5

votes

Hypertension almost cured with supplements, but is coming back. Any ideas? (Update)

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 14, 2011 at 10:18 PM

I'm 27 and male, 5'9" and 165 lbs. Back in June, the doc measured my BP as 160/90. White coat syndrome, sure, but my own readings were still hovering around 142/88. With exercise and supplements (CoQ-10, garlic, hawthorn, olive leaf, magnesium, fish oil) I got it down to averaging ~124/82 and hypertensive readings were rare if ever.

In October I started paleo+dairy, but disappointingly that had no effect. Then, over the holiday break my BP started rising - now I'm waking up with ~120/80 but most days it's hitting hypertensive levels in the evening. Once it was even 150/88. I can often get it down to 120/80 if I sit calmly, however. I'm baffled - can anyone share their experiences?

I don't want to go on medication, if I can avoid it. I have a doc's appointment on Feb. 8 to schedule some bloodwork, and if it's not under better control she may recommend a drug. She's not very useful for other advice on this, regrettably.

edit: resting heart rate was 58 a couple months ago, but now is 65 or 70. Strange.

edit 2: I'm going to try a targeted ketogenic diet, as well as significantly reducing dairy. Even if the lower carbs don't bring it down directly, I may lower BP by losing fat. I'll report back later with updates, thank you all for your help so far.

Update 2/9: I've been on the targeted ketogenic diet since I posted this, and my results have been great - BP is usually in the 120s, and sometimes in the 110s if I've been sitting. It still shoots up occasionally - upon coming in from the cold, I'm sometimes still hypertensive - but it quickly drops to the 120s. But at the doc's office yesterday, they read 170/84! I have a serious nerves problem - I was hoping to impress the doc, but now I've gotta go back in a month and bring my home device.

Update 11/6: My BP was pretty good for the few months following my last update; it would usually get to 110/70 if I made sure I was relaxed, although if I was anxious it would still hit hypertensive levels. But in the last month or so, I've been hypertensive a lot, and my tinnitus has started to come back. Asked Paul Jaminet about it in person, and he asvides getting on the supplements they recommend, so I'm getting back on CoQ-10, kelp (iodine), K-2, and magnesium, and starting selenium and copper. Still very little idea on why this remains an issue; very little has been written about it in the paleosphere. I have been having lattes more regularly lately; caffeine or casein might have a role?

Update 2/6: BP has been mildly better. I've started garlic supplementation and have increased veggie intake including beets and celery. I don't think most of the supplements in the last update did much, but cleaner eating has been a marginal help. Diastolic has remained mostly good, with readings usually normal. Systolic sometimes still lands in the hypertensive zone, but not usually. It's strange to me when I get readings of 130/69! I wish more knowledgeable health bloggers would post on the topic!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on February 07, 2012
at 06:53 AM

I'm guessing he means long term. There are a million reasons why bp will rise in the short term: pre-eclampsia, acute stress, during exercise (you get the idea)....

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on February 07, 2012
at 03:01 AM

Do you check your blood glucose? To my surprise, I accidentally found my bp moves in lockstep with my bg. With VLC I'd expect your bg to be good but if I were you I'd definitely check. If you don't already, you need to know what spikes your bg and what doesn't. For example, dairy doesn't spike mine but some fruits and starch do unless eaten with meat.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on February 07, 2012
at 03:00 AM

"the only way blood pressure can rise is because of a narrowing of the vascular system." Is this true?

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on February 07, 2012
at 02:46 AM

It doesn't hurt to recommend this. Salt is fine for many but sets some people off. Just because it's the mainstream opinion doesn't mean that it's wrong, or wrong for everyone.

C187225c4974db70bce57adf0cbf3052

(0)

on February 07, 2012
at 12:15 AM

Harfatum, I would be very interested in hearing if you have made any additional progress with the supplementation you described in your last update.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on November 07, 2011
at 05:14 AM

Some, but I have never learned in detail the best way to do them. What worked best for you?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 07, 2011
at 01:39 AM

Have you tried breathing exercises? I was using a RESPeRATE device as part of my neurofeedback, and it helped me get off of BP meds. But you don't need the device (all it does is help cue your breathing to slow it down to about 6 breaths/minute).

13db020c06c22c2f8b129034ddc013e4

(340)

on May 17, 2011
at 10:11 PM

I think most here know the mainstream solutions. If you are recommending the mainstream version, it's good to cite from a paleo-aware source.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on February 09, 2011
at 11:44 PM

I've been taking 2-6000 IU daily for a few months - will have blodowork done soon so I'll have some numbers. Strangely, I've been taking it less since I originally posted, and it's come down over that time.

5f0158c23fcb5636e57b4ce097784da0

(1386)

on February 09, 2011
at 10:48 PM

how's your vitamin D level? i know someone who eliminated his HT just by taking enough vitamin D3. as soon as he reduces the dosage, the HT comes back..

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 20, 2011
at 03:32 AM

Thank you for the link! I have long since eliminated neolithic foods beyond a couple tsp of sugar in my tea, and dairy which I am significantly reducing. I'm not sure that necessarily equates to being a fat-burning machine, but I am trying that anyways with a modified targeted ketogenic diet - I'll update with results as I see them.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on January 20, 2011
at 03:11 AM

Harfatum, Dr Davis has just this evening (1/19)posted a success story of a patient of his regarding the reduction of blood pressure. Sounds like it is right up your alley. http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/high-blood-pressure-vanquished.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FmnKK+%28The+Heart+Scan+Blog%29 It reconfirms my post that elimination of the neolithic foods will result in lower BP. Become a fat burning man, and you will not die prematurely from heart disease caused by high blood pressure.

Medium avatar

(3259)

on January 19, 2011
at 01:36 PM

I think there are definitely cardio-protective benefits of a glass a day, as well as it's overall relaxation / stress relief mechanism, but it tends to interfere with sleep and probably leaning out, which are priorities for me right now. Two or three a week seem to have no effect, but I think 7 to 14 do.

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on January 18, 2011
at 05:55 PM

The goLite sounds awesome -- never heard of so I'll have to ck it out! What you are doing is basically 'eating' an ancestral diet -- heart meat contains coQ10, carnitine, o-3 and minerals! I've a lot of paleo 'fails' at paleohacks and I suspect it is the vast shift in the gut from different foods and also the inclusion of dairy if it was not present in the diet earlier... We've healed our gut (90-95%) and actually my family tolerates some degree of raw sheep and goat cheeses now. Robb Wolf has talked about this as well and uses only raw goat/sheep dairy.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:04 PM

Hey Sarah Ann, I just had blood tests and my potassium numbers looked good, so did sodium. I absolutely want to get off the diuretics though. The problem is that without them I can gain 10/12 lbs of water in a day or two. I'll got to figure out how to retrain my body. I'm working on it! I just got off the BP meds last month.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:02 PM

^ hahaha, GLASS of red wine, not class.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Thanks for the info! My blood pressure has been in about the same place as yours. I'd like the bottom number a little lower, but I'll take it. I'm mainly worried about water retention now. I've got my carbs around 75 right now, maybe I'll drop them lower. I've been playing with the idea of a class of red wine a night, but it does seem to mess with the water retention and I hate seeing the scale go up.

Medium avatar

(3259)

on January 18, 2011
at 01:53 PM

Hey sherpamelissa. I feel like I do have it under control. I check it frequently and it's always within what I feel is an acceptable range - 118 to 124 over 80 to 88. It used to be 160+ over 110 so I'd say something's working. COQ10 (100mg twice a day), fish oil, and low carb (<40g) all play a role, I believe. I do drink but only occasionally and reasonably (couple glasses of wine on the weekend or 2-3 vodka-sodas at a party (sadly...few and far between). I used to be a 2-beer-a-day kind of guy. When I do drink now, my heart races and the beat becomes very strong (and scary).

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 18, 2011
at 12:57 PM

@sherpamelissa, those diuretic pills reduce BP in the short-term but deplete potassium even further in the long run, making things worse.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on January 18, 2011
at 04:38 AM

My BP has always been very, very low. In the last 6 month, it is consistently higher.Been Paleo 1 yr

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 04:06 AM

We seem to have a lot in common, Riveted! This is my situation exactly, just dropped blood pressure meds, but still have water retention issues. Do you have yours entirely under control with diet now? Do you drink alcohol at all?

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 11:17 PM

Thanks for your response! I will definitely give them a try. I had a ton of dairy over break. I have already reduced that to just a small amount, and what I do have is grass-fed. I've also recently started using a goLite for "morning sun".

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 09:15 PM

I haven't had any alcohol for months, although before paleo I drank once or twice per month. My BP was lower after I'd had a few, actually - although I know that drinking can worsen it longterm.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 02:33 AM

A bit irrelevant, but I keep running into people from Steepster on here!

26f1c6e9fbecc4ac6948f8f395979a81

(503)

on January 15, 2011
at 02:04 AM

I'm going to watch this post closely because I'm in the same boat as you with almost the same stats. Paleo seems to be making my BP increase.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on January 15, 2011
at 01:23 AM

The Cochrane collaboration does meta-analyses for health science. http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003656.html links to their review showing "Intensive interventions, unsuited to primary care or population prevention programmes, provide only minimal reductions in blood pressure during long-term trials... A low sodium diet may help in maintenance of lower blood pressure following withdrawal of antihypertensives."

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:40 AM

This is one serious study that shows a clear connection between sodium and BP, there are many others, just google "hypertension +sodium" http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/36/5/890

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:07 AM

This is an interesting point. I had noticed a possible connection between excessive dairy/coffee consumption and higher BP, and dairy is insulinogenic. On the other hand, whey protein has been found to reduce blood pressure, so I don't know which way to go on this.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:59 PM

I think the connection is actually between sodium and water retention. I know the first thing they put me on to control my blood pressure was actually a water pill. Almost everyone I know on BP meds take both a diuretic and a blood pressure pill.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:40 PM

Thank you; however, I have been doing weight lifting three times per week for four months.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Link? That hasn't been shown in any paper I'm aware of.

52cae90a114ca8f0404948e2b7ccb7ef

(1595)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:18 PM

a small portion of people are salt sensitive. like with anything, it varies from person to person.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:17 PM

-1 No credible link between salt and hypertension.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:47 PM

It was pretty standard when I first started getting BP under control, maybe 50%? It was really low when I started paleo, 5-10%, but now I'm guessing it's maybe an erratic 5-50%, averaging out to 20%

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:46 PM

It was pretty standard when I first started getting BP under control, maybe 50%? It was really low when I started paleo, 5-10%, but now I'm guessing it's maybe an erratic 5-50%, averaging out to 25%.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Yeah, I would try cutting carbs down or changing the type of carb used.

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10 Answers

3
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on January 18, 2011
at 04:57 AM

Consider that the only way blood pressure can rise is because of a narrowing of the vascular system. There is only one thing that can cause this to happen and that is the body is laying down tiny amounts of plaque all through your vascular system. And what triggers this response is small dense LDL particles circulating through your system irritating the lining of the walls of your circulatory system causing the plaque to be deposited to heal the irritation And we know that sugar/fructose and wheat products and processed carbs are the main culprits in making small dense LDL. Any carb converts directly to forms of glucose which spikes the insulin just the same as straight sugar.

If you want to decrease your BP to normal, you are going to have to become a fat burning machine and go zero carbs. There are no essential carbohydrates that our body needs. We can operate just fine on meat and fat.

It's your call. High BP leads to cardio vascular disease. Have the discipline to avoid all the neolithic foods tempting you to slow kill yourself prematurely. And dairy products all contain sugars...called lactose.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on February 07, 2012
at 03:00 AM

"the only way blood pressure can rise is because of a narrowing of the vascular system." Is this true?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on February 07, 2012
at 06:53 AM

I'm guessing he means long term. There are a million reasons why bp will rise in the short term: pre-eclampsia, acute stress, during exercise (you get the idea)....

3
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on January 14, 2011
at 11:08 PM

I just came off my blood pressure meds. I think that bringing my carbs down to 75-100 grams per day, which is usually 20-25% of my total calories has made a huge difference. Lower carbs seem to keep carb bloat/water retention down, which in turn lowers blood pressure.

2
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on January 15, 2011
at 05:29 PM

Harfatum,

You're working out, no? The extra sweat (and any mild stress) may be further depleting mag. Like Riveted and others suggested, consider nixing the 'd-aleo' for 2-4 wks. Casein in dairy is analagous to gluten proteins in wheat, barley and rye. Insulin may still be spiking too frequently with high carb loads (20-50%), though there still is value in carb cycling once per wk during wt loss I believe to maintain insulin sensitivity (and prevent too restrictive of a diet mentally).

Reversing BP is an amazing medically feat! Hope your MD realizes what you've done (pre-paleo too)!

Consider the high value of:

--cutting out dairy temporarily (i know, tastes so good, hard to give up)

--avoiding insulin/cortisol spikes too frequently which hardens arteries

--are you working out, getting morning sunlight for circadian rhythms, sleep addressed yet? melatonin does lower BP too

--replenishing other lost minerals: zinc, selenium, trace, a little more mag

--alpha lipoic acid -- lowers insulin and improves mitochondrial energetics like the other supplements you take (coQ10, omega-3, mag, etc)

--taurine (a protein supplement) lowers BP (found in raw meat/yolks/fish -- hard to get unless you kill your own meat!): http://www.baumancollege.org/pdfs/articles/MTCardioFinal.pdf

--vitamin D until summer starts (2000 to 5000 IU daily then get a blood test 3 mos later) and even better put your face to sunshine as many mornings as you can! naked, no sunscreen, no makeup (j/k)

--yoga/stretches before bed -- again it is about establishing ancient paleo biorhythms

hope that helps and would love to hear your progress later! -g

3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on January 18, 2011
at 05:55 PM

The goLite sounds awesome -- never heard of so I'll have to ck it out! What you are doing is basically 'eating' an ancestral diet -- heart meat contains coQ10, carnitine, o-3 and minerals! I've a lot of paleo 'fails' at paleohacks and I suspect it is the vast shift in the gut from different foods and also the inclusion of dairy if it was not present in the diet earlier... We've healed our gut (90-95%) and actually my family tolerates some degree of raw sheep and goat cheeses now. Robb Wolf has talked about this as well and uses only raw goat/sheep dairy.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 11:17 PM

Thanks for your response! I will definitely give them a try. I had a ton of dairy over break. I have already reduced that to just a small amount, and what I do have is grass-fed. I've also recently started using a goLite for "morning sun".

1
Medium avatar

(3259)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:03 PM

Your situation (BP, height, weight, all) sounds very similar to mine pre-paleo. I cut the dairy and went lower carb and it helped a lot - something to do with the water-retaining qualities of carbs. The only thing that jacks it now is alcohol even in moderation. Do you drink at all? If so (even a little) cut it for a month a see what happens to your BP.

Medium avatar

(3259)

on January 18, 2011
at 01:53 PM

Hey sherpamelissa. I feel like I do have it under control. I check it frequently and it's always within what I feel is an acceptable range - 118 to 124 over 80 to 88. It used to be 160+ over 110 so I'd say something's working. COQ10 (100mg twice a day), fish oil, and low carb (<40g) all play a role, I believe. I do drink but only occasionally and reasonably (couple glasses of wine on the weekend or 2-3 vodka-sodas at a party (sadly...few and far between). I used to be a 2-beer-a-day kind of guy. When I do drink now, my heart races and the beat becomes very strong (and scary).

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:02 PM

^ hahaha, GLASS of red wine, not class.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Thanks for the info! My blood pressure has been in about the same place as yours. I'd like the bottom number a little lower, but I'll take it. I'm mainly worried about water retention now. I've got my carbs around 75 right now, maybe I'll drop them lower. I've been playing with the idea of a class of red wine a night, but it does seem to mess with the water retention and I hate seeing the scale go up.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 09:15 PM

I haven't had any alcohol for months, although before paleo I drank once or twice per month. My BP was lower after I'd had a few, actually - although I know that drinking can worsen it longterm.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 04:06 AM

We seem to have a lot in common, Riveted! This is my situation exactly, just dropped blood pressure meds, but still have water retention issues. Do you have yours entirely under control with diet now? Do you drink alcohol at all?

Medium avatar

(3259)

on January 19, 2011
at 01:36 PM

I think there are definitely cardio-protective benefits of a glass a day, as well as it's overall relaxation / stress relief mechanism, but it tends to interfere with sleep and probably leaning out, which are priorities for me right now. Two or three a week seem to have no effect, but I think 7 to 14 do.

1
Medium avatar

on January 14, 2011
at 11:40 PM

I was under the impression that carbs or insulin cause a reuptake of sodium ions by the kidneys which gives the same result as a huge salt intake. If you add an actual huge salt intake to this, you get dangerous hypertension. Were I you, I would try to cut carbs back further.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:07 AM

This is an interesting point. I had noticed a possible connection between excessive dairy/coffee consumption and higher BP, and dairy is insulinogenic. On the other hand, whey protein has been found to reduce blood pressure, so I don't know which way to go on this.

1
A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

on January 14, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Are you eating sufficient potassium? Dial in your diet into Fitday and it will tell you if you are getting enough. You can't really supplement but rich sources include tomato paste and coconut water.

Also beetroot juice has scientifically proven anti-hypertensive properties.

1
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:35 PM

A low carb diet can lower high blood pressure. What's your carb intake like?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Yeah, I would try cutting carbs down or changing the type of carb used.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:47 PM

It was pretty standard when I first started getting BP under control, maybe 50%? It was really low when I started paleo, 5-10%, but now I'm guessing it's maybe an erratic 5-50%, averaging out to 20%

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 10:46 PM

It was pretty standard when I first started getting BP under control, maybe 50%? It was really low when I started paleo, 5-10%, but now I'm guessing it's maybe an erratic 5-50%, averaging out to 25%.

0
3a022ca837d33625fb9f8666f258260e

on December 09, 2013
at 11:15 AM

Spam post removed [edit by Matt 11]

0
52cae90a114ca8f0404948e2b7ccb7ef

(1595)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:19 PM

Give it time on paleo and consider resistance training:

http://www.newswise.com/articles/resistance-training-benefits-cardiovascular-health

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:40 PM

Thank you; however, I have been doing weight lifting three times per week for four months.

-3
Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

on January 14, 2011
at 11:10 PM

The first measure against hypertension is being extra-careful with sodium: no added salt at all (not even the marine salt) no salt-containing products as ham or mayonnaise. If you try this strictly, you will really improve!

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on January 15, 2011
at 01:23 AM

The Cochrane collaboration does meta-analyses for health science. http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003656.html links to their review showing "Intensive interventions, unsuited to primary care or population prevention programmes, provide only minimal reductions in blood pressure during long-term trials... A low sodium diet may help in maintenance of lower blood pressure following withdrawal of antihypertensives."

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:59 PM

I think the connection is actually between sodium and water retention. I know the first thing they put me on to control my blood pressure was actually a water pill. Almost everyone I know on BP meds take both a diuretic and a blood pressure pill.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:17 PM

-1 No credible link between salt and hypertension.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Link? That hasn't been shown in any paper I'm aware of.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:40 AM

This is one serious study that shows a clear connection between sodium and BP, there are many others, just google "hypertension +sodium" http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/36/5/890

52cae90a114ca8f0404948e2b7ccb7ef

(1595)

on January 14, 2011
at 11:18 PM

a small portion of people are salt sensitive. like with anything, it varies from person to person.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 18, 2011
at 12:57 PM

@sherpamelissa, those diuretic pills reduce BP in the short-term but deplete potassium even further in the long run, making things worse.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 18, 2011
at 02:04 PM

Hey Sarah Ann, I just had blood tests and my potassium numbers looked good, so did sodium. I absolutely want to get off the diuretics though. The problem is that without them I can gain 10/12 lbs of water in a day or two. I'll got to figure out how to retrain my body. I'm working on it! I just got off the BP meds last month.

13db020c06c22c2f8b129034ddc013e4

(340)

on May 17, 2011
at 10:11 PM

I think most here know the mainstream solutions. If you are recommending the mainstream version, it's good to cite from a paleo-aware source.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on February 07, 2012
at 02:46 AM

It doesn't hurt to recommend this. Salt is fine for many but sets some people off. Just because it's the mainstream opinion doesn't mean that it's wrong, or wrong for everyone.

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