0

votes

Raw Vegan arguments, what to reply?

Commented on November 18, 2013
Created November 16, 2013 at 5:56 PM

Where I live Raw Veganism is extremely popular and I am constantly confronted with it. Friends are even trying to convert me.

Now there where a few arguments I am not sure about and I wanted to ask if someone could help me out with some info or a few good links.

1. Cooking causes Leukocytosis and the body has to produce mucous in order to defend itself against harmful cooked foods.

2. The proteins from meat cling to our joints and cause arthritis and such.

3. My friend is convinced that her not being able to digest meat does not have anything to do with lacking stomach acid. She thinks her body does not want meat because it is bad.

4. Someone argued early humans did not cook at all, but I recently read that there is evidence some foods were cooked or seared.

If anyone could help out with these I would be very thankful.

My experience with raw foods (raw paleo) was not great at all. I looked aged and malnourished and started having the strangest reactions to food. My blood work also looked less than great. With cooked (not low carb) Paleo I have been doing the best by far. I even look younger.

Edit: And I just wanted to make it clear that we do not have heated debates, they tried to suggest raw vegan to me at first when they did not know how much I had improved on Paleo (I had many chronic illnesses). Although my friends are worried about claims like the above (which they found on Forums), they have considered eating some meat or animal products. So I was simply trying to gather some information from a "meat eating" source to hear the other side. We are all just interested in eating the healthiest way possible, no matter if Vegan or Paleo.

3fc95bca9e723edfbbb72b172798ab49

(1354)

on November 18, 2013
at 04:23 AM

Okay, I'll bite.

Ridicule is actually a fairly strong social tool. It lets the subject know that others find their views to be ridiculous. Ideally this causes the individual to give their views a second evaluation to see if they're really bullshit or not. In my experience being mocked and then puffing up your cheeks, grabbing your marbles and going home without first considering WHY you are being mocked is a sign of obstinance. I've had to catch myself on this at times.

The answer to your question? Surprisingly often.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 05:30 PM

@jake3_14 good point

00cd3b6f51530a6832fcda1712edbec3

(2411)

on November 17, 2013
at 05:20 PM

When's the last time you persuaded anyone of anything by mocking them?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 04:06 PM

Give them these links but first read a bunch of his posts to see if you believe them. I believe because science is sound. I went from SAD to paleo in a 6 month period. I took took blood sugar readings after eating al sorts of different foods. My sloppy & very limited "self-experiments" match his disciplined & detailed ones. http://eatingacademy.com/dr-peter-attia http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how-can-carbohydrate-restriction-be-healthy-if-it-means-limiting-natural-foods-like-fruits-and-vegetables

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:56 PM

When you comment such as this "Some low carb Paleos also write about mucous in the digestive tract being bad." .... it's best to provided a link.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:30 PM

Can I propose a potassium cyanide based diet? Should we all try that? (Yes, reductio ad absurdum.)

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:00 PM

I can't even vote down as far as I know. His comment simply did not apply because he misunderstood the situation thinking I want to provoke "heated arguments" with raw vegans when I just wanted these mysterious questions answered by someone who eats meat and therefore would know more about possible health risks.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:57 PM

I personally would think so too but some vegan propaganda (from Forums) has scared them into thinking certain foods are harmful.

And not everyone seems convinced by good results...my family thinks that Hashimoto's, Cervical Cancer and HPV, a pituitary tumor, elevated liver enzymes and more just disappeared on their own because I was lucky. ;)

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:51 PM

Not bashing, but it started out as them trying to teach me because they noticed I was eating meat. I told them I went on this diet for health reasons and they were convinced raw Veganism would be best for my health. But when I told them more and how even very bad conditions are gone now they wanted to hear more about it. The arguments I listed above is a concern they have. They have considered eating some meat, animal products or cooked foods again, but they are afraid of the harmful effects they learned about. I think they aren't fully sure if raw vegan is the only way to go.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:39 PM

Some low carb Paleos also write about mucous in the digestive tract being bad. I wish I would find a clear answer because some friends are dealing with digestive issues.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:05 AM

Additionally.. his comment "Why look for conformation bias to argue a predetermined argument like you are in a cult?" .... though a bit argumentative, has merit.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:03 AM

Why the down vote?

"Try raw vegan, eat the same calories as a raw vegan you do now on pale and then after a few months doing each judge how you feel."

Seems pretty reasonable. Life is your very own n=1 experiment... get on with it. See what works & what doesn't.

I avoid raw broc... that's about it. Nearly everything else I sometimes eat raw or sometimes cooked, depending on the situation, recipe or personal preference. I hate raw brussel sprouts. Works for me.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:01 AM

Why the down votes?

"Try raw vegan, eat the same calories as a raw vegan you do now on pale and then after a few months doing each judge how you feel."

Seems pretty reasonable. Life is your very own n=1 experiment... get on with it. See what works & what doesn't.

I avoid raw broc... that's about it. Nearly everything else I sometimes eat raw or sometimes cooked, depending on the situation, recipe or personal preference. I hate raw brussel sprouts. Works for me.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:53 AM

Are they truly "willing to learn" or do they just want to bash you and anything that isn't Raw Veganism?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:48 AM

I'm pretty sure that mucous is key to making parts our digestive track work.....

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:03 AM

I am trying to inform myself because my friends and me have adult conversations that don't escalate into biased arguments. They learn from me and I listen to their advice. I am always open to learn new things.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:02 AM

Right that is what I though too and I am thinking some foods may benefit raw while others are better cooked for nutrient absorption.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:01 AM

Thank you!!

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:01 AM

I also want to educate myself on the matter in the case they ask me about my eating habits again. But it does not escalate, just friendly exchange of information and they are willing to learn too.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:00 AM

So basically you are saying that this would only happen with leaky gut?

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 12:59 AM

Yes, my friend felt that mucous is a bad thing...but I just realized that our bodies also produce mucous to digest fiber!

She thinks she can't digest meat because of stomach problems.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 06:26 PM

Mucous. Totally necessary for not dehydrating. Err... not that I have studies on that. But I bet its the case.

  • 3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

    asked by

    (87)
  • Views
    2.2K
  • Last Activity
    1557D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

10 Answers

0
3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

on November 17, 2013
at 01:37 PM

I did not vote it down I can't vote, and the comment did not apply, because we don't "argue", we exchange information. My friends are interested in hearing the other side too, I care about their health so I wanted to give them some additonal info. I told them I was going to ask what the Paleo Community knows about these vegan arguments.

0
3fc95bca9e723edfbbb72b172798ab49

(1354)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:49 AM

HA! The line about protein clinging to joints sounds like it came from a bad chain email.

I totally heard that the fiber from spinach can cling to the base of the skull and is implied in diseases such as Alzheimer's.

Wow! Bull shit IS fun to spew everywhere!

00cd3b6f51530a6832fcda1712edbec3

(2411)

on November 17, 2013
at 05:20 PM

When's the last time you persuaded anyone of anything by mocking them?

0
F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:14 AM

I think you've answered your own question & your raw vegan friends have supplied the arguements against raw veganism

........

2. The proteins from meat cling to our joints and cause arthritis and such. <<<<< huh?

3. My friend is convinced that her not being able to digest meat does not have anything to do with lacking stomach acid. She thinks her body does not want meat because it is bad. <<<< Double huh?

.........

Ask them for links to real research papers that support these notions, not some vegan blog.

But these are real answers......

"My experience with raw foods (raw paleo) was not great at all. I looked aged and malnourished"

"I started having the strangest reactions to food." "My blood work also looked less than great."

"With cooked (not low carb) Paleo I have been doing the best by far. I even look younger."

It's hard to argue with good results.

People think that my paleo eating is bad / odd. But they comment that I look better & younger. And they are truly speechless when I tell them I lost 30 lbs & dropped 3" off my waist.

Like I said, it's hard to argue with good results. :)

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:57 PM

I personally would think so too but some vegan propaganda (from Forums) has scared them into thinking certain foods are harmful.

And not everyone seems convinced by good results...my family thinks that Hashimoto's, Cervical Cancer and HPV, a pituitary tumor, elevated liver enzymes and more just disappeared on their own because I was lucky. ;)

0
Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

on November 16, 2013
at 11:57 PM

Find the healthiest, longest living populations on Earth. Do they cook? Of course they do. Do they consume animal products? Absolutely.

But there are merits to eating raw foods, and I think it's one area that the Paleo community doesn't address very often (although we certainly like our "super-raw" fermented veggies).

I think the question for me is, how much of my diet should be cooked vs raw? Going 100% either way doesn't sound very ancestral.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:02 AM

Right that is what I though too and I am thinking some foods may benefit raw while others are better cooked for nutrient absorption.

0
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 09:58 PM

Give them these links from Denise Minger :

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/03/08/what-is-the-optimal-diet-for-humans-part/

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/03/18/what-is-the-optimal-diet-for-humans-part-2/

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:01 AM

Thank you!!

0
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 09:28 PM

Why look for conformation bias to argue a predetermined argument like you are in a cult?

Try raw vegan, eat the same calories as a raw vegan you do now on pale and then after a few months doing each judge how you fee.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:03 AM

I am trying to inform myself because my friends and me have adult conversations that don't escalate into biased arguments. They learn from me and I listen to their advice. I am always open to learn new things.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 02:01 AM

Why the down votes?

"Try raw vegan, eat the same calories as a raw vegan you do now on pale and then after a few months doing each judge how you feel."

Seems pretty reasonable. Life is your very own n=1 experiment... get on with it. See what works & what doesn't.

I avoid raw broc... that's about it. Nearly everything else I sometimes eat raw or sometimes cooked, depending on the situation, recipe or personal preference. I hate raw brussel sprouts. Works for me.

0
Medium avatar

(238)

on November 16, 2013
at 09:17 PM

Exactly why should you care what they think or tell you?

Let them eat it raw and you continue cooking food as you like it. Obviously you eat salad raw and fruit, but enjoy your seared steak and salmon, etc.

Just repeat the following if you must talk about the subject with them.

"With cooked (not low carb) Paleo I have been doing the best by far. I even look younger."

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:01 AM

I also want to educate myself on the matter in the case they ask me about my eating habits again. But it does not escalate, just friendly exchange of information and they are willing to learn too.

0
F00050d678de2dc749a86b4d3f2ffc0c

on November 16, 2013
at 09:16 PM

There is a ton of conflicting information all across the net, but one documentary I watched this morning has some hints as to how eating meat instead of vegetables has helped our evolution dramatically, especially cooked meat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKP9ru_G5vk

Then do your own research from points made in the video. It has long been scientifically accepted by many that one huge leap in our intelligence from other primates happened when we started to eat meat.

On your other statement about how you looked on a raw diet, I completely agree. The vast majority of raw vegans/raw foodists/fruititarians ect. is that they look aged and unhealthy. Even though most are skinny, they look "meth addict" skinny, not a healthy skinny. Now I have a marketing firm that specializes in online marketing and I have the know-how and tools to check trends. I have done some research on how society views raw vegans and there are many more negative adjectives used to describe them than positive (old, pale, sick, unhealthy). I try to stay out of all the intense arguments about this topic, but to me it seems the only ones who think raw vegans look healthy are other raw vegans.

0
1f44266dfd604b881b35a04254e85e8a

on November 16, 2013
at 06:41 PM

I'm not expert but when did we invent fire? I'd say cooking began there.

Also, the proteins in meat "sticking to joints" may probably occur. But why would they get around our bodies in the first place? LEAKY GUT!! Think of any protein, bacterotoxins, white blood cells leaking out. They are focusing on a symptom and not the cause.

It all comes down to playing with raw veganism vs ancestral diets and pay attention to the difference. The proof is in the pudding and not some doctrine.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:00 AM

So basically you are saying that this would only happen with leaky gut?

0
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on November 16, 2013
at 06:13 PM

  1. Who says it does cause leukocytosis? And why is that necessarily a bad thing? Mucous sounds icky therefore it's bad, that's their logic I think.
  2. We don't absorb intact proteins.
  3. How has she determined she cannot digest meat? I'm pretty sure she's never seen meat in the toilet after eating it. I'm however pretty sure she's seen plant matter in there.
  4. If you go back far enough, pre-humans weren't cooking. But eventually we evolved into the cooking ape. Heck, if you go back far enough, we obtained energy via direct photosynthesis…

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:48 AM

I'm pretty sure that mucous is key to making parts our digestive track work.....

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 01:39 PM

Some low carb Paleos also write about mucous in the digestive tract being bad. I wish I would find a clear answer because some friends are dealing with digestive issues.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 06:26 PM

Mucous. Totally necessary for not dehydrating. Err... not that I have studies on that. But I bet its the case.

3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

(87)

on November 17, 2013
at 12:59 AM

Yes, my friend felt that mucous is a bad thing...but I just realized that our bodies also produce mucous to digest fiber!

She thinks she can't digest meat because of stomach problems.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!