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How to raise muscular insulin response without a bunch of sugar

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 04, 2011 at 6:46 PM

How can I or how should I raise my insulin levels PWO to reap the benefits of the insulin spike so as to cause muscle growth without putting on weight? Any thoughts? And what is the best PALEO way to cause such a spike PWO? Also as it relates to insulin spikes from sugar, how much is too much? For instance, lets just say sugar(yes I know sugar is forbidden but everyone knows what it is)...how many grams of sugar would it take to cause a spike?

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 05, 2011
at 12:23 AM

Most plans take the carb total of the food itself minus the fiber content. The Zone and Natural Hormonal Enhancement are two that pop into my head. It allows for a more accurate measurement of carb intake.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 11:17 PM

About the PWO sleepies... I'm starting to get them too now with ~1 lb. of tuber PWO. I never feel depleted from the workout, but rather the meal. It's not nearly as bad as it was when I was SAD, but I don't like what it implies about my blood sugar. I think I'll scale back the PWO carbs soon bit by bit til that sleepiness disappears and see if it has any effect on my performance and energy. 8 oz. seems like so little to cause a crash, but if it's enough for you, it probably is for me... maybe I'll start with 8 oz. and go back from there.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 11:14 PM

I don't know anything at all about MCT intake upsetting serum FFA concentration, but de novo lipogenesis isn't cause by MCTs. MCTs instead promote beta-oxidation of stored fats, converting them into energy and letting your 6-pack shine through. They don't seem to enhance gluconeogenesis, hence your weakened recovery on PWO coconut oil. This does bring to mind though that serum FFA concentration might be lessened due to an upregulation of beta oxidation of fats by MCTs. This would be a simple equilibrium process where the FFAs fill in the gap that consumption of fat fueled by MCTs causes.

Eeb593d6b6d7a939fdd5469b69347d5f

(1037)

on May 04, 2011
at 10:32 PM

Hello Dr. K ... can you elaborate?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 04, 2011
at 10:11 PM

It does this and decreases longevity......you decide what matters more

Medium avatar

(39821)

on May 04, 2011
at 09:22 PM

I always use the actual mass of the carbs present in the food, not the food itself.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 04, 2011
at 09:21 PM

Becker: recently I decided to forgo the starchy carbs post workout as I was instigating extreme hungers pangs and a concomitant crash after the carb PWO(only 8 oz. each workout I did). I decided to switch to VLC with coconut oil as my PWO mainstay but found myself getting pretty sapped. Hence I reverted back to the starchy carbs and it has been an improvement. However, my question for you is about 'de novo lipogenesis' and MCTs: isn't this caused by MCTs? Also: I have heard that MCTs upset FFA balance thereby screwing with energy levels. Know anything abou this?

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 04, 2011
at 08:13 PM

"You should be able to safely consume 150g of starch carbs on a sedentary day and double that on a lifting day." I keep getting confused if these sorts of amounts refer to the total weight of the food or the amount of usable carbs within some larger x grams of the food.

Eeb593d6b6d7a939fdd5469b69347d5f

(1037)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:53 PM

According to Robb Wolf, it "turns on a ton of growth switches." It's a trade-off though, as it contains protease inhibitors.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:18 PM

Dairy does produce a pretty solid insulin spike, but I'm not sure if it does much to restore glycogen. Eating a glut of amino acids with a glut of highly insulinogenic starch seems to me like it would work best for restoring glycogen while fueling muscle recovery, and providing the insulin to move the nutrients. I don't have any evidence to back that up off-hand, though.

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4 Answers

1
Eeb593d6b6d7a939fdd5469b69347d5f

(1037)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:06 PM

I think the best grey-area answer is dairy. Even Robb Wolf does dairy cycles periodically when he's trying to bulk up. Diary promotes muscle growth like crazy.

Check out:
http://robbwolf.com/2011/03/01/the-paleo-solution-episode-69/

Eeb593d6b6d7a939fdd5469b69347d5f

(1037)

on May 04, 2011
at 10:32 PM

Hello Dr. K ... can you elaborate?

Eeb593d6b6d7a939fdd5469b69347d5f

(1037)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:53 PM

According to Robb Wolf, it "turns on a ton of growth switches." It's a trade-off though, as it contains protease inhibitors.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:18 PM

Dairy does produce a pretty solid insulin spike, but I'm not sure if it does much to restore glycogen. Eating a glut of amino acids with a glut of highly insulinogenic starch seems to me like it would work best for restoring glycogen while fueling muscle recovery, and providing the insulin to move the nutrients. I don't have any evidence to back that up off-hand, though.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 04, 2011
at 10:11 PM

It does this and decreases longevity......you decide what matters more

0
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 04, 2011
at 10:13 PM

De novo lipogenesis is a little used pathway except in diets high in fructose......like the SAD. It causes leptin resistance via formation of palmitic acid.

0
Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 07:11 PM

I don't have concrete numbers relating to the insulin spike, but I know that most of the body builders on leangains.com eat about a pound of meat and a pound of starchy carbs PWO. Fitday says that 1 lb. of cooked sweet potato or white potato is about 90-120g absorbed carbs. I've been doing the leangains protocol, eating that volume of carb load 3x/week after workouts and doing normal low-carb Paleo on rest days. In ~6 weeks, I haven't gained any noticeable fat, but I've gained several pounds of muscle (presumably). For me and the leangains people, it seems that that amount of carbs PWO keeps the insulin response fairly low (hence, I have gained little to no fat despite my increased caloric intake while trying to build muscle), but high enough to fuel muscle protein synthesis (hence my gains sans fat) and replenish glycogen (hence my continued gains and high energy level).

EDIT: I should probably add that eating fruit or syrup or other sucrose-y and fructose-y carb sources is counterproductive. Fructose is, essentially, a liver toxin. It mostly feeds into de novo lipogenesis and does nothing to restore glycogen stores -- a fat-creating, recovery-irrelevant double-whammy. Furthermore, fructose doesn't elicit an insulin response and just about 100% of it will enter the liver, much of it going through de novo lipogenesis. On the other hand, only about 20% of the glucose will enter the liver, and it will cause an insulin response that will pump the remaining 80% or so into your other cells, muscles included.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 11:14 PM

I don't know anything at all about MCT intake upsetting serum FFA concentration, but de novo lipogenesis isn't cause by MCTs. MCTs instead promote beta-oxidation of stored fats, converting them into energy and letting your 6-pack shine through. They don't seem to enhance gluconeogenesis, hence your weakened recovery on PWO coconut oil. This does bring to mind though that serum FFA concentration might be lessened due to an upregulation of beta oxidation of fats by MCTs. This would be a simple equilibrium process where the FFAs fill in the gap that consumption of fat fueled by MCTs causes.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on May 04, 2011
at 11:17 PM

About the PWO sleepies... I'm starting to get them too now with ~1 lb. of tuber PWO. I never feel depleted from the workout, but rather the meal. It's not nearly as bad as it was when I was SAD, but I don't like what it implies about my blood sugar. I think I'll scale back the PWO carbs soon bit by bit til that sleepiness disappears and see if it has any effect on my performance and energy. 8 oz. seems like so little to cause a crash, but if it's enough for you, it probably is for me... maybe I'll start with 8 oz. and go back from there.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 04, 2011
at 09:21 PM

Becker: recently I decided to forgo the starchy carbs post workout as I was instigating extreme hungers pangs and a concomitant crash after the carb PWO(only 8 oz. each workout I did). I decided to switch to VLC with coconut oil as my PWO mainstay but found myself getting pretty sapped. Hence I reverted back to the starchy carbs and it has been an improvement. However, my question for you is about 'de novo lipogenesis' and MCTs: isn't this caused by MCTs? Also: I have heard that MCTs upset FFA balance thereby screwing with energy levels. Know anything abou this?

0
Medium avatar

on May 04, 2011
at 07:05 PM

You don't want to use sugar at all because the fructose portion of it doesn't elicit an insulin response and causes metabolic derangement.

If you consume starch in proportion to the amount of glycogen that you deplete with your workouts (and with the normal functioning of your CNS for that matter) you will simply replete those stores and increase the insulin area under the curve.

Potatoes, sweet potatoes and rice are what I use.

You should be able to safely consume 150g of starch carbs on a sedentary day and double that on a lifting day. I started to eat tubers or rice with every meal in substantial quantities and have been losing fat the whole time.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on May 04, 2011
at 09:22 PM

I always use the actual mass of the carbs present in the food, not the food itself.

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 04, 2011
at 08:13 PM

"You should be able to safely consume 150g of starch carbs on a sedentary day and double that on a lifting day." I keep getting confused if these sorts of amounts refer to the total weight of the food or the amount of usable carbs within some larger x grams of the food.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on May 05, 2011
at 12:23 AM

Most plans take the carb total of the food itself minus the fiber content. The Zone and Natural Hormonal Enhancement are two that pop into my head. It allows for a more accurate measurement of carb intake.

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