7

votes

How do you guys deal with sweets, and vegans?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created February 13, 2011 at 7:09 PM

So, I have a sweet tooth...Going 'paleo' has sort of enhanced that craving. Whenever my mother sends me cookies, I gobble them down within 2 days. Same thing at work. Being on such a low sugar diet makes me cave into sweets that much easier when they're around. At the same time I'm not eating maybe 1/20th of the sugar I did before I went down the paleo path, still, it's almost impossible to fight the urge. Anyone else have that problem.

As for vegans, my friend is vegan. Now, aside from his whole argument about the moral inconsistency of killing cattle and chicken but domesticating dogs and cats, what is the argument for meat? I just want some fuel here. He tells me all that he lacks is B12, and since the body doesn't need much of it, eating meat once a year should fill that void for him. He takes a supplement of course, but that's not all there is, right? I know animal meats provide us with healthy fats, but can anyone help me back that up with scientific evidence? Feel free to flame me for not looking for the answers myself, I just wanted to finally post a question and be involved in the site.

Thanks!

1fc9c11cf23b2f62ac78979de933ad83

(2435)

on July 21, 2011
at 04:56 PM

You're lucky the cookies lasted you 2 days. They'd last me 2 hours.

D0a103cafaf4768c6dc69b1772a55877

(421)

on March 03, 2011
at 08:18 PM

BWHAHAHAHHA!!! to both!

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on February 15, 2011
at 05:36 PM

I think The Vegetarian Myth is a greta book - I wish I could get all the vegetarians and vegans I know to read it. I wouldn't say she was strident necessarily but she is clearly someone slightly prone towards fanaticism (a pre-requisite of being a vegan in the first place I'd have thought) so she's now a bit evangelical the other way!

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:53 AM

I have absolutely no trouble throwing away rubbish. I think you need to have a frank and honest talk with your mother and politely tell her she is sabotaging your efforts. I'm sure she wouldn't want to consciously do that. If she wants to send you something, send jerky or something suitable. Don't try to "paleoize" crap, it's still just crap.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:42 AM

I find "optimal health" to BE a simple pleasure in life.. When my body feels and moves swiftly and powerfully, isn't bloated or lethargic then I revel in the joy of it and would no more consider poisoning it than I would consider putting sewerage in my cars fuel tank.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:00 AM

Friend, is there any way to upvote you once per pun / play on words? Because I totally would. Good job, I'm laughing my arse off here, and totally would sign up to be a proud PERV!

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:26 PM

mmmmm, sour patch kids...8)

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:21 PM

Something similar happens with me, but I think it's more with sugar in general. I can smell my coworker's maple-flavored oatmeal in the morning. I can also smell candy, which is still weird to me..8)

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Thanks for the response. I'm doing my best. I honestly don't buy sweets, I don't bake cakes or cookies, and I don't have any bags of sugar in the apartment. Still, hard to throw away food when my mother sends me some. In her defense, she made chocolate macaroons, with some natural chocolate stuff, walnuts, dried cranberry and large organic coconut shavings. It's not like she sent me sour patch kids.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:56 PM

I avoided it for months. When I'd visit home though my relatives would spoil me with bad food.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:33 PM

Funny, one of the Vegans that was arguing with me is named Dana. Anyway, had a short spat of messages with them, and in the end their diet isn't the important thing to them, it's their moral consistency. This is the argument that goes back and forth, that I'll basically have to ignore if I want to continue respecting them as friends. They talk to me like I hate animals, like I have no respect for them. They actually tell me that my moral-consciousness is lacking. Yet the openly kill insects. I'm done making my point to them.

C0887358ae041723ba426a6ad4732cfc

on February 14, 2011
at 05:03 AM

Be careful when eating vegans. They may claim to eat grass, but most get finished off by grains.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:15 AM

Frozen berries will not resolve a sweet tooth. While better than even most fruits. It's still fructose and will still trigger most people.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:14 AM

Opiate switch... It goes away with time off the sugar/wheat etc.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:12 AM

Just because they're less educated, doesn't make em any more accurate. I've seen incredibly few vegs I'd possibly admit are thriving, I've heard of exactly 0 that are doing it without supplementation.

5d0283f9cf2480374a0b7df56b7f3d9b

(418)

on February 14, 2011
at 03:19 AM

I'm reading the vegetarian myth right now and it's awesome! (and yes probably a little strident, but I don't this that's always negative).

A6e2b231f69366ce825476c5a6dcfff6

(1967)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:36 AM

give peas a chance

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:30 AM

I'm usually all for usurping gender expectations, but I just don't see it here. The caveat that it's strident isn't shooting her down, just making a potential reader aware that the book is going to aggressively challenge their beliefs, and not tiptoe around anything. Knowing that going in is important, and valuable - especially if you're going to use the book to engage in conversation with a vegan.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:29 AM

I'm usually all for usurping gender expectations, but I just don't see it here. The caveat that it's strident isn't shooting her down, just making a potential reader away that the book is going to aggressively challenge their beliefs, and not tiptoe around anything. Knowing that going in is important, and valuable - especially if you're going to use the book to engage in conversation with a vegan.

65660697ed243c7980725fd014eb00e0

(494)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:20 AM

I agree that changing your way of thinking is the most important part. Most days it's all about the positive self-talk. Occasionally though it's all about the chocolate. ;)

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Yeah, I'm coming to understand that as I read the other answers. I'm just wired such that I can easily turn off my desire for a particular food when I want to. Something goes on in my head where I negate the desire to enjoy the taste of something by seeing that regardless of how good it feels, "I" don't actually want to eat it. I do have a huge sweet tooth as well though, in that I actually enjoy sweets immensely.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:17 AM

Yeah, I'm coming to understand that as I read the other answers. I'm just wired such that I can easily turn off my desire for a particular food when I want to. Something goes on in my head where I negate the desire to enjoy the taste of something by seeing that regardless of how good it feels "I" don't actually want to eat it. I do have a huge sweet tooth as well though, in that I actually *enjoy* sweets immensely.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:03 AM

How long ago did you start avoiding gluten and sugar?

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:03 AM

Or maybe the book is just strident, since it is a controversial subject written in a blunt and straightforward manner, and might "command attention in a loud way or [prominent] way" (definition courtesy of Merriam-Webster) whether or not it was written by a male or a female?

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on February 14, 2011
at 01:38 AM

I am so this way - I have to do cold turkey on sweets; there is no halfway or little bit, or I'm on the carb craving roller coaster (and ready to toss my - *ahem* - cookies) alllll over again.

F9a0b72f38860d7601afd5a45bb53394

(3618)

on February 14, 2011
at 01:14 AM

How come every time a woman expresses an opinion not amended with some version of "I'm sorry" and/or "this is just my opinion," she's slapped with the strident label? I dunno, maybe Keith is. I haven't read her book yet, only encountered her on Facebook. But seriously, letting a guy run his mouth and not labeling him, yet shooting down any woman with a backbone, is neither cool nor Paleo. They couldn't afford to waste half the species like that.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on February 14, 2011
at 12:59 AM

"When I eat lowcarb, I can also actually smell carbs from long distances. My senses are heightened." wow. you just described how i feel so very very perfectly...and no one that i try to explain this to understands.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 13, 2011
at 10:32 PM

Nobody's going to flame you. I think it's great that you're wanting to become actively involved in this community. I feel the same way; there's a warm sense of camaraderie here that I can't find anywhere else. :)

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:15 PM

Yep, it's the cravings that are the killer, worse than just not eating the sweet in the first place. Why not just eat a little bit of the cocaine? It's just a little.. won't hurt you much.. ;-)

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:13 PM

Prob is that for some, eating sweets daily causes powerful cravings all day long for more sweets. Fighting the cravings is miserable. Avoidng the cravings is one of the main reasons I do paleo in the first place. ONce in a while, I will eat something sweet when it is very high quality like homemade. But eating them daily would be disaster.Eating fat and protein does little to blunt insulin rush and nothing to blunt cravings. You may just have to be a recovering sugar addict to really understand the problem.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:07 PM

yes, im the same. ill allow myself some cake at my kids birthday parties, but my kids are only three weeks apart with the superbowl in the middle. ive pretty much spent this past month on that roller coaster and i hate it! cant anyone make this headache go away?!?!

Medium avatar

(39831)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:05 PM

They're not really pertinent facts though. We don't kill and eat carnivores because toxins increase as they move up the food chain. It's much more dangerous to eat a shark compared to a salmon. There's no long history of carnivore-consumption, or veganism for that matter. They both occurred no doubt, but as a tiny percentage of the whole and thus are inconsistent with our design.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:42 PM

It's not that I want to change him, I simply want to be able to defend my side, since he brings up a lot of facts to support his.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Loving chocolate and candy isn't bad, and denying yourself it doesn't make you good. Food is amoral. I love chocolate, too, and eat it several times a week (1-2 blocks versus 1-2 bars, like how I used to be). I think you're doing great, seriously! :) Giving up the sugar addiction is HARD. I've been there, too. I'm spoilt and hate ignoring cravings (sometimes it's near impossible to pry the chocolate out of my fingers, and I won't give it up without a fight >D), but I promise, the cravings will get smaller and fewer. Good luck! :)

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:12 PM

I know they're not optimal fuel, but I love them. I've been getting better about moderation, and I maybe have sweets in the house like once a month, but I seriously love chocolate and candy. I know it's bad, and I'm pretty good about it, I'll ust have to learn to ignore the craving.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:52 PM

As a former vegetarian, the fact that a vegan *needs* to supplement, or that the vegan diet isn't optimal, will be scoffed at. Many vegans and vegetarians have accepted that it isn't "optimal", but it's still healthier than the norm and preferable for personal, ethical reasons. There are plenty of people thriving without animal flesh.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Toxins. Goitrogens, Phytoestrogens, Excess Fructose, etc. Sufficient Calories... Other vitamins/minerals. D3, K2 etc. a Veg*n NEEDS to supplement, that should point out the error right there.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:37 PM

Thanks for the info. I need to do some reading I suppose. Still, the only negative I'm seeing is incomplete proteins from plants and soy. I'll keep on readin.

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17 Answers

12
74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:58 PM

As far as your cookie binges go, I think it's because you're viewing Paleo as something that's depriving you, rather than something that's giving you an incredible gift: health.

You're inhaling those cookies because you know they're "forbidden" on Paleo, and you're denying yourself the dubious pleasure of eating them. I wouldn't be surprised if you're telling yourself things like, "Okay, after these cookies, I'm never gonna eat another one again," or, "I better eat them up quickly so the temptation is gone sooner."

You need to change your way of thinking, and approach it like, "I'm electing to not eat these cookies because they are detrimental to my health. If I truly wanted to eat one, I fully permit myself to do so, but I acknowledge that they are not optimal fuel for my body." After awhile, you'll start to notice how rubbish those cookies make you feel, and you'll choose not to eat them, versus bingeing on them in one sitting because they are forbidden and you think you can have nary a cookie ever again. You're allowed to eat anything you so wish, but you're choosing not to eat them for yourself.

Good luck! :)

65660697ed243c7980725fd014eb00e0

(494)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:20 AM

I agree that changing your way of thinking is the most important part. Most days it's all about the positive self-talk. Occasionally though it's all about the chocolate. ;)

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:12 PM

I know they're not optimal fuel, but I love them. I've been getting better about moderation, and I maybe have sweets in the house like once a month, but I seriously love chocolate and candy. I know it's bad, and I'm pretty good about it, I'll ust have to learn to ignore the craving.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Loving chocolate and candy isn't bad, and denying yourself it doesn't make you good. Food is amoral. I love chocolate, too, and eat it several times a week (1-2 blocks versus 1-2 bars, like how I used to be). I think you're doing great, seriously! :) Giving up the sugar addiction is HARD. I've been there, too. I'm spoilt and hate ignoring cravings (sometimes it's near impossible to pry the chocolate out of my fingers, and I won't give it up without a fight >D), but I promise, the cravings will get smaller and fewer. Good luck! :)

11
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:32 PM

Sweets ? I don't eat them. But I didn't pre-paleo either so YMMV. Vegans ? I'd eat them, but only if I knew where they've been.

C0887358ae041723ba426a6ad4732cfc

on February 14, 2011
at 05:03 AM

Be careful when eating vegans. They may claim to eat grass, but most get finished off by grains.

D0a103cafaf4768c6dc69b1772a55877

(421)

on March 03, 2011
at 08:18 PM

BWHAHAHAHHA!!! to both!

6
0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

on February 13, 2011
at 07:56 PM

I always find that eating something sweet (I used to do low-carb, so not just a paleo issue) restarted my cravings all over again, and I'd have to go through that withdrawal again and again. Not everyone is this way! But for me, I just have to stop eating sweet things, and then I stop wanting them. Continuing to occasionally eat sweets would be torture for me - a roller coaster of craving, indulging, denying, craving, indulging... nope.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:15 PM

Yep, it's the cravings that are the killer, worse than just not eating the sweet in the first place. Why not just eat a little bit of the cocaine? It's just a little.. won't hurt you much.. ;-)

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on February 14, 2011
at 01:38 AM

I am so this way - I have to do cold turkey on sweets; there is no halfway or little bit, or I'm on the carb craving roller coaster (and ready to toss my - *ahem* - cookies) alllll over again.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:07 PM

yes, im the same. ill allow myself some cake at my kids birthday parties, but my kids are only three weeks apart with the superbowl in the middle. ive pretty much spent this past month on that roller coaster and i hate it! cant anyone make this headache go away?!?!

5
1f96ce108240f19345c05704c7709dad

(1061)

on February 14, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Join PERV - It's a HOOT!

People for the Ethical Regard of Vegetables

  • How would you like to be separated from your nether regions, plunged into a boiling cauldron of oil or water and then eaten?

  • How would you like to have your genitalia cut off and used to decorate churches, houses and the bosoms of human females?

  • How would you like to have your unborn children put in a mill and ground up over the corpses of related species?

  • How would you like to have your head cut off so that people can play football on you?

  • And it???s a matter of your own health. Do you realise that leguminous vegetables such as peas and beans fix deadly nitrogen from the air, which could give you cancer?

Act now! Send a large cheque to the Number Watch Cayman Island account to become a member of PERV. In return you will receive a free catalogue of synthetised proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins and fibre (no fat, of course) with price list. Leave the flowers where they are in the field. You know it makes scents.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/2002%20February.htm

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:00 AM

Friend, is there any way to upvote you once per pun / play on words? Because I totally would. Good job, I'm laughing my arse off here, and totally would sign up to be a proud PERV!

5
8fe757cdfec5e45d6c8d2e71380355fc

on February 13, 2011
at 10:14 PM

re veganism- the vegetarian myth, by lierre keith, is a bit strident, but - written by an ex-vegan with 20 years of veganism iirc - deals with the ethical arguments head on. veganism rests on a foundation of industrial agriculture, mostly row crop soybeans, which tears up the landscape and destroys local ecologies, and which requires the input of either petrochemical-based fertilizers or animal products. paleo and similar eating patterns are expressions of our place within a global ecology.

5d0283f9cf2480374a0b7df56b7f3d9b

(418)

on February 14, 2011
at 03:19 AM

I'm reading the vegetarian myth right now and it's awesome! (and yes probably a little strident, but I don't this that's always negative).

F9a0b72f38860d7601afd5a45bb53394

(3618)

on February 14, 2011
at 01:14 AM

How come every time a woman expresses an opinion not amended with some version of "I'm sorry" and/or "this is just my opinion," she's slapped with the strident label? I dunno, maybe Keith is. I haven't read her book yet, only encountered her on Facebook. But seriously, letting a guy run his mouth and not labeling him, yet shooting down any woman with a backbone, is neither cool nor Paleo. They couldn't afford to waste half the species like that.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:29 AM

I'm usually all for usurping gender expectations, but I just don't see it here. The caveat that it's strident isn't shooting her down, just making a potential reader away that the book is going to aggressively challenge their beliefs, and not tiptoe around anything. Knowing that going in is important, and valuable - especially if you're going to use the book to engage in conversation with a vegan.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:03 AM

Or maybe the book is just strident, since it is a controversial subject written in a blunt and straightforward manner, and might "command attention in a loud way or [prominent] way" (definition courtesy of Merriam-Webster) whether or not it was written by a male or a female?

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on February 15, 2011
at 05:36 PM

I think The Vegetarian Myth is a greta book - I wish I could get all the vegetarians and vegans I know to read it. I wouldn't say she was strident necessarily but she is clearly someone slightly prone towards fanaticism (a pre-requisite of being a vegan in the first place I'd have thought) so she's now a bit evangelical the other way!

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:30 AM

I'm usually all for usurping gender expectations, but I just don't see it here. The caveat that it's strident isn't shooting her down, just making a potential reader aware that the book is going to aggressively challenge their beliefs, and not tiptoe around anything. Knowing that going in is important, and valuable - especially if you're going to use the book to engage in conversation with a vegan.

4
65660697ed243c7980725fd014eb00e0

(494)

on February 14, 2011
at 03:59 AM

I used to be the girl who could bake a cake and eat the entire thing in a day. Cake was my downfall. I didn't have a limit on cake and just like Eva, the more I ate, the more I had to have. Two weeks ago, I couldn't finish the cupcake I decided to indulge in for my birthday. It was just too sweet. I never in a million years thought I'd become the girl who would happily just say no to cake.

When I first went paleo, I felt very limited. I wanted to be able to remain true to my decision to eat clean, but some days I just wanted to rebel and test the limits. I'd "paleo-ize" recipes, but nothing ever tasted as good as the real thing (muffins, pizza, etc). It wasn't until I decided to just embrace my choice to be healthy that it became easier. Most of the time it's just about your attitude. Once I stopped beating around the bush and cut sugar out completely, I was much better off physiologically.

I've been paleo for almost six months. In the last month or two I've noticed that my palette has adapted to the foods I eat. In regard to indulgences, I've found that I had to adapt to what properly satiates my palette. Sweets no longer taste the same to me and a tiny amount of heavy whipping cream in my coffee is usually the sweetest thing I have. Occasionally coconut milk ice cream or "clean" cheesecake (aka not store bought with hfcs) is a great treat.

Now that my palette has changed so much though, the thing I am most aware of is that sweets still sound good. It's the tempt, not the taste. I remember how good they were and that's where the craving comes from. It's all psychological. So if I choose to indulge, I make it worth the effort. I wouldn't mindlessly eat the most amazing grass-fed sirloin. I'd take my time with it and enjoy it. I treat my indulgences the same way. When I eat consciously, it's a lot harder to make bad choices. It also becomes a lot easier to say "Hey, this cupcake really isn't as great as I expected it to be. I'm going to throw the rest of it away" or "Wow, this espresso chocolate chip cookie is mind-blowing and I'm going to enjoy the whole thing."

For me, taking full responsibility for all of my food choices makes eating clean so much easier. If I make the wrong choice, I don't beat myself up over it. I just work that much harder to make better choices the next time. You just have to find what works best for you. Patience and time is helpful too. Good luck!

4
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:26 PM

I think often, the sweet binges are biological. Often, if I just do one or two bites, then I can stop right there without too much cravings. But if I eat a whole slice of cake, then the craving desire kicks in. Then it becomes much harder to stop. If I do a second slice, then I will be thinking of the damned cake all day, waiting in there, just asking me to eat a third slice... Starting from the first bite, the slope becomes slipperier and slipperier the farther I fall. But if I eat none at all, I forget about the cake in a few seconds and it's all over. So I don't think this is about me thinking I am deprived. If it was purely about thinking I was deprived, the craving should go down after eating some, not rocketing through the roof! I suspect people who assume it's all psychological simply do not experience this and so don't understand it. THere seems to be a threshold and I have to stay on one side of it to remain safe. Strawberries are not enough to trigger it. Bananas may sometimes if eat them too often. Cake will do it reliably and quickly and so will straight sugar granules. When I eat lowcarb, I can also actually smell carbs from long distances. My senses are heightened. I have known to often say say at work, "SOmeone is preparing carbohyrdates.. smells like.. potatoes!" And with my sense of smell heightened, good quality tasty carbs like potatoes or homemade pumpkin pie will actually taste 3 times better than they ever did before, which I think also contributes to binging.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on February 14, 2011
at 12:59 AM

"When I eat lowcarb, I can also actually smell carbs from long distances. My senses are heightened." wow. you just described how i feel so very very perfectly...and no one that i try to explain this to understands.

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:21 PM

Something similar happens with me, but I think it's more with sugar in general. I can smell my coworker's maple-flavored oatmeal in the morning. I can also smell candy, which is still weird to me..8)

3
666de0361be572857ebec0d2ed02674e

on February 13, 2011
at 11:09 PM

As far as your vegan friend goes, I'm with the person who said it is a religion. However, just for fun, you can remind him that many creatures are killed during the harvesting of grains and vegetables, and that the transport involved uses fuel that are obtained using methods that can decimate an entire ecosystem, blah, blah, blah...

I wouldn't even bother unless he is always in your face about it, though.

As far as the sugar cravings go -- the only thing that works for me is to not EVER eat it. I also stay away from starchy veggies and only eat fruit on occasion. It doesn't take much for me to get those cravings. I'd rather just not ever eat sugar and not have to deal with it.

2
F9a0b72f38860d7601afd5a45bb53394

(3618)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:56 AM

Sweets: This is not gonna be a popular answer but as part of that 80/20 thing, be willing to experiment with artificial sweeteners that agree with you, or at least stevia. The idea that using the stuff makes you crave more sweets is totally bogus, at least in my experience. Actually, I'm at the point I can't stand to eat or drink large amounts of sugar anymore and I don't even want them. Then again, I was always more of a savory snacker--think potato chips and the like. The only regular sweet I had in my diet was soda. I can't do that now, it makes me sick--and thank Ceiling Cat, too, 'cause the stuff was killing me.

There are scads of Paleo recipe blogs and sites out there and some of them have fabulous dessert recipes. I just got done drooling over one last night, it's here: Health-Bent. The main blogger's a former pastry chef. She includes sugar in her recipes and gives her reasons why, but you can try substitutes if you're willing to prep and bake for yourself.

Vegans: I agree with the other people here who say don't bother with him if he is not constantly in your face. But off the top of my head here's what you're missing if you're vegan:

Vitamin A (beta carotene is not vitamin A and not everyone can convert it, even healthy people)

Vitamin D3 (you can get D2 from mushrooms but again, you must convert it)

Vitamin K2 (only K1 is in plant foods and--guess what)

Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin is NOT proper B12 and will wreck your ability to uptake the real stuff)

PLUS, any minerals you get with plant foods are usually chelated or otherwise bound up with some other compound some way where your body has to work harder to get at them.

This is nothing to play around with. I'm realizing, the more I read about this stuff, that our current requirements for micronutrient intake in the U.S. are based on the dietary needs of people who live on Neolithic disease agents--where the authorities will admit we need the nutrients in question. You have to go to alternative sources to learn about some of these nutrients at all. I had to discover the Weston Price Foundation just to understand that the reason my face is crooked and I had to have two different orthodontic treatments as a kid is because my mom probably didn't get enough K2 in her diet. Wish I'd known all that before I had my two kids.

Vegans will weed themselves out of the gene pool eventually if they never change their minds. Too bad they're going to take so many with them who don't know any better, including their own children, like that baby I heard about years ago who starved because all his parents would feed him was soy milk. Poor little guy. But it's just as bad to impose many years of malnutrition, in a way.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:33 PM

Funny, one of the Vegans that was arguing with me is named Dana. Anyway, had a short spat of messages with them, and in the end their diet isn't the important thing to them, it's their moral consistency. This is the argument that goes back and forth, that I'll basically have to ignore if I want to continue respecting them as friends. They talk to me like I hate animals, like I have no respect for them. They actually tell me that my moral-consciousness is lacking. Yet the openly kill insects. I'm done making my point to them.

2
Medium avatar

on February 13, 2011
at 08:08 PM

You could try first substituting fruit, then low-fructose fruit such as raspberries and strawberries, then sweet potato.

As for veganism, it's religion, not science. You'll not succeed in using science to sway a Christian toward atheism, so why try to sway your friend away from his religion? Just let him be and he will eventually find the right path on his own. I should know, I had a vegan diet for 8 years. For me however it wasn't morality but health I was after. Obviously I bought into the lipid hypothesis and was convinced that it would make me healthier. No such luck. I was at my fattest point as a vegan; I'm now at my leanest point. The best way to get through to people with regard to diet is for them to see how happy and vigorous you are. If they are flabby, depressed and sick all the time they will either suspend disbelief indefinitely or wake up and change.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 08:42 PM

It's not that I want to change him, I simply want to be able to defend my side, since he brings up a lot of facts to support his.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:05 PM

They're not really pertinent facts though. We don't kill and eat carnivores because toxins increase as they move up the food chain. It's much more dangerous to eat a shark compared to a salmon. There's no long history of carnivore-consumption, or veganism for that matter. They both occurred no doubt, but as a tiny percentage of the whole and thus are inconsistent with our design.

1
D04cf109e443df341633847c0fd739d2

on February 14, 2011
at 06:57 AM

At first, it helped me to give away sweets that landed on me, so I did get something out of it. People are really happy to get free cookies.

RE: Vegan--look, people can get by on almost anything, that is one of the reasons people have been successful animals on the planet. There are volumes of books supporting a vegan diet, as well as the paleo diet. Why bother getting into it with someone. He is only going to tell you that people used to get b12 from eating a bit of dirt (and the "stuff" that is in it) that we don't get anymore due to sanitary practices. They will tell you gorillas are vegans (well, they eat bugs and bug eggs that are stuck to the leaves, but whatever). I doubt you will ever have a productive conversation with this person.

Perhaps it is better to find common ground. Eating whole foods is key, yes...

1
86e631c6164bfdf4221434e2d38125b3

(414)

on February 13, 2011
at 11:37 PM

I feel your pain! I hate sugar and love it so much at the same time. It's really been a battle for me. When I first went Paleo in the fall, it was part of a competition I was doing. I'm super-competitive, so I stuck to no sugar and it was good.

I have found that if I give myself an inch, I gobble up the mile. I just hate that, and I hate being weak, but I know that's what's going to happen. I have to completely stay away from sweets to maintain my control.

One thing I try to do when I'm around delicious junk is to remind myself about all the chemicals and crap those things are made of. I also try silently judging everyone eating it, and reminding myself how hard I worked for my muscles. Not the nicest thing, but it's silent. :)

And sometimes, I just eat it. Nobody's perfect, and we're all doing the best we can. Good luck!

ETA: something that helps me maintain my resolve is this: Every time you're about to eat sugar, just tell yourself "I don't want to burn any fat for the next few hours."

It's a good motivator!

1
4f135301ab317e1b7b75ade9d25a4dad

on February 13, 2011
at 10:05 PM

What about killing veggies? Could be similarly immoral.

A6e2b231f69366ce825476c5a6dcfff6

(1967)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:36 AM

give peas a chance

0
5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on February 14, 2011
at 08:20 AM

Wow, reading the question and then the flood or replies just shows how far these insidious non-foods have gotten their claws into some people. But really, why think about it, I'm sure you don't think about heroin, cocaine, meth-amphetamine etc, (well maybe some people do) so why waste time and effort thinking about sugar and all its permutations? You wouldn't be of the attitude of "I'll just have a little bit of heroin and then stop", so why have "a little bit of cake or a cookie then I'll stop"? I'll bet you don't smoke either. You know dangerous smoking is, you have made a conscious decision you won't do that to your body. Stay strong, stay the course and your body will thank you. For not smoking and not eating crap..

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Thanks for the response. I'm doing my best. I honestly don't buy sweets, I don't bake cakes or cookies, and I don't have any bags of sugar in the apartment. Still, hard to throw away food when my mother sends me some. In her defense, she made chocolate macaroons, with some natural chocolate stuff, walnuts, dried cranberry and large organic coconut shavings. It's not like she sent me sour patch kids.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:53 AM

I have absolutely no trouble throwing away rubbish. I think you need to have a frank and honest talk with your mother and politely tell her she is sabotaging your efforts. I'm sure she wouldn't want to consciously do that. If she wants to send you something, send jerky or something suitable. Don't try to "paleoize" crap, it's still just crap.

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on February 14, 2011
at 05:26 PM

mmmmm, sour patch kids...8)

0
E4b155f898e209391902792ec3c005f3

(220)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:51 PM

If your mind is telling you it's time to eat something sweet, eat something filling and paleo that's not salty/savory in flavor. Cream/yogurt, coconut, avocado, frozen berries, cocoa powder, all help to trick your sweet tooth into being satisfied without going astray.

My first few months I was still into sweets, more of a mental habit than anything else. I went through a lot of dark chocolate, and sometimes yogurt/cream over frozen berries. Now I'm used to regarding sweets as no "food" anymore than margarine or bread would be, and it's no trouble.

As far as Veganism, if somebody is that far gone to have convinced themselves that a human is not a natural carnivore, for the most part logic will be wasted on them. I make it a point to prove otherwise by ordering/cooking the fattest, rarest cuts of meat I can get and by casually eating the fish head, chicken bones, etc that are left over on the table.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:15 AM

Frozen berries will not resolve a sweet tooth. While better than even most fruits. It's still fructose and will still trigger most people.

0
902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:55 PM

80/20 rule. Let yourself eat something sweet and totally non-paleo every day, but be very deliberate about when, what, and how much. Always eat it as part of a meal, with fat/protein/fiber to blunt the impact of the sugar. Whats the point of "optimal" health without the simple pleasures in life?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:14 AM

Opiate switch... It goes away with time off the sugar/wheat etc.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on February 15, 2011
at 01:42 AM

I find "optimal health" to BE a simple pleasure in life.. When my body feels and moves swiftly and powerfully, isn't bloated or lethargic then I revel in the joy of it and would no more consider poisoning it than I would consider putting sewerage in my cars fuel tank.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Yeah, I'm coming to understand that as I read the other answers. I'm just wired such that I can easily turn off my desire for a particular food when I want to. Something goes on in my head where I negate the desire to enjoy the taste of something by seeing that regardless of how good it feels, "I" don't actually want to eat it. I do have a huge sweet tooth as well though, in that I actually enjoy sweets immensely.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 14, 2011
at 02:17 AM

Yeah, I'm coming to understand that as I read the other answers. I'm just wired such that I can easily turn off my desire for a particular food when I want to. Something goes on in my head where I negate the desire to enjoy the taste of something by seeing that regardless of how good it feels "I" don't actually want to eat it. I do have a huge sweet tooth as well though, in that I actually *enjoy* sweets immensely.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on February 13, 2011
at 09:13 PM

Prob is that for some, eating sweets daily causes powerful cravings all day long for more sweets. Fighting the cravings is miserable. Avoidng the cravings is one of the main reasons I do paleo in the first place. ONce in a while, I will eat something sweet when it is very high quality like homemade. But eating them daily would be disaster.Eating fat and protein does little to blunt insulin rush and nothing to blunt cravings. You may just have to be a recovering sugar addict to really understand the problem.

0
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on February 13, 2011
at 07:22 PM

as for the sugar, it takes several weeks of none to get over them, then they get too sweet, and are no longer as appealing. I believe it has to do with bacterial die-off.

as for the vegans... there are so many resources I dont know where to begin.

http://beyondveg.com/ does some nice breakdowns.

Being able to live is not adequate, Failure to Thrive is the main issue with nothing but Veggies. not to mention toxin load.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Toxins. Goitrogens, Phytoestrogens, Excess Fructose, etc. Sufficient Calories... Other vitamins/minerals. D3, K2 etc. a Veg*n NEEDS to supplement, that should point out the error right there.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:37 PM

Thanks for the info. I need to do some reading I suppose. Still, the only negative I'm seeing is incomplete proteins from plants and soy. I'll keep on readin.

902a7cd8f96bbc917a04e92b1f49dbd7

(787)

on February 13, 2011
at 07:52 PM

As a former vegetarian, the fact that a vegan *needs* to supplement, or that the vegan diet isn't optimal, will be scoffed at. Many vegans and vegetarians have accepted that it isn't "optimal", but it's still healthier than the norm and preferable for personal, ethical reasons. There are plenty of people thriving without animal flesh.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on February 14, 2011
at 04:12 AM

Just because they're less educated, doesn't make em any more accurate. I've seen incredibly few vegs I'd possibly admit are thriving, I've heard of exactly 0 that are doing it without supplementation.

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