26

votes

The four horsemen of the apocalypse: Gluten, Vegetable oil, Sugar, and [who am I?]

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 09, 2011 at 1:01 AM

Q: What's potentially the most common answer on paleohacks, to any given question?

A: "I wouldn't worry about it...just avoid gluten, excess omega-6, and excess sugar/fructose and you'll be fine."

One problem: Horsemen come in groups of four. Only three have been made famous as of yet...is there a fourth out there? Consider these candidates, and tell me which one does the most damage to the health of Americans. Or bring up a dark horse. Or is the fourth horseman not a nutrient, but something else toxic? Too much internet, mayhaps?

Please briefly explain why your horseman is so so bad for health, happiness, and/or longevity.

  • Excessive food reward
  • Subclinical micronutrient deficiencies
  • Sterile environment
  • Lack of sunshine/air
  • Lectins
  • Nighshades
  • Casein
  • Pesticides
  • Alcohol
  • Stress
  • Trans fat
  • Preservatives
  • AGEs
  • Lack of sleep

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 08, 2011
at 03:18 PM

loilo has his smog pic just below this comment. I feel the Mercury is a muchmore toxic than the pollution.Why not just suck on the tail pipe!

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 08, 2011
at 11:02 AM

Really...you piss down on the shoulders of giants...you must be somemmmmmmbody.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on December 08, 2011
at 02:39 AM

Stab wounds. I have seen so many people die from those, it's ridiculous. Avoiding stab wounds is way more important than stress or vitamins.

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:23 PM

My sister who is recovering from colon cancer has a smart phone that is like a bad lover (Consuela come dance with me my regiment leaves at dawn) She plays games during conversations says she can't knit anymore (chemo nueropathy) and what's the difference? Whew, Boy, don't get me started. I think those machines are like Crack! I'm letting up a bit on PH to study some Spanish, but glad I didn't miss this thread.

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:20 PM

So glad for this question and your answer, Kamal, I was in Northern Minnesota when it was asked at a family reunion where 7 children 11 and under played their hearts out riding bikes, scooters, trikes, swam, but then would sit in front of the computer as long as their mothers let them. to be continued

361e96d70d6d3b91d63f6ad975e60ab6

(840)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:12 AM

Are they not just behind it all?

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on August 13, 2011
at 08:45 PM

Poly-andry;gamy;amory so limiting! http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/the-varieties-of-intimate-relationship/

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I'm still waiting for Andy's new avatar. Maybe the mountains in Colorado? Another character from Amelie? The possibilities are endless.

2bdc990a200584a385650cf68475f095

on August 09, 2011
at 09:44 PM

I think this is too general. Citric acid can't really compare to trans fat and even between the preservatives you have a range of different substances with different effects.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:52 PM

When I see chemical names I think of GNC. I also think of what's sitting in the tank farm next to my office. Neither of which connects with food.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:37 PM

KGH- A few years ago I had an internship at Herbert Benson's "Mind Body Medical Institute", where they taught the Relaxation Response to patients. It worked incredibly well, turning attention to appropriate stress response instead of putting all your marbles into stress-reduction and rules for everything. But oh boy did insurance resist paying, even if it led to weight loss, lower blood pressure, less depression, etc etc.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:32 PM

*this* is *so* cool

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:29 PM

Pale-O-Girl - would you mind sending me an email (on my profile)? I have an offline question to ask... nothing weird or creepy :-)

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:28 PM

Pale-O-Girl - would you mind sending me an email (on my profile)? I have an offline question to ask...

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:24 PM

PS...did you see the picture of you and fellow paleohackers with Mark Sisson in that other thread?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:23 PM

Ah, good one! Cheaper, faster, bigger has gone slightly out control the past couple centuries.

8ea84667a7f11ac3967f2ecfcad28ad8

(641)

on August 09, 2011
at 05:03 PM

This reminds me of one of Andrew Weil's books from the '90s (can't remember the title). In it, he goes on at length about how humans have a tendency to take something good in nature and turn it into a white powder. IOW, we take a chemical that might be beneficial in the low concentrations found in nature (eg. cocoa leaves), and refine and concentrate it to the point of toxicity.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 04:58 PM

What makes this an interesting horseman candidate for me is all that's involved with "professionally designed" industrial foods.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on August 09, 2011
at 04:17 PM

very insightful. Food reward or susceptibility to it just a subset of a larger problem that links the general culture with our neurochemistry. It is not "stress" that is a problem, it is our culturally sanctioned learned responses to it. Do fish know what water is?

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on August 09, 2011
at 04:09 PM

IF we are talking about causes - plural - of diseases of civilization I think the entire cultural milieu of food - how it is mixed, cooked, prepared, combined and processed and even literally the mental space it occupies is likely to be an independent contributor to DOC via excess caloric intake and to obesity via setpoint dysregulation. The concept makes quite a lot of sense to me and is not at all incompatible with DOC also being caused by the unique properties of wheat, excess (not just a few pieces of fruit) fructose and excess linoleic acid. There may be other significant NADs as well.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:41 PM

Mineral water. Presumably that was what our ancestors were drinking. I happen to lOve gerolsteiner.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:22 PM

*an asterisk before and after* will do the trick.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:59 PM

how do you do italics??

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:59 PM

*wants to be like aravind when he grows up*

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:58 PM

i got into the NWA(wtf is a WCW, anyway?) when it was rick, arn, tully and lex. it was sweet when barry windham betrayed lex and joined too.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:47 PM

ooohhh I totally agree with you familygrok! All the baloney they put into foods is really the bad s**t additives, stabilizers, colourings and preservatives

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:34 PM

Yeah, pretty much everything that's really important has been covered by Stephan or KGH.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:13 PM

That's why Meredith is my gal, along with Danielle, Shari, G2C...man this polygamy thing is a lot of work.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:55 PM

stephan wrote about this as one of his last posts on food reward. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/07/simple-food-thoughts-on-practicality.html

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:53 PM

i was under the understanding that it's pretty hard to get magnesium from whole foods...

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:52 PM

i'd go with lagers

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:46 PM

Dear Meredith, You rock. Sincerely, Allie

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:44 PM

...can't handle ... all the ellipses ....

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:10 PM

Beautifully written, Kamal. I was just saying that I have been having a "real life" lately instead of an online life and sadly, I miss my online stuff and feel really disconnected from things when I can't check PH or my other online hangouts.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:08 PM

I grew up in the Lex era, so I'll go with him. But he doesn't fit at all. How about those Steiner Brothers though?

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:07 PM

Although I do appreciate a Comment On a downvote, so thanks.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:06 PM

What Stabatron said. I guess it shows the kind of food culture we have when somebody says to get nutrients and the first thing that comes to mind is GNC.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 12:58 PM

+1.......... :-) I think we have essentially written the same answer, albeit yours is much more eloquent than mine. Obviously we discussed this too at AHS in one of our more cerebral moments so I completely agree.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Best incarnation of the four horseman: does it include olie, lex or tully?

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on August 09, 2011
at 12:15 PM

i love this answer, really. has to be my favorite. im becoming more guilty of this stuff every day and feeling constantly connected to the information hive mind more and more hours out of the day, while struggling to get back to my yoga/meditation/hiking practice and feeling more and more like im being swept away in a fast moving river. and we are a family of luddites. my friend has a TV in her three year olds bedroom. this shit is out of control.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:57 AM

I agree. There is too much noise around us today. I often think about how different people would be if they just sat in the evening after dinner and read a book, sat on the porch, told stories to young kids, sewed something. Just no TV, no computers, none of that stuff. Quiet time. You could consciously choose to meditate etc too of course but I just mean more time spent not doing anything and perhaps semi-ruminating on things, lightly chatting, staring at stuff, playing with tools/hands, etc.

B14dc4aa1ddefbec3bc09550428ee493

(3909)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:38 AM

If you are eating real food they just aren't an issue anymore. I think that's why nobody is talking about them here.

2f931662684a7747be36255c8b486228

(1049)

on August 09, 2011
at 10:22 AM

I fully agree. We are so overstimulated that plain food bores us. 3D movies make gazing at a flat forest dull, and feeling our lungs inflate with fresh air is non-existent. Camping? Kids want water slides and rides that didn't even exist when I was a tot. Yet, on the other hand, if I unplug my computer, will I get bored and...and...Eat? Our worse, go out and kill from frustration' Maybe; it is in our genes. Kill the beast..today's beast is a failed society. And we now go on vacation with fb instead of talking to strangers at the pool.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:33 AM

I believe that food reward theorists would do well to move away from terms like "highly palatable" which does NOT translate well, to what I believe it actually IS and people might be able to begin to hear: hyperstimulating. The stress that is the issue in the culture of modern life, which is only worseing, is HYPERSTIMULATION - yes, COCAINE in a multitude of forms. The follwoing has many excellent scientific talks re: addiction as it relates to this subject and food, specifically. Industrial food in particular, is yeat another hyperstimulation.http://foodaddictionsummit.org/agenda.htm

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:29 AM

+1 - You hit the jackpot, Kamal. You've written a bit of a different version of what I would have written had I had the time and energy this evening. The answer to the question is very difficult because yes, it is FOOD REWARD. But the underpinnings of that are huge and cannot, in IMO be divorced from STRESS in all its many, many and varied "disguises" in our culture. The problem is that people cannot hear this. Stress? That's a trite bunch of crap. Well, it's huge. You've talked about a whole area of it and there are others. What "binds" all of this is the word: hyperstimulating. (continued)

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 05:06 AM

mmmmmmmmmmmm. dopamine.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:04 AM

http://foodaddictionsummit.org/agenda.htm Lots to feed your mind here.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:33 AM

@BeingVenus yes same here for LoS - I play WoW - we are doing Firelands ;)

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:20 AM

The nature boy... "Whoooooo"

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:10 AM

yeah, i just realized that... not exactly a helpful heuristic. i'm about to reneg it.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:09 AM

now that's like the whole carriage, too

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:04 AM

it was a joke. KGH is a fan of food reward hypothesis.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:01 AM

as long as you don't whinney

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:51 AM

Just good timing on my part, lol!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:33 AM

They fit the bill as the villain and I can't dig that. I mean I can dig it with my spoon but I can't dig what's going on inside me when I do. I agree, sugary cereal is undeniable, it's just crap in a box.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:09 AM

I think because it's just by default understood. Even by CW

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:08 AM

Or nerdiness... Damn autocorrect. Always telling everyone how I really feel. ToT

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:07 AM

When I see LoS I think "line of sight." as in... I'm doing a line of sight tank pull in this MMORPG dungeon. Hahahaha. My neediness knows no bounds.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:04 AM

Who's plugging anything except for eating a nutritionally complete diet? There isn't even mention of supplements, that stuff comes from food.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:02 AM

Did you mean Honey Smacks fit the bill, and you dig 'em? Because that shows how deeply ingrained the message is. I know more cereal jingles than American senators.

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 09, 2011
at 03:01 AM

Food reward as SG defines it ("the psychology term") is conceptually nonsense from the get-go and, unlike your first three horsemen, "palatability" is not practically sellable to most anyone as something that can generally be (or should be) voluntarily eliminated or avoided. Might be of interest in treatment of existing obesity. Might be interesting for exploring the poorly-understood neurophysiological mechanisms related to appetite and eating behaviors. But definitely not a horseman candidate imo.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:00 AM

Not about re-enactment? THEN WHY DID I TRADE MY CLOTHES FOR A SPEAR?! This is a big letdown.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:49 AM

I can dig it. That was actually a rhetorical question, it's a relationship between stuff that causes leptin resistance and stuff that is cracktastic. Sugar smacks fit the bill http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19091915 (in rats, but it's a mammalian constant).

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:43 AM

The dysregulation of food reward was originally caused by General Mills. Sugary cereal made me a monster.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:42 AM

@Stabby - Then I'm a hunter-gatherer. Jeez, have you learned nothing from KGH??? It's not about re-enactment, it's about getting as much tail as possible. You need to stop reading the biochem and hang out with Kamal and me at the bar. Then you'll understand.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:38 AM

I thought that there were some societies that gathered harems, but they were actually communities of women who "let" a man in to provide the needed seed. I could be confusing this with Knot's Landing though.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:34 AM

Technically polygamy is not paleo. Hunter-gatherers are mostly pair-bonders, they just cheat a lot. You're doing paleo wrong, repent!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:29 AM

That's a deep question! I'm leaning towards causation. Those beautiful, glamorous X-Men have no obese members. I'd be mad at them too. The crazy-looking people (Green Goblin, Two Face, Newt Gingrich) always end up being villains.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:28 AM

But what causes the dysregulation of food reward? Occam's razor, our savior.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:26 AM

Is it causation or merely correlation that the blob was a villain, K?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:20 AM

Downvote for plugging GNC.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

I do understand your exercise vote. Americans could learn a little something from Nightcrawler, Beast, and Wolverine. Varied intense exercise can make you a superhero.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Etc is not paleo - it is latin - a Latin expression meaning "and other things" or "and so on". Either that or it means ETC (magazine), a leftist Swedish magazine OR Earl Thomas Conley, an American country music singer and composer OR Eric Theodore Cartman, a character on South Park. This all came from Wikipedia so it is true.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Or maybe Gary Taubes.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:17 AM

Digging on the WCW ref but then you pulled out the Apocolypse..good stuff. Lack of movement is my vote btw. Americans are sedentary lazy shits

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:16 AM

You know I'd have to guess that bad spelling is going to kill us way before the first three.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:14 AM

I suppose. But it's polarizing. Just like comics and wrestling. I'ma suplex you for rick rolling me last week.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:02 AM

I'm sorry, I deleted the rationale for having four horsemen. That number is clearly backed up by not only the Bible, but also The Four Horsemen from WCW wrestling in the early 80's (Arn Anderson, Ric Flair, etc) and The Four Horsemen from the old days of Notre Dame football. Apocolypse, popular X-Men villain, also had four horsemen. Have my nerdy and strange distractions made you forget your question yet?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:02 AM

I'm sorry, I deleted the rationale for having four horsemen. That number is clearly backed up by not only the Bible, but also The Four Horsemen from WCW wrestling in the early 80's (Arn Anderson, Ric Flair, etc) and The Four Horsemen from the old days of Notre Dame football. Apocolpyse, popular X-Men villain, also had four horsemen. Have my nerdy and strange distractions made you forget your question yet?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:01 AM

The Loon is the same person that said Stephan was throwing his PhD in everyone's face and that he deserved the disrespect received from Gary Taubes at AHS. Need I say more other than, thanks Loon for clarifying (incorrectly) what KGH meant, since we all know the written word and ability to clearly communicate his thoughts are some of KGH's weaknesses

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Aha, that's where the action's at...http://huntgatherlove.com/content/ancestral-health-symposium-part-1

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:54 AM

The Big Stabowski-- I was looking for more of a historical, European anthro type link, if you've got one handy. Or I guuuuessss I could google.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:54 AM

Thanks M. Just read it

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on August 09, 2011
at 01:53 AM

You took mine. +1

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:50 AM

thanx Loon! Its actually pretty cool. Not like super top of everyones list but hey to each their own :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:50 AM

Aravind - KGH posted comments about this on Melissa's AHS part 1 blogpost (at Hunt Gather Love)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:49 AM

So I'm taking this is emotional/mental stress? Tis good.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:49 AM

Exercise is a powerful tool too. I know you just consider making love to beautiful women 10 times a day to be adequate but most of us decide to do exercise exercise. Do we really have to limit it to 4? What about another number?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:46 AM

Heh. Mindreader.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:45 AM

Thanks stabinator. Glad to see someone else (who happens to be very intelligent) thinking along the same lines.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:44 AM

Which part...oh yeah. All of it!

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Hilarious. Or sad (because true).

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:41 AM

What are you talking about Loon? You can't eat a concept. Or this is a really meta answer and I'm being obtuse.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:40 AM

I heard it from Emily Deans on an interview, but a quick pubmed search demonstrates that if your diet is deficient in B vitamins your brain goes to hell http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16987159 Even the white bread now is better than what they had, due to fortification

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:39 AM

well, I upvoted just because it sounds cool

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:37 AM

no, I think he means avoid the concept.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

I rewarded myself for having fun at AHS by eating a big thing of buttered naan. The mind can make up an infinite number of reasons to seek reward, and food is always there. Good answer.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

I agree with this one and think it will eventually lead to my undoing if I can't figure out how to calm down.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

and the original comment was just a quick blurb, as I dont think before i type anyhow :)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:32 AM

KGH - Does that mean you buy into Food Reward theory now?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:30 AM

Well, basically when parts of the body align, move, and work properly they send afferent (to the brain) signals more dominated by proprioception. When they are misaligned, dysfunctional, or even injured you get more nociceptive feedback. One tends to inhibit the other. Nociception is not always a pain response, but does through various feedback loops stimulate the human "stress" or sympathetic response increasing allostatic load. A lot of studies that show movement to improves physiologic or cognitive markers points to this.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:30 AM

good for you to chime in doc. i will now stop acting like fanboy :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

White bread caused Europe to go insane? This is a perfect time to provide a link, Stabs.

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

This is a good one, too. Bad relationships with food, reward, consolation, celebration... the world revolves around it. Graduating? Let's eat! Getting married? Eat! Funeral? yeah. Feeling tired? Have a snack. Celebrate? With food!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

But I think we should count sunlight and breathing in airborne microbes/possibly eating dirt as nutrition, because they are things we need to get into the body, so that kind of shares the lifestyle territory. Big piece of the puzzle there in the gut flora and stuff we synthesize due to contact with sunlight.

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

This is a good one, too. Bad relationships with food, reward, consolation, celebration... the world revolves around it. G

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

But I think we should count sunlight and breathing in airbourne microbes/possibly eating dirt as nutrition, because they are things we need to get into the body, so that kind of shares the lifestyle territory.

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:27 AM

I'm with Dragonfly. Stress.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Ding ding. I asked Kurt Harris once to make that number 4, And mentioned it yesterday. I tend to think that most of the lifestyle facts actually stem from mal-micronutrition. The introduction of white bread in Europe caused the insane asylums to fill up like nothing else, and fortification of bread mitigated it. Of course we don't want fortified bread we want paleo food.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

oogity boogity, good one

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Now can you add an informative link to those of us rubes who have no idea what those are? (Thanks! :-D)

03281912f1cb9e4e771a8a83af302e3a

(1204)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Definitely a +1. We need to get out of the zoo.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:15 AM

cool answer .

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35 Answers

38
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:06 AM

I'd say excessive STRESS.

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:27 AM

I'm with Dragonfly. Stress.

03281912f1cb9e4e771a8a83af302e3a

(1204)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Definitely a +1. We need to get out of the zoo.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:51 AM

Just good timing on my part, lol!

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on August 09, 2011
at 01:53 AM

You took mine. +1

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:49 AM

So I'm taking this is emotional/mental stress? Tis good.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

I agree with this one and think it will eventually lead to my undoing if I can't figure out how to calm down.

26
66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:17 AM

The fourth horseman is not a nutrient, it's lack of sleep, acronym LoS.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

oogity boogity, good one

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:08 AM

Or nerdiness... Damn autocorrect. Always telling everyone how I really feel. ToT

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:07 AM

When I see LoS I think "line of sight." as in... I'm doing a line of sight tank pull in this MMORPG dungeon. Hahahaha. My neediness knows no bounds.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:33 AM

@BeingVenus yes same here for LoS - I play WoW - we are doing Firelands ;)

23
D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:39 AM

Orthorexia Nervosa. Stop hacking and start living.

  • Why are my dumps so smelly on Paleo?
  • At what macronutrient ratio does my unit look bigger
  • Is polygamy Paleo (yes it is BTW)
  • Etc etc

End Hypocrisy...I'll own it. Really, I'm here on PH just to be a jack ass and to score the chicks. Mission accomplished.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:59 PM

how do you do italics??

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:46 AM

Heh. Mindreader.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:34 AM

Technically polygamy is not paleo. Hunter-gatherers are mostly pair-bonders, they just cheat a lot. You're doing paleo wrong, repent!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:44 AM

Which part...oh yeah. All of it!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:38 AM

I thought that there were some societies that gathered harems, but they were actually communities of women who "let" a man in to provide the needed seed. I could be confusing this with Knot's Landing though.

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:46 PM

Dear Meredith, You rock. Sincerely, Allie

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Hilarious. Or sad (because true).

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:59 PM

*wants to be like aravind when he grows up*

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:42 AM

@Stabby - Then I'm a hunter-gatherer. Jeez, have you learned nothing from KGH??? It's not about re-enactment, it's about getting as much tail as possible. You need to stop reading the biochem and hang out with Kamal and me at the bar. Then you'll understand.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:13 PM

That's why Meredith is my gal, along with Danielle, Shari, G2C...man this polygamy thing is a lot of work.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:22 PM

*an asterisk before and after* will do the trick.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Etc is not paleo - it is latin - a Latin expression meaning "and other things" or "and so on". Either that or it means ETC (magazine), a leftist Swedish magazine OR Earl Thomas Conley, an American country music singer and composer OR Eric Theodore Cartman, a character on South Park. This all came from Wikipedia so it is true.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:00 AM

Not about re-enactment? THEN WHY DID I TRADE MY CLOTHES FOR A SPEAR?! This is a big letdown.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:32 PM

*this* is *so* cool

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on August 13, 2011
at 08:45 PM

Poly-andry;gamy;amory so limiting! http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/the-varieties-of-intimate-relationship/

20
Aeec781cc234fcae119d4a71532058f5

(2047)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Excessive sitting on the ass.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

Or maybe Gary Taubes.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 08, 2011
at 11:02 AM

Really...you piss down on the shoulders of giants...you must be somemmmmmmbody.

16
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:51 AM

I'm going with cocaine. I think that we are surrounded by it, in a figurative sense.

Sounds dumb, but bear with me. Get ready for a way-too-long answer. Moreso than food reward, I'm looking at our attitude on reward in general. Food reward is an unconventional but excellent answer as to what it is about our diets that is most negatively affecting our health. Aravind and I were talking at AHS about dose-dependent toxins, and wondered if the big 3 (gluten, n-6, sugar) are mostly a big deal because people eat so much now. If packaged foods have more of these three, and people eat way more packaged food and food in general, then oila!

But why do people eat so much packaged food? Lots of reasons, obviously. Convenience, price, palatability, blah blah. But one factor lurking in the background is that there just isn't time for the average Joe to think about food or prepare it themselves. Time is spent doin things that we know temporarily will make us happy-- checking Gmail 10-100 times a day, checking paleohacks 10-100 times a day, facebook, twitter, TV-on-DVD, etc etc.

What if everything had a "Nutrition Label" that showed how it affected your brain? So your smartphone could have a label that says "1 daily dose = 10 mg cocaine". Now I know virtually nothing about neurotransmitters, but I'd bet that the daily dopamine/seratonin/norepinephrine rush from internet/tv/smartphone is [email protected]#$% huge!

Whenever someone gets on a soapbox and talks about how smartphones might be bad, or checking email a billion times a day might be bad, it can sound smart, but nobody cares. We should care! The NIH funds primarly drug and medical device trials because that's where the research agenda is at. Despite this, we paleos have managed to snoop around and find a good approximation of a healthy diet. The NIH is just never going to be that interested in making us live a more mindful life, and stop deepening these grooves in our brain dedicated to instant reward.

I know that if I see something new and interesting on paleohacks, I'll google the shit out of it in an instant. Screw that, if I see something new and interesting in an episode of Golden Girls, I'll google the shit out of that too. The only reason I don't feel like a helpless drug (technology) addict on a daily basis is that everybody I know is doing it. Currently, 30% of my friends check their smartphones in the middle of conversations. I can only imagine what the percentage will be in 10 years. Personally, I hope to reverse direction a bit and wean myself of technology. That will afford much more time for cooking, chillin', pleasure reading, and doing things that I don't feel I have to interrupt to get an email buzz.

In summary, I'm apprehensive that I am no match for technology. There are so many interesting paleo blogs, and that is just one subject matter. When I see someone like Kurt Harris withdraw for a while, it makes smile a little. But another part of me feels like a vampire who craves more KGH posts. Although the connection is roundabout, I do feel like taming this instant-satisfaction monster must be tied to not craving rewarding foods, as well as creating time to build up activities that don't involve information fixes. In fact, I want to get a before-and-after fMRI to track just how hard this hamster is sucking at the sugar (information) straw, and how much I can improve.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:10 PM

Beautifully written, Kamal. I was just saying that I have been having a "real life" lately instead of an online life and sadly, I miss my online stuff and feel really disconnected from things when I can't check PH or my other online hangouts.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 12:58 PM

+1.......... :-) I think we have essentially written the same answer, albeit yours is much more eloquent than mine. Obviously we discussed this too at AHS in one of our more cerebral moments so I completely agree.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 05:06 AM

mmmmmmmmmmmm. dopamine.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:55 PM

stephan wrote about this as one of his last posts on food reward. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/07/simple-food-thoughts-on-practicality.html

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:37 PM

KGH- A few years ago I had an internship at Herbert Benson's "Mind Body Medical Institute", where they taught the Relaxation Response to patients. It worked incredibly well, turning attention to appropriate stress response instead of putting all your marbles into stress-reduction and rules for everything. But oh boy did insurance resist paying, even if it led to weight loss, lower blood pressure, less depression, etc etc.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on August 09, 2011
at 04:17 PM

very insightful. Food reward or susceptibility to it just a subset of a larger problem that links the general culture with our neurochemistry. It is not "stress" that is a problem, it is our culturally sanctioned learned responses to it. Do fish know what water is?

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on August 09, 2011
at 12:15 PM

i love this answer, really. has to be my favorite. im becoming more guilty of this stuff every day and feeling constantly connected to the information hive mind more and more hours out of the day, while struggling to get back to my yoga/meditation/hiking practice and feeling more and more like im being swept away in a fast moving river. and we are a family of luddites. my friend has a TV in her three year olds bedroom. this shit is out of control.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:33 AM

I believe that food reward theorists would do well to move away from terms like "highly palatable" which does NOT translate well, to what I believe it actually IS and people might be able to begin to hear: hyperstimulating. The stress that is the issue in the culture of modern life, which is only worseing, is HYPERSTIMULATION - yes, COCAINE in a multitude of forms. The follwoing has many excellent scientific talks re: addiction as it relates to this subject and food, specifically. Industrial food in particular, is yeat another hyperstimulation.http://foodaddictionsummit.org/agenda.htm

2f931662684a7747be36255c8b486228

(1049)

on August 09, 2011
at 10:22 AM

I fully agree. We are so overstimulated that plain food bores us. 3D movies make gazing at a flat forest dull, and feeling our lungs inflate with fresh air is non-existent. Camping? Kids want water slides and rides that didn't even exist when I was a tot. Yet, on the other hand, if I unplug my computer, will I get bored and...and...Eat? Our worse, go out and kill from frustration' Maybe; it is in our genes. Kill the beast..today's beast is a failed society. And we now go on vacation with fb instead of talking to strangers at the pool.

8ea84667a7f11ac3967f2ecfcad28ad8

(641)

on August 09, 2011
at 05:03 PM

This reminds me of one of Andrew Weil's books from the '90s (can't remember the title). In it, he goes on at length about how humans have a tendency to take something good in nature and turn it into a white powder. IOW, we take a chemical that might be beneficial in the low concentrations found in nature (eg. cocoa leaves), and refine and concentrate it to the point of toxicity.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:29 AM

+1 - You hit the jackpot, Kamal. You've written a bit of a different version of what I would have written had I had the time and energy this evening. The answer to the question is very difficult because yes, it is FOOD REWARD. But the underpinnings of that are huge and cannot, in IMO be divorced from STRESS in all its many, many and varied "disguises" in our culture. The problem is that people cannot hear this. Stress? That's a trite bunch of crap. Well, it's huge. You've talked about a whole area of it and there are others. What "binds" all of this is the word: hyperstimulating. (continued)

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:57 AM

I agree. There is too much noise around us today. I often think about how different people would be if they just sat in the evening after dinner and read a book, sat on the porch, told stories to young kids, sewed something. Just no TV, no computers, none of that stuff. Quiet time. You could consciously choose to meditate etc too of course but I just mean more time spent not doing anything and perhaps semi-ruminating on things, lightly chatting, staring at stuff, playing with tools/hands, etc.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:34 PM

Yeah, pretty much everything that's really important has been covered by Stephan or KGH.

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:20 PM

So glad for this question and your answer, Kamal, I was in Northern Minnesota when it was asked at a family reunion where 7 children 11 and under played their hearts out riding bikes, scooters, trikes, swam, but then would sit in front of the computer as long as their mothers let them. to be continued

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:23 PM

My sister who is recovering from colon cancer has a smart phone that is like a bad lover (Consuela come dance with me my regiment leaves at dawn) She plays games during conversations says she can't knit anymore (chemo nueropathy) and what's the difference? Whew, Boy, don't get me started. I think those machines are like Crack! I'm letting up a bit on PH to study some Spanish, but glad I didn't miss this thread.

14
Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on August 09, 2011
at 01:24 AM

Food reward is the fourth horseman.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:30 AM

good for you to chime in doc. i will now stop acting like fanboy :)

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

This is a good one, too. Bad relationships with food, reward, consolation, celebration... the world revolves around it. Graduating? Let's eat! Getting married? Eat! Funeral? yeah. Feeling tired? Have a snack. Celebrate? With food!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:43 AM

The dysregulation of food reward was originally caused by General Mills. Sugary cereal made me a monster.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:41 AM

What are you talking about Loon? You can't eat a concept. Or this is a really meta answer and I'm being obtuse.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:32 AM

KGH - Does that mean you buy into Food Reward theory now?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Aha, that's where the action's at...http://huntgatherlove.com/content/ancestral-health-symposium-part-1

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:50 AM

Aravind - KGH posted comments about this on Melissa's AHS part 1 blogpost (at Hunt Gather Love)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:33 AM

They fit the bill as the villain and I can't dig that. I mean I can dig it with my spoon but I can't dig what's going on inside me when I do. I agree, sugary cereal is undeniable, it's just crap in a box.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 02:01 AM

The Loon is the same person that said Stephan was throwing his PhD in everyone's face and that he deserved the disrespect received from Gary Taubes at AHS. Need I say more other than, thanks Loon for clarifying (incorrectly) what KGH meant, since we all know the written word and ability to clearly communicate his thoughts are some of KGH's weaknesses

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

I rewarded myself for having fun at AHS by eating a big thing of buttered naan. The mind can make up an infinite number of reasons to seek reward, and food is always there. Good answer.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:28 AM

But what causes the dysregulation of food reward? Occam's razor, our savior.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:37 AM

no, I think he means avoid the concept.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:02 AM

Did you mean Honey Smacks fit the bill, and you dig 'em? Because that shows how deeply ingrained the message is. I know more cereal jingles than American senators.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:04 AM

it was a joke. KGH is a fan of food reward hypothesis.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 01:54 AM

Thanks M. Just read it

Ffff513ac686cd18c840ee12c79357ed

(1183)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

This is a good one, too. Bad relationships with food, reward, consolation, celebration... the world revolves around it. G

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on August 09, 2011
at 05:04 AM

http://foodaddictionsummit.org/agenda.htm Lots to feed your mind here.

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 09, 2011
at 03:01 AM

Food reward as SG defines it ("the psychology term") is conceptually nonsense from the get-go and, unlike your first three horsemen, "palatability" is not practically sellable to most anyone as something that can generally be (or should be) voluntarily eliminated or avoided. Might be of interest in treatment of existing obesity. Might be interesting for exploring the poorly-understood neurophysiological mechanisms related to appetite and eating behaviors. But definitely not a horseman candidate imo.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:49 AM

I can dig it. That was actually a rhetorical question, it's a relationship between stuff that causes leptin resistance and stuff that is cracktastic. Sugar smacks fit the bill http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19091915 (in rats, but it's a mammalian constant).

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on August 09, 2011
at 04:09 PM

IF we are talking about causes - plural - of diseases of civilization I think the entire cultural milieu of food - how it is mixed, cooked, prepared, combined and processed and even literally the mental space it occupies is likely to be an independent contributor to DOC via excess caloric intake and to obesity via setpoint dysregulation. The concept makes quite a lot of sense to me and is not at all incompatible with DOC also being caused by the unique properties of wheat, excess (not just a few pieces of fruit) fructose and excess linoleic acid. There may be other significant NADs as well.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 04:58 PM

What makes this an interesting horseman candidate for me is all that's involved with "professionally designed" industrial foods.

12
Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:06 AM

I'm thinking nutrient deficiencies for your fourth. They can be huge determiners of health. Deficiencies of copper, selenium, vitamin c, zinc, choline, etc. can raise the risk of chronic disease significantly, and most SAD people aren't getting enough of them.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:53 PM

i was under the understanding that it's pretty hard to get magnesium from whole foods...

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

But I think we should count sunlight and breathing in airborne microbes/possibly eating dirt as nutrition, because they are things we need to get into the body, so that kind of shares the lifestyle territory. Big piece of the puzzle there in the gut flora and stuff we synthesize due to contact with sunlight.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:04 AM

Who's plugging anything except for eating a nutritionally complete diet? There isn't even mention of supplements, that stuff comes from food.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:54 AM

The Big Stabowski-- I was looking for more of a historical, European anthro type link, if you've got one handy. Or I guuuuessss I could google.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:06 PM

What Stabatron said. I guess it shows the kind of food culture we have when somebody says to get nutrients and the first thing that comes to mind is GNC.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:29 AM

White bread caused Europe to go insane? This is a perfect time to provide a link, Stabs.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:07 PM

Although I do appreciate a Comment On a downvote, so thanks.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

But I think we should count sunlight and breathing in airbourne microbes/possibly eating dirt as nutrition, because they are things we need to get into the body, so that kind of shares the lifestyle territory.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Ding ding. I asked Kurt Harris once to make that number 4, And mentioned it yesterday. I tend to think that most of the lifestyle facts actually stem from mal-micronutrition. The introduction of white bread in Europe caused the insane asylums to fill up like nothing else, and fortification of bread mitigated it. Of course we don't want fortified bread we want paleo food.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:40 AM

I heard it from Emily Deans on an interview, but a quick pubmed search demonstrates that if your diet is deficient in B vitamins your brain goes to hell http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16987159 Even the white bread now is better than what they had, due to fortification

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:45 AM

Thanks stabinator. Glad to see someone else (who happens to be very intelligent) thinking along the same lines.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:20 AM

Downvote for plugging GNC.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:52 PM

When I see chemical names I think of GNC. I also think of what's sitting in the tank farm next to my office. Neither of which connects with food.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:41 PM

Mineral water. Presumably that was what our ancestors were drinking. I happen to lOve gerolsteiner.

9
B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:43 PM

Big Brother.

You can't eat it, but it ruins everything. Heck, it fluoridates our water (which has been proven to increase complacency), takes away our money (thus, less to spend on grass-fed beef and organic greens), messes with our careers (leading to stress and cortisol spikes), tries to zap our intelligence with TV and useless celebrity babble to distract us from reality (goodbye new neural synapses that could have been formed), uses the FDA 'stamp of approval' to allow toxic chemicals in out food supply (mm .. preservatives and aspartame and all things toxic and lovely), oh how I could go on and on and on ...

The main horseman of the apocolypse: Big Brother.

A cavewoman wouldn't put up with this. I am a cavewoman. I won't.

P.S. Gotta love me some thought police ...

361e96d70d6d3b91d63f6ad975e60ab6

(840)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:12 AM

Are they not just behind it all?

9
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:55 AM

Lack of sleep for sure...

8
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:32 AM

I'll propose insufficient sunlight, leading to massive Vitamin D deficiencies. Or, put another way, too much time spent indoors.

8
D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on August 09, 2011
at 01:06 AM

My money's on trans fats - or preservatives, which actually - surprisingly - aren't discussed all that much on PaleoHacks.

B14dc4aa1ddefbec3bc09550428ee493

(3909)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:38 AM

If you are eating real food they just aren't an issue anymore. I think that's why nobody is talking about them here.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:09 AM

I think because it's just by default understood. Even by CW

2bdc990a200584a385650cf68475f095

on August 09, 2011
at 09:44 PM

I think this is too general. Citric acid can't really compare to trans fat and even between the preservatives you have a range of different substances with different effects.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:47 PM

ooohhh I totally agree with you familygrok! All the baloney they put into foods is really the bad s**t additives, stabilizers, colourings and preservatives

7
E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on August 09, 2011
at 05:39 PM

Economics. The drive to make everything cheaper destroys food quality. It's what led to vegetable oils, factory farming, food additives, and grain based commodity agriculture. Stress is huge too.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:23 PM

Ah, good one! Cheaper, faster, bigger has gone slightly out control the past couple centuries.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:24 PM

PS...did you see the picture of you and fellow paleohackers with Mark Sisson in that other thread?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I'm still waiting for Andy's new avatar. Maybe the mountains in Colorado? Another character from Amelie? The possibilities are endless.

7
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:14 AM

Reduced proprioceptive feedback and increased nociception.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:35 AM

and the original comment was just a quick blurb, as I dont think before i type anyhow :)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:50 AM

thanx Loon! Its actually pretty cool. Not like super top of everyones list but hey to each their own :)

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on August 09, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Now can you add an informative link to those of us rubes who have no idea what those are? (Thanks! :-D)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:30 AM

Well, basically when parts of the body align, move, and work properly they send afferent (to the brain) signals more dominated by proprioception. When they are misaligned, dysfunctional, or even injured you get more nociceptive feedback. One tends to inhibit the other. Nociception is not always a pain response, but does through various feedback loops stimulate the human "stress" or sympathetic response increasing allostatic load. A lot of studies that show movement to improves physiologic or cognitive markers points to this.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:39 AM

well, I upvoted just because it sounds cool

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:15 AM

cool answer .

6
559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:16 AM

Ok, I'm going with a preservative/pesticide combo and calling it: Food Additives

Stress is big tho.

5
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:39 AM

I'll go with the sunshine/outdoors. Does that make it a two-headed horse or a fifth horse? And I wouldn't go with gluten on the other horse, but switch it with wheat.

4
C9da3666dc6141d9f7236025f59956e3

on August 09, 2011
at 11:58 AM

Soy is terrible!

3
5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 06, 2012
at 11:57 PM

Jack Kruse .

3
91d422b073139d35e0856967ba1c21d6

on August 09, 2011
at 03:34 PM

There could be nine horsemen, if the metaphor were switched to the Ringwraiths (Nasgul) from The Lord of the Rings. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m680117a_P1Mb1.jpg

Under that rubric I'd add (in no particular order) cortisol, overpopulation, technology, soy/legumes, veganism. and greenhouse gases.

If I had to pick one and stick within Kamal's type of categories . . . cortisol.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:28 PM

Pale-O-Girl - would you mind sending me an email (on my profile)? I have an offline question to ask...

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on August 09, 2011
at 06:29 PM

Pale-O-Girl - would you mind sending me an email (on my profile)? I have an offline question to ask... nothing weird or creepy :-)

3
5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Human kind is responsible for a helluva lot more than four horsemen. We've created a Budweiser Clydesdale team of health challenges to contend with.

3
Medium avatar

on August 09, 2011
at 02:42 AM

I voted for three. Could we simply have two sets of four? I'll leave the rest of you to haggle that out.

I'm too tired from lack of sleep, Vit D deficiency, and too many damn calories. Although it is seeming that any calories are too damn many.

grouse complain bitch kvetch whine carp grumble bellyache

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:01 AM

as long as you don't whinney

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Excess calories...caused by hyper-palatable high reward food...just ask the Pimas...

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 08, 2011
at 03:05 PM

Mercury in our teeth! I had my amalgams removed one years ago and just finished my third five day round of chelation with oral ALA and oral dmsa and I'm very pleased with the progress. Energy up, mood better, better results in gym and bedroom, less calories consumed (better food absortion I feel.). Only negative, short term memory loss while "on round". Memory gets solid again when "off round". This is where I have to differ with the Quilt and Harris . (They seem to poo-poo the toxicity of Mercury in amalgams) There is something going on. Granted the Ala can be doing this with its antoxidant effect ,rather than with it chelation effect, but I feel pretty bad the first day "off round" ,as well as if I don't dose "on round" close enough to the ALA half life. Feeling lousy would be due to a redistribution of the Mercury. Coming off any other antioxident never has this effect for me. And even more telling, why the memory loss. No other antioxidant gives me short term memory loss. Stirring up Mercury and redistibuting it would be such a cause though.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 08, 2011
at 03:18 PM

loilo has his smog pic just below this comment. I feel the Mercury is a muchmore toxic than the pollution.Why not just suck on the tail pipe!

2
8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:31 PM

Elevated Cortisol!?

2
226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:31 AM

Trans-fats.

Health: Healthy cells require healthy cell membranes in order to efficiently absorb nutrients and eliminate metabolic waste.

Happiness: A toxic cellular environment puts someone at risk for cancer and other degenerative diseases that will make you sad :(

Longevity: When you're cells can't eat and breathe, they weaken and die. Tissues die, then an organ, body system and you.

1
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on September 24, 2012
at 11:46 AM

I'm going with car culture. Car culture contributes mightily to many of the problems that vex us, particularly in a built environment that practically ensures we all participate in that culture. Problems include:

  • crashes as a leading cause of death, and the top cause of child death
  • no sidewalks in many communities
  • diminished access to healthy food, limited to big-box supermarkets that dominate food production with a focus on cheap, mass-marketed processed food
  • increased reliance on the convenience of drivethru restaurants, almost none of which offer food worth eating
  • ability to obtain food from farther and farther away, leading to reduced access to locally grown food
  • children who never walk to school, and thus grow up not recognizing their own bodies as efficient, healthy transportation machines
  • reduced exposure to the outdoors and the sun (driving from garage to garage, barely setting foot outside to go from our homes to the office, to the store, back home, etc.
  • reduced opportunities to benefit from the exertion of lifting and carrying things over distances
  • diminished sense of community, and healthy social contact with others
  • increased stress and anxiety caused by traffic
  • near constant exposure to pollutants, and toxins released from the car itself from its exposure to heat and UV ("indoor air quality" worse in cars than most anywhere else)
  • ...and many more

I don't have a car, but even I have significant dependance on them. One can hardly help it these days, and car culture works very well at encouraging our complicity in the food environment which we struggle against.

1
0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on September 24, 2012
at 10:32 AM

GMOs in food and in the feed of the animals most people eat.

And sure all the other toxins from the air, the water and the chemicals we put on our skin.

1
E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on December 08, 2011
at 02:41 PM

the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse:-gluten,-vegetable-oil,-sugar,-and-[who-am-i?]

^

1
Cf461c5ebe9d5c040d780215c8f36b80

on December 08, 2011
at 02:15 AM

I would say "Trans Fats or Hydrogenated Fat" and in fact, that should be the first one

1
D5a52362ba91628833829a52acf1c227

on August 31, 2011
at 02:08 AM

  • Lack of exercise
  • Lack of Sleep
  • Lack of sunshine
  • Too much stress

??

Wait that's four. Okay trans fats? And then those 4 up there can be... another set of four horsemen I guess. Meh. I can't say I know exactly what I'm talking about.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:14 PM

ALEs...........

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:52 PM

i'd go with lagers

1
2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on August 09, 2011
at 11:51 AM

Lead...........

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on August 09, 2011
at 01:44 PM

...can't handle ... all the ellipses ....

1
6810afeed347463af5792b1a3444cba7

on August 09, 2011
at 06:05 AM

processed food

it's a catch all for the worst stuff not fitting under the first three

1
559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 03:59 AM

my candidate isn't on the ballot.

I'm writing in: Gut Dysbiosis

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:10 AM

yeah, i just realized that... not exactly a helpful heuristic. i'm about to reneg it.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:09 AM

now that's like the whole carriage, too

0
6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157

on May 06, 2012
at 10:54 PM

This is a good question Kamal.

I'm going to say pesticides along with environmental toxins like pollution.

-1
61f8248b59ddcc177d985f9e7d4996ed

on March 07, 2013
at 04:41 AM

black hoes with dildoes

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