15

votes

[META] Is Paleohacks nasty?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created April 02, 2012 at 6:08 PM

One criticism that has been brought up of paleohacks is that participants act nasty.

Theoretically, paleohacks is a cross-section of paleo people who use the internet. There are almost 5,000 users. In a given sample of 5,000 people, anywhere, you'll find some very nice people and some jerks.

You will also find varying opinions of hot-button issues. What seems jerky to someone might seem like the truth to others.

So, my question for you nasty boys and girls is...do you find paleohacks to be more nasty than other internet forums? Personally, I find people here to be fairly clever and analytical, but not always. There are jerks and trolls for sure, along with some insanely helpful members who write out long answers to help paleo newbies at the drop of a hat. The concept of "paleo" has fragmented into many different, sometimes conflicting ideas in the past couple years. Conflict in discussion is bound to arise, but as moderators, we want to make sure it's not completely out of control.

Please do keep in mind that there are different paradigms that can be used in moderation. What is moderation but governance, and what topic is more hotly debated than how to govern (aka politics)? You can't please everyone all the time, but hopefully you can please most of the people most of the time, or something like that. Or is it fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on...you?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:20 AM

Ah, I am a connoisseur of irony .... Thanks for that.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 06, 2012
at 02:06 AM

Yes, fear then laughter. Thanks WCC Paul. I have tremendous respect for Mods and 10k point members here!!!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:03 AM

[PS: Just in case it's not obvious, this is a joke between me and Richard.]

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:02 AM

You have three days left on Paleohacks before your account is deleted. Spend your time wisely.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 06, 2012
at 01:35 AM

Woa, WCC Moderator Dude answered a question!!! First time since Feb 1st? I guess you are too busy moderating to answer questions. ;-)

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 05, 2012
at 01:37 PM

Hmm.. I've got my eye on you Nance. The good one.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 05, 2012
at 01:37 PM

YES! ::does the roger rabbit badly::

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:06 PM

People already have to worry about their family, friends, and coworkers calling them "weird" for even trying paleo. How worthwhile is it if people in our own camp are calling us out for nitpicky things? "That's not paleo! You suck! AHHHHHH!" We don't need to sound like zealots. Leave that to the vegan dudes.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:03 PM

There's one paleo foodie (who has a pretty popular webiste which I will not mention) can be down right rude while mentioning folks who enjoy quasi-paleo food. For instance, on her Twitter account, she called anybody who tried sugar alcohols "weird." It didn't hurt my feelings, but imagine someone who is new to this thing and sees that type of elitist attitude. It could totally turn them off, which is total antithetical to the whole paleo mission. People aren't going to buy in if we're a bunch of holier than thou [email protected]

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:59 PM

Exactly. One thing I swore I would never do is be neurotic about my food. That is one step away from dangerous eating behaviors. If I can jazz things up for the fam. to A. Prevent my kids from feeling "too different" and B. Spice things up and enjoy some palatable yet paleo food, well I don't see the problem with that.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:37 PM

Yeah, I guess it wasn't that mean... Not like the one where he is accused of lying and/or making sh&t up.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:24 PM

@raydawg - It's just like a regular burger with a little extra garlic and a side of cous-cous.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:16 PM

So... whose got recipes for camel-burgers? :)

0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on April 03, 2012
at 01:06 PM

All my points are belong to jesuisjuba...

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:06 AM

The Larousse Gastronomique 1962 has a great old Bedouin recipe for roasted camel hump. Srsly.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:59 AM

See? I even got downvoted here for even mentioning it!!

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 03, 2012
at 03:26 AM

Twinkletoes, I love your use of language!

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 03, 2012
at 03:00 AM

I find this comment wrong. There internet doesn't allow you to leave.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:47 AM

pew pew pew pew pew pew!!!#[email protected]

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:44 AM

I haz azzhat. It works.. I wonder if this could be used for Scrabble?

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:42 AM

I respectfully requested more TT posts a few days ago and LOOKIE! The power of being nice FTW. Yes, I'm taking credit for this. **pew pew pew**

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:39 AM

Hah! You're late--I got my votes at 5 and gave you the *UP* then. I'm old but the brain still works. :-))

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:39 AM

Ok @Mer, how can I argue with epigenetics and all the goof factors? Hmm.. kind of want to see this poll. Question - is there a badge for that?

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:35 AM

@Nance! I'm waiting ::direct stare::

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:22 AM

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:57 PM

I think that would actually help us keep track of important community threads while letting more personal, transient, questions come and go.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:47 PM

Ok Bree, listen to this song and tell me that it doesn't get stuck in your mind for the whole day after hearing it :-P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdTs-iLBKME

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:45 PM

I agree with your assessment of "Off the Wall" It's the last album that Michael Jackson "looked" like Michael Jackson.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:42 PM

Agree 100% the last three are the most bothersome.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:41 PM

Oooh, humor!!! (Ninja style) :-P

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:34 PM

Nance I suggested that example because there are many issues in which we can learn, for instance comparing different views, research that we may not be aware of, etc. In fact there are thousands of topics like these that can be scientifically addressed. In fact often the answers based on scientific research could prove even more relevant than those based on personal, individual experience, which are often accepted here.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:29 PM

Thanks for link Dave! But...none of that really pinged my mean-o-meter. *shrug*

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:14 PM

I think the "gorilla in the room" for Patrik and the moderators is the unwieldy number of questions. I'd love to see questions automatically close after 6 months with the ability of 3 members to vote to re-open them for renewed discussion--with reasons such as "new information available" etc.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:11 PM

I know it can seem inconsistent on which questions are answered and which are closed, but that's because the members get to vote and we don't all think exactly the same. One reason that I have voted to close questions similar to your example is that we have no way of learning an accurate answer so it's all speculation. Exchanging guesses about what MIGHT have been doesn't help us all learn how to eat/think more effectively.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:04 PM

Anything with the phrase "ass-hat" gets love from me. I think ass-hat is underused.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:47 PM

I wonder, if I may, pose a question in regards to modifying moderation please. It seems to me that there is another way to ensure quality discourse and that is by perhaps flagging users who have an UNUSUALLY HIGH downvote to upvote ratio. I am not much of a downvoter myself, but I am not against it per se. It just seems to me that if someone has say more downvotes that upvotes that might be an indication of nastiness. Maybe not. I'm just throwing it out there.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:38 PM

And that's a GOOD thing, Twinkletoes!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:36 PM

I support your central point of <>. This technique could serve as a pleasing and adorable alternative for someone who really wants to get right into "asshat" territory. I move that there should be a bank of cute and fuzzy animal clip art on the right margin -----> that people can use when they are tempted to operate from the base of the pyramid.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:31 PM

I want to support your central point of calling out the bullshit.

0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

I guess I decided to jump in and start posting a few days ago. Now you can't shut me the hell up!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:20 PM

I would like to respectfully refute your assertion that you are "kind of goofy." I took a poll and 78% of all paleohackers rate you a 9 out of 10 on the goofiness scale. Therefore you rate high to very high in your goof expression (it's epigenetics and very complicated so take my word for it - mkay?)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:18 PM

I would like to respectfully refute your assertion that you are "kind of goofy." I took a poll and 78% of all paleohackers rate you a 9 out of 10 on the goofiness scale. Therefore you rate high to very high on the goofiness scale.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Remember this time last year when a whole bunch of us were just exposing ourselves in our Avatar photos? *sigh* Those were the days!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:14 PM

@Bree, What I am hearing is that you are experiencing a very deep, if not THE deepest emotion for a mere 2-D graphic. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this use of the word "love" here. You may have love for me, as a fellow human being (even if I am starting to sound like a vulcan) who also feels love for you. Otherwise I must ask that you rephrase your statement. <3

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:13 PM

Okay, now my ribs hurt Meredith! Sadly, though, you're right. If you design an infographic and I print it I won't be able to find it a week later. :-))

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:10 PM

@Nance What I am hearing is that you'd like me to create an infographic for you that will help you analyze and learn more about why you should address your pile of mail while also proclaiming the benefits of recycling. I am going to assume that you think that reading such an infographic would motivate you act. I am going to refute this assumption based on the fact that I spend way to much time learning junk on the intertubes whilst getting nothing useful accomplished.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Seriously, I think this should be one of those brown "featured links."

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:58 PM

I love this 'you are an ass hat' awesome!!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:57 PM

OMG!!! Major score! Could you do one for me about getting up off my butt and catching up on my recycling of junk mail? :-))

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:53 PM

Also, I like your central point, and will not refute it.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:52 PM

Although Chris Kresser has not logged in for a very long time, he did post a while ago...http://paleohacks.com/users/733/chris-kresser#axzz1qumpQhYU

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:42 PM

Since the spades have already been played, on to the clubs, diamonds, and hearts. And by that, I mean the litany of terrible arguments littered around the internet. You dare to argue against my idea? Well, I'm going to throw out a strawman counter-argument! You think I'm wrong? Well, you're whole mindset is wrong, so you'll never see my point! This is too bad, because there are loads of papers on pubmed about bio and epi. We could have many very productive debates simply pouring through both sides of a given biological process. That being said, this forum is 32% smarter than the average forum.

B442730f74eed4f00b7d6027a7109977

(100)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:40 PM

+1 for Off The Wall reference.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:40 PM

Hero worship and hero attack - two sides of the same coin. I think we all can beneift from stress-reduction month.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:38 PM

And to call that spade a spade yet again: It's a Herculean effort arguing the specifics of a guru's ideas. Like when subcutaneous fat came up for Dr. K's cold thermogenesis recommendations, you could not say anything of worth without a fan of Dr. K saying that clinical trials are meaningless in the cold adapted or something of that nature.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:36 PM

Kamal, how do you manage to be so down to earth for someone so omniscient and ethereally good looking? Seriously, I understand that point so well. This is not my first online forum :) But thanks for not smiting me for my impertinence.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:35 PM

Nance, yes. But I ran out of upvotes hours ago.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:34 PM

And to call a spade a spade: a full third of nastiness involves discussion about gurus, be they Jack Kruse, Ray Peat, or the upcoming Guru X. It sucks. I also think that the whole guru concept sucks. Nobody owns ideas. Things get personal way too quickly, and very heated. And while people viciously attack gurus for no good reason, other people nonsensically defend them. It's a no-win situation. If everyone left their egos at the door, things would work a lot more smoothly.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:33 PM

Kamal, I think we can agree Kelly did a masterful job of phrasing her concern, hmm?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:30 PM

Let us for a moment ignore the fact that moderators can do no wrong and have a degree of omniscience. Okay. And ignore the fact that they are all ethereally good-looking. Okay. Outside of that, I do see your point, and also see the equal and opposite point. Moderators on most web sites are simply people that post a lot. So it's like a player/coach on sports teams. That makes for some shaky roles, especially when moderators have opinions on things (which is all the time!).

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Nance, +1 just for being you. We would miss you terribly if you weren't around. I'm just saying...

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:20 PM

You should post more.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:16 PM

I dunno, sometimes it's best to convey that a particular sentiment is ridiculous/dangerous since so much of what's posted here is health advice.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Ah, Kamal, never forgetting my soft spot for David Moss -- and by soft spot, with deference to the man himself, I mean: completely calm, rational, and principled appreciation. What's up David Moss!

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:15 PM

well sed, twinkeltoes.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:14 PM

Your point is profound. Keeping it simple is the key goal, particularly if you can't fully critique hundreds of research studies on your own.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Oh, my! Your sense of mischief is SOOO wonderful! +1 when I have votes again.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:10 PM

+1 LOL! "OMG I broke down and ate a quarter of a square of 90% lindt how am I ever going to recover..."

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Well said, Heidi! I'm out of votes but I owe you +1.

5759bd89db5f73cabe0a6e8f8e6e1cb9

(1467)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:53 PM

Very true. Quite a few are of the comments are of the 'I never crave sugar/bread/fruit or need to bake variety. Come on .. Even Robb Wolf has been known to post one or two baking recipes on his blog..

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:52 PM

One hypothesis is that combative and non-cooperative attitudes went sharply up when David Moss started posting less.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:46 PM

I absolutley agree with the parenting stuff. It's super touchy and if people don't agree with you you get some serious mud slung at you. The parenting answers are the only ones that I've received downvotes on that I can think of. I stay away from online parenting forums they scare the sh*t out of me.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I absolutley agree with the parenting stuff. It's super touchy and if people don't agree with you you get som eserious mud slung at you. The parenting answers are the only ones that I've received downvotes on that I can think of. I stay away from online parenting forums they scare the sh*t out of me.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Giving grains the boot has allowed for more meatspace on my plate, I can tell you that.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:40 PM

"GIMME SOME MEAT!"

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:38 PM

Oh I will admit that I have been involved in some of the mudslinging - so I am not an innocent, but I would like it to be over with

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:37 PM

Annnnnnnd THAT song is going to be stuck in my head all afternoon.

2fd93e91bb14e641a2bac9c6033e84e2

(1614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:35 PM

+1. gydle, the parenting stuff is always the most hot-button in my experience... thebump.com is the meanest forum I've ever visited!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:32 PM

Who learns by just being told the answers and not discovering the answer for themselves? Answering questions with leading questions is my whole teaching method. See what I did there? EH, eh...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:31 PM

I hear you, but selfishly I'd hate to stop coming here and April is "Best Your Stress" month.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:24 PM

Nance, I get that, and I get troubled occasionally too. But I try to take that troubled feeling as an indication that there's something arising within me that needs addressing, not within the folks who set it in motion. It's not harming me to let folks get idiotic with themselves. I also think it's okay, and may be more beneficial, to call people out on something rather than just ban it outright. It's good to see corrections out there because it gives people information to make more informed decisions about what they choose to listen to in the future.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:20 PM

Damn it Kamal, you never fail to get a song in my head... "oh you nasty boys"

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

I miss Audrey Tautou...

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:10 PM

You said meatspace.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:07 PM

That's a good thing, Nance. Most of the time, forums are a colossal waste of time. On this one, I have learned some stuff, and I enjoy the humor, which is why I have stayed (so far). I only got burned once and it involved a touchy subject - breastfeeding. I have stayed away from any parenting comments after that.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:05 PM

Oh, Janet Jackson. Nasty. I get it.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:58 PM

I think I see my problem--I haven't followed enough forums! My bad. I've been comparing PH to comments on Chris Kresser's site. :O

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:53 PM

If it's only ONE thread, I'll shrug and go looking for something more up my alley. If it's 3-4 threads all snapping non-logical zingers, especially if the arguments seem to continue on threads barely/not related to the topic I get stressed. Again, I don't want to stay OR leave.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:51 PM

I rarely flag an individual entry but there are times that I'm browsing a thread and I realize it's a low-reward conversation because there's no constructive payoff. My real-life analogy would be if 2 friends I care about are arguing and I don't think either one is offering constructive observations/hypotheses. It's hard to get up and leave, because I care about them and don't want to isolate myself, yet it's stressful to stay because nothing beneficial is happening.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:46 PM

he's not a low-carb peatarian, but an oxymoron.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:44 PM

YAJKT - Yet Another Jack Kruse Thread. http://paleohacks.com/questions/109030/mcewen-on-kruse-hack-her-critique-of-ks-use-of-evolutionary-biology/109146#109146

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:41 PM

I only eat enteric-coated hormone pills and refined coconut oil. Thus I am both low-carb and a Peatarian. A rare breed, especially amongst camels.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:38 PM

Aw, man! What'd I miss yesterday? Having a real life is so overrated.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:37 PM

Are you really a low carb peatarian? Is that even possible? Could I get a day's sample menu?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:36 PM

That is the most beautiful camel I have ever seen! Are you personally aquainted? Could you introduce me?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:35 PM

Thanks for your input KAVU. Note that some days are hotbeds of contentious activity (like yesterday, for example), while sometimes relatively long periods go by of peace and harmony in the PH universe.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:34 PM

I think if you plot the increasing amount of rude behavoir against omega-6 oil consumption (or was it sugar?) - there's definitely some kind of random correlation there. People used to be nicer, or have manners or something. I think the anonymity of teh interwebz may have something to do with it. And you are far from obsolete!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:29 PM

Sorry, Kamal--but sheesh, I SAID I wasn't worthy!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:29 PM

@DaveS, or simply a dinosaur from an obsolete era? :-))

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:28 PM

Ooh, Great Lakes Camel Jello! Is 10 pounds enough? Come and go rhymes with meat jello - is that some kind of secret message?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:27 PM

Nance, you are disrupting the purpose of this hack. It's supposed to bring out the jerks, who will naturally answer in a jerkish way. Then we will ban the jerks who answer. It's like being an online sniper.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:24 PM

This brings up wistful memories of my sister singing Boy George to me when I was a child..."Kama kama kama kama camel chameleon, you come and go, you come and go..."

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:24 PM

Oh Nance! You're simply too nice!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

ALL THE PEATARIANS ALREADY BOUGHT IT ALL> YOU CAN ASK CAMEL ABOUT IT>

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

I've left a few flags but I try not to use it much. I was just equating the FAQ quote to what I've been reading in general.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

Meat jello? Do you get that from camels? Do you have a link where I can order some online?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:20 PM

The point of PH is that if something is offensive, you can flag it or downvote it. I haven't received any flags from you. Moderators come in when users are out and out purposefully disrupting the site.

  • 21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

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21 Answers

16
0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:07 PM

I've been a lurker from the beginning of PH. Those days, Paleo was easy. Everyone "knew" what you could eat and not eat. Then the potato snuck in... then rice... then fruit beyond a handful of berries... orange juice, sugar, seems that Paleo went from being Original Flavor to Taste the Rainbow. Hell, Harris has singlehandedly brought back gluten in the infamous "donuts and pizza" debate.

We're left with a hundred ways to "be Paleo," and when a person needs to (wo)man up and make some personal decisions, things can seem scary, dicey, wild, chaotic. We're no longer left with folks who ask questions and a symphony of cohesive answers. We have a thousand answers for each question, each spoken from the Hacker's homegrown perspective.

Added to the mix are the outliers, folks like Kruse and his Kourse of Kold and Ray Peat, Thymus King. These folks are relying on their intuition and creative leaps to develop the new frontier, and when you don't have the literature to back up your pronouncements, you should expect the Hackers to say "Wha?!" Doesn't mean the outliers are wrong. Or right. Just means that they are yelling into a black hole - you can't quite hear them, and they can't quite get their full message out.

I don't think this is Negatron Town. I think it's a group of incredible and smart people who are trying to make sense of something that is not yet quantifiable. The snark I've seen has been two-sided or born from sheer desperation when someone who acts like they have authority answers a question with a question or sidesteps the issue.

Participating in PH requires some level of authenticity and transparency, or it should. The people who intrigue me the most are those who answer questions in a forthright manner and who lay out their evidence.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:20 PM

You should post more.

65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 03, 2012
at 03:26 AM

Twinkletoes, I love your use of language!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:38 PM

And that's a GOOD thing, Twinkletoes!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:47 AM

pew pew pew pew pew pew!!!#[email protected]

0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

I guess I decided to jump in and start posting a few days ago. Now you can't shut me the hell up!

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:15 PM

well sed, twinkeltoes.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:14 PM

Your point is profound. Keeping it simple is the key goal, particularly if you can't fully critique hundreds of research studies on your own.

0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on April 03, 2012
at 01:06 PM

All my points are belong to jesuisjuba...

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:42 AM

I respectfully requested more TT posts a few days ago and LOOKIE! The power of being nice FTW. Yes, I'm taking credit for this. **pew pew pew**

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 05, 2012
at 01:37 PM

YES! ::does the roger rabbit badly::

16
B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:59 PM

I find that most of the users of this site try to be genuinely nice and helpful. I also find I have learned a lot and continue to learn a lot.

I also find that every once in awhile I just get sick of the nastiest that comes out, the immaturity and the competition to be the most scientific (even when the science being quoted is biased, inaccurate etc.) People on this site love to poke fun at conventional wisdom about nutrition and medicine, yet I find they are more than willing to sling around their own inaccurate conventional wisdom. I find this extremely frustrating.

The attacks on people, not just their ideas, though are intolerable. When it gets to be too much, I stop coming to the site for awhile. So far, I've kept coming back, but each time I've gone away, I've stayed away longer.

If I was going to draw a line as a modifier, I would flag any attack on a person. Attack my ideas, attack my science, whatever. But when you attack me (or any other person), that's disrespectful and immature and stifles the communication of genuine ideas and support which I believe is the purpose of this site.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Well said, Heidi! I'm out of votes but I owe you +1.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:22 AM

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

16
A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:21 PM

Meh. A little nastiness is okay by me. Frankly, I think we need to call out the bullshit. I've been brutally corrected here and it was painful, but it made me more careful not to just parrot whatever I had read or heard.

And overall, most people here are pretty nice and respectful. The mods also do a decent job of not letting things get out of control.

I suppose that in wanting "paleo" to be as correct as possible, people can get riled up. We have to hash it out. I can remember many vehemently disagreeing with eating potatoes, for example. Now it seems that very few are totally opposed to it - even if they eat low carb themselves...

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:31 PM

I want to support your central point of calling out the bullshit.

14
5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:12 PM

Compared to most online forums, I would say that PH is pretty friendly over all. However, some of the Paleo Orthodox ilk get annoying.

For instance, someone asks for a recipe for a paleo-friendly version of a neolithic comfort food. Let's just say pancakes.

Half the thread consists of actual answers to the question.

One quarter of the thread consists of comments underneath the answers saying things like "That sounds yummy! I'm going to try that" or make some other positive comment.

A quarter of the thread? The Paleo Re-enactment folks climb on the pulpit and preach to us about the fact that they don't crave these types of foods anymore and they can't imagine why someone else would, so why bother making "paleo friendly foods" blah blah blah.

I think it's great that some folks eat like a cave man. Fantastic. But if someone is really doing their best to improve their health, who are we to tell them that their understanding of Paleo is wrong? Keep off the high horse and keep it positive, please!

5759bd89db5f73cabe0a6e8f8e6e1cb9

(1467)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:53 PM

Very true. Quite a few are of the comments are of the 'I never crave sugar/bread/fruit or need to bake variety. Come on .. Even Robb Wolf has been known to post one or two baking recipes on his blog..

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:10 PM

+1 LOL! "OMG I broke down and ate a quarter of a square of 90% lindt how am I ever going to recover..."

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:06 PM

People already have to worry about their family, friends, and coworkers calling them "weird" for even trying paleo. How worthwhile is it if people in our own camp are calling us out for nitpicky things? "That's not paleo! You suck! AHHHHHH!" We don't need to sound like zealots. Leave that to the vegan dudes.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:03 PM

There's one paleo foodie (who has a pretty popular webiste which I will not mention) can be down right rude while mentioning folks who enjoy quasi-paleo food. For instance, on her Twitter account, she called anybody who tried sugar alcohols "weird." It didn't hurt my feelings, but imagine someone who is new to this thing and sees that type of elitist attitude. It could totally turn them off, which is total antithetical to the whole paleo mission. People aren't going to buy in if we're a bunch of holier than thou [email protected]

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:59 PM

Exactly. One thing I swore I would never do is be neurotic about my food. That is one step away from dangerous eating behaviors. If I can jazz things up for the fam. to A. Prevent my kids from feeling "too different" and B. Spice things up and enjoy some palatable yet paleo food, well I don't see the problem with that.

13
47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I think I can say with some objectivity as someone who has been here since pretty much the beginning that there was at some point a qualitative shift in the direction of nasty. I'd say it was about a year ago, about halfway into the lifespan of Paleohacks.

Who knows what the reasons are, but last spring I went from thinking of this place as for the most part friendly and cooperative to thinking of it as for the most part combative and non-cooperative. Even at the beginning there were some spats here and there, but the change brought with it a general sense that there was some ill will present -- and when not explicitly present then at least lurking behind the scenes, always threatening to return.

This is a significant downside to the site, but I of course still think it has tremendous value, both for beginners who want to learn about ancestral/biologically sound/paleo/human eating, and for paleosphere connoisseurs who need a place to debate.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Ah, Kamal, never forgetting my soft spot for David Moss -- and by soft spot, with deference to the man himself, I mean: completely calm, rational, and principled appreciation. What's up David Moss!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:52 PM

One hypothesis is that combative and non-cooperative attitudes went sharply up when David Moss started posting less.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 06, 2012
at 01:35 AM

Woa, WCC Moderator Dude answered a question!!! First time since Feb 1st? I guess you are too busy moderating to answer questions. ;-)

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:20 AM

Ah, I am a connoisseur of irony .... Thanks for that.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 06, 2012
at 02:06 AM

Yes, fear then laughter. Thanks WCC Paul. I have tremendous respect for Mods and 10k point members here!!!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:02 AM

You have three days left on Paleohacks before your account is deleted. Spend your time wisely.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 06, 2012
at 02:03 AM

[PS: Just in case it's not obvious, this is a joke between me and Richard.]

11
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:18 PM

I bow (because I am not worthy) to the culture as defined by Patrik.

"This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered!

Be nice.

Treat others with the same respect you'd want them to treat you. We're all here to learn together. Be tolerant of others who may not know everything you know. Bring your sense of humor."

If that's our standard, I feel PH has in fact gone past my comfort level of nasty in some threads. If Patrik is okay with that he just needs to say so and I will decide whether or not I wish to continue as a member.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Nance, +1 just for being you. We would miss you terribly if you weren't around. I'm just saying...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

I've left a few flags but I try not to use it much. I was just equating the FAQ quote to what I've been reading in general.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:34 PM

I think if you plot the increasing amount of rude behavoir against omega-6 oil consumption (or was it sugar?) - there's definitely some kind of random correlation there. People used to be nicer, or have manners or something. I think the anonymity of teh interwebz may have something to do with it. And you are far from obsolete!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:29 PM

@DaveS, or simply a dinosaur from an obsolete era? :-))

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:29 PM

Sorry, Kamal--but sheesh, I SAID I wasn't worthy!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:27 PM

Nance, you are disrupting the purpose of this hack. It's supposed to bring out the jerks, who will naturally answer in a jerkish way. Then we will ban the jerks who answer. It's like being an online sniper.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:20 PM

The point of PH is that if something is offensive, you can flag it or downvote it. I haven't received any flags from you. Moderators come in when users are out and out purposefully disrupting the site.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:24 PM

Oh Nance! You're simply too nice!

11
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:17 PM

[meta]-is-paleohacks-nasty?

DOWNVOTED YOU LOW-CARB PEATARIAN NO_NOTHING. GO BACK TO YOUR MEAT JELLO EATING.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:16 PM

So... whose got recipes for camel-burgers? :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

ALL THE PEATARIANS ALREADY BOUGHT IT ALL> YOU CAN ASK CAMEL ABOUT IT>

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

I miss Audrey Tautou...

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:36 PM

That is the most beautiful camel I have ever seen! Are you personally aquainted? Could you introduce me?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 PM

Meat jello? Do you get that from camels? Do you have a link where I can order some online?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:06 AM

The Larousse Gastronomique 1962 has a great old Bedouin recipe for roasted camel hump. Srsly.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:24 PM

This brings up wistful memories of my sister singing Boy George to me when I was a child..."Kama kama kama kama camel chameleon, you come and go, you come and go..."

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:28 PM

Ooh, Great Lakes Camel Jello! Is 10 pounds enough? Come and go rhymes with meat jello - is that some kind of secret message?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:36 PM

I support your central point of <>. This technique could serve as a pleasing and adorable alternative for someone who really wants to get right into "asshat" territory. I move that there should be a bank of cute and fuzzy animal clip art on the right margin -----> that people can use when they are tempted to operate from the base of the pyramid.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:24 PM

@raydawg - It's just like a regular burger with a little extra garlic and a side of cous-cous.

10
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:43 PM

I don't really participate as a registered user in many other online forums, except for a few Facebook groups. I do, however, use other forums if I want to learn varied subjects quickly (eg. Samsung Galaxy forum, Backyard Chickens forum, Dangerously Hardcore forum, GardenWeb forum, even MDA). I don't think I've seen very much hostility in the non-diet/exercise forums very much at all. However, many diet and exercise forums tend to get pretty nasty from time to time. So Paleohacks doesn't strike me as unique in this way. However, if I were a Paleo Luminary I prolly would not read this forum very often (I actually am pretty thin skinned) and in fact I think Chris Kresser mentioned recently that he NEVER reads PH (I don't really blame him.) BUT maybe we need to take note of this.

As a user of PH and a sometimes snarky remark maker (I promise to stop posting while drinking - I PROMISE!) I have to say that I an going to try to turn over a new leaf! I will try to stop operating from the base of the pyramid and instead will focus on balancing at the tip top. MODS - If you could please make this image a permanent fixture on the side bar over here -----> that will help to keep me on point. You can even name it "For Meredith."

[meta]-is-paleohacks-nasty?

BUT there are people here who are quite adept at making sure their arguments are focused at the top of this pyramid. If you are upset and THINK that someone is being nasty because they do not agree with you, try formulating your response by "explicitly refuting THEIR central point."

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:53 PM

Also, I like your central point, and will not refute it.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:52 PM

Although Chris Kresser has not logged in for a very long time, he did post a while ago...http://paleohacks.com/users/733/chris-kresser#axzz1qumpQhYU

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:14 PM

@Bree, What I am hearing is that you are experiencing a very deep, if not THE deepest emotion for a mere 2-D graphic. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this use of the word "love" here. You may have love for me, as a fellow human being (even if I am starting to sound like a vulcan) who also feels love for you. Otherwise I must ask that you rephrase your statement. <3

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Seriously, I think this should be one of those brown "featured links."

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:42 PM

Agree 100% the last three are the most bothersome.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Remember this time last year when a whole bunch of us were just exposing ourselves in our Avatar photos? *sigh* Those were the days!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:13 PM

Okay, now my ribs hurt Meredith! Sadly, though, you're right. If you design an infographic and I print it I won't be able to find it a week later. :-))

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:57 PM

OMG!!! Major score! Could you do one for me about getting up off my butt and catching up on my recycling of junk mail? :-))

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:10 PM

@Nance What I am hearing is that you'd like me to create an infographic for you that will help you analyze and learn more about why you should address your pile of mail while also proclaiming the benefits of recycling. I am going to assume that you think that reading such an infographic would motivate you act. I am going to refute this assumption based on the fact that I spend way to much time learning junk on the intertubes whilst getting nothing useful accomplished.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:58 PM

I love this 'you are an ass hat' awesome!!

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:44 AM

I haz azzhat. It works.. I wonder if this could be used for Scrabble?

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:04 PM

Anything with the phrase "ass-hat" gets love from me. I think ass-hat is underused.

10
Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:18 PM

"You take the good, you take the bad you take them both and there you have"....PaleoHacks

I have learned so much and met so many amazing people through paleohacks. I've also had some interesting run-ins and had some pulse pounding angry moments courtesy of this forum.

It's hard for an online forum like this not to get nasty. I think a lot is due to the lack of the ability to set tone in written communication (like in emails). Sometimes things get misconstrued.

There has been so much focus lately on mud-slinging, name calling and quack watching. I'm tired of it. I want to get back to the exchange of information and helping each other out.

Time to get back to the good ole Thumper rule "If you don't have anything nice to say...."

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:37 PM

Annnnnnnd THAT song is going to be stuck in my head all afternoon.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:38 PM

Oh I will admit that I have been involved in some of the mudslinging - so I am not an innocent, but I would like it to be over with

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:47 PM

Ok Bree, listen to this song and tell me that it doesn't get stuck in your mind for the whole day after hearing it :-P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdTs-iLBKME

10
518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:55 PM

I see a lot of people feel the same way as myself: it is pretty darn tame for the internet, but there have been a few lines crossed.

The only criticism on a whole for the paleohack forum would be disrespect to other people in the population, even if they are not present. Actually, especially for groups that aren't represented. Criticizing parents in a "you did this to your kid, you are evil", criticizing the overweight/obese as "way to fall for the pyramid scheme, you less-intelligent others", general tarring of all medical professionals for "covering up the symptoms", and other attacks that aren't directed at members, but just generally make me feel like things are a little too nasty. From the recent blog posts and general murmuring amongst female paleo-ers, we know that the same problem has surfaced here as in the vegan movement: people want to look good, and if they feel like they don't look good, than they are disappointed that they are not the adequate representation of the paleo lifestyle. This attitude is present whenever any "new food thing" surfaces and starts getting media attention, as the whole group wants to put it's best foot forward, in a way, as proof. You see that on the forums now, that if you don't look good yet you aren't doing it right, but I think the regular users are aware of this and keep it well-controlled and surprisingly tame.

That being said, I mean there have been religious questions on here with a multitude of faiths responding that did not dissolve in bubbling, bitter chaos, which is a pretty good way to gauge that things are pretty good over all.

8
D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on April 03, 2012
at 01:50 AM

[meta]-is-paleohacks-nasty?

Welcome to the Internet!

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 03, 2012
at 03:00 AM

I find this comment wrong. There internet doesn't allow you to leave.

8
Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 02, 2012
at 08:08 PM

First of all, to encompass all that is "Jackson" I absolutely detest Janet and besides some choice Jackson 5 tracks - "Off The Wall" is the only Michael Jackson record that is good. Thriller can suck it.

Errmm... on occasion it gets kinda angry eyed around here but not much.

Overall I think it's pretty great and I've learned a lot. I'm kind of goofy when I post but for a reason - I want whatever I post to be friendly and all encompassing in hopes that there's a good takeaway for all. Negativity has it's place but it gets boring after awhile. I mean, I'll argue but when it just becomes unproductive I'm done.

And finally, having milk crates physically flung at you by your boss, ahhh chefs, we can talk nasty. Besides being fantastic for storage those mofos hurt like hell.

Did you ask about jerky too? Yes, I like jerky.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:41 PM

Oooh, humor!!! (Ninja style) :-P

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:39 AM

Hah! You're late--I got my votes at 5 and gave you the *UP* then. I'm old but the brain still works. :-))

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on April 02, 2012
at 10:45 PM

I agree with your assessment of "Off the Wall" It's the last album that Michael Jackson "looked" like Michael Jackson.

B442730f74eed4f00b7d6027a7109977

(100)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:40 PM

+1 for Off The Wall reference.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:39 AM

Ok @Mer, how can I argue with epigenetics and all the goof factors? Hmm.. kind of want to see this poll. Question - is there a badge for that?

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Oh, my! Your sense of mischief is SOOO wonderful! +1 when I have votes again.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 03, 2012
at 02:35 AM

@Nance! I'm waiting ::direct stare::

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:20 PM

I would like to respectfully refute your assertion that you are "kind of goofy." I took a poll and 78% of all paleohackers rate you a 9 out of 10 on the goofiness scale. Therefore you rate high to very high in your goof expression (it's epigenetics and very complicated so take my word for it - mkay?)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:18 PM

I would like to respectfully refute your assertion that you are "kind of goofy." I took a poll and 78% of all paleohackers rate you a 9 out of 10 on the goofiness scale. Therefore you rate high to very high on the goofiness scale.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on April 05, 2012
at 01:37 PM

Hmm.. I've got my eye on you Nance. The good one.

5
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:55 PM

This is one of the nicest online communities I've ever been involved with.

In nearly all online discourse, I find that people tend to infer feelings (especially negative ones) where no negativity was implied.

  • Implication ==> "what I believe I send to you"
  • Inference ==> "what you perceive to receive"
  • There is no rule that what is inferred equals what was implied

For example, responding to a question with a question in meatspace can be readily construed as rude. Here, it is a matter of course, and should not be perceived as rude.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:32 PM

Who learns by just being told the answers and not discovering the answer for themselves? Answering questions with leading questions is my whole teaching method. See what I did there? EH, eh...

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:10 PM

You said meatspace.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Giving grains the boot has allowed for more meatspace on my plate, I can tell you that.

5
Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:44 PM

This forum is WAY more civil than one I followed briefly for expats here in Switzerland (until I left in disgust). When things get out of hand here, usually another member comes into the comments and reminds the parties to remain polite. I particularly like the comments option under the answers - it's a way to join or start a discussion without necessarily committing to an answer. I also like the humor here. When things start getting overheated or overwraught, usually someone steps in with some humor and re-sets the tone.

Although I agree with Nance that it's important to "be nice," I have to admit I sometimes get a little annoyed when people ask questions that have already been extensively covered or keep asking the same question repeatedly, just with different wording. I bow to the moderators for being patient and gently editing the questions or suggesting sites that could be visited or threads that could be researched. Great job, guys.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:58 PM

I think I see my problem--I haven't followed enough forums! My bad. I've been comparing PH to comments on Chris Kresser's site. :O

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:07 PM

That's a good thing, Nance. Most of the time, forums are a colossal waste of time. On this one, I have learned some stuff, and I enjoy the humor, which is why I have stayed (so far). I only got burned once and it involved a touchy subject - breastfeeding. I have stayed away from any parenting comments after that.

2fd93e91bb14e641a2bac9c6033e84e2

(1614)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:35 PM

+1. gydle, the parenting stuff is always the most hot-button in my experience... thebump.com is the meanest forum I've ever visited!

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:46 PM

I absolutley agree with the parenting stuff. It's super touchy and if people don't agree with you you get some serious mud slung at you. The parenting answers are the only ones that I've received downvotes on that I can think of. I stay away from online parenting forums they scare the sh*t out of me.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:59 AM

See? I even got downvoted here for even mentioning it!!

Medium avatar

(12379)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I absolutley agree with the parenting stuff. It's super touchy and if people don't agree with you you get som eserious mud slung at you. The parenting answers are the only ones that I've received downvotes on that I can think of. I stay away from online parenting forums they scare the sh*t out of me.

5
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on April 02, 2012
at 06:34 PM

Do I find paleohacks to be more nasty than other internet forums? Ha ... I used to do wedding catering back in the day. Now there were some nasty forums! Wanna start a major war? Just say why you are or aren't doing a money dance or a bouquet toss and then run for cover ;).

On a serious note, I do find PH periodically nasty. But I usually figure that is coming from a defensive position (the best defense is a good offiense) because someone feels their held-dear viewpoint is being threatened. And it's just pretty easy to write stuff you wouldn't say face-to-face.

5
725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:32 PM

YES!!!! The response to some people becomes a personal attack rather than attacking their ideas. What some perceive as funny comes across as very "snarky" to others. Also seems that many of the regulars can dish it out, but can't take it (lots of posts get deleted). The site seems like a Jerry Springer show at times -- one which has no redeeming value, but you can't help but watch (read). Entertaining, but imparting no value or knowledge at all.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:35 PM

Thanks for your input KAVU. Note that some days are hotbeds of contentious activity (like yesterday, for example), while sometimes relatively long periods go by of peace and harmony in the PH universe.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:29 PM

Thanks for link Dave! But...none of that really pinged my mean-o-meter. *shrug*

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:38 PM

Aw, man! What'd I miss yesterday? Having a real life is so overrated.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:44 PM

YAJKT - Yet Another Jack Kruse Thread. http://paleohacks.com/questions/109030/mcewen-on-kruse-hack-her-critique-of-ks-use-of-evolutionary-biology/109146#109146

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:37 PM

Yeah, I guess it wasn't that mean... Not like the one where he is accused of lying and/or making sh&t up.

4
Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

on September 07, 2013
at 12:44 AM

I have consistently found most PH member very cooperative, and some of them incredibly knowledgeable. However my two complains are: that often some questions are deemed to be a repetition of a previous one, without a subtle reading. And therefore the second, perhaps related yet different question gets eliminated. I have seen this going on several times.

And that often certain interesting yet somewhat general questions e.g. "were pastoralist groups healthier than agriculturalist people" are considered off topic. In the past I had seen very profound debates on similar issues, yet eventually, lately many of these topics came to be overlooked.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:34 PM

Nance I suggested that example because there are many issues in which we can learn, for instance comparing different views, research that we may not be aware of, etc. In fact there are thousands of topics like these that can be scientifically addressed. In fact often the answers based on scientific research could prove even more relevant than those based on personal, individual experience, which are often accepted here.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:11 PM

I know it can seem inconsistent on which questions are answered and which are closed, but that's because the members get to vote and we don't all think exactly the same. One reason that I have voted to close questions similar to your example is that we have no way of learning an accurate answer so it's all speculation. Exchanging guesses about what MIGHT have been doesn't help us all learn how to eat/think more effectively.

4
F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:21 PM

I started this as a comment on Heidi's answer, but I thought I'd add it as my 2 cents.

I could not agree more [with the distaste for personal attacks on the site]. If anyone wants to debate an issue or point of science I'm all ears (eyes) and want to read all sides. The minute I see a personal attack thinly disguised as a question, I turn off. And unfortunately, I see it all too frequently lately.

And maybe I'm sticking my neck out here, because you don't want to bite the hands that feed you, but it really upsets me when I see the moderators joining in rather than stepping back and saying "this really isn't in the spirit of PH people". Hey, we're all human and sometimes we all get caught up in emotion, but it's important to realize that they set the tone for the site, and when new folks see moderators engaging in this kind of behavior they automatically assume (as most would) that it's OK to do so.

I have learned so much from this site and have nothing but respect and gratitude for 99% of the members and moderators and the thoughtful discussions and answers I have seen. My biggest concern is when the nice people start leaving then things tend to spiral downward pretty quickly.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:40 PM

Hero worship and hero attack - two sides of the same coin. I think we all can beneift from stress-reduction month.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:35 PM

Nance, yes. But I ran out of upvotes hours ago.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:38 PM

And to call that spade a spade yet again: It's a Herculean effort arguing the specifics of a guru's ideas. Like when subcutaneous fat came up for Dr. K's cold thermogenesis recommendations, you could not say anything of worth without a fan of Dr. K saying that clinical trials are meaningless in the cold adapted or something of that nature.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:33 PM

Kamal, I think we can agree Kelly did a masterful job of phrasing her concern, hmm?

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:36 PM

Kamal, how do you manage to be so down to earth for someone so omniscient and ethereally good looking? Seriously, I understand that point so well. This is not my first online forum :) But thanks for not smiting me for my impertinence.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:30 PM

Let us for a moment ignore the fact that moderators can do no wrong and have a degree of omniscience. Okay. And ignore the fact that they are all ethereally good-looking. Okay. Outside of that, I do see your point, and also see the equal and opposite point. Moderators on most web sites are simply people that post a lot. So it's like a player/coach on sports teams. That makes for some shaky roles, especially when moderators have opinions on things (which is all the time!).

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:34 PM

And to call a spade a spade: a full third of nastiness involves discussion about gurus, be they Jack Kruse, Ray Peat, or the upcoming Guru X. It sucks. I also think that the whole guru concept sucks. Nobody owns ideas. Things get personal way too quickly, and very heated. And while people viciously attack gurus for no good reason, other people nonsensically defend them. It's a no-win situation. If everyone left their egos at the door, things would work a lot more smoothly.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:42 PM

Since the spades have already been played, on to the clubs, diamonds, and hearts. And by that, I mean the litany of terrible arguments littered around the internet. You dare to argue against my idea? Well, I'm going to throw out a strawman counter-argument! You think I'm wrong? Well, you're whole mindset is wrong, so you'll never see my point! This is too bad, because there are loads of papers on pubmed about bio and epi. We could have many very productive debates simply pouring through both sides of a given biological process. That being said, this forum is 32% smarter than the average forum.

4
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:40 PM

There are occasions where people use comments to be nasty (avoiding the down vote?).

It seems open season on some members of the forum. If you do not like their ideas is it really ok to put them down instead of have an open and/or even heated discussion about what they have said?

We even have one member that gets a lot of flack every time they post. And they provide amazing answers.

We do not always roll out the welcome mat to new posters. Some receive amazing answers and some on rare occasion are made fun of.

Mostly perfect in Paleohack land. However some rough edges also.

1
F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:36 PM

I dunno, whaddya want from a bunch of funny monkeys?

I've critiqued the tone of the discussion before, and I've been critiqued for that critique. Lots of critiquing. Everyone has a right to their opinion, which includes having an opinion about the opinion, and an opinion on the opinion of the opinion. (Phew! I think a wormhole just opened up in space somewhere...) It's all valid.

As far as the ridiculous stuff, I would say I've seen far worse. I find PH useful and entertaining for the most part. I don't recall ever flagging anyone for anything, because in general, I don't consider myself to be a fragile daisy whose feelings are too vulnerable to handle the weather out there.

I think it's important to keep in mind that what we see about someone online is but a tiny sliver of a whole, and that that sliver was thrown out in near-anonymity from a lit screen somewhere on Earth. It doesn't mean anything about their character or who they are as a real person (in general). Sound and fury, signifying nothing, and all that.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:51 PM

I rarely flag an individual entry but there are times that I'm browsing a thread and I realize it's a low-reward conversation because there's no constructive payoff. My real-life analogy would be if 2 friends I care about are arguing and I don't think either one is offering constructive observations/hypotheses. It's hard to get up and leave, because I care about them and don't want to isolate myself, yet it's stressful to stay because nothing beneficial is happening.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:31 PM

I hear you, but selfishly I'd hate to stop coming here and April is "Best Your Stress" month.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:53 PM

If it's only ONE thread, I'll shrug and go looking for something more up my alley. If it's 3-4 threads all snapping non-logical zingers, especially if the arguments seem to continue on threads barely/not related to the topic I get stressed. Again, I don't want to stay OR leave.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:24 PM

Nance, I get that, and I get troubled occasionally too. But I try to take that troubled feeling as an indication that there's something arising within me that needs addressing, not within the folks who set it in motion. It's not harming me to let folks get idiotic with themselves. I also think it's okay, and may be more beneficial, to call people out on something rather than just ban it outright. It's good to see corrections out there because it gives people information to make more informed decisions about what they choose to listen to in the future.

-2
1bbcd2122d9c75b07440f22ef57d6448

(2934)

on April 02, 2012
at 11:04 PM

I find that people on PaleoHacks are more likely to bombard you with their own personal philosophy, even if they are simply trying to be helpful. The other community I frequent also has a dedicated paleo faction, and they are far more likely to advise you based on your wishes as opposed to recommending a total shift.

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