31

votes

Should we stop blaming fructose as well? Thoughts on Danny Roddy.

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 14, 2011 at 4:53 PM

Danny Roddy has been writing a lot about the benefits of sugar (inspired by the work of Ray Peat). He used to follow a paleo diet, but not anymore - he advices the consumption of dairy, sugar (white sugar and orange juice,) shellfish, eggs, meat (emphasis on gelatinous cuts), liver... (he does recommend avoiding grains, soy, legumes, etc.).

In his latest post he questions the "anti-fructose crusade" again. Seems like the only problem he sees is HFCS - refined white sugar not being so much of an issue. He lost 20 lbs. by drinking 64 oz. of orange juice every day.

There was already some discussions about Ray Peat on PaleoHacks (here and here) - and for some his dietary advice might might work and are even compatible with a paleo/primal approach (raw dairy, coconut oil, less muscle meat, more shellfish, etc). But I just can't deal with the cognitive dissonance when Peat states that blood sugar should be high and recommending eating Haagen-Dazs ice-cream every day (for the calcium and sugar, apparently).

Not sure about Roddy's position on starch, but Peat advices against it, favoring sugar instead.

So, what do you think? Sound advice or over-focus on healthy hair?

I'm not really a fan of sarcasm so sentences like I cured my "broken metabolism" with a "Naeolithic agent of disease" don't really convince me :)

6f4425e3c7dc0efe60da531c5d991487

(373)

on May 22, 2013
at 03:05 AM

Nice analysis, Iggy Popsicle. Thanks. For me, it boils down to not being able to follow --or pay for-- advice given by someone as soulless* as Danny Roddy. I know I know.....it's not the least bit scientific, but it has never failed me. *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xUZ7e8ct-k

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:21 PM

Daniel that's one weird request, there's no kind of study like that for paleo either.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:19 PM

Yeah, I love how Lustig starts his talk with "what do the japanese diet and the atkins diet have in common .... no fructose" but he completely ignores the raw vegan diet which is pretty damn popular nowadays.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:14 PM

Isn't this true for all of us? And on the other hand, the interesting part is that people like Taubes or Lustig can't change their stance on fructose or they'll ridiculize themselves. Peat can do that, because he never sold his ideas. Peat too, is still looking around trying to find new things. So even though Danny might grow dissatisfied with Peat, maybe Peat will grow dissatisfied with his own ideas too and who knows what'll happen. In other words, I don't think "in a year or two the Ray Peat honeymoon will be over" is a good argument to use against Danny.

Db83c2c5ea492d6716c28a0b561ee174

(161)

on June 23, 2012
at 01:05 PM

As IfYouSaySo said, it's known that constant consumption of high fructose cause leptin and insulin resistance. It simply binds to leptin receptors. As simple as that. Personally, i believe 100g carbs per day in summer and low carb in winter should be the right protocol. Unfortunately this implies dealing with the long-lasting effects of the SAD first.

Ecb90bbbd5a15868b2592d517a4a5e82

(280)

on April 13, 2012
at 12:10 AM

If your metabolism is good, you can flex without difficulty - for several decades even. But when you get older, then the damage starts to hit internally. If your metabolism is bad, or you lost the genetic lottery, the damaged shows up quick. Roddy is clearly a guy who won the genetic lottery. We won't know how it ends up for him for another 15 years or so. But obesity isn't just about visible fat - you can be skinny and still metabolically obese.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:47 PM

I've done Peat's protocol, 100% compliant for 35 days. You are full of shit Danny. Now here is where you tell us that unless we got tons of blood tests and shelled out money for you or Peat to coach us "we did it wrong". How very 80/10/10....

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I think taxation of any processed food makes perfect sense. This isn't specifically to encourage or discourage eaters but to deal with the fact that the more crap you eat the more of a burden you are placing on society. Think of it as a way to get Kraft to help pay for all the healthcare issues Mac 'n' Cheese are causing.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:30 PM

Cliff - I was a 450lb Vegan. I can tell you right now that it is 100% possible for some people to drink a gallon of juice and not be the least bit satiated. I'd also eat 6-8 cups of rice, lots of veggies, huge amounts of legumes. I was a 0% junk food vegetarian who was massively Obese.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on April 12, 2012
at 06:10 PM

My previous comment is kinda ironic : I'm now drinking tons of OJ. My meals are pretty weird lately : oysters + liver + ghee + coconut oil + haagen-dasz + chocolate + baking soda + calcium carbonate + grape juice + gelatin = ???

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:29 AM

I had tooth sensitivity on zero-carb. Eating fruit solved everything. My teeth feel freaking awesome atm.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:27 AM

What's the gelatin and OJ protocol? Seems like reductionism of Peat's guidelines.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:25 AM

Yeah, I do better with fruit but my skin would get worse if I wouldn't eat oysters and liver frequently.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:23 AM

Peat is okay with starch, he just prefers fructose. A lot of peatarians eat potatoes.

3e09df17db550681d1c9b00f428eed8d

on March 18, 2012
at 06:26 PM

And on a more esoteric note...much of Danny's interest in health seems deeply ego-driven in the Eastern/Buddhist sense. The book A Course in Miracles describes the ego's credo as "Seek, but do not find." So if this is true (who knows, I may be totally wrong), then I would predict that Danny will grow dissatisfied with Peat after a while and begin to identify flaws in his health that are either caused or not addressed by Peat's system. Then he'll go looking for another path to perfect health, and the cycle will continue...

3e09df17db550681d1c9b00f428eed8d

on March 18, 2012
at 06:20 PM

Yeah, but his hair loss apparently ceased long before he ever discovered Peat, so it's puzzling to me why he felt the need to continue experimenting. And if his hair loss completely went away on a zero-carb carnivorous diet, why does he say/imply that large amounts of dietary sugar are necessary to halt hair loss?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 07:53 AM

"In a year or two the Ray Peat honeymoon will be over" I'm pretty sure he has found what he needs since he has hair like a fox now...

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on February 24, 2012
at 01:06 AM

Thing is, you really want to increase nutrition along with increasing metabolism by ingesting sugar. That would mean more protein, vit A/D/K etc, by eating say liver. That is distinctly not part of your average big gulp drinker. Or smoker, smoking increases metabolism too btw... No, Im not recommending smoking.

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on February 24, 2012
at 01:05 AM

Thing is, you really want to increase nutrition along with increasing metabolism by ingesting sugar. That would mean more protein, vit A/D/K etc.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:54 PM

except the metabolic effects associated with fructose are absent on fat free diets.... Nothing is proven as you say. How do you explain the 811 diet and why it makes people so skinny?

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:14 PM

For my little Ray Peat experiment I mixed bone broth with orange juice, so it wasn't just juice alone. I suppose it is possible I didn't have enough fat in the mix, but I think the effects of sugar on me point to metabolic damage. I keep thinking maybe it is different now that I am a thin person, but my response to sugar/starch keeps calling me back to the low-carb side of things.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:40 PM

i eat raw cranberries...

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:16 PM

The end result is that it's wrecked metabolism, largely via fructose, that makes you fat and insulin resistant, not PUFA. PUFA plays some role, as does wheat a la Dr. Davis, but the major contributor is sugar via fructose. We have the most proven metabolic pathway showing metabolic derangement through fructose than we do with PUFA or n-3/n-6 imbalance.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:12 PM

Lustig is largely right. What Lustig calls sugar addiction is really hyperpalatability. Both Seth Roberts and Lustig arrive at the same thing: it's addiction to a few ingredients like sugar/fructose or a combination of sugar w/salt, spice and fat.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:46 PM

@melissa- thats because using starch as your main cal source is fail :). @august- if you drank juice by itself and not in combination with a meal that could explain a lot of your issues. Rays guidelines are all about managing blood sugar and keeping stress low through frequent mixed meals of pro/sugar and some fat.

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:22 PM

Peat has also experimented on himself with at least one hormone - pregnenalone. So that would be a confounding factor. He also believes in supplements but that they need to be tailored for a particular purpose -- ex: certain supps for when one is under stress; certain supps to turn a positive pap smear back to negative etc etc.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:17 PM

I'm liking Peter @Hyperlipid's explanation better, when I can understand him. Keep thinking I need a bio-chem degree. But, yeah, it is a low-energy, very depressed world when I eat too many carbs. The fruit juice seemed to make me energetic at first, but then that went away. There is also a very obvious no-fun addict feeling. I eat sweet foods first and I eat them all. The six little raisin boxes look like things one can reasonably dispense with throughout a week, but NO! I don't think they lasted two hours in my house. Then the insulin goes and clears out too much of my blood sugar.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:41 PM

tell yourself whatever you want to justify your dogma

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 16, 2011
at 05:44 AM

If you wanna look older than your age, the quickest method is to overload on sugar by drinking Big Gulp sodas and pigging out on hot fudge sundaes. Smoking a few packs per day will help you get there, too.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 16, 2011
at 05:39 AM

How do u know it is PUFA or gluten? My VLC diet included gluten and PUFA including n6/n3 imbalance. At the time, my exclusion was high glycemic carby foods and sugar. I was consistently consuming gluten and did not start taking fish oil until later last year; my skin is the same. The issue with fructose is glycation and AGES, which accelerate the aging process. This is the specific evidence against sugar and fructose. In fact, you don't need to be very observant to see very visible, accelerated aging in those who are sugar junkies.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 16, 2011
at 04:30 AM

Fruit juice doesn't bother me, but I tried the Kitavan style diet with terrible results. I felt low-energy, depressed, and sick all the time. Maybe it was carb flu?

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 16, 2011
at 03:47 AM

Ditto other claims.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 16, 2011
at 03:46 AM

Studies on hair loss Re: your methodologies. 500 people did what Danny Roddy suggested for 6 months, 500 people did nothing, hair counts before and after, yada yada yada.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:38 AM

@Daniel, what do you need cleared up? I link to studies all the time.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:35 AM

"Aside from that, he just seems like a guy that likes orange juice and is otherwise healthy." Heh.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:14 AM

Good point...so these pictures probably mean absolutely nothing.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 02:17 AM

@Jayjay, Peat didn't start to modify his diet until way later in his career.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:14 AM

C. None of the above

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:13 AM

But but the receding hairline!!!

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 16, 2011
at 12:21 AM

@cliff...digestive issues in regards to fructose. Glucose is fine for me.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 16, 2011
at 12:20 AM

I really want to know how old Peat is. Everything is just speculation and wild guesses.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:31 PM

This is the pot and the kettle here...

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:27 PM

Thanks Danny! Then I vote for looking like Peat.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Peat has mentioned that he was a teen in the 40s, so more like 80 or so.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 08:30 PM

Paleo, and components of paleo, have MANY controlled studies (admittedly it's difficult if not impossible to do double blind studies on food) backing them up.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Paleo, and components of paleo, have MANY controlled studies (admittedly it's difficult if not impossible to do double blind studies on food) back them up.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 15, 2011
at 07:30 PM

I think Peat is in his 70's. So the comparison is invalid.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 07:20 PM

what happens to you?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:59 PM

You better not do paleo than because it has no double blind studies....

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:13 PM

Someone shut Melissa up before she makes too much sense.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:11 PM

Ray has stated that he used to drink a gallon of orange juice a day, but in his recent newsletter recommends 32 oz./day. Peat suggests that more orange juice/sugar is needed when stress is high.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:09 PM

Someone shut Cliff up before he makes too much sense.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:45 PM

"Danny, imo, still "falls in love" to easily. I mean: 1 year on a Pemmican only diet etc.? C'mon." Can't argue with that. Experiment for yourself. See if I'm full of shit.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Dinis - looks like you already have a pretty nice head of hair!

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:01 PM

I'm getting really, really confused now, with all that starch, fructose and glucose talk.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 15, 2011
at 01:52 PM

Um, he's going around saying that fructose makes people fat. Something else must actually be making people fat or he'd be svelte. Let's be honest here: a female health writer who looked like him would be laughed out of the room. For some reason men can write weight loss diets or tell people why everyone is fat while being overweight.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 15, 2011
at 01:12 PM

If only people like us were the ones with the $$$ to run studies...

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Depends on the fungal infection. He didn't specify it. While coconut oil may work locally (upper digestive track), the increase in ketone bodies is counter-indicated in fungal and protozoal infections elsewhere.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:27 PM

Lustig is not a paleo guy, he prob only limits his fructose consumption. calling the guy fat is just small minded

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 15, 2011
at 10:54 AM

James Krieger used to have a wonderful lecture on his old blog re: fructose. It outlined all the routes fructose could take. It's pretty hard to top off your glycogen stores, even if that were the only path. LaLonde is right -- it's both *chronic* and *over* consuming that make it problematic.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 15, 2011
at 10:49 AM

@Beth: You're right, Lustig doesn't actually demonize fructose in whole foods as you say, but it's hard to listen to his alarmism-laced lectures equating fructose with poison and not come away thinking all fructose is bad.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 09:24 AM

The unverified claims of one individual with no controls whatsoever speak more loudly than double blind experiments involving many people?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 15, 2011
at 08:05 AM

Real world results speak louder. Danny has them.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 07:07 AM

Sure, if those are his claims. If drugs such as finasteride can demonstrate effectiveness in studies such as http://www.ishrs.org/articles/propecia-study.htm other "treatments" certainly should be able to--if they are in fact effective.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:24 AM

It might be tasty but its a major gut buster, I've tried it unfortunately lol. Dates+cheese is a whole notha story though, pure bliss and extremely easy to digest.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:22 AM

What kinda study would they have? Clinical trials with fruit and milk to cure baldness?? lol

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:21 AM

"But I do notice some significant difference in my skin tone compared to my SAD diet 3 years ago, when I was probably eating 100+g of fructose daily" Along with vegetable oils and nutrient poor foods... This is the problem that people equate sugar to stuff like honey buns and cookies, both of which have massive amounts of wheat and PUFAs.... Peats diet has been the best protocol out of everything I've tried in regards to skin health.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:06 AM

If they could be topped with a jar of almond butter, a pound of dates sounds like the best meal ever!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:43 AM

First off you can't drink a gallon of juice and not feel full, that's complete BS, go try it and report back. The orange juice ray peat advocates doesn't contain added sugar either, nothing wrong with added sugar in the context of a nutrient rich diet though. Now on to your fruit example, you clearly have never had any experience with the 811 diet where an average meal is 10 bananas or a pound of dates. Cranberries aren't a fruit you can even eat raw for the most part, I don't know why you give these as any example.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:39 AM

@Travis where is the proof that juice in a mixed meal causes a flood of the fructose pathways?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:38 AM

@Travis where is the proof that juice in a mixed meal causes a flood of the fructose pathways?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:32 AM

Dental problems have a lot more to do with nutrient deficiencies than carbohydrate intake. I eat even more carbs than danny roddy and my saliva PH never goes below 6.4 and I have no progression in dental problems from my childhood diet.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:17 AM

No drink either a glass of orange or apple juice. You can drink an entire gallon all day and not feel full. What's the difference? No fiber. No soury taste because of added sugar and possibly HFCS. Built-in appetite controls are gone. You have a fructose source that you can ingest with no restriction.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:14 AM

If you eat fructose by eating fruit, you're not gonna be able to ingest enough to damage your liver. Just about every fruit has a built-in appetitite controller. Trust me, do you know anyone that likes to eat 10 apples? I could eat up to 3, but I fill full after 1.5. Actually try this with cranberries. Dont' combine cranberries with anything else, just cranberries. Have about 10. See if you can eat any more. I bet if you're eating just cranberries and nothing else, you'll stop right there. Cranberries are just for taste and garnishment; you can't fill your stomach with them.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:18 AM

hey yo yeyo....completely lacto-powder-paleo compliant

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:31 AM

Thought coconut oil was good for that sort of thing.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:32 AM

...what kind of mexican coke? ;)

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:31 AM

...what kind of mexican coke??

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:30 AM

I have to agree with Bill, since upping my carb intake (a lot) and eliminating coconut oil consumption my fungal infections went away. I am still not big on fructose because it seems to give me some digestion problems but starches treat me well.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:22 AM

But...but...my trigs man!

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 15, 2011
at 01:15 AM

This is how I eat--minus the OJ.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 15, 2011
at 01:15 AM

All of the fructose a raw fruitarian eats is probably either burned fairly quickly or stored in glycogen ... these don't tend to be folks having to worry about perpetual excess calories the way your average SAD eater does.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 15, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Travis, I think that's an important point. I thought Lustig mentioned (at AHS or Harvard or both) that the issue with fructose is the liver's ability to metabolize it. The fiber (and water) in fruit help limit this; when you're dosing via soda (or other SAD foods), not so much.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:31 AM

reading this reminds me of scd protocol....is that what these guys are essentially new day advocates of?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 11:43 PM

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 14, 2011
at 10:11 PM

I wonder what type of hair loss Danny was/is suffering from & is treating via his diet; mpb, telogen effluvium, both or something else?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 09:00 PM

CaveRat: You're completely missing the point of rate of appearance of fructose in the bloodstream with fruit consumption vs. juice/soda consumption.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

cliff: How far back do you want to turn back the clock? Frugivorous at about 10mya. Why don't we turn it all the way back and eat like we did when we were scurrying around at the feet of the dinosaurs.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

cliff: How far back do you want to turn back the clock? Frugivorous at about 10mya. Why don't we turn it all the way back and eat like we did when we were scurrying around at the feed of the dinosaurs.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:45 PM

It's almost as though junglesop is a fruit-bearing tree rather than a fructose spigot. Imagine that.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:37 PM

ok, clear enough. I was speaking more generally to the common "paleo" perspective that carbs in any form should be avoided (or limited only to "safe starches"). For what it's worth, I find that if I'm lagging, and have a glass of OJ, I feel MUCH better. I've also used a little honey - straight - the same way. It feels *good*, and not like an evil poison either.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:33 PM

I have no idea who Lustig works for, but it's not unreasonable to ask if it's relevant. After all, if his funding comes from an organization with a vested interested demonizing fructose (say, to promote industrial substitutes) that would be good to know. I have heard Ray Peat say that fructose is the next "target" now that the cholesterol myth is teetering, but don't know the facts there.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Hmm, Lustig mentions sometimes how fruit is OK because of the fiber. Then it's back to the real problem, which is industrial food, not fructose.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:26 PM

"There simply isn't an evolutionary precedent for that much fructose" - I disagree. That's just something people say because they are picturing the cliche of glaciers and caves. But imagine some paleolithic tribe surrounded with junglesop trees in season. Are they really not going to eat their fill of free and easy deliciousness whenever they can? As long as that kind of fruit was available - and it was - I can't believe they wouldn't be eating it.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:26 PM

I thought that the chronic problem with fructose was not getting any satiation signal, resulting in overconsumption. If you use your brain to control how much you eat, you won't overconsume it. You can also demonize it, ban it out of your diet, shut your brain off and let other people continue to think for you.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 08:22 PM

@CaveRat, yes, I know that. What I was trying to bring under discussion was the advice of consuming fruit juice everyday and using refined white sugar as part of one's diet. I'm all for real food and I've never been afraid of the sugar in fruit - but that usually means the whole fruit, not just the juice.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Whaa? I didn't downvote, but this answer is incoherent. Follow the money to Lustig working in a biochem lab (does Rockefeller sell a product which would benefit from the regulation of fructose? how does money connect?) to debt slavery? Are you suggesting Lustig will somehow force you to take out an adjustable rate mortgage to buy fructose and then jack the rate to ensure you never get out from under it? Or is this all a load of sarcasm? I need a "not sure if serious" smiley...

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Here's Denise Minger's excellent overview of the kinds of fruits available: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

I know that that low-carb in some form is part of the paleo meme, so it always seems dissonant to read about eating white sugar. But I'm not convinced that from a evolutionary perspective sugar is actually bad; we didn't entirely evolve into modern humans "on the glacier". We were *everywhere*, including in locations with very sweet fruit (the idea that fruit was "small and bitter" is a myth - there are MANY species of fruit especially in Africa that are as sweet as any plum or nectarine available today). Did ALL our ancestors pass up delicious fruit in season, saying "I'd rather be hunting"?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

@Ambimorph... since adding simpler starches like white potato, and OJ and raw milk I have no fungal infection symptoms at all anymore. My last nagging issue was sleep onset time and it has improved soooo much with more carbs, fruit sugars, low(er) fat.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 14, 2011
at 08:08 PM

I don't think Lustig demonizes fructose that occurs naturally in food.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:04 PM

And while I hate to bag on the dude for being out of shape... when your talking about weight you really ought to walk the walk. How are people supposed to trust your ideas if you actually have gained weight rather than lost it since touting your ideas? Perhaps he doesn't follow his own ideas... but then whats the point?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:02 PM

@Ambimorph... the quick start guide has a blurb and there are various bits scattered about the blog and videos. The jist is, the easier digested the carbs, the less endotoxin. I have found this to be true. OJ, raw milk, and white potatoes made huge improves over consuming mostly high fiber sweet potatoes before. https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Danny-Roddy-Weblog/160367813985550?sk=app_201143516562748

E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:02 PM

maybe not gallons, but drinks lots of oj, skim milk with sugar, Mexican coke, ice cream... you get the idea.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:55 PM

ok fair enough, but Lustig also makes the point that the effects of fructose are changed by vitamin c and fiber. OJ is pretty low on fiber.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:47 PM

"teh ebil fructose" - is that the jam made from LIRKO mice?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:41 PM

I find this assertion about the "ideas are based around reducing bacterial/fungal endotoxin via reducing the amount of fermentable fibers/starches and improving the metabolic rate" interesting. Are you talking about Ray Peat's ideas or Danny Roddy's? As I've already read much from both of their sites and don't necessarily recognize this, I would be grateful if you had a specific link about bacterial/fungal endotoxins to share. Thanks!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:41 PM

We only see in color because we were frugivores right?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:40 PM

The people who eat the most fructose like raw fruitarians have none of the symptoms or pathology so called experts say fructose causes.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:38 PM

I've never seen ray peat recommend drinking gallons of orange juice

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:35 PM

@Dinis-Peat doesn't demonize starch and thinks in the right context it is fine.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:31 PM

Ray Peat eating is working for me (although Hair loss wasn't my issue -low thyroid/bacterial overgrowth). I was only getting worse and worse on Paleo.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Reducing toxin load from gut flora will be much more effective when greatly reducing carb and plant intake from all sources than when consuming more fructose – especially considering the low average rates of fructose absorption.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:25 PM

+1 for anybody who quotes "the dose makes the poison".

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 07:17 PM

Both are interesting, but not paleo. I'll take some lessons and pass on the ideology.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 06:58 PM

+1 for real food. Like I said above, my pet peeve about Peat is on the starch issue. I guess I just can't swallow (no pun intended) extreme positions: Peat seems to demonized starch the way Lustig demonizes fructose. I'll still have that sweet potato and persimmon.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 06:52 PM

I wasn't scoffing/laughing at Danny's or Peat's dietary advice - just wanted to know what people thought of these recommendations. Actually I feel like I'm doing the other way around: I follow a paleo/primal diet and follow *some* of Ray's and Danny's ideas (more dairy, shellfish, etc.) - but I actually did that before reading about Ray Peat or Danny Roddy :)

F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:45 PM

I don't know whether Peat's reasoning is sound, but it is important to keep in mind that he's recommending sugar in the context of low pufa consumption. Fructose plus pufa is a recipe for fatty liver disease, but not sure what would happen with high fructose and low pufa.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:44 PM

nicely said, i agree

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Yeah, Danny posts what he eats on his FB page and he is eating a lot of different stuff.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 05:31 PM

It's a common mistake to point to a practice that allows for fat reduction like the orange juice example above and take the gold medal Carl Lewis leap to "this must then be totally healthy." Sure, you're healthier in a lean state than an obese state, but all but the sedentary can get lean with starch.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 05:19 PM

This is problem with Peat: it doesn't make sense to argue that starch cause obesity. Starchy foods can be a staple (rice, for instance) and a population can still show little obesity (say, Asian cultures).

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 05:16 PM

Peat on fructose: "Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (...), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. Eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten." http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 04:59 PM

I don't he *only* drank orange juice - it was part of his diet, I believe.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on November 14, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Who the fuck drinks only orange juice? Some people are really desperate.

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18 Answers

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16
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 14, 2011
at 05:33 PM

On a Jimmy Moore interview, Mat Lalonde makes the point that "chronic overconsumption" of fructose is the problem. The controversy is not that it's good or bad, it's how much you can tolerate. Seems sensible.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:55 PM

ok fair enough, but Lustig also makes the point that the effects of fructose are changed by vitamin c and fiber. OJ is pretty low on fiber.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:40 PM

The people who eat the most fructose like raw fruitarians have none of the symptoms or pathology so called experts say fructose causes.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:14 AM

If you eat fructose by eating fruit, you're not gonna be able to ingest enough to damage your liver. Just about every fruit has a built-in appetitite controller. Trust me, do you know anyone that likes to eat 10 apples? I could eat up to 3, but I fill full after 1.5. Actually try this with cranberries. Dont' combine cranberries with anything else, just cranberries. Have about 10. See if you can eat any more. I bet if you're eating just cranberries and nothing else, you'll stop right there. Cranberries are just for taste and garnishment; you can't fill your stomach with them.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:09 PM

Someone shut Cliff up before he makes too much sense.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 15, 2011
at 01:15 AM

All of the fructose a raw fruitarian eats is probably either burned fairly quickly or stored in glycogen ... these don't tend to be folks having to worry about perpetual excess calories the way your average SAD eater does.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:17 AM

No drink either a glass of orange or apple juice. You can drink an entire gallon all day and not feel full. What's the difference? No fiber. No soury taste because of added sugar and possibly HFCS. Built-in appetite controls are gone. You have a fructose source that you can ingest with no restriction.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:24 AM

It might be tasty but its a major gut buster, I've tried it unfortunately lol. Dates+cheese is a whole notha story though, pure bliss and extremely easy to digest.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:26 PM

I thought that the chronic problem with fructose was not getting any satiation signal, resulting in overconsumption. If you use your brain to control how much you eat, you won't overconsume it. You can also demonize it, ban it out of your diet, shut your brain off and let other people continue to think for you.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:43 AM

First off you can't drink a gallon of juice and not feel full, that's complete BS, go try it and report back. The orange juice ray peat advocates doesn't contain added sugar either, nothing wrong with added sugar in the context of a nutrient rich diet though. Now on to your fruit example, you clearly have never had any experience with the 811 diet where an average meal is 10 bananas or a pound of dates. Cranberries aren't a fruit you can even eat raw for the most part, I don't know why you give these as any example.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:06 AM

If they could be topped with a jar of almond butter, a pound of dates sounds like the best meal ever!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 15, 2011
at 10:54 AM

James Krieger used to have a wonderful lecture on his old blog re: fructose. It outlined all the routes fructose could take. It's pretty hard to top off your glycogen stores, even if that were the only path. LaLonde is right -- it's both *chronic* and *over* consuming that make it problematic.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:40 PM

i eat raw cranberries...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:30 PM

Cliff - I was a 450lb Vegan. I can tell you right now that it is 100% possible for some people to drink a gallon of juice and not be the least bit satiated. I'd also eat 6-8 cups of rice, lots of veggies, huge amounts of legumes. I was a 0% junk food vegetarian who was massively Obese.

34
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 06:48 PM

Maybe I'm some kind of a libertarian or something, but I shuddered when I saw the AHS interview with Lustig telling us we NEED to make some LAWS to deal with teh ebil fructose. Sounds a lot like the people who also have plenty of scientific papers and are calling to statins in our water system and taxing saturated fat. I think Lustig is bad news and I hope he's not at AHS next year (but he probably will be considering the Harvard Food Law Society had him as a keynote speaker recently). I have no idea what he has to do with paleo anyway. The paleo approach to fructose (which was pioneered by TS Wiley) has always been more nuanced, focusing on seasonality and moderation.

And maybe because I'm an ex raw vegan and I knew people who were lean literally living off fructose, I'm not inclined to demonize it. And that includes Douglas Graham, who is close to Lustig's age. I don't think he looks amazing, but he's leaner and fitter than Lustig. I try not to judge, but when you have someone saying we need to have laws against fructose, that's pretty much throwing stones from a glass house.

Incidentally, I was eating a lot of honey when I worked with bees two years ago in Sweden. And I mean A LOT. And I was very thin, perhaps too thin. I'm strongly in the camp of real food and don't believe in demonizing isolated nutrients that occur naturally in food.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 06:58 PM

+1 for real food. Like I said above, my pet peeve about Peat is on the starch issue. I guess I just can't swallow (no pun intended) extreme positions: Peat seems to demonized starch the way Lustig demonizes fructose. I'll still have that sweet potato and persimmon.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Hmm, Lustig mentions sometimes how fruit is OK because of the fiber. Then it's back to the real problem, which is industrial food, not fructose.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:47 PM

"teh ebil fructose" - is that the jam made from LIRKO mice?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 14, 2011
at 07:17 PM

Both are interesting, but not paleo. I'll take some lessons and pass on the ideology.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:35 PM

@Dinis-Peat doesn't demonize starch and thinks in the right context it is fine.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 14, 2011
at 08:08 PM

I don't think Lustig demonizes fructose that occurs naturally in food.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 15, 2011
at 10:49 AM

@Beth: You're right, Lustig doesn't actually demonize fructose in whole foods as you say, but it's hard to listen to his alarmism-laced lectures equating fructose with poison and not come away thinking all fructose is bad.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:23 AM

Peat is okay with starch, he just prefers fructose. A lot of peatarians eat potatoes.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I think taxation of any processed food makes perfect sense. This isn't specifically to encourage or discourage eaters but to deal with the fact that the more crap you eat the more of a burden you are placing on society. Think of it as a way to get Kraft to help pay for all the healthcare issues Mac 'n' Cheese are causing.

34
Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:27 PM

It's easy to look at Danny's diet and Ray Peats recs and scoff/laugh because it doesn't fit into our evolutionary model... but the improvements Danny made with his Peat-atarian plan are pretty incredible and not without merit.

Alot of his ideas are based around reducing bacterial/fungal endotoxin via reducing the amount of fermentable fibers/starches and improving the metabolic rate. He looks and feels better doing this than he did previously so he's doing something right.

I personally did a few orange juice and raw goat milk + bone broth days when I was feeling a little under the weather and I gotta say... I felt really good. For me, it's not sustainable but I do now incorporate fresh raw OJ and raw goat milk in my diet, eat more fruit and starch, less muscle meats, more eggs, etc etc.

If your not doing great on Paleo... his ideas are worth looking into. I do fairly well on normal paleo but incorporating just a few of his ideas definitely takes me an extra step forward.

I dig the hell out of Paleo and I think the term can be stretched a few ways... but lets not forget we are not Paleolithic anymore... we dont wake up when the sun rises and go to bed as soon as it sets... we have so many modern stressors and we have evolved since the Paleolithic... you can still follow Danny's ideas and be 'Paleo", he still shuns grains, legumes, soy..

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:31 AM

reading this reminds me of scd protocol....is that what these guys are essentially new day advocates of?

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 06:52 PM

I wasn't scoffing/laughing at Danny's or Peat's dietary advice - just wanted to know what people thought of these recommendations. Actually I feel like I'm doing the other way around: I follow a paleo/primal diet and follow *some* of Ray's and Danny's ideas (more dairy, shellfish, etc.) - but I actually did that before reading about Ray Peat or Danny Roddy :)

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:02 PM

@Ambimorph... the quick start guide has a blurb and there are various bits scattered about the blog and videos. The jist is, the easier digested the carbs, the less endotoxin. I have found this to be true. OJ, raw milk, and white potatoes made huge improves over consuming mostly high fiber sweet potatoes before. https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Danny-Roddy-Weblog/160367813985550?sk=app_201143516562748

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

@Ambimorph... since adding simpler starches like white potato, and OJ and raw milk I have no fungal infection symptoms at all anymore. My last nagging issue was sleep onset time and it has improved soooo much with more carbs, fruit sugars, low(er) fat.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Depends on the fungal infection. He didn't specify it. While coconut oil may work locally (upper digestive track), the increase in ketone bodies is counter-indicated in fungal and protozoal infections elsewhere.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Reducing toxin load from gut flora will be much more effective when greatly reducing carb and plant intake from all sources than when consuming more fructose – especially considering the low average rates of fructose absorption.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 03:31 AM

Thought coconut oil was good for that sort of thing.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:44 PM

nicely said, i agree

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 11:43 PM

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:31 PM

Ray Peat eating is working for me (although Hair loss wasn't my issue -low thyroid/bacterial overgrowth). I was only getting worse and worse on Paleo.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:41 PM

I find this assertion about the "ideas are based around reducing bacterial/fungal endotoxin via reducing the amount of fermentable fibers/starches and improving the metabolic rate" interesting. Are you talking about Ray Peat's ideas or Danny Roddy's? As I've already read much from both of their sites and don't necessarily recognize this, I would be grateful if you had a specific link about bacterial/fungal endotoxins to share. Thanks!

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:30 AM

I have to agree with Bill, since upping my carb intake (a lot) and eliminating coconut oil consumption my fungal infections went away. I am still not big on fructose because it seems to give me some digestion problems but starches treat me well.

27
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:34 PM

It's pretty confusing, frankly--it's starting to replicate the weekly "this is bad for you" we heard on SAD except now it's "no, it's not that, that's really ok."

I'm going to let the scientists duke it out and I'll ignore some of the buzz just as I never gave up butter, shrimp, on SAD. I'll continue to avoid HFCS and white sugar and use a small amount of honey. I'll continue to use bone broth as the base for most meat dishes. I'll continue having a piece or 2 of fruit. I'll continue to avoid products with lists of ingredients.

Let me know when this fructose issue is settled!

11
Medium avatar

on November 14, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Eating as much whole fruit as you want is one thing, but huge fructose boluses like that are going to glycate proteins throughout the body. We don't have perfect absorption and transport via the hepatic portal vein to the liver for 100% of fructose ingested, so excess for some will reach the gut and create issues as it is fermented there and for others it will be floating around the general bloodstream, which is the last thing you want. There simply isn't an evolutionary precedent for that much fructose at once every single day.

Honey has a fair amount of unbound fructose, but it simply isn't something we were getting our hands on 24/7/365.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 05:31 PM

It's a common mistake to point to a practice that allows for fat reduction like the orange juice example above and take the gold medal Carl Lewis leap to "this must then be totally healthy." Sure, you're healthier in a lean state than an obese state, but all but the sedentary can get lean with starch.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:45 PM

It's almost as though junglesop is a fruit-bearing tree rather than a fructose spigot. Imagine that.

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 05:16 PM

Peat on fructose: "Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (...), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. Eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten." http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml

F571bcba0e6196c3e53f599924eecab6

on November 14, 2011
at 05:19 PM

This is problem with Peat: it doesn't make sense to argue that starch cause obesity. Starchy foods can be a staple (rice, for instance) and a population can still show little obesity (say, Asian cultures).

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:26 PM

"There simply isn't an evolutionary precedent for that much fructose" - I disagree. That's just something people say because they are picturing the cliche of glaciers and caves. But imagine some paleolithic tribe surrounded with junglesop trees in season. Are they really not going to eat their fill of free and easy deliciousness whenever they can? As long as that kind of fruit was available - and it was - I can't believe they wouldn't be eating it.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

cliff: How far back do you want to turn back the clock? Frugivorous at about 10mya. Why don't we turn it all the way back and eat like we did when we were scurrying around at the feet of the dinosaurs.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:41 PM

We only see in color because we were frugivores right?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:48 PM

cliff: How far back do you want to turn back the clock? Frugivorous at about 10mya. Why don't we turn it all the way back and eat like we did when we were scurrying around at the feed of the dinosaurs.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:39 AM

@Travis where is the proof that juice in a mixed meal causes a flood of the fructose pathways?

8
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on November 15, 2011
at 05:46 AM

The whole point of "safe starch" consumption is that yams, sweet potatoes, yuca and taro, etc. have very little sugar and, hence, very little fructose. I've calculated my average fructose consumption and it's stayed at about 15-20g per day. That used to be about 20-25% of my carbs when I was doing low carb. Now it's about 10-15% of my carbs when I'm consuming 150g of safe starches.

Do I notice any difference? No. But I do notice some significant difference in my skin tone compared to my SAD diet 3 years ago, when I was probably eating 100+g of fructose daily. My skin is velvety and almost translucent, and those skin folds under your neck that make you look wizened are gone. Perhaps this is due to some other dietary changes and the weight loss that followed, but I think abstaining from sugar may have been one such factor.

But the more you stay away from sugar, the more revolting sugar becomes when you accidentally taste it. It's just so much sweeter than any sugar alcohol or stevia that you can't imagine ingesting it. In fact, the safe starches that I eat, like sweet potatoes, are so sweet that I need something sour afterwards -- like cranberries, which also do not have very much sugar. Do look up yams in caloriecounter and see how much sugar/fructose there is: there isn't much. The absence of sugar makes everything else so much more sweeter.

What it does is make the other tastes fuller, restoring the full taste spectrum to your palette. You begin to appreciate sourness, bitterness, and saltiness. All in much smaller doses. That's called liberation from sugar.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:21 AM

"But I do notice some significant difference in my skin tone compared to my SAD diet 3 years ago, when I was probably eating 100+g of fructose daily" Along with vegetable oils and nutrient poor foods... This is the problem that people equate sugar to stuff like honey buns and cookies, both of which have massive amounts of wheat and PUFAs.... Peats diet has been the best protocol out of everything I've tried in regards to skin health.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 16, 2011
at 05:39 AM

How do u know it is PUFA or gluten? My VLC diet included gluten and PUFA including n6/n3 imbalance. At the time, my exclusion was high glycemic carby foods and sugar. I was consistently consuming gluten and did not start taking fish oil until later last year; my skin is the same. The issue with fructose is glycation and AGES, which accelerate the aging process. This is the specific evidence against sugar and fructose. In fact, you don't need to be very observant to see very visible, accelerated aging in those who are sugar junkies.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 16, 2011
at 05:44 AM

If you wanna look older than your age, the quickest method is to overload on sugar by drinking Big Gulp sodas and pigging out on hot fudge sundaes. Smoking a few packs per day will help you get there, too.

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on February 24, 2012
at 01:05 AM

Thing is, you really want to increase nutrition along with increasing metabolism by ingesting sugar. That would mean more protein, vit A/D/K etc.

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on February 24, 2012
at 01:06 AM

Thing is, you really want to increase nutrition along with increasing metabolism by ingesting sugar. That would mean more protein, vit A/D/K etc, by eating say liver. That is distinctly not part of your average big gulp drinker. Or smoker, smoking increases metabolism too btw... No, Im not recommending smoking.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:25 AM

Yeah, I do better with fruit but my skin would get worse if I wouldn't eat oysters and liver frequently.

6
E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 14, 2011
at 06:20 PM

"The dose makes the poison" I have no problems using moderate amounts of sucrose + dairy in the context of a super high fat and protein diet. ( for as long as i can remember btw) Cant say the same about potatoes or rice. Don't know if Ray Peat is 100% right about fructose or drinking gallons of orange juice, but imo some Sugar is fine, as long as you also get your nutrients.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:31 AM

...what kind of mexican coke??

E167c0387a5f0b87bb1f2c3e6aec73a8

(1240)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:02 PM

maybe not gallons, but drinks lots of oj, skim milk with sugar, Mexican coke, ice cream... you get the idea.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 15, 2011
at 01:15 AM

This is how I eat--minus the OJ.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:38 PM

I've never seen ray peat recommend drinking gallons of orange juice

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:11 PM

Ray has stated that he used to drink a gallon of orange juice a day, but in his recent newsletter recommends 32 oz./day. Peat suggests that more orange juice/sugar is needed when stress is high.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 15, 2011
at 02:32 AM

...what kind of mexican coke? ;)

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:25 PM

+1 for anybody who quotes "the dose makes the poison".

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:18 AM

hey yo yeyo....completely lacto-powder-paleo compliant

5
9205855633f4d88fd78339aad4fc54ff

on November 15, 2011
at 05:04 AM

(forgive my english)

Uhm... with the little certainty we can still have on nutrition, one of the strongest points for me "against" carbs was/is always the old plan simple tooth decay. Is it at least a fact that sugar is quite cariogenic, and starch can be a little cariogenic ? (At least when a big % of one's diet. And probably "neolithic starch" or "industrialized starch" even more) You never know, but in the carb vs. fat debate, the Yudkin theory arguing the strangeness of something bad for your teeth (and oral health in general) being the best for your overall health, always seemed the more plausible to me. http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/88/6/490.full

lost 20 lbs. by drinking 64 oz. of orange juice every day The more time passes the more I surrend to the fact that, ok you don't need to be costantly on PSMF, those who aim at some tipe of bodycomposition should "lean" towards higher protein ratio. And while I agree that some glucose isn't that fattening or unhealthy, nor is a little fruit, especially compared to bacon as some lcHF folks think (LOL), 1.8 L of ORANGE JUICE a day? REALLY?!? Plus, given that I'm sure all of us, here, train as much as GSP or Haile Gebrselassie.

I like him, his blog, and copy/take some things from him (ex. carrots are one of the vegetables I eat more often, and I don't eat big amounts of veggies anymore), but always with a "grain" (pun intended) of salt: Danny, imo, still "falls in love" to easily. I mean: 1 year on a Pemmican only diet etc.? C'mon.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:32 AM

Dental problems have a lot more to do with nutrient deficiencies than carbohydrate intake. I eat even more carbs than danny roddy and my saliva PH never goes below 6.4 and I have no progression in dental problems from my childhood diet.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 05:45 PM

"Danny, imo, still "falls in love" to easily. I mean: 1 year on a Pemmican only diet etc.? C'mon." Can't argue with that. Experiment for yourself. See if I'm full of shit.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:29 AM

I had tooth sensitivity on zero-carb. Eating fruit solved everything. My teeth feel freaking awesome atm.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 12, 2012
at 07:47 PM

I've done Peat's protocol, 100% compliant for 35 days. You are full of shit Danny. Now here is where you tell us that unless we got tons of blood tests and shelled out money for you or Peat to coach us "we did it wrong". How very 80/10/10....

4
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:59 PM

I tried the O.J. and gelatin protocol and the results were pretty much as depressing as when I tried eating mostly tubers.
From what I can tell, I can have a dark chocolate bar, a little fruit, etc... but if I try imitating the Kitavins or fool with fruit juice, or most recently dried fruit, bad stuff happens.

Most paleo types are likely playing well under the dose that makes fructose poison, and I think Lustig has admitted that.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 07:20 PM

what happens to you?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 16, 2011
at 04:30 AM

Fruit juice doesn't bother me, but I tried the Kitavan style diet with terrible results. I felt low-energy, depressed, and sick all the time. Maybe it was carb flu?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 16, 2011
at 12:21 AM

@cliff...digestive issues in regards to fructose. Glucose is fine for me.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:17 PM

I'm liking Peter @Hyperlipid's explanation better, when I can understand him. Keep thinking I need a bio-chem degree. But, yeah, it is a low-energy, very depressed world when I eat too many carbs. The fruit juice seemed to make me energetic at first, but then that went away. There is also a very obvious no-fun addict feeling. I eat sweet foods first and I eat them all. The six little raisin boxes look like things one can reasonably dispense with throughout a week, but NO! I don't think they lasted two hours in my house. Then the insulin goes and clears out too much of my blood sugar.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:14 PM

For my little Ray Peat experiment I mixed bone broth with orange juice, so it wasn't just juice alone. I suppose it is possible I didn't have enough fat in the mix, but I think the effects of sugar on me point to metabolic damage. I keep thinking maybe it is different now that I am a thin person, but my response to sugar/starch keeps calling me back to the low-carb side of things.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:46 PM

@melissa- thats because using starch as your main cal source is fail :). @august- if you drank juice by itself and not in combination with a meal that could explain a lot of your issues. Rays guidelines are all about managing blood sugar and keeping stress low through frequent mixed meals of pro/sugar and some fat.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on April 07, 2012
at 07:27 AM

What's the gelatin and OJ protocol? Seems like reductionism of Peat's guidelines.

3
3e09df17db550681d1c9b00f428eed8d

on March 18, 2012
at 07:40 AM

I agree that much of Roddy's advice is quite sound--he's advocating a diet that is basically low in toxins (with the controversial exception of fructose) and rich in nutrients from shellfish, organ meats, fruits, dairy, etc. I can get on board with that.

I also appreciate the fact that he presents an opposing perspective to the unwavering carb-phobia promoted by the VLC cult. I like carbs a lot, I eat plenty of them, and I think Danny is right to point out the significant flaws of ZC and VLC dieting.

Two places where he loses me: (1) The claim that orange juice (and sugar in general) is an ideal source of carbohydrate, and (2) the implication in much of his material that carbohydrate intake in excess of 50% of calories (so that carbohydrate exceeds fat) is necessary for good health.

Once liver glycogen is topped off, which would happen lickety-split on a diet high in orange juice, and assuming that muscle glycogen is not significantly depleted, any additional carbohydrate (either glucose or fructose) that is ingested would simply accumulate in the bloodstream and cause damage through glycation until the body could properly dispose of it, as Travis Culp notes above. Sure, the body will upregulate metabolism and thermogenesis as a means of disposing of the excess sugars, but it seems that one of the primary mechanisms underlying this adaptive response is a release of stress hormones like adrenalin, which is precisely what Danny is trying to avoid.

I have personally experimented with replacing my moderate starch intake (probably 40-50% of calories) with large amounts of orange juice and ice cream for a few days. My response is consistent with the idea that eating sugar in excess of the requirement for replenishing liver glycogen promotes the release of stress hormones. My body temperature and pulse do rise, but I feel very agitated, flushed, jittery, irritable, etc. Anxiety and even panic seem more difficult to control. And then I crash later on. A meal with goodly amounts of starch and fat, even sometimes 60-100 grams of carbs from rice and potatoes in a single sitting, does not have this effect.

So I'm down with carbs, but I'm still not down with huge amounts of sugar/fructose, no matter what Ray Peat says. I suspect that many people are like me.

A final word about Danny: follow his advice at your own peril. In a year or two the Ray Peat honeymoon will be over, there'll be a nasty break-up, and he'll find himself a new squeeze. And who knows what he'll say about fructose then?

3e09df17db550681d1c9b00f428eed8d

on March 18, 2012
at 06:26 PM

And on a more esoteric note...much of Danny's interest in health seems deeply ego-driven in the Eastern/Buddhist sense. The book A Course in Miracles describes the ego's credo as "Seek, but do not find." So if this is true (who knows, I may be totally wrong), then I would predict that Danny will grow dissatisfied with Peat after a while and begin to identify flaws in his health that are either caused or not addressed by Peat's system. Then he'll go looking for another path to perfect health, and the cycle will continue...

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 07:53 AM

"In a year or two the Ray Peat honeymoon will be over" I'm pretty sure he has found what he needs since he has hair like a fox now...

3e09df17db550681d1c9b00f428eed8d

on March 18, 2012
at 06:20 PM

Yeah, but his hair loss apparently ceased long before he ever discovered Peat, so it's puzzling to me why he felt the need to continue experimenting. And if his hair loss completely went away on a zero-carb carnivorous diet, why does he say/imply that large amounts of dietary sugar are necessary to halt hair loss?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:14 PM

Isn't this true for all of us? And on the other hand, the interesting part is that people like Taubes or Lustig can't change their stance on fructose or they'll ridiculize themselves. Peat can do that, because he never sold his ideas. Peat too, is still looking around trying to find new things. So even though Danny might grow dissatisfied with Peat, maybe Peat will grow dissatisfied with his own ideas too and who knows what'll happen. In other words, I don't think "in a year or two the Ray Peat honeymoon will be over" is a good argument to use against Danny.

6f4425e3c7dc0efe60da531c5d991487

(373)

on May 22, 2013
at 03:05 AM

Nice analysis, Iggy Popsicle. Thanks. For me, it boils down to not being able to follow --or pay for-- advice given by someone as soulless* as Danny Roddy. I know I know.....it's not the least bit scientific, but it has never failed me. *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xUZ7e8ct-k

2
Ba09704971e33481f5716c4790648966

(1794)

on April 12, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Sometimes I like to cover my sweet potato in butter and honey and then put cinnamon and nutmeg on it and then put some roast chicken on the side because I would like to think that my paleolithic ancestors would be as interested in delicious food combinations as I am. I also eat with a fork because I like to stay classy.

Adding on to that, I honestly can't stand when people bash other ways of eating. I see this coming from both sides. It isn't everyone but it's definitely there. I'm happy that it works for you, and you're free to express your opinion but why do you feel the need to bash another way of doing things?

1
Bfddc0ab925c8ea0e0c2e87198514907

on January 04, 2012
at 05:13 PM

My guess is he has some great advice if you make it your own.

I get the impression he resolved his hairloss primarily through fixing his digestive problems (something that brought many people to figuring out what is best for them to eat) and ensuring he gets the right nutrients at the same time.

Because of this, really, his advice comes from trying to make sure plenty of certain nutrients are in his diet, but from substances that aren't causing him any problems. This however doesn't mean that the same food will serve you personally as well; you may be better suited to finding these nutrients elsewhere.

The principle of first resolving digestion (remembering that digestive stress promotes hairloss) and then making sure you get pro-hair nutrients without creating digestive stress seems to me to be the key to his success and the best thing to take away from his work (in addition to this understand the nutrients required and things to avoid in order to promote hair growth).

For instance: he recommends eating a lot of dairy, and no vegetables. Now, maybe I'm mad, but this wouldn't suit me... I tolerate dairy fine, but a lot of it definitely increases mucus in me and I don't feel as good. I eat cheese, and drink milk, but in moderation.

Lots of green salad leaves are my staple, and have massively improved my heath. If I don't get them in, I decline. He apparently doesn't need them.

Seafood, orange juice, carrots, organ meats... all seem like very sound advice to me, and another thing to note is that he eats simple meals: a glass of orange juice, cup of coffee and a bowl or cottage cheese... mono eating, or close to it, is probably very good for one's digestion.

1
4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:14 PM

That's an interesting study about HFCS having more calories than commonly thought. Aside from that, he just seems like a guy that likes orange juice and is otherwise healthy.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:35 AM

"Aside from that, he just seems like a guy that likes orange juice and is otherwise healthy." Heh.

1
Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:30 PM

I was just thinking of how PUFA's may be the real evil in our diet, and not so much the carbs such as fructose or even grains. I like how as I soon as I asked a related question, several questions pop up about whether sugar/grains are really that bad for you. Paleohackers think alike.

0
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on April 12, 2012
at 06:11 PM

I don't think fruit is bad at all and that moderate consumption of fruit in healthy, active people will not stall fat loss. I think fructose is bad because we eat calorically dense items (candy, ice cream, soda, juice, etc) and then push ourselves into a caloric surpluss, where excess fructose will lead to unhealthy weight gain. If you are eating maintenance or below, I think the inclusion of fresh fruits is a good thing.

0
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 07:21 PM

Who would you rather look like peat-should-we-stop-blaming-fructose-as-well?-thoughts-on-danny-roddy. or lustig-should-we-stop-blaming-fructose-as-well?-thoughts-on-danny-roddy.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:14 AM

C. None of the above

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 15, 2011
at 07:30 PM

I think Peat is in his 70's. So the comparison is invalid.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:27 PM

Thanks Danny! Then I vote for looking like Peat.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:41 PM

tell yourself whatever you want to justify your dogma

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on November 16, 2011
at 12:20 AM

I really want to know how old Peat is. Everything is just speculation and wild guesses.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Peat has mentioned that he was a teen in the 40s, so more like 80 or so.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 02:17 AM

@Jayjay, Peat didn't start to modify his diet until way later in his career.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 01:13 AM

But but the receding hairline!!!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:14 AM

Good point...so these pictures probably mean absolutely nothing.

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:22 PM

Peat has also experimented on himself with at least one hormone - pregnenalone. So that would be a confounding factor. He also believes in supplements but that they need to be tailored for a particular purpose -- ex: certain supps for when one is under stress; certain supps to turn a positive pap smear back to negative etc etc.

0
25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 06:12 AM

Danny makes many claims, esp. Re: hair loss, which is of interest to me, but I have yet to see good studies to back up his claims...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:59 PM

You better not do paleo than because it has no double blind studies....

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 09:24 AM

The unverified claims of one individual with no controls whatsoever speak more loudly than double blind experiments involving many people?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 15, 2011
at 08:05 AM

Real world results speak louder. Danny has them.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 16, 2011
at 03:38 AM

@Daniel, what do you need cleared up? I link to studies all the time.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 16, 2011
at 03:46 AM

Studies on hair loss Re: your methodologies. 500 people did what Danny Roddy suggested for 6 months, 500 people did nothing, hair counts before and after, yada yada yada.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 07:07 AM

Sure, if those are his claims. If drugs such as finasteride can demonstrate effectiveness in studies such as http://www.ishrs.org/articles/propecia-study.htm other "treatments" certainly should be able to--if they are in fact effective.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 15, 2011
at 01:12 PM

If only people like us were the ones with the $$$ to run studies...

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Paleo, and components of paleo, have MANY controlled studies (admittedly it's difficult if not impossible to do double blind studies on food) back them up.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:22 AM

What kinda study would they have? Clinical trials with fruit and milk to cure baldness?? lol

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 16, 2011
at 03:47 AM

Ditto other claims.

25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on November 15, 2011
at 08:30 PM

Paleo, and components of paleo, have MANY controlled studies (admittedly it's difficult if not impossible to do double blind studies on food) backing them up.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 15, 2011
at 09:31 PM

This is the pot and the kettle here...

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:21 PM

Daniel that's one weird request, there's no kind of study like that for paleo either.

-1
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:45 PM

Follow the money...

Robert Lustig is the propagator of fructose=poison. Lustig worked at the rockefeller biochem lab and has the equivalent of a post-grad education. Lustig wants to tax sugar because of the devil fructose.

Classic debt slave control of the masses.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on November 15, 2011
at 06:13 PM

Someone shut Melissa up before she makes too much sense.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on November 15, 2011
at 12:27 PM

Lustig is not a paleo guy, he prob only limits his fructose consumption. calling the guy fat is just small minded

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Whaa? I didn't downvote, but this answer is incoherent. Follow the money to Lustig working in a biochem lab (does Rockefeller sell a product which would benefit from the regulation of fructose? how does money connect?) to debt slavery? Are you suggesting Lustig will somehow force you to take out an adjustable rate mortgage to buy fructose and then jack the rate to ensure you never get out from under it? Or is this all a load of sarcasm? I need a "not sure if serious" smiley...

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:04 PM

And while I hate to bag on the dude for being out of shape... when your talking about weight you really ought to walk the walk. How are people supposed to trust your ideas if you actually have gained weight rather than lost it since touting your ideas? Perhaps he doesn't follow his own ideas... but then whats the point?

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on November 14, 2011
at 08:33 PM

I have no idea who Lustig works for, but it's not unreasonable to ask if it's relevant. After all, if his funding comes from an organization with a vested interested demonizing fructose (say, to promote industrial substitutes) that would be good to know. I have heard Ray Peat say that fructose is the next "target" now that the cholesterol myth is teetering, but don't know the facts there.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 15, 2011
at 01:52 PM

Um, he's going around saying that fructose makes people fat. Something else must actually be making people fat or he'd be svelte. Let's be honest here: a female health writer who looked like him would be laughed out of the room. For some reason men can write weight loss diets or tell people why everyone is fat while being overweight.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:12 PM

Lustig is largely right. What Lustig calls sugar addiction is really hyperpalatability. Both Seth Roberts and Lustig arrive at the same thing: it's addiction to a few ingredients like sugar/fructose or a combination of sugar w/salt, spice and fat.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:16 PM

The end result is that it's wrecked metabolism, largely via fructose, that makes you fat and insulin resistant, not PUFA. PUFA plays some role, as does wheat a la Dr. Davis, but the major contributor is sugar via fructose. We have the most proven metabolic pathway showing metabolic derangement through fructose than we do with PUFA or n-3/n-6 imbalance.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:54 PM

except the metabolic effects associated with fructose are absent on fat free diets.... Nothing is proven as you say. How do you explain the 811 diet and why it makes people so skinny?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 22, 2012
at 08:19 PM

Yeah, I love how Lustig starts his talk with "what do the japanese diet and the atkins diet have in common .... no fructose" but he completely ignores the raw vegan diet which is pretty damn popular nowadays.

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