8

votes

How do you secure optimal nutrition on a low plant diet?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created December 13, 2011 at 12:23 AM

I was reading through some old hacks, specifically these two,

http://paleohacks.com/questions/82027/how-important-are-greens#axzz1gMVhbcbc

http://paleohacks.com/questions/36094/what-am-i-missing-by-not-eating-green-vegetables#axzz1gMVhbcbc

And the general consensus was that vegetables aren't required in high amounts for health. Moderate amounts for hormetic benefits is good, but more is not always better. I have found that in order to reach a lot of my RDA's I need to consume a ton of veggies, and I am starting to think I might be consuming too much (we are talking Wahl amount here). Generally I wouldn't be too concerned, but I caught Chris Masterjohn's review of "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman, which somehow led me to http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com and it really got me thinking about plant toxins. I know "Peatarians" view veggies as worthless, but many of them eat lots of fruit and dairy(milk is very micronutrient rich) to compensate, something my gut just doesn't allow.

I consume organ meats about twice a week, and lots of shellfish but stuff like liver should be consumed cautiously because of it's high retinol content. I imagine the RDA's don't have to be met everyday, except maybe the water soluable vitamins?

Either way, I am curious to know how many of you "low plant" consumers get your micronutrients daily. Or should it not matter as long as we consume liver and shellfish every week or so? Like Travis Culp stated, "(Leafy greens) Shouldn't be necessary except with the sloppiest of paleo diets. Eat 'em if you like 'em though."

What would constitute a sloppy paleo diet in your eyes?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on December 19, 2011
at 03:26 AM

oh, and I drink kombucha & black tea w/cream daily

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on December 19, 2011
at 03:23 AM

B: 3 eggs scrambled in butter w/lactose-free sour cream & salsa. L: liver paté on cheese slices. D: steak or burger w/pickles & maybe some sauteed chard/spinach. Snack: home-made low-sugar jello or dark chocolate or kefir smoothie w/bananas. I usually eat 2 meals & a snack, rarely 3 full meals.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on December 19, 2011
at 02:59 AM

Dragonfly since you seem to have a better handle on the digestive front, can you give me a sample day's diet for you? I just can't wrap my head around a veg-free meal.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on December 14, 2011
at 12:59 PM

You mean books like this? http://bit.ly/rA6zOk - Certainly not as opinionated as you.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on December 13, 2011
at 06:40 PM

wow, i AM serious, and I guess I will not take offense to the down vote(s) ???

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on December 13, 2011
at 03:07 PM

If one ate the entire animal nose-to-tail yes but just muscle meat would not be enough to be healthy long term.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on December 13, 2011
at 03:04 PM

I brew kombucha and water kefir - plus my 14 year old son loves them both - he has not had a soda in years now.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on December 13, 2011
at 02:36 PM

Optimal nutrition is quite a slippery thing to define

7b11ed525ffa23bc7257684e27488a6a

(366)

on December 13, 2011
at 02:16 PM

Good question. I don't like a whole lot of fiber either, but as someone who eats pretty low carb, I do feel and function best with fermented foods eaten nearly daily. So many factors to microbial health. I really can't say for sure why traditional peoples consumed them, only that they did; the more carnivorous ones especially. WA Price did find fermentation a commonality in the groups he studied in the 30s. Do you eat a good deal of carbs, Cliff?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:43 PM

I've personally felt my best digestion wise with the least amount of fiber and fermented foods. Do these people ferment foods for health or because its a necessity they would die of starvation without?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:31 PM

If you are being sarcastic, I will upvote, but I am unsure.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on December 13, 2011
at 12:46 PM

All fruit gives you diarrhea?? That sounds like a pretty serious health problem. Dairy you can slowly incorporate to build a tolerance but its not necessarily essential, fruits are though imo.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on December 13, 2011
at 12:45 PM

Brain selective minerals is a made up term but milk is rich in all the minerals that are supposedly "brain selective" lol. If you drink enough to meet protein needs you get 100% of pretty much all the "brain selective minerals", that term is BS though, no mention of it in one scholar article and the only place it comes up is in opinionated books.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on December 13, 2011
at 08:12 AM

Milk isn't "very micronutrient rich" when it comes to brain selective minerals.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:40 AM

All this talk about water kefir. I really have to make time to make it.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:39 AM

@Cliff...dairy and fruit give me diarrhea and general symptoms of inflamation (skin problems, joint pain,etc).

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:26 AM

Stop letting your gut prevent you from experimenting?? If you eat the right fruits/tubers plus egg shells you can meet everything pretty easy without milk.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on December 13, 2011
at 12:56 AM

i'm curious about this too. i eat greens with every meal. and terry wahls's version of paleo includes bucketfuls of veg.

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5 Answers

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1
7b11ed525ffa23bc7257684e27488a6a

(366)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:28 PM

Tripe, sweetbreads, heart (and other organs besides liver), fish, herbs and spices can round out the nutritional profile nicely. Many people fail to include herbs and spices when tracking, and depending on how much you use, it can add significant nutrition. For example, rose hips are an excellent source of vitamin C, and 2 tablespoons of dried dill weed contains 10% RDI of calcium. Since herbs and spices are often consumed dried, they may not cause the digestion distress that high water, high fiber plant foods do. Eating some food raw will ensure that more of the heat sensitive nutrients stay intake. Also, many people do take supplements as getting adequate nutrition can be difficult, depending on location, eating habits, etc.

I agree that plant consumption is important for microbial health. Eating fermented plant and animal foods is a good idea; and if you look at traditional meat-eating cultures, you will find raw and fermented foods on the regular menu.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:43 PM

I've personally felt my best digestion wise with the least amount of fiber and fermented foods. Do these people ferment foods for health or because its a necessity they would die of starvation without?

7b11ed525ffa23bc7257684e27488a6a

(366)

on December 13, 2011
at 02:16 PM

Good question. I don't like a whole lot of fiber either, but as someone who eats pretty low carb, I do feel and function best with fermented foods eaten nearly daily. So many factors to microbial health. I really can't say for sure why traditional peoples consumed them, only that they did; the more carnivorous ones especially. WA Price did find fermentation a commonality in the groups he studied in the 30s. Do you eat a good deal of carbs, Cliff?

4
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on December 13, 2011
at 12:32 AM

A wide variety of muscle meat, bone marrow/gristle/cartilage and organ meats is a great start. I don't totally exclude dairy so cream, butter and (home made, full-fat) yogurt help a lot too. I brew water kefir which adds quite a bit to my nutrition.

Without having mentioned plants, I've already come pretty close to optimal. In my case, I happen to add a leafy salad and a cup of raw fruit per day mostly because I enjoy them.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:40 AM

All this talk about water kefir. I really have to make time to make it.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on December 13, 2011
at 03:04 PM

I brew kombucha and water kefir - plus my 14 year old son loves them both - he has not had a soda in years now.

3
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:39 AM

I don't eat many plant foods due to difficulty digesting FODMAPS.

Also, I don't pay attention to the RDA,but I have experimented and what works for me is adding in judicious supplements.

I eat chicken liver pat?? 2-3x a week, gelatin weekly and bone broth occasionally, when my husband makes it. Also lactose-free kefir, sour cream, heavy cream & butter.

I supplement D, Magnesium, E, Zinc, and C. Occasionally some krill oil when I have eaten out.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on December 19, 2011
at 03:23 AM

B: 3 eggs scrambled in butter w/lactose-free sour cream & salsa. L: liver paté on cheese slices. D: steak or burger w/pickles & maybe some sauteed chard/spinach. Snack: home-made low-sugar jello or dark chocolate or kefir smoothie w/bananas. I usually eat 2 meals & a snack, rarely 3 full meals.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on December 19, 2011
at 03:26 AM

oh, and I drink kombucha & black tea w/cream daily

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on December 19, 2011
at 02:59 AM

Dragonfly since you seem to have a better handle on the digestive front, can you give me a sample day's diet for you? I just can't wrap my head around a veg-free meal.

2
36ba71ea8bc4f736f4113433fde572bd

(347)

on December 13, 2011
at 12:37 PM

I'm a fan of Dr Paul Jaminet's logic behind 400-600 calories/day from starches. If I'm not mistaken, his logic is pretty similar to Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet. It has an elegance that I like.

Also, I think a form of a precautionary principle applies here. I believe that you won't find a plant-free ancestral diet. Why? I don't know, but I think it's wise to maintain some humility here. There is much tha we don't know about diet and health, more than most people could imagine.

And, gut microbiota influence health in many ways, and they require plant material to live. This goes beyond macro or micro nutrients, now you're in the territory of direct immune system and hormonal regulation. Gut microbes need soluble fibers from plants. Now, this assumes you have a healthy gut balance to begin with. Shrug.

Re-reading your question, I realize I'm not answering it at all. I think that one measure of your success is your digestion. Excessive plant matter could cause gas, bloating, indigestion. If your digestion is good, then that's one argument for staying on track.

0
1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

on December 13, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Eat GRASS FED BEEF, it has all the nutrients your body needs. ALL .

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on December 13, 2011
at 06:40 PM

wow, i AM serious, and I guess I will not take offense to the down vote(s) ???

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on December 13, 2011
at 03:07 PM

If one ate the entire animal nose-to-tail yes but just muscle meat would not be enough to be healthy long term.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 13, 2011
at 01:31 PM

If you are being sarcastic, I will upvote, but I am unsure.

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