-5

votes

If paleo is correct for us... why do we need a Vitamin B12 supplement?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created April 04, 2013 at 9:51 PM

Serious answers only. I don't need a noob answer like its found out in nature because that is BS.

EDIT: The science says that 99% of the B12 produced industrially is for animal feed. Naturally.. there wouldn't be enough B12 in animals for us?

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 06, 2013
at 02:21 AM

@cobalamin, such strident assertions demand solid empirical evidence if they are to be taken seriously.

2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on April 05, 2013
at 10:19 PM

go away babydick

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:20 PM

Ignorance is bliss. B12 is UV sensitive. - Gorilla's only eat their feces for B12 when they are in zoo's.

37cc142fbb183f2758ef723a192e7a9d

(1353)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:11 PM

That's right, all animals have been B12 deficient until humans invented feed supplements 60 years ago. *slow clap*

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 02:17 PM

Ah, well spotted. Googled and found this: https://www.mja.com.au/open/2012/1/2/vitamin-b12-and-vegetarian-diets

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 02:17 PM

Ah, well spotted. Google and found this: https://www.mja.com.au/open/2012/1/2/vitamin-b12-and-vegetarian-diets

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:42 PM

Cobalt is the essential part of B12. And let me introduce you to the concept of 'vitamers' (distinct compounds each having vitamin activity) of which B12 has a few (methyl, hydroxy, cyano, adenosyl...) But you're a troll, so who gives a shit what you think. :)

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:57 AM

**@mary** You're supplementing with magnesium, iodine and melatonin... All signs that you should be eating leafy greens for the magnesium, iodine and taking B12 to stimulate melatonin production. If paleo worked, you wouldn't need supplements. **@Happy_Now** Why do people keep spreading BS if they are uninformed? **@sarah** "pretty sure" isn't being **100% sure.** Majority of meat/seafood, including Clams, oysters and mussels, is FARMED and FED supplements. I bet that the majority of paleo eaters don't eat grass-fed meat because its too expensive! Talk about hypocrisy.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:55 AM

**@Mash** The study is from **2003**. Things have changed big time since then.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:51 AM

Is ignorance really bliss?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:49 AM

Cobalt is a mineral and the smallest part of B12. Multiple B12's? Thats a new load of crap. Unfortunately your mentality will keep you forever ignorant.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:41 AM

@mary You're supplementing with magnesium, iodine and melatonin... All signs that you should be eating leafy greens for the magnesium, iodine and taking B12 to stimulate melatonin production. If paleo worked, you wouldn't need supplements. @Happy_Now Why do people keep spreading BS if they are uninformed? @sarah "pretty sure" isn't being 100% sure. Majority of meat/seafood, including Clams, oysters and mussels, is FARMED and FED supplements. I bet that the majority of paleo eaters don't eat grass-fed meat because its too expensive! Talk about hypocrisy.

81feb1022a28f534867616b9316c7aa4

(638)

on April 05, 2013
at 09:45 AM

Clams, oysters and mussels are a great source of b12, pretty sure they are not "fed" the B12 via supplements/un-natural sources.... so is caviar, fish, octopus.. pretty much any seafood. And thats without mentioning lamb, beef and veal which are grass fed- they are still a great source of vit b12 even if they are not supplemented on it.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:58 AM

I just read his post to find the bias, couldn't really spot it but did spot the big bold sentence with the link: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/131.long

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 05, 2013
at 01:44 AM

This is just not true. I do not doubt that industrialized food producers would manage to cram the cheapest source of any available vitamins into products they produce (enriched flour comes to mind), but all the from-wild sourced versions of the foods I listed rank high in B12. So, not to vituperate on you, but your sources must be very flawed.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 05, 2013
at 01:07 AM

@cobalamin, who says we're educated? This is crowd sourcing, you get what you pay for.

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:46 AM

Ok I consider my diet to be quite Paleo-based but I draw the line at gorilla poo! :)

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:40 AM

http://freetheanimal.com/2010/09/dr-seale-any-b12-present-in-animal-foods-is-only-because-of-bacterial-contamination.html

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:22 AM

only you are hearing your big a-haa moment. Wut was your point then ? if as your insinuating the paleo diet is "incorrect" as we (according to you ) have to supplement with b12 then what diet are you advocating whereby you would get vitamin B12..wut were you trying to prove with your question-besides being confrontational and trollish. I guess tht was your only lofty aim -well done. mission accomplished~

5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:06 AM

Ahh I wasn't sure if you were a troll but I guess you are. Sorry I fed you and I wish you all you deserve in life!

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:02 AM

ooops..spelled it wrong (big surprise :)

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:02 AM

LOL. Ignorance is bliss I must say. **@eddieosh** We aren't ruminants and its a disgrace comparing us to them. **@Mary** The paper you linked can get someone killed! I don't need to supplement; I know how humans produce it with bacteria. **@Thrak** You don't understand the paper you linked but I certainly do! And its only a small part of the B12 science. - I wanted to see how stupid people are. You guys confirmed my hypothesis that educated people are the stupid people on this planet.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:01 AM

..omnonaoapeoooep poetic :) good word! ( now that ive looked it up..it certainly is onomatopeic...thrak-on my friend..:)

5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:50 PM

Thraked I like it. Rather onomatopoeic :)

5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:49 PM

Thrashed :) I like it. Rather onomatopoeic.

24c27817ad9ac518946dda4a131737b5

on April 04, 2013
at 11:39 PM

-1 for the general stupidity of the OP. Confuses vegetarian recommendation for Paleo recommendation, then asks lazy, stupid questions.

5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:38 PM

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/b12.html if you want a slightly longer bit of information on how we and our food synthesize b12. I won't pretend to know for sure but it looks like the gut bacteria in cows would work more efficiently with grass.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:33 PM

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html - have fun with that :)

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:33 PM

I thought we were talking about cows, but okay, we make a little of our own, or rather the bacteria in our guts makes a little, so it really depends on them, but I suspect like other things (like other b-vitamins and vitamin C), we don't manufacture all we need because we evolved with ample sources of it in the animals (organ meats in particular) we were eating to meet our needs. Okay, done feeding the trolls for the day.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:29 PM

@cobalt are you deficient in b12 and supplementing as a result?

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:22 PM

Well as I live and learn, B12 is a fascinating subject (I know, I should get out more!). Just goes to show how important 'eating as close to nature' is. http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bovine_Rumen

24c27817ad9ac518946dda4a131737b5

on April 04, 2013
at 11:21 PM

+1 The point. OP confuses this for a vegetarian forum.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:20 PM

You actually dodged the question. Why don't we make it ourselves?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:15 PM

Rawwr! Put your claws away dude! This is a discussion not a fight. I phrased it in a passive voice because all of nutritional science is theoretical. We think we know some things, but must be flexible in light of new information. Here's more of an explanation. Grain fed cattle are prone to disbyosis and fed a shit ton of antibiotics, and because their guts are screwed up they don't produce as much endogenous b-12 in their intestines as cows that stay on pasture and have healthier gut flora.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:11 PM

I like the truth. I am not vegan but what chris says is BIAS. The vegan population must be like 3-6%(?) of the total population and the omnivore population must be like 90-97(?) of the total population. So when you say 83% of vegans.. you means 83% OF 3-6% of the total vegan population? - What also needs to be taken into account is if those vegans were borderline B12 deficient before they stopped eating meat. Lots and lots of BIAS.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:10 PM

I like the truth. I am not vegan but what chris says is BIAS. The vegan population must be like 3-6%(?) of the total vegan population and the omnivore population must be like 90-97(?) of the total population. So when you say 83% of vegans.. you means 83% OF 3-6% of the total vegan population? - What also needs to be taken into account is if those vegans were borderline B12 deficient before they stopped eating meat. Lots and lots of BIAS.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:00 PM

..........youve just been Thrakkked! :)

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:59 PM

What the? Pasture means eating grass. I understood. I asked about what they'd naturally encounter.. fill me in?

5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:53 PM

If you don't know that pasture fed mean grass perhaps you have no clue. Be civil or be banned.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:50 PM

"But a study using the more sensitive techniques found much higher rates of deficiency: 68% for vegetarians and 83% of vegans, compared to just 5% of omnivores" @cobalmin- its not going to be as huge of an problem in an omnivorous diet-and if you have those issues that would be causing malabsoprtion mentioned above then you would be questioning your absorption of ALL KINDS OF NUTRIENTS..not solely B12 http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:39 PM

B12 is found in abundance in animals because it is being fed to them from industrial produced sources... How is that natural?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:38 PM

B12 is found in abundance because it is being fed to them... How is that natural?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:37 PM

**they'd naturally encounter what they need to make their own B12.** And what is that? If you have no clue, then you aren't sure at all.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:34 PM

**"In fact, many of my patients that are B12 deficient are following a Paleo diet where they eat meat 2-3 times a day."** -If this is true... why isn't anyone saying anything about it? B-right supplement contains titanium dioxide. No thanks.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:26 PM

I'm pretty sure most animals are fed supplements because they aren't on pasture where they'd naturally encounter what they need to make their own B12.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:24 PM

^This pretty much sums it up, how many of us don't have screwed up guts to a certain extent?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:09 PM

B12 is found in abundance because it is being fed to them... How is that natural?

  • 4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

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11 Answers

8
C891222a32e02a466cae8a8c952b36f6

(80)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:59 PM

"Cows that are grass fed are able to get enough B12 from the soil that is naturally found on grass and grass roots." http://www.321natural.com/2012/09/vegan-b12-sources.html

"Cows are ruminants, as are bison, buffalo, goats, antelopes, sheep, deer, and giraffes (1). Ruminants have a four-chambered stomach and a rich supply of bacteria in their rumen (the first chamber that their food enters) (1). Some of these bacteria produce B12 in amounts normally sufficient to meet their needs (2). " http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal

That was easy to find. Not sure why you think there's no way for animals to get B12 naturally. That doesn't really make sense does it? How would animals survive without human intervention if they couldn't get a nutrient they required from eating their natural food source?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:20 PM

Ignorance is bliss. B12 is UV sensitive. - Gorilla's only eat their feces for B12 when they are in zoo's.

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:46 AM

Ok I consider my diet to be quite Paleo-based but I draw the line at gorilla poo! :)

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 06, 2013
at 02:21 AM

@cobalamin, such strident assertions demand solid empirical evidence if they are to be taken seriously.

7
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 04, 2013
at 09:58 PM

Humans don't need a B12 supplement for optimal health. It's one of the most accessible vitamins there is - liver, beef, lamb, seafood (shrimp, squid, octopus, crab, lobster, bivalves like clams & mussels), eggs, and even cheese (if that's your schtick).

Someone gravely misinformed you - castigate them.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:38 PM

B12 is found in abundance because it is being fed to them... How is that natural?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 05, 2013
at 01:44 AM

This is just not true. I do not doubt that industrialized food producers would manage to cram the cheapest source of any available vitamins into products they produce (enriched flour comes to mind), but all the from-wild sourced versions of the foods I listed rank high in B12. So, not to vituperate on you, but your sources must be very flawed.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:39 PM

B12 is found in abundance in animals because it is being fed to them from industrial produced sources... How is that natural?

6
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 05, 2013
at 01:50 AM

Animals consume cobalt, not B12, which is then metabolized by bacteria into cobalamins (multiple active vitamin B12s) and if done so in the right place in the gut, it is then absorbed by the animal. Unfortunately for humans, B12 production occurs to low in the GI tract to be absorbed.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:49 AM

Cobalt is a mineral and the smallest part of B12. Multiple B12's? Thats a new load of crap. Unfortunately your mentality will keep you forever ignorant.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:42 PM

Cobalt is the essential part of B12. And let me introduce you to the concept of 'vitamers' (distinct compounds each having vitamin activity) of which B12 has a few (methyl, hydroxy, cyano, adenosyl...) But you're a troll, so who gives a shit what you think. :)

6
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:25 AM

we don't make any of our essential nutrients. That's why they are essential.

Animals are not "fed" B12. They consume B12 naturally via bacterial symbiosis -- naturally.

Good try though.

6
A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:00 PM

I had to check the date there! Are you sure you're on the right forum?

Vitamin B12 is found in animal products such as meat, shellfish, milk, cheese, and eggs. Most people who eat animal products are not likely to develop vitamin B12 deficiency anemia unless their bodies can't absorb it from food. Strict vegetarians (vegans) who do not eat animal products and babies of mothers who are strict vegetarians are at increased risk for developing anemia and should take a supplement containing vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 is stored in the liver for a year or more, which reduces a person's risk of anemia.

24c27817ad9ac518946dda4a131737b5

on April 04, 2013
at 11:21 PM

+1 The point. OP confuses this for a vegetarian forum.

5
A048b66e08306d405986b6c04bf5e8e4

on April 04, 2013
at 09:55 PM

If you eat meat/animal products, you should be ok on your B12. If you're eating Paleo, you'll be eating animals/animal products, and therefore meeting your daily vitamin B12 quota so you shouldn't need a B12 suppliment.

4
9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

on April 04, 2013
at 09:56 PM

I don't take a B12 supplement -- why do you think you need one? Paleo foods primarily meat and organs are high in B12. Eating liver once a week probably gives you all the B12 you need.

3
Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:17 PM

This may be useful...

22.04.2013 update: How prevalent is vitamin B(12) deficiency among vegetarians? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23356638


January 18, 2013: http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency

May 6, 2011: http://chriskresser.com/b12-deficiency-a-silent-epidemic-with-serious-consequences

Why is B12 deficiency so common?

The absorption of B12 is complex and involves several steps ??? each of which can go wrong

Causes of B12 malabsorption include:

intestinal dysbiosis
leaky gut and/or gut inflammation
atrophic gastrits or hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid)
pernicious anemia (autoimmune condition)
medications (especially PPIs and other acid-suppressing drugs)
alcohol
exposure to nitrous oxide (during surgery or recreational use)

This explains why B12 deficiency can occur even in people eating large amounts of B12-containing animal products. In fact, many of my patients that are B12 deficient are following a Paleo diet where they eat meat 2-3 times a day.

I personally take http://www.jarrow.com/product/57/B-Right once a week.

89fa2da4805b0b4e54b77a5a20a2e206

(2097)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:50 PM

"But a study using the more sensitive techniques found much higher rates of deficiency: 68% for vegetarians and 83% of vegans, compared to just 5% of omnivores" @cobalmin- its not going to be as huge of an problem in an omnivorous diet-and if you have those issues that would be causing malabsoprtion mentioned above then you would be questioning your absorption of ALL KINDS OF NUTRIENTS..not solely B12 http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:24 PM

^This pretty much sums it up, how many of us don't have screwed up guts to a certain extent?

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:58 AM

I just read his post to find the bias, couldn't really spot it but did spot the big bold sentence with the link: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/131.long

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:34 PM

**"In fact, many of my patients that are B12 deficient are following a Paleo diet where they eat meat 2-3 times a day."** -If this is true... why isn't anyone saying anything about it? B-right supplement contains titanium dioxide. No thanks.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 02:17 PM

Ah, well spotted. Google and found this: https://www.mja.com.au/open/2012/1/2/vitamin-b12-and-vegetarian-diets

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:55 AM

**@Mash** The study is from **2003**. Things have changed big time since then.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:10 PM

I like the truth. I am not vegan but what chris says is BIAS. The vegan population must be like 3-6%(?) of the total vegan population and the omnivore population must be like 90-97(?) of the total population. So when you say 83% of vegans.. you means 83% OF 3-6% of the total vegan population? - What also needs to be taken into account is if those vegans were borderline B12 deficient before they stopped eating meat. Lots and lots of BIAS.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 11:11 PM

I like the truth. I am not vegan but what chris says is BIAS. The vegan population must be like 3-6%(?) of the total population and the omnivore population must be like 90-97(?) of the total population. So when you say 83% of vegans.. you means 83% OF 3-6% of the total vegan population? - What also needs to be taken into account is if those vegans were borderline B12 deficient before they stopped eating meat. Lots and lots of BIAS.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 05, 2013
at 02:17 PM

Ah, well spotted. Googled and found this: https://www.mja.com.au/open/2012/1/2/vitamin-b12-and-vegetarian-diets

2
2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on April 05, 2013
at 12:29 AM

get out .

1
6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 05, 2013
at 01:10 AM

Um...we don't. Whatcha smokin'?

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 05, 2013
at 11:51 AM

Is ignorance really bliss?

1
C07939fb80c1f445cbb5b0469d665a8e

on April 04, 2013
at 10:01 PM

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2 Scroll down to "vitamins" and look under B12 It is found in abundance throughout animal products. There is no need to supplement B12 if you get sufficient amounts through diet.

4f6d3725feca09ff49e4997f2d2d026b

(18)

on April 04, 2013
at 10:09 PM

B12 is found in abundance because it is being fed to them... How is that natural?

37cc142fbb183f2758ef723a192e7a9d

(1353)

on April 05, 2013
at 06:11 PM

That's right, all animals have been B12 deficient until humans invented feed supplements 60 years ago. *slow clap*

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