hi guys, I've cured my acne I think. I think it was a combination of anti-candida pills (Candex), paleo eating, probiotics, and finally, tap water.
Yes, everyone in my family who I have told that tap water makes me break out thinks I am absolutely bananas. But I took fluoride pills, have white spots on my teeth, used to swallow toothpaste a lot until recently (i.e. not rinse my mouth), and as a kid was prescribed fluorine containing antibiotics, took Cipro 4 years ago and, I'm not kidding, drank the 8 HUGE glasses of water per day per conventional wisdom. I think the water where I live now has much more fluorine (and a worse taste) than where I used to live and aggravated this problem.
As a result of my unique history, when I drink tap water in the area I live in, I get huge painful cysts in my chin. Also when I eat non-breast chicken meat, even a tiny sip of beer, and I've read that grapes, wine in the US are sprayed with heavily fluoridated pesticides. There are other foods I've learned to avoid, like sardines packed in water and chicken broths. I take lots of beef broth to help me detoxify.
Further, Magnesium and iodine and boron supposedly help detoxify fluorine http://www.ehow.com/way_5687307_calcium-flouride-detox.html
but they compete for absorption as well (I can't find the link for this but I read it yesterday)
I've been taking Magnesium but not boron, and instead eating prunes and just started supplementing with iodine, about a month ago, 225 mg. (to explain the prunes) www.celluliteinvestigation.com/2011/10/fluoride-detox-prunes.html
No new acne once I've figured this out. I've had no "detox" symptoms from the Mag or Iodine or prunes...I'm trying boron pills next.
So, here is my question : (I changed this one)
4) does anyone supplement with Boron and have they noticed any breakouts because they had a lot of fluorine (or perhaps bromine from years of eating baked goods with brominated flour, for example?) that got detoxed? For example, I get headaches/feel ill with a boron supplement.
Sorry this is such a crazy question. I'm sure there will be a lot of other people out there who think I'm bananas, and I never would have thought to question tap water, of all things.
asked byelf27 (1601)
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on November 26, 2012
at 03:05 AM
Detoxing for me always took two to six weeks. And then I went primal! It used to be that if my iodine-containing trigger foods snuck into my diet I'd break out for a short interval and make a quick return to clear skin. Not so anymore. I decided to eat a high-iodine sushi dinner a few months after my primal transition and was shocked at how long it took to detox. I broke out for over four months! To reiterate, my detox time went from four weeks to four months after switching to paleo! Yikes. I guess eating clean has somehow made me more sensitive to things my body does not like. Be prepared for this if you decide to cheat or test the boundaries of your body's tolerance to your trigger-substances.
Also, please don't let commenters like Matt get you down. I spent years getting laughed out of doctors offices when I asked them about dietary or other lifestyle cures for my acne. Kudos to you for striking out, doing your own research, and coming up with a solution that may not yet be accepted by mainstream know-it-alls such as Matt.
on December 06, 2012
at 03:50 PM
@elf27, when a peer reviewed article uses terms like: "may represent"; "may cause"; "two patients"; "may help; etc. That means they failed to get statistically significant results and are just trying to get a paper out.
Also, Fluoroderma is not a medical condition, it is a theory that has not held up to scientific scrutiny. There is evidence of fluoride allergies that can result in atopic dermatitis, but not at the exposure levels one would get via tap water or brushing their teeth. The Physician's Desk Reference you made is inappropriate because it is specifically referencing patients with an autoimmune condition which causes hypersensitivity to fluoride AND are taking high dose fluoride pills, not the general public. To date there is zero scientifically valid evidence to suggest that anyone has presented with an allergic reaction to fluoride found in drinking water or tooth paste.
That being said, I'm all for going whole hog with N=1. If it works for you, keep it up. Unfortunately the research doesn't back up your claim.
on January 16, 2013
at 04:43 AM
I've been taking boron supplements for a little over a month now. Have also been taking iodine for a while (3 yrs.).
Within the first day or two of starting boron (Nature's Way Boron Amino Acid Chelate), I felt a dramatic difference in my health. I believe I flushed fluoride out of my body. I've read that boron will do this more effectively than iodine. I tried different boron dosages ranging from 3 mg - 9 mg/day.
FYI, I also started taking a Cal/Mag/D supplement (Nature's Way Alive Cal/Mag/D (food-based calcium)) about the same time that contained boron & strontium in it. Overall, the combination of supplements improved my strength and my bones feel heavier.
Also, my iodine absorption went through the roof during this time. It was so dramatic, my iron levels dropped through the floor and I got severely fatigued (iodine depletes iron). So I lowered my iodine (Iodoral) dosage from 6 mg to 1.5 mg/day and take some iron supplements temporarily to fix that.
After about 2 weeks on boron, I got real irritable with headaches, etc. I lowered my boron to no more than 3 mg/day and take plenty of magnesium now. Boron will apparently deplete your magnesium levels.
Can't imagine fluorine/floride is doing anything good inside us. It may be an essential element even, but not at the levels we are all exposed to in tap water. I've had acne for over 30 years? Food allergies, iron deficiency, you name it, I've got it. Boron stops acne in its tracks for me. I can even eat sweets and desserts again.
Overall, what I think is actually happening is that boron is maybe, finally a bona fide candida stopper. People are actually drinking Borax cleaner to try to fix their candida infections and rheumatoid arthritis. But Borax is about 10% boron, I bet these people can accomplish the same thing on just boron.
FYI, if you take iodine, you need to take the RDA of sea salt every day to flush bromide out of the kidneys. This is a must.
But boron is exciting.
on December 09, 2012
at 10:22 PM
I don't know anything about this chemistry... but I'm a little confused why you'd add Boron if you're doing so well without it?
I've done the Master Cleanse to detoxify. Again, I can't speak on the chemistry... but the experience was rewarding in multiple ways. I have since studied the criticisms, however, and probably won't do it again.
Paradoxically, I'm glad I did it and would suggest it to anyone to try it a few times. It really seems to cause trouble when people extend it for too long or repeat too many times.
on December 09, 2012
at 07:31 PM
Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine and Iodine are all Halogens and they are all on the same column of the periodic table. Halogens like chlorine bromine and fluorine will bind to the same places that iodine binds to BECAUSE they are all halogens. The heavier halogens tend to displace the lighter halogens and iodine being the heaviest will tend to displace the lighter halogens. This is why adding sufficient iodine in a 24 hour loading test will result in high urine concentrations of bromine and Fluorine especially (since most people get lots of fluorine from toothpaste and bromine from flame retardants on seats, comforters etc). I'm glad that iodine seemed to help you with your acne, if you get headaches from taking boron, I would consider taking less Boron.
on December 06, 2012
at 03:54 PM
I know it sounds crazy. believe me, I have done a ton of research on it.
Many foods have fluorides naturally:
avocado crab salmon anchovies sardines
Melissa McEwen has an interesting hypothesis (of HuntGatherLove) that we evolved to live near the sea, because so much seafood has vitamins and minerals that are vital for us, like iodine, selenium, copper, chromium, zinc. much more and more easily obtainable versus other sources of food.
Check out Weston A. Price for the difference in teeth with a western versus traditional diet.
Finally, for your information: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/sulfuryl-fluoride/questions.html
I'm surprised if more people have not experienced this fluoride issue after going paleo/primal because lettuce and many other types of greens - turnip, kale, collards, etc. have some of the highest levels of pesticides of sulfuryl fluoride on them. I learned this the hard way, and now I really understand why one should buy local (not organic - they still spray pesticides and herbicides, just not at the very end when the product is finally released to market in many cases).
on December 06, 2012
at 03:47 PM
•the original source for the claim that toothpaste causes acne is a letter to the editor of the Journal, Dermatology, by Dr. Milton A. Saunders in 1975 entitled "Fluoride Toothpaste: A Cause of Acne-like Eruptions," summarized here:
•Saunders was treating ~60 patients between 20-40 years of age with acne around chin area that were resistant to treatment and swore that such acne was not from hand/mouth area contact or wearing cosmetics •Saunders wondered what else might be the cause and thought of fluoride-containing toothpaste •He asked the patients to switch to non-fluoride-containing toothpaste and 50% cleared up; the remaining 50% remained as they were, with acne •The asked the patients still afflicted to switch to baking soda and Scope mouthwash, and almost all of these patients cleared of almost all of their acne •Some patients who had achieved an improved state switched back to fluoride toothpaste and their acne returned
There was a response, from Dr. Ervine Epstein to Dr. Saunders which appeared in the same journal a year later (1976). It stated:
I read the letter from Dr Saunders on fluoride toothpastes as a cause of acne-like eruptions. His observations are interesting and possibly important. However, I would like to offer the following comments: (1) The ingestion of fluorides neither precipitates nor aggravates acne. (2) Fluorides are much more closely related chemically to chlorides than to iodides or bromides, although all are halogens. There is no evidence that chlorides per se cause or irritate acne. (3) Dr Saunders has not established that nonfluoride toothpastes do not cause acneiform eruptions. (4) A survey among dentists indicates that, due to the efforts of Madison Avenue, 60% to 80% of all people, and especially women, use fluoride toothpastes. Therefore, 46 out of 46 cases is less impressive. (5) It has not been established that the fluorides in the toothpaste are the actual cause of the eruption described by Dr Saunders.
Dr. Saunders then published a response the same year in Dermatology, stating:
First of all, the letter to the editor was not intended in any way to represent a well-controlled scientific study of statistical significance; rather, it was an observation that I hope will encourage others to investigate the subject more thoroughly in a double-blind, large-scale study, so that it may be established whether these observations are valid. In reply to the numbered comments in Dr Epstein's letter, I submit the following: Dr Epstein stated that the ingestion of fluorides neither precipitates nor aggravates acne. No implication that the ingestion of the fluorides had anything to do with the acne-like eruptions involved was made or intended in my letter. Rather, I suggested the possibility that salivary nocturnal drainage may carry fluorides...
Here is my point: whether you call it perioral dermatitis, whether it's the salivary nocturnal drainages carrying fluoride IT IS STILL AN ACNE-LIKE skin condition
I'm not sure what further proof is needed to Dr. Epstein to prove that toothpaste was clearly the cause.
I mean, yeah, it was not a double-blind randomized study, but it is documented from a clinician. Finally, Dr. Epstein is not 100% correct, because there is an association with aromatic chlorinated compounds and acne.
Guess what substance uses aromatic chlorinated compounds? Herbicides.
Wikipedia says that 95% of herbicides up end up destinations other than the target. I don't know about that, but I don't think it's unimaginable that herbicides could end up in our food supply. Chloracne, wikipedia states, is caused by cumulative exposure.
Is it so unimaginable to think that it's the same with fluoride?
Sulfuryl fluoride also became a more widely used pesticide after methyl bromide was phased out for toxicity!
Scroll down to page 4 in the link to see whether or not sulfuryl fluoride can accumulate....the answer is, it gets broken down to fluorides at sublethal doses.
Does sulfuryl fluoride accumulate?
Animals •• Data regarding the biochemical effects of sulfuryl fluoride in mammals is limited; however, when researchers exposed termites to sub-lethal concentrations of sulfuryl fluoride, inorganic sulfate was excreted (an indication that sulfuryl fluoride was broken down inside the insect’s body to fluoride and sulfate).8,9
Researchers exposed rats and rabbits to sulfuryl fluoride six hours a day, five days a week for 13-weeks at concentrations of 0, 100, or 300 ppm and 0, 100, or 337 ppm, respectively. Serum fluoride levels in rats exposed to the highest concentration were slightly elevated. Rabbits, however, exhibited a significant increase in serum fluoride levels at all test concentrations compared to control values. Serum fluoride levels were also significantly increased in another study when scientists exposed rats to concentrations of 4,000 or 10,000 ppm until the time of incapacitation. Although additional factors may be involved, *the toxicity of sulfuryl fluoride is due, in part, to the increased fluoride levels. For example, fluoride inhibits metabolism and decreases calcium, magnesium, and serum cholinesterase levels in mammals: Cholinesterase is an enzyme needed for the proper functioning of the nervous system.*17,18
Now, what are the levels of sulfuryl fluoride allowed on say, lettuce? would you believe 180 ppm?
would you believe that nuts are also sprayed with sulfuryl fluoride? meat? as well as fluoride being present in significant amounts in chicken, especially the bones and fat? wine grapes
combined with the fact that MANY MANY people use FAR more toothpaste than necessary. One tube of toothpaste should last you quite a while, DO NOT use the huge stripe that they show in commercials.
on December 06, 2012
at 03:26 PM
It feels weird to provide an answer to my own question, but I couldn't fit all of this in a comment to Matt...
FLUORIDATED Toothpaste can cause papulonodular eruptions or perioral dermatitis, both which resemble acne - that is, both papulonodular eruptions and perioral dermatitis can cause small, red papules and pustules to form on the surface of the skin.
To be honest, I am not sure the difference between a papulonodular eruption versus dermatits. They all look like zits to me when you google pictures.
Anyway, I provide links for the above statements below.
Papulonodular reactions or dermatitis from fluoride are RARE, but can occur, and resemble acne. thus FLUORIDATED toothpaste can cause skin reactions.
Here is a link to what I hope can be viewed as a medically accepted website. It discusses fluoroderma, which can occur from fluoride containing preparations - http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1090031-overview
I have pulled from the site link I provided above, which discusses halogenoderma:
"The terms iododerma, bromoderma, and fluoroderma are used to describe skin lesions that occur after an individual consumes iodide-, bromide-, or fluoride-containing preparations."
"Halogenoderma may represent a delayed hypersensitivity allergic response"
"Fluoride gel preparations for the prophylaxis of postirradiation dental caries may cause fluorodermas when they are applied to the teeth."
and Reference  is : 5.Blasik LG, Spencer SK. Fluoroderma. Arch Dermatol. Nov 1979;115(11):1334-5.
This is a different reference than the ones provided above. Here is the abstract of the article from Blasik, et. al:
"Papulonodular eruptions from certain bromide and iodide preparations are widely recognized entities, but skin lesions following fluoride ingestion are rare. Modern prophylaxis for postirradiation dental caries includes the use of fluoride gel preparations applied to the teeth. In two patients receiving such therapy a papulonodular eruption developed, similar to the recognized halogenodermas. These cases may help to increase awareness of this entity."
I consider toothpaste to be a fluoride containing preparation when applied to the skin or when it leaves residues on the skin or even in the saliva.
I admit this point could be up for debate, to consider FLUORIDATED toothpaste a fluoride preparation. However, every person is different and I do not think it insane to consider that a small amount of fluoride in toothpaste could cause acne in some and nothing at all in others. Logically, like any allergic substance - e.g. the people who can't even have peanuts in their schools or planes versus the ones who can test on their skin to see if there is a reaction.
Unfortunately, fluoride is frequently a very controversial substance. Because the CDC calls fluoridation one of the greatest public health accomplishments, it seems that attacking fluoride is tantamount to suggesting one lives in the 18th century without lights and running water. It seems backward, no? And to study and document that a substance which is universally added to water can cause problems for a small minority of the population - especially something insignificant like acne - seems unimportant in light of all the teeth saved by fluoridation. However, because I am in that minority, I care.
(On the other hand, I wouldn't call acne insignificant. To those who have had it, myself included. I think it can be traumatizing, truly depressive and terrible. I don't minimize cavities or acne's pain, but I guess it is up to the government until citizens react....)
So to conclude, perhaps some might react at lower doses and some might react at higher doses, like any allergy. The dose makes the poison.
Universally, probably, no toothpaste will not cause acne, just like 1 beer cannot universally make people drunk, or universally people will have different reactions to gluten or dairy.
Nevertheless, fluoroderma is a documented medical condition. In a very small minority of cases, it could be possible that fluoridated toothpaste causes acne. The medical literature has not studied this issue so there is no proof for this statement, so that fluoridated toothpaste can cause acne is just an extension of logical thinking.
It is absolutely possible and documented in medical literature that fluoride can cause acne.
But the terminology acne versus dermatitis versus papulonodular eruptions is very confusing. I apologize if my logic is not easily followed and thank you for your participation in improving my previously poorly worded and anecdotal answer. Improvements are welcome!
A final note: I cannot validate this 100%, I have not actually read this book - actually in my hand, but this is also a nice resource documenting skin reactions to fluoride:
PHYSICIANS' DESK REFERENCE - Allergy/Hypersensitivity to Fluoride:
"In hypersensitive individuals, fluorides occasionally cause skin eruptions such as atopic dermatitis, eczema or urticaria. Gastric distress, headache and weakness have also been reported. These hypersensitivity reactions usually disappear promptly after discontinuation of the fluoride. In rare cases, a delay in the eruption of teeth has been reported."
•PHYSICIANS' DESK REFERENCE, 1994, 48th Edition, p. 2335-6.
on November 20, 2012
at 09:29 AM
**That's a great set of questions, elf27. I like musclesglasses response. It's impressive what you've discovered for yourself.
Fluoride in any quantity is a toxin. Naturally-occurring like it is in european water supplies (the bottled-water, mineral-water trend started here) or added artificially to north american, england/wales/ireland, and australian and other tap water. Buy it at the feed store for killing rats: it's odorless and tasteless.
elf27 edit: Hi manspirit - see my "answer" below. I don't know if this can be asserted, as fluoride is in avocadoes, shellfish, salmon's soft bones, etc. I more tend to believe, like Weston A. Price, that diet is responsible for teeth... However, he calls for calcium, Mg, and K2, not fluoride, to fix teeth.
The fluoride source in tap water usually is hydrofluorosilicic acid. In english, it's the direct waste product from the smoke scrubber stacks of the fertilizer-from-ore and aluminium smelter industries. It contains a high level of fluoride, but also heavy metals, etc.
**elf27 edit: the best discussion I've found on the subject of the fluoride added to the water versus natural fluoride: thepaleohygienist.com/2012/08/30/fluoride-facts-controversy-science**
The chlorine gas used in the tap water, usually in conjunction with 'fluoridation', is toxic. And when combining with the organics in the water, is reported to turn into chloroform. So drinking chloroform might also be your challenge. You are unlikely to get such a strong, immediate reaction from fluoride.
*elf27 edit: I'd have to check the equilibrium and K-values for this reaction to occur, but I'm not sure this happens, or the extent of the reaction in any case. Do you have a source for this?*
Bathing or showering in said water is also toxic. Free fluorine, like iodine, absorbs directly through the skin.
elf27 edit: I've repeatedly tried to find a source that fluoride from showers absorbs directly through skin but i've not been able to find one. do you have one?? it would be great if you did!
The other things in the water help to dry out the skin further, and the detergents used by most (SLS) under the name of 'soap', are harsh, even when labelled 'mild', and they strip the natural oil layer on the skin which might provide some protection. They also damage the hair, scalp, what more do you want?
Mag can bind with zinc, reportedly. Consider getting a source of pure zinc gluconate. We have found (my private research with others) that many skin eruptions conjunct a zinc deficiency. This includes so-called 'herpes', as some readers may be well-aware.
on November 14, 2012
at 03:30 PM
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on November 14, 2012
at 02:58 PM
Too much salty fried food will make acne worse, so our parents told us. Was it the iodized salt or chlorine in salt? Was it also the rancid, trans and hydrogenated deep fryer oils? Or the AGEs from accelerated browning reaction of fats and oils with sugars? Could have been many contributors! Halogens are all associated with acne. (BTW, apparently even supposedly inert teflon type coatings will release some fluorine when heated and/or scratched.) The dilemma is that iodine is required and healthy in some amount and will help to flush out the other halogens you don't want but too much iodine will itself aggravate acne, not simply by releasing other halogens.
Somewhere in a semi-technical document I saw a mention of the acne-Iodine connection and a supplement or food that would help suppress the process, but can't find it at the moment.