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Fasted training and autophagy, what are the parameters?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 31, 2012 at 4:01 AM

How long after finishing the last meal does it take to qualify as fasted training?

How long to begin autophagy?

Once a week I eat at 7am, go to the rock climbing gym and train from 3pm-7pm, then eat at 8pm. Qualify?

7e6644836cdbcbe2b06307ff7db92d31

(693)

on June 01, 2012
at 02:50 PM

A 16/8 has other benefits in it's own right. I'll stretch the 16/8 out periodically by skipping lunch to engage in genuinely fasted training, get to workout fasted at 20-22 hours. MDA has HGH increase with fasting and heavy resistance, and he delays post-workout meal in an attempt to draw a synergistic bounce from the two effects (insulin supposed to downregulate HGH). I bet you could eat dinner at 8 pm, skip breakfast and lunch, and climb fasted very effectively at 3:00. Would put you in the sweet spot, and doubt it would be a problem at all, at least if belayed.

D07a525f9021f8d72bf6aaa52893c795

(1011)

on June 01, 2012
at 01:45 PM

@animaleater - seen some of your other posts, and feel unworthy! As long as this site remains "agenda free", I agree. Shame some "members" don't contribute! Never really been into climbing, but I can see its awesomeness, right along with gymnastics. My answer now has been edited slightly.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Sounds exactly how I feel towards the end of a long climbing session while fasted for 8+hrs.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:09 PM

Stupid iPhone autocorrect! High tension, LOW heart rate.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:08 PM

Leangains is a good site. Been there. Many here are super knowledgeable (best site on the net IMHO), so I posted here. As for my workout, My weight training sessions only last 30-60min. Climbing is another animal...high tension,is heart rate, calm breath, concentration, long rests....intermittent output. Works well with ketosis and fasting.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:03 PM

Yeah, I'm VLC/ZC. See my above comments to greymouser. My training feels great. Last Sunday, I got up at 6am, ate a pile of home dried, very fatty beef jerky, got on the rock cliffs outdoors by 7:30am, climbed intermittently until 6pm HARD wih only a few small handfuls of coconut flakes and water, took the train back to Tokyo, and ate a pile of beef BBQ at 9:30pm! Strong all day. As for the MDA 16 hrs issue: if one breaks the fast at 16hrs, and that's the point at which fasting benefits BEGIN to happen, then he workout falls BEFORE that optimization period, sort of defeating the point..?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Of FASTED training begin, that is.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:53 PM

As I'm meat only with the occasional greens, I find climbig to match ketosis very nicely. High tension, low heart rare output gives the body ample time to supply energy via fat, where as carbs quick refuel time suits mountain hiking at elevated heart rate. I have zero problems doing my climbing for hours on end on a fast accordingly. I weight train too, and usually do so 3-4hrs after a meat breakfast and feel fine. But hiking I miss carbs. Mainly my question was about at what point in hrs after a meal do the autophagic and growth hormone releasing benefits of faster training begin.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:46 PM

I realize autophagy is continual, but it is supposed to really ramp up during a fast. So I'm wondering at how many hours after the last meal does it ramp up. As for my routine, climbing, sport climbing on rope or in the gym, is way different than lifting weights the way most do, or cardio. Your heart rate stays low. You don't loose your breath. You climb a run, in concentration, with mostly slow, very high tension movements, and alot of isometrics. Output ranges a few minutes. Then you rest for several minutes or even have long breaks talking or studying the routes.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 31, 2012
at 09:35 PM

Way to pick up the slack Amy B.!

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on May 31, 2012
at 03:24 PM

@Dan - here's an explanation in plain English in case Amerindian was a little too biochem textbooky for ya. When you go a while without eating your body gets the message that there isn't a whole lot of food around, so it has to protect and preserve itself. It does this by breaking down old, worn out, and damaged cells and cell parts. Some of it might be used as fuel, some of it's just gotten rid of as a kind of "housekeeping." There's more to it, but that's the very simple version. (No offense, Amerindian! Your answer is right, but maybe a little technical for someone asking what it *is.*)

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 31, 2012
at 10:19 AM

Autophagy is the process of self-digestion by a cell through the action of enzymes originating within the same cell.

194d8e8140425057fe06202e1e5822a7

(3979)

on May 31, 2012
at 06:04 AM

whats autophagy

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4 Answers

2
Dfe1dfb34939145fe21b3d8fa6832365

on May 31, 2012
at 03:09 PM

In my experience I can tell when I'm in a deep fasted state (when I would consider autophagy happening the most) in a few ways.

True, strong hunger feeling. Not emotional or due to lack of activity, but persistent. I usually get a unique taste in my mouth (probably lots of ketones). Extremely heightened senses, and in some cases a very strong forceful feeling of physical ability (Just feeling really capable physically and mentally). Thought is very clear.

Ultimately, with enough fasting you'll know when you're in a fasted state, it just takes some experience. For me, at least, the feeling is clear, and I know exactly what my body is up to. Maybe others here experience this as well.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Sounds exactly how I feel towards the end of a long climbing session while fasted for 8+hrs.

1
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on May 31, 2012
at 01:41 PM

For autophagy, that's a bodily process that's always happening. What are you curious about, exactly?

For fasting, some schools of thought consider breaking the "3-6 meals a day" routine, with any larger than common gap of time an intermittent fasting protocol. By this logic, if you worked out just prior to the next meal after more than 2-5 hours, you are "fasted."

Other schools of thought (which I subscribe to) consider the minimum amount of time at least 12 hours. I stick with 16 hours, since it's fairly easy to accomplish with a 8PM-begin-fast, sleep, morning workout, 12PM-break-fast routine.

Even if you are only somewhat fasted when you begin your routine at 3PM, it also sounds like you have a routine of substantial duration, so definitely take that into account. I would be wasted after 4 hours of climbing and not eating for 8 hours before, even though I regularly fast 16 hours, and workout for at least 1 hour.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:46 PM

I realize autophagy is continual, but it is supposed to really ramp up during a fast. So I'm wondering at how many hours after the last meal does it ramp up. As for my routine, climbing, sport climbing on rope or in the gym, is way different than lifting weights the way most do, or cardio. Your heart rate stays low. You don't loose your breath. You climb a run, in concentration, with mostly slow, very high tension movements, and alot of isometrics. Output ranges a few minutes. Then you rest for several minutes or even have long breaks talking or studying the routes.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Of FASTED training begin, that is.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:53 PM

As I'm meat only with the occasional greens, I find climbig to match ketosis very nicely. High tension, low heart rare output gives the body ample time to supply energy via fat, where as carbs quick refuel time suits mountain hiking at elevated heart rate. I have zero problems doing my climbing for hours on end on a fast accordingly. I weight train too, and usually do so 3-4hrs after a meat breakfast and feel fine. But hiking I miss carbs. Mainly my question was about at what point in hrs after a meal do the autophagic and growth hormone releasing benefits of faster training begin.

0
D07a525f9021f8d72bf6aaa52893c795

(1011)

on May 31, 2012
at 02:21 PM

Look - you're not likely to get the answers here! IMHO better to take a look at the "lean gains" site, which will likely answer the questions you haven't thought of yet. "Eat stop eat" is still one of the best sources out there on IF. MDA, already mentioned, is also OK.

Bottom line: work out not before 5hrs have lapsed since you tossed the haunch you were gnawing on. Furthermore, it is best to make the work out shorter, and early evening, then eat again soon after - as soon as you feel hungry - don't force feed. Bedtime 4 - 5 hrs after that.

I think you are clearly doing quite sufficient resistance work to offset potential catabolism, while still getting the desirable autophagic benefits of IF. I only question the timings of meals - there is no escape from diurnal hormone rhythm - none! Therefore, dine accordingly - nothing after 7pm latest. Breakfast is for debate. Only opinion, but if you can't delay, then the coffee/butter/coconut oil ("starvation mode") breakfast seems like a good approach.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:09 PM

Stupid iPhone autocorrect! High tension, LOW heart rate.

D07a525f9021f8d72bf6aaa52893c795

(1011)

on June 01, 2012
at 01:45 PM

@animaleater - seen some of your other posts, and feel unworthy! As long as this site remains "agenda free", I agree. Shame some "members" don't contribute! Never really been into climbing, but I can see its awesomeness, right along with gymnastics. My answer now has been edited slightly.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:08 PM

Leangains is a good site. Been there. Many here are super knowledgeable (best site on the net IMHO), so I posted here. As for my workout, My weight training sessions only last 30-60min. Climbing is another animal...high tension,is heart rate, calm breath, concentration, long rests....intermittent output. Works well with ketosis and fasting.

0
7e6644836cdbcbe2b06307ff7db92d31

(693)

on May 31, 2012
at 02:01 PM

Thought I recalled that MDA had the benefits of fasting kicking in around 16 hours, and increasing thereafter, to a point of diminishing return, which I'm not sure I ever saw.

I don't know how much of a factual answer you can get here, but I've kind of embraced 16 hours. With a daily 16/8 IF, that's just skipping breakfast and then in your case, perhaps lunch to get out to 3:00.

Many have remarked that they could never work out without eating. I'm certainly not an elite athlete, but I've put in very good work (relatively) at 20+ hours.

If you're LC for a while, and the engine is running smoothly, it might be surprisingly easy. Probably at least worth a try.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on May 31, 2012
at 11:03 PM

Yeah, I'm VLC/ZC. See my above comments to greymouser. My training feels great. Last Sunday, I got up at 6am, ate a pile of home dried, very fatty beef jerky, got on the rock cliffs outdoors by 7:30am, climbed intermittently until 6pm HARD wih only a few small handfuls of coconut flakes and water, took the train back to Tokyo, and ate a pile of beef BBQ at 9:30pm! Strong all day. As for the MDA 16 hrs issue: if one breaks the fast at 16hrs, and that's the point at which fasting benefits BEGIN to happen, then he workout falls BEFORE that optimization period, sort of defeating the point..?

7e6644836cdbcbe2b06307ff7db92d31

(693)

on June 01, 2012
at 02:50 PM

A 16/8 has other benefits in it's own right. I'll stretch the 16/8 out periodically by skipping lunch to engage in genuinely fasted training, get to workout fasted at 20-22 hours. MDA has HGH increase with fasting and heavy resistance, and he delays post-workout meal in an attempt to draw a synergistic bounce from the two effects (insulin supposed to downregulate HGH). I bet you could eat dinner at 8 pm, skip breakfast and lunch, and climb fasted very effectively at 3:00. Would put you in the sweet spot, and doubt it would be a problem at all, at least if belayed.

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