8

votes

PUFA's combined with Sugar = AGEs?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 15, 2011 at 3:39 PM

anyone link me to more information about the production of Advanced Glycation End Products when PUFA(PolyUnsaturated Fats:Omega 6 and even Omega 3) are consumed in conjunction with Sugar/Carbs?

If this is accurate, could explain a significant # of Paleo-stalls. As well as a SIZABLE reason why Paleo-Candy Cigarettes, would be wholly dangerous not just not advised.

Almond Flour is high in PUFA, add some sugar(even honey) = instant inflammation bomb?


Edit: extra credit are there PuFA foods that also contain sugars in nature? I can't think of any.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

PUFA and AGEs are VERY well supported, I'm looking for increased damage with the ingestion of fructose simultaneously.

A64ed062eb5e2c3407122fcf16c5de6b

(715)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:56 AM

+1 for the thoughtfullness

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 27, 2011
at 04:25 PM

Very little pufa, mostly mono. Also little carbs/no sugar.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on March 27, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Thanks for catching that I meant to put a comma there with a list: vegetables, nuts, fish, chicken, etc.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on March 27, 2011
at 12:42 PM

I believe avocados have a little bit of sugar as well as the PUFAs

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 27, 2011
at 01:51 AM

"when I add PUFA into my diet via vegetables" - I was wondering what were those vegs that contain that much PUFAs - did you mean veg.oils? or?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 27, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Chris says that statement is going on the errata page for PHD since they misstated some things

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:08 PM

what about masterjohn's article on RAGEs though? He breaks it down in incredible detail: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/is-receptor-for-ages-rage-really.html

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:58 PM

thx for the edit

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 16, 2011
at 11:18 AM

@Dudley did he detail the why? Fructose for liver only or age production? @texasleah I edited to put your link in your answer, because it's a good read

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:39 PM

"Avoid sugar, PUFA or both. Seems sensible to me." [email protected] Stephen, Check out this post--but there other posts about AGEs (He categorizes them as "AGE RAGE") and he links to studies in most. http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/07/age-rage-and-ale-ale-of-ldl.html

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Pufa's breakdown internally too.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on March 15, 2011
at 09:23 PM

It doesn't oxidize as much as when you deep fry it, obviously, but it still oxidizes which is why almost everyone recommends limiting pufa. Our tissues are almost 100 degrees and constantly flooded with oxygen. But, I also wonder how quickly it occurs, and I'm really not sure.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:53 PM

i know, but isn't it with *oxidized* PUFA? ... this is from Masterjohn's essay on AGE's in butter: *Advanced glycation end products, or AGEs, are rogue chemical reaction products that result from the interactions between sugars or oxidized polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) and proteins.* This is why I asked about heated PUFA vs the PUFA found in raw nuts. The only question is does it immediately oxidize in the body quickly enough to interact with the fructose and/or sugar you ate with it? http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/10/is-butter-high-in-ages.html

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:44 PM

Dr. William Hay ("Food combining for health"), also recommended that fruit should be eaten alone at breakfast time

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:43 PM

my only concern is eating fruit and nuts together or nutbutter and raw honey together. that's about it.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:47 PM

And I don't understand how a definitive answer could ever be determined in a human study. So if you are fighting disease, inflammatory conditions or trying to lose weight then it might be best to err on the side of caution and avoid consuming fructose with PUFA. And if it is a concern, what will you be avoiding anyway? Ham cooked with pineapples? Faked baked thingies? BBQd meats with honey sauces? I like to think that it is likely in this case the dose makes the poison and a spoonful of anything won't do any harm if you are healthy and healed.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:41 PM

Jack, read up on AGE, ALE, lipid oxidation and fructose glycation. They basically all tie in together, and I'm just curious about the interplay between the 2 in conjunction...and age production in fructose free or pufa free systems...

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:32 PM

I am very interested to see the scientific reasoning behind this though. Why would the body specifically have a problem with the combination of pufa and fructose eaten together? i know they are 2 of the agents of disease. but i don't understand how eating them simultaneously can have a compound effect.

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:26 PM

Dang... I'm impressed with the depth of this question. And excited about potential answers!

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on March 15, 2011
at 06:37 PM

Very good question here... Well done, Stephen. Looking forward to answers / follow up.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 15, 2011
at 06:27 PM

What is your PUFA upper limit ? Most data I've been able to find about foods that contain a lot (30g+) of sugar indicates that 2g of PUFA is more or less max. Also which sugars ? Just fructose ?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 06:12 PM

HFCs and seed oils are bombs on their own. It's the pufa+sugar=ages that's the question here

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5 Answers

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5
D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

on March 15, 2011
at 07:13 PM

In The Perfect Health Diet, The Jaminets advise against consuming fruit with PUFA. On page 106 "...fructose should not be eaten with PUFA. We therefore recommend eating fruits and berries between meals or with foods that contain little PUFA, such as yogurt or cream." On page 58 "...give sugar, wheat or alcohol in combination with either omega-6 or omega-3 PUFA, and mice develop fatty liver and metabolic syndrome." From my understanding of their diet (I have only read the book once so far) they seem so concerned about it to recommend limiting low fructose fruits to only be consumed on an empty stomach, combined only with saturated fats (cream or coconut) and even go so far as to confine fructose to the first meal of the day.

The studies they use to make their case are listed in the footnotes on pages 147-152

If you don't have access to that book here are a few that might contain the information you are searching for:

http://pmid.us/16366738

http://pmid.us/15343583

http://pmid.us/16969712

Doughnuts anyone??

Edit: added link so that it's not lost in comments: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/07/age-rage-and-ale-ale-of-ldl.html

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:47 PM

And I don't understand how a definitive answer could ever be determined in a human study. So if you are fighting disease, inflammatory conditions or trying to lose weight then it might be best to err on the side of caution and avoid consuming fructose with PUFA. And if it is a concern, what will you be avoiding anyway? Ham cooked with pineapples? Faked baked thingies? BBQd meats with honey sauces? I like to think that it is likely in this case the dose makes the poison and a spoonful of anything won't do any harm if you are healthy and healed.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:32 PM

I am very interested to see the scientific reasoning behind this though. Why would the body specifically have a problem with the combination of pufa and fructose eaten together? i know they are 2 of the agents of disease. but i don't understand how eating them simultaneously can have a compound effect.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:58 PM

thx for the edit

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:44 PM

Dr. William Hay ("Food combining for health"), also recommended that fruit should be eaten alone at breakfast time

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 16, 2011
at 11:18 AM

@Dudley did he detail the why? Fructose for liver only or age production? @texasleah I edited to put your link in your answer, because it's a good read

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:41 PM

Jack, read up on AGE, ALE, lipid oxidation and fructose glycation. They basically all tie in together, and I'm just curious about the interplay between the 2 in conjunction...and age production in fructose free or pufa free systems...

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:08 PM

what about masterjohn's article on RAGEs though? He breaks it down in incredible detail: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/is-receptor-for-ages-rage-really.html

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4101)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:39 PM

"Avoid sugar, PUFA or both. Seems sensible to me." [email protected] Stephen, Check out this post--but there other posts about AGEs (He categorizes them as "AGE RAGE") and he links to studies in most. http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/07/age-rage-and-ale-ale-of-ldl.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:43 PM

my only concern is eating fruit and nuts together or nutbutter and raw honey together. that's about it.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 27, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Chris says that statement is going on the errata page for PHD since they misstated some things

1
B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on March 27, 2011
at 01:31 AM

I'm not well read in the AGEs department so I can't comment on that. But I think there are several things that need to be considered. It's my understanding the the process of making HFCS is a chemical process involving a series of steps using alpha-amylase, glucoamylase, xylose isomerase all which are enzymes hence the "ase".

All the studies I've seen regarding fructose and heavily quoted by the paleo clan cite papers done with HFCS. I think we can agree quite consistently that HFCS is detrimental to your health.

But here's were I'm coming from (bare w/ me): If we look at the process of full hydrogenation we are essentially taking a carbon chain and completely saturating it with hydrogen and so it appears chemically like a long chain fatty acid. This is quite different from partial hydrogenation i.e. industrial trans fats. In fact in rat studies that use fully hydrogenated peanut oil the "manufactured" oil behaves just as we would expect natural saturated fat to work i.e. mitochondrial respiration is restored. However one thing that wasn't taken into account and correct me if I'm wrong but hydrogenation the process itself generates a lot of free radicals, in other words there are some impurities generated as by products of the chemical process, that wouldn't be in natural SF, so my line of thinking is that drinking peanut oil wouldn't be sustainable in the long run even with the initial benefits noted in the study.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that HFCSs could very well be detrimental to health because of manufacturing impurities rather than the fructose itself? And that it's the particular combination of crap in HFCS that makes the poison instead of the individual components?

In my point of view I can say for sure that when I add PUFA into my diet via vegetables along side my ice cream and oranges and various other fruits I feel a distinct change for the worse. But when I leave all but the sweet potatoes out, I can eat all the saturated fats, fruits and sugar I want and can still see the veins on my abs. Bring the vegetables in and like clockwork I start retaining water and gaining weight and can feel my blood sugar elevate. But I can drink a cup of sugared tea and a half a liter of vanilla ice cream and remain normal. In fact I'm so intrigued by this I'm going to order a blood glucose tester and test my levels at different intervals.

So I think PUFA/sugar combination is bad, but just like hydrogenation and the process of turning corn starch into HFCS, I think there is more to it than just the individual components. I think in the end we'll find that fruit or sugar is rather harmless and that it's the rancid plant fat that causes the disruption of thyroid hormones and inhibits your body from being able to do it's job with those things. I think though that eliminating certain groups of food because of an association with another group is irrational, it's like saying your an asshole because you have a friend who did an asshole thing i.e. guilt by association, while there is an association and this brings into question your own reputation I don't think this justifies you as an asshole until you yourself do an asshole thing. If that were the case then we couldn't eat anything because we all know a least one person who is an asshole.

Hope that makes sense.

Thoughtfully,

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on March 27, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Thanks for catching that I meant to put a comma there with a list: vegetables, nuts, fish, chicken, etc.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 27, 2011
at 01:51 AM

"when I add PUFA into my diet via vegetables" - I was wondering what were those vegs that contain that much PUFAs - did you mean veg.oils? or?

A64ed062eb5e2c3407122fcf16c5de6b

(715)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:56 AM

+1 for the thoughtfullness

1
2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:07 PM

Goldin A, Beckman JA, Schmidt AM, Creager MA (2006). "Advanced glycation end products: sparking the development of diabetic vascular injury". Circulation 114 (6): 597???605. doi:106.621854. PMID 16894049

0
0adda19045a3641edac0008364b91110

(1146)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:36 AM

The formation of AGES and it's effects on us have always fascinated me, and I feel they might be a missing piece of the puzzle.

0
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:15 PM

I would be very interested in this IF there is solid evidence shown that supports it. I've seen other threads here discuss the potential dangers of combining foods and even macronutrient groups. Mostly it was agreed that combining things doesn't make a difference.

However, in this case, it's looking at a specific sub macronutrient (pufa) and sugar (not just carbs, like a starchy meal). The main reason I would be interested is because I often eat a slight variation of a certain treat that you handpicked for your question. I like to eat a spoonful of raw sprouted almond butter with a bit of raw honey on there.

And I wouldn't necessarily agree that almonds are 'high' in PUFA, more like 'they contain some'. But they have even more MUFA. Also, I wonder if unheated PUFA would not cause any problems, yet maybe combining a seed oil with sugar might. Because if someone did a study that uses veggie oils and HFCS and concludes that eating PUFA and sugar is an inflammation bomb, I'm callin foul on that.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

PUFA and AGEs are VERY well supported, I'm looking for increased damage with the ingestion of fructose simultaneously.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:53 PM

i know, but isn't it with *oxidized* PUFA? ... this is from Masterjohn's essay on AGE's in butter: *Advanced glycation end products, or AGEs, are rogue chemical reaction products that result from the interactions between sugars or oxidized polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) and proteins.* This is why I asked about heated PUFA vs the PUFA found in raw nuts. The only question is does it immediately oxidize in the body quickly enough to interact with the fructose and/or sugar you ate with it? http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/10/is-butter-high-in-ages.html

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 06:12 PM

HFCs and seed oils are bombs on their own. It's the pufa+sugar=ages that's the question here

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Pufa's breakdown internally too.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on March 15, 2011
at 09:23 PM

It doesn't oxidize as much as when you deep fry it, obviously, but it still oxidizes which is why almost everyone recommends limiting pufa. Our tissues are almost 100 degrees and constantly flooded with oxygen. But, I also wonder how quickly it occurs, and I'm really not sure.

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