:35 AM

Ah, yeah, to that last point you made... she said that saturated fat in meat is unhealthy. I didn't take offense -- most people think this is a fact. I told her that my own research reading primary literature suggested the opposite, and that you can only trust data you read and interpret (even then, there should be skepticism). To humor myself, I asked her what her major was, assuming it'd be something non-sciency. Nope! Microbiology. She even name-dropped her major as some sort of legitimizer, freshman as she was. I countered by telling her I already had my biology BS. No dice for you

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:03 AM

i think emotional restraint is generally but not absolutely always the best practice. Sometimes you should get it out of your system and we were not there to thoroughly asses the situation.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:41 AM

@becker: The problem is that those pejorative, malicious remarks come all too commonly, and if you can't deal with those remarks, you generally won't be able to handle those kinds of people either. You gotta just keep your composure and address their concerns. So many times I've gone from a group of people literally laughing at something I said to them suddenly regaining their composure and nodding sincerely... But how? Simply by keeping my composure, ignoring their tone, and simply addressing their concern.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:40 AM

...My girlfriend of 4 years is very, very, very different from myself, and it's a game for her (and entertaining/enlightening for me) to pick out all my little quirks. Like, I only listen to instrumental music, I don't watch TV, I only really enjoy video games on the NES anymore, I climb every tree I see... etc. Yep, an etc. within a clarification of etc. Anyway, I enjoyed this sidetrack of ours :) There really needs to be a messaging system or chatroom-type thing on paleohacks so the members can get to know one another better. And tartare, calling bullshit just feels AWESOME sometimes.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:45 AM

Continued: If you can get to a point where you don't let stuff like that get to you, that's how you'll unleash other people's rationality. But if YOU turn irrational when THEY turn irrational, when you go from a serious conversation to a pissing contest is ALL UP TO THEM. Not a good situation IMO. It's incredible how powerful keeping a straight face while somebody laughs at you is when it comes to getting them to shut the hell up and rejoin reality. Just like it's hard to be mad when the other person simply isn't, it's hard to be irrational when the other person is being perfectly rational.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:29 AM

Skeptical = I believe most people are entirely too confident in their own epistemologies and those of others. This is how saturated fat became the Benedict Arnold of the circulatory system in the greater collective consciousness. So it goes with a depressing gamut of other topics. By assessing and integrating a spectrum of opinions rather than accepting *any* Authoritative Decree, I feel I get closer to reality and confidence in my perceptions of all things.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Continued: I'm not exactly typical either. To most people, my life is like an alternate reality or something. And my views are generally heterodox too. So I've had a lot of experience in these kinds of situations. I've spent 1000s of hours trying to figure out how to reach people, and the "quiet confidence" is basically THE most important key. Be rational even if a storm erupts. It's hard to be mad when the other person isn't. It's hard to laugh when the other person won't. And it's hard to be irrational when the other person isn't.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 03:26 AM

I went to the Mises Institute's site. It rang home once again that, begrudgingly, I'm having to admit to myself little by little that I might be something like a libertarian... my communist father would not abide. In any case, there's some interesting and highly-relevant ideology there, but I find the less I consider politics and news in general, the more satisfied I am with what is at arm's-reach in my life.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:48 AM

@becker: Well good about the apolitical thing. Being a nationalist is about as insane as it gets. Always good to see somebody rightfully claim no allegiance to any nation. About what you could do about it, well to start you could check out the Mises Institute, an organization who really does think they can do something about it. They also have a forum which is very good. Drop in their some day if you want. I highly recommend it. For most people though, statism and nationalism are just given, and there's nothing to do but be like Julia from 1984.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:56 PM

wow. then you threw the fridge right back down the stairs and she couldn't pick it up because she didn't have the strength, right? Please tell me thats how the story ends! Oh people, they are so silly, no? And they don't like to think that the constructs they have accepted and built their lives on might actually be wrong. See also : "fat doesn't actually make you fat."

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:14 AM

Eh, it's hard to really flesh out what happened in 600 characters, but I didn't get authoritative. I never do -- I have a serious problem with people who do, and I make sure never to do it myself. There's more to the story than my cliffnotes version, but she got very up her own ass about how animals are treated (assuming CAFO) and how anyone who eats them is a douche. Her words pretty much came out like that, so I took a little offense and blinded her with science. No, really. I don't think she even tried to process what I told her. Preconceived notions, man... they're the worst.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:23 AM

That said, there are times where I couldn't care less about appearing knowledgeable and instead I'll call bullshit on whatever slighted me. Such as it were halfway up the steps to my apartment when she judged a guy she just met because he ate meat. No one should do this. Anyway, apolitical = I feel no patriotism or link to any nation, and I think the intrigue between and within nations is a game of self-interest and power-grabbing that is beyond relevance to my life -- thus, I only occasionally concern myself with any political issue or newspiece because, well, what am I to do about it?

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:30 AM

I guess I should add that being atheist, paleo, apolitical, skeptical, countercultural, etc., it's pretty much become necessary to have "quiet confidence" as you say. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any friends I could coexist with without getting into arguments. I trust my own knowledge because I know where it came from. When someone pejoratively and maliciously slings a bullshit remark my way, though, I usually bite, and that's when "quiet" disappears and "confident" alone has to make an appearance.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Why'd you get all touchy and start talking about her judging you and shit? Why didn't you just tell her that you can't stomach that shit either and that's why you don't support factory farming, but instead support traditional farming?

Medium avatar

(5136)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:00 AM

both of you have important points. a straightforward equanimity based on thoroughly examined logic with no concern for the immediate reception of your ideas is indeed highly valuable, effective and all too elusive, but sometimes you just want to defend your point of view with a little more heat. Not sure how much heat becker used based on what he said but i think in this case it was more to do with him saying (very rightfully in my opinion) that that girl was being a #[email protected]* by behaving so disrespectfully towards him when he just went out of his way and put forth great effort to help her out.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:18 AM

Tartare pretty much hit it. I was more defending my character around t=fridge-transport because I felt slighted given the situation. At t=fridge-transport+1, I reverted to quiet confidence. I totally agree that it is extremely disarming and requires people to expose their own (often lack of) knowledge rather than little slough-offs like laughing at your crazy claims or unconventional beliefs. It's a bit like the old adage "the best way to stand up to a bully is to ignore him" in that you force the haters to pony up their own knowledge rather than allow them to get under your skin.

6
Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:36 PM

two very close friends of mine who have been vegan for 20+ years and own a vegan junk-food grocery store deleted me off of facebook when i started eating a paleo diet. really hurt my feelings- these are people who i hvae known loner than ive know my husband. i flew to their wedding from new england to east bum f**k louisiana. i respect their passion and the fact that they have literally devoted their life to something the believe in so strongly. it was never an issue for me in the slightest. i have friends who follow all sorts of weirdo diets like i do, and its never been an issue.

i was forced out to dinner a while ago with this horrid woman who i had never met before, a friend of a friend, who is vegetarian. we just clashed from the moment i met up with her, but food never came up. when we ended up at dinner together at a thai place, i ordered lamb and veggies she got some pile of rice noodles in sugar/soybean oil and fried tofu. she leaned over the table and asked what i was eating and when i told her she did the most obnoxious histrionic gagging fit. i just started laughing like crazy, and i dont think she appreciated it one bit. but it was so dramatic!

the whole damn night i was itching to point out the hour long ride we had to take in her LEATHER UPHOLSTERED LEXUS.

that sort of thing kills me. but she wasnt and never will be a friend, so i was thankful to see the back of her.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:39 AM

oh she was a horrible person. ive never disliked someone so intensely so quickly. i could go on, but i wont.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2011
at 04:44 PM

I wish you would. I know it was miserable for you, but it's a funny story.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I wish I had been a fly on THAT wall!

1d9af5db8833413037be3ac48964714f

(3789)

on May 17, 2011
at 11:28 PM

Laughing at imbeciles like that is the best response.

4
072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on May 18, 2011
at 09:34 PM

What vegetarian friends?

4
61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

on May 17, 2011
at 01:56 AM

I can't be good friends with vegans or vegetarians. If it's a health thing for them, that's fine. But if it is moral? they will not like me much as I kill animals for food on a regular basis. Every vegan/vegitarian I come into contact with has a moral reasoning for there diet. I also think one has to be delusional, self important, completely ignorant of the natural world and unaccepting of death. This doesn't work for me as I like to live close to nature and strive to be as much a part of the cycle of life as I can. Death is sad and beautiful at the same time and if you can't accept that we won't have much in-common.

Most vegans I do come into contact with silently hate me from afar. Then I hear about it later. But if I have meat (I always do) I am bringing it to the potluck! Sorry if your kids are begging for it.

Of course I am always nice to them. I just can't take them seriously and won't accommodate them. All but one vegan I have known for a longtime has given it up. The one I do know is kinda crazy and sickly. She is damaging her children and she knows it! She knows how I feel so we just don't talk about it. But I can't even look her in the eyes anymore.

On top of that. Food is a huge part of my life. Procuring, cooking, and eating food is probably the number one thing I do with close friends. Whether it's hunting/fishing, raising animals, gardening, gathering wild edibles, butchering, preserving, cooking, eating out, celebrating it's all food all the time. Most of my hobbies beyond that even include animal parts sinew, bone, leather, brains etc...

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:19 PM

I don't have problems with the veggies who are that way for health reasons, they are simply misguided. Its the self righteous, PETA animal lovers who are veggies for moral reasons. They have a genuine hatred for people who eat like we do.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:13 PM

@Anon: But they are reality. Death makes me not take people or life for granted. Makes me take chances, struggle, and try harder. It makes me embrace life, ecstatic or painful. Knowing my life and death are a part of a long cycle of life and death is truly beautiful to me. I will die to make room for more life. I will feed those lives with the knowledge I have carried, the world I have left, and ideally with my body. I don't like to see people close to me go. But they will so I try to give death and its place in my life the respect I think it deserves.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:09 PM

@Anon: As for human death? like I said death is inevitable. I have seen death first hand. I was homeless at age 16 I saw people fall off trains, and O.D. in front of me. I have had friends stabbed and beaten to death. I've been close to queer community for years and seen the effects of HIV up close. One grandpa drank himself to death and the other struggled to stay a live with medication both where equally disgusting to me. I've worked in group homes/hospices. I watched a young strong healthy husband and father fall 6 stories at work. These things aren't all beauty they're also sad and ugly.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 02:01 AM

Death is beautiful? Really? http://yudkowsky.net/other/yehuda

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 05:03 PM

@anonymous: is that story of death suppose to make me reevaluate my views on death? or am I suppose to be learning about the singularity? either way it doesn't change a thing. I have be present at deaths I have had close friends killed. It's not an abstract position of mine it's reality. As for the singularity this forum is not an ideal place to have the in depth discussion it would require.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 05:26 PM

@Mark V: Just like I would have a genuine hatred for somebody who thought confronting random people on the street and crippling them was a great way to build their BJJ skills. Maybe we simply have a conflict of interests with people who think killing animals is evil, or perhaps there's something to discuss, like WHY they think killing animals is bad? If you try to see it from their perspective, it's not as crazy as it seems.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on May 18, 2011
at 07:25 AM

don't be sorry! i'm so glad you took the time to say these things. <3 <3 <3

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 08:57 PM

@Anonymous: First let me say that just because I think death is "beautiful" among other things. Doesn't mean I think everyone should. Just that I doubt we would have enough in common to be good friends. Not just based on this one belief but because of a most likely radically different outlook on life and goals in general. For me death is an inevitable. I think when people don't accept death for them selves and others around them as inevitable and always possible. It can be debilitating to enjoying life in the present.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 05:18 PM

@total fing hippie: I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't think death is beautiful. Maybe you do based on your subjective preferences. All I wanted was for you to read that email and then perhaps re-evaluate your position. If that email and the very-real prospect of defeating death doesn't change your view, all I can do is ask you why exactly you think death is "beautiful". I'm certainly not fond of death, nor do I want anybody close to me to fall to that fate. I would never call it "beautiful". Instead I would align myself with Yudkowsky, who confronts it head on as the evil it is.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:05 PM

@Anon: For me death is even beautiful on a aesthetic and sensory level in these contexts. The color of blood and intestines or fresh cambium. The smell of an animal up close or the air released from the body when you cut it open or a stomach full of barely digested plants. The smells a falling tree releases from everything around it as it falls. The feeling of warm blood and smooth soft fat, sticky resin and cold green wood on a hot day. I think it's beautiful to be there participating in death to see and feel it first hand. This isn't human death but it's still death and we depend on it

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:26 PM

@Anon: As for eternal life stuff. First it isn't a reality right now. Sure it could be one day but we don't know how or when or what the consequences will be. I also don't think eternal life would be very fulfilling or exciting. What's the point of life? To me it's happiness. I don't think that people who have everything can be happy. Happiness is subjective and for people who have no hardship life is just bland. Things could be better for a lot of people but unlimited life, leisure, and pleasure, don't seem to make people happy. Look at rich people they are all f'd up. Sorry this is so long.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:01 PM

@Anon: I call death "beautiful" for a number of reasons. Have you ever taken the life of an animal? whether hunted or raised yourself. It's an intense and beautiful thing. It's also sad even with the 100th chicken. Especially if you let your self be in the moment. This can also be said for plants. Cutting down a tree is intensely, beautiful/sad. If you know that tree and the place it lives in and it's contribution to that place. Are any of these things wrong because they kill? I don't think so. They all give or make room for more life.

61e254571b4c792bca87340a090a3ea1

(480)

on May 17, 2011
at 09:20 PM

@Anon: I personally don't want to remove myself from the cycles of life. When I have been close to people that are dying it has seemed to me that the best course for the person dying & people around them is acceptance. Death can have a wonderful effect on people willing to except it. It brings about honesty, resolution, and resolve in peoples lives. I think if society was based around community. Than death in families wouldn't be as big of a problem. You wouldn't have single parents left to deal with it alone. You wouldn't have kids without family.I know it's still not perfect but nothing is

4
7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on May 16, 2011
at 10:25 PM

Strangely enough all three of my closest friends are vegetarian or (borderline) vegan. No problems whatsoever. I don't get preachy or smug about my diet and they extend the same courtesy to me. In fact it's really a non-issue. Though I do have to laugh a little inwardly when they complain how "unfair" it is that I am so lean/fit even though I eat meat and fish instead of "healthy" soy and beans :D

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:12 PM

Just the idea of living on soy and beans...... only if I had too

41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on May 17, 2011
at 01:30 AM

Must be one o' them "paradoxes" ;)

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 16, 2011
at 11:39 PM

Admit to them that you have indeed become a cannibal. After all, if you can eat one kind of meat then you can eat another (human meat). After all, that's their point, isn't it? Then you can point out that plants have a sensual life all of their own, are living beings, and that therefore, they (your friends) should take the next logical step: stop eating and become breatharians. Ask them, if it's ok if you roast them after they have succumbed to that "lifestyle choice".

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:12 AM

hey, why the downvote?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Plus one.........

3
E7dc4f2e3998906dd3213973a3c10d50

on May 16, 2011
at 11:10 PM

My vegetarian friends don't seem to care very much, honestly. The most heated food debate I've had came with someone who follows Weight Watchers, and was regarding the high-fat content of paleo diets (she was a bit irritated by my "fat doesn't make you fat" comment) rather than the animal-flesh component.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:38 AM

yeah I've had more issues with WW's zealots than vegetarians. My mother is a lifetime member of WW's... lost 50 pounds and has kept it off for 20 years. The funny part is she NEVER ate fake low fat food and she still thinks it's the WW's that did it. She eats full fat yogurt, real cheese, marbled beef, and has never had margarine in her house as long as I've been alive. Just olive oil and butter.

4b61b13ed39e5c5d01fe234900cadcf8

(1138)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:59 AM

boy is that right... I don't really know any vegetarians but it's hard to remain calm when people start talking about how butter etc is "gonna clog your arteries" and upon giving CRAP to my child they say "well its low fat, a little sugar won't kill him" aughhhhhhhhhhh I really could go on but I know I am preaching to the choir :)

2
3c685cadb4f22cb308fd147abc0f5928

on May 18, 2011
at 08:22 PM

I think if people take it too seriously it can be a problem. The friends I have that are vegetarians vary in response to my diet. The ones that identify them selves by diet do. The ones that see it as just one part of there whole don't. That's fine with me.

2
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on May 17, 2011
at 12:53 AM

My sister and her husband do an Ornish style pescatarian diet. We talk about nutrition together all the time. We both understand and respect each other's position. We also make fun of each other a lot, but we're sisters and don't take it seriously.

1
3f3236d1f951d4b4c25eff387699a905

(554)

on June 12, 2011
at 10:08 AM

I was rather surprised at how negatively my vegan/vegetarian friends reacted. I thought they were better than that. Goes to show how much brainwash is involved in ve*ganism. I sure feel like I've been suffering from severe brainfog all these years. Hearing vegan propaganda now feels like getting abducted by aliens :D

1
91c2e2a35e578e2e79ce7d631b753879

on May 17, 2011
at 05:31 PM

I have two vegetarian friends. One is an older man who simply thinks the very idea of eating meat is "gross." (He also thinks the smell of bacon frying is "nasty" but otherwise doesn't seem to be a danger to himself or society, so no one has tried to have him committed. Yet.) I can respect that a whole lot more than the friend who is a long-time vegetarian for health reasons. She'll carry on and on about how Americans are so fat because of all the fatty meat we consume (good gawd, don't even get her started on The China Study) and was thrilled when the new USDA dietary guidelines came out earlier this year because they endorsed a "more plant-based diet."

This friend, however, suffers from a multitude of health problems - reduced thyroid function, borderline diabetes, screamingly high triglycerides and such scary high blood pressure that she needs to carry nitroglycerine pills with her everywhere she goes - and she is only 52. But it's all genetic and heredity, you know; it couldn't be her diet. NEVER her diet.

I spend a lot of time going "mmmm-hmmm" and "you don't say" when she talks about her diet and her health.

1
60199d3a580a4e17969059609e48e678

on May 17, 2011
at 06:10 AM

I have vegetarian/vegan friends, they still talk to me but never about our diets. We respect that we are all different. We talk and hang out together on the basis that we have the same spiritual "bond" with nature, or at least we feel that we do so that keeps us off the topic of diet.

I do admit though, some of them are the most unhealthy people I know.... yet the perceive their selves to be healthy. but thats not because they don't eat meat, its because all they eat is "organic, vegan, vegetarian" junk food.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:21 PM

most, but not all, of the vegetarians I know certainly to not look healthy (if that means anything.)

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:32 AM

*edited cause it was a bit flamey towards vegans lol

1
345c1755efe005edd162b770dc6fb821

(8767)

on May 16, 2011
at 10:50 PM

There are certain topics that can lead to rather heated conversations especially by those who don't agree with you.

My tactic has always been passive aggressive, so while they may try to bate me into a discussion where they'll try to bully me, they are usually enjoying a primal/paleo appetizer or some other dish I've made for them and they are loving it.

I love turning the tables on them this way!!

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on May 17, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Your strategy with dealing with vegetarians/vegans is to feed them animals while they try to bully you??

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