4

votes

How much of Paleo community problems are self-inflicted?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 08, 2011 at 1:10 AM

Edit: Took out body of question. It was answered by all those who responded. No facts, just anger. No one read one link posted. I'd say there is a good chance that many of the gut issues, autoimmune issues and food allergies were initially caused by those in this communities chronic stress levels. This community is much more inflammatory then most. It's not just the posters, I initially gave examples of how our "leaders" are also quick to anger. This was defended by citing "critical thinkers" but Richard Branson, Warren Buffet or Bill Gates are not this easily riled. I will stay paleo as it of course helps. But I am also going to recognize that stress/being easily riled could have very well been the preceding factor to a slide in health.

"In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches" (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

Stress and Intestinal Hypersensitivity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1592668/

Childhood stress and food allergies: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/111916.php

Stress and Leaky Gut: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11040188

Stress and autoimmune disease: http://www.aarda.org/infocus_article.php?ID=31

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=10604

Stress and hashimoto's disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15650357

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about about Zen Buddhism is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread including the one on critical thinking

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I would delete my original question and just type in what I asked you but I dont want to come across as deceptive...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Not trying to pile on, Geoff, but "Critical thinking is traced to Buddhism"? Really? Before Gauthama, everyone was irrational? And did I miss the God reference? I didn't see anyone refer to God, but maybe I need reading glasses...

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:53 PM

I actually come here because of the civility of the discussions. It is a dying art in my opinion. Having a disagreement on most forums would cause a conversation to either come to a screeching halt or descend into a tirade of personal attacks.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Stabby, thanks for the comment. I think you point out a common falsehood. I don't think I subscribe to it; hence I probably should've been more clear. Apologies. I was just opining that combative folks are probably more prone to high cortisol. (As an aside, at least 2 in my list used to struggle with obesity, and stress may have been a factor.) That said, I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy to live a high stimula life. But, aggressive stimulation seekers (like me) might have to keep closer tabs on their cortisol level, as most on the list recommend. But, on main points we agree, I think.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:48 PM

It is comparable to the carbs thing. If you eat carbs and you are insulin resistant glucose stays chronically elevated and it's a problem. But there is no evidence that post-prandial glucose in those who are healthy is a detriment. However just like stress, when you are insulin resistant it might be a good strategy to spend some time on a low carb diet until it gets sorted out. I like the rest of the post, by the way.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:45 PM

And yet all of those people you mentioned are all really healthy with excellent lab tests. Kruse says his cortisol is perfect, despite being the type of guy to debate people. Like I said, acute stress is well-managed in healthy types. It's nonsense that everyone has to avoid eustress. Indeed there are some who might benefit from the Zen thing because they do have histories of chronic problems, but it isn't everyone, that's for sure.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Eric, in your last paragraph you fall prey to a falsehood I see too often, the notion that eustress, or positive stimulation, is somehow detrimental. Generally you don't get pathology from the regular and proper functioning of an organism, you get it when biological mechanisms spiral out of control and you get chronically elevated hormones like cortisol, not acutely elevated when it is appropriate. Exercise raises cortisol while you do it but it's not detrimental. It seems that some want everyone to shut themselves into a little stoical box to avoid any sort of stress at all lest they suffer

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:20 PM

Thanks for the compliment Jack :)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:55 PM

I always love seeing your posts Eric. You always come at things with a level head a balanced perspective. A combination I really respect.

67460907f9d818f56e1ef4c846317386

(504)

on August 08, 2011
at 06:27 PM

Abso-fricken-lutely! I have the same rule, since I eat at home most of the time it is more like 90/10 though. If I eat something good when I eat out it also tends to keep any cumulative cravings down as well. As a side effect I don't have to constantly explain my lifestyle. While I'm proud of my ancestral eating habits, constantly explaining it is exhaustive, I'm not a salesmen.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on August 08, 2011
at 06:07 PM

Wow, if you think this place has anger management problems, don't ever go near a political board...or a vegan board....or even a knitting board.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:58 PM

Considering that you only got six answers, you really don't have a large enough sample to conclude that your question is answered or rendered irrelevant by the responses.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:38 PM

I mean, I'm not even sure what you are asking, actually.

C33e8c236e72d67c4b6c028401d23cce

(1884)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:05 AM

Geoff, please take a deep breath, clear your mind of any assumptions, and then read my words again. Then repeat back to me everything I said aboud Zen Buddhism. Then ask yourself who is being argumentative.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:15 AM

@Stabby, I agree.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:12 AM

@Rose, I agree with you and that is why I am strict Paleo and do not intend to stop. However, the fact that people can learn to change their perception through meditation or just life experience shows that conscious effort can change your mind's reaction to perceived danger. And if you google chronic stress most of the reasons listed..job, relationships, financial, etc all really come down to how one is perceiving that situation. @ Jane, thanks...I should have worded it differently though :-)

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:10 AM

@Rose, I agree with you and that is why I am strict Paleo and do not intend to stop. However, the fact that people can learn to change their perception through meditation or just life experience shows that conscious effort can change your mind's reaction to perceived danger. @ Jane, thnxs...I should have worded it differently though :-)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:59 AM

I get your position, I just think the causality is the other way, and actually it's a bit of a vicious cycle. Indeed I bet if you play the Oatmeal is good for your heart song at Eades he'll be riled, but my stance would be that he can manage it quite well and it isn't a problem for him, whereas someone whose emotions are dysregulated it is a problem and they might do with a good stay in the Zen camp. Resiliency is key here, and I don't think we're built to have our resiliency go out the window just because stuff happens to the mind. Some are better than others, but healthy people are resilient

584b19d2b6cebc7cdf070b5f8a5a7937

(369)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:57 AM

+1 for having the balls to ask this question.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:56 AM

Yes, but *what causes the difference in perception?* Why does one mind see danger while the other sees opportunity? I certainly do think nutritional challenges could be part of the more *ultimate*, or further back, rather than *proximate*, or nearby, explanations. Assuming your premise, that is, which I'm not sure I share.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:53 AM

@Rose, the mind tells the body if the event is dangerous or not. One person sees a dog and is scared/brain tells body to release cortisol/adrenaline. Another person sees same dog as sees a fluffy pet to play with. One person is laid off and mind sees danger of poverty and releases stress hormones. Another sees it as an exciting opportunity to see what else is out there. Once person is stuck at airport and begins to worry. Another takes it as an excellent opportunity to catch up on work and/or relax. Once again, all perception

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:53 AM

@Rose, the mind tells the body if the event in dangerous or not. One person sees a dog and is scared/brain tells body to release cortisol/adrenaline. Another person sees same dog as sees a fluffy pet to play with. One person is laid off and mind sees danger of poverty and releases stress hormones. Another sees it as an exciting opportunity to see what else is out there. Once person is stuck at airport and begins to worry. Another takes it as an excellent opportunity to catch up on work and/or relax. Once again, all perception

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:47 AM

But what causes the mind to perceive danger? Why do some minds "perceive danger" when others don't? It seems to me, Geoff, that you're going for the *proximal* answer, and Stabby's going for a more *ultimate* one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_and_ultimate_causation

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:47 AM

Okay, I mean gut issues/allergies/autoimmune issues. I respect this community and especially you Dr. I agree with you about obesity. Do you feel that the gov studies listed in the question could be accurate? That chronic stress could be the cause of many of the issues we on p-hacks are now trying to address?

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:44 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and typing at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:43 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and trying at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:43 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and trying at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:40 AM

I don't need a primer by the mayo clinic or webmed on psychology. No sir. Look I think that your Zen stuff can be a valuable tool, I just disagree about the root cause. Aight?

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:38 AM

I know that stress can exacerbate leaky gut, that's not the issue. The issue is what causes that chronic stress in the first place. How it progresses from a normal biological function to something that drastically hinders the health of the organism. I know that magnesium does not cause me to jump and secrete cortisol when they dog tries to bite me, but the breakdown in the regulatory mechanisms is what allows an acute stress like Mike Eades reading a lipophobe in the paper to a chronic stress, like someone with a serious disorder. We are supposed to be more resilient than that.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:38 AM

I know that stress can exacerbate leaky gut, that's not the issue. The issue is what causes that chronic stress in the first place. How it progresses from a normal biological function to something that drastically hinders the health of the organism. I know that magnesium does not cause me to jump and secrete cortisol when they dog tries to bite me, but the breakdown in the regulatory mechanisms is what allows an acute stress like Mike Eades reading a hipophobe in the paper to a chronic stress, like someone with a serious disorder. We are supposed to be more resilient than that.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:35 AM

The notion that the mind is the cause of what happens in the brain is demonstrably false. Mind is product of brain, and brain messes up first. You don't get the mind messing up unless there are problems with the brain. Humans are indeed designed to cope with terrible losses, fights with wild animals and each other and all sorts of hardchips, they just need their nuts and bolts and nice and tidy.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:35 AM

Stabby, are you Mike Eades? haha I agree with you that deficiencies can cause stress but so can perceived danger. Perceived danger is caused by the mind. Anything from a lion to traffic to someone you disagree with on paleohacks sends "danger" signals from your mind and releases cortisol, adrenaline, etc... Here's a nice primer. Notice that all these "dangers" are perceived so by the mind. Other, more relaxed people would react differently. The stress management tech do include diet but the mind is also addressed http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress/SR00001

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:33 AM

Your argument seems to be hinging upon acute stress necessarily following from chronic stress, in actual fact the magnesium is what prevents an acute stress (dog comes to bite me, happened when I was a kid, I was fine an hour later) from turning into chronic stress. Or many things that could cause acute stresses being a burden all day. Now it makes sense, without the proper nutrition and momentary "Oh no" with a little tiny bit of cortisol turns into a big rager. Anyway we both seems to disagree vehemently so I motion to call it quits and let people decide for themselves.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:30 AM

That is the old view. Notice not a single citation. Is has been trendy to say that stress is caused by some entity called the mind, but the mind is the product of the brain and the brain works just fine if it isn't dysfunctional. Look, quoting webmd for chronic stress is like quoting them for anything else, heart disease, etc.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:27 AM

"but bro, not one single link suggests that chronic stress is mainly caused by the mind. That is an outdated take on psychology," Every link on stress says otherwise http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=53735 http://www.medicinenet.com/stress/article.htm These are all related to how one interprets/reacts to a situation http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/stress-management-causes-of-stress

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Maybe I should have worded differently. Since no one read any links I posted or provided any real comments on the subject...just defensive reaction I think my question was answered anyways.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:15 AM

The link you provided did not back up your argument. Mg is only a regulator of stress. I posted an actual study which cites this. Lack does not cause the stress in the first place, it just makes stress harder to deal with.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:13 AM

Lack of magnesium can make stress *worse,* it is not the source of the chronic stress. Magnesium essentially helps control/regulate stress but stress itself can cause Leaky Gut, food sensitivities and autoimmune disorder. See my links above and this link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7836621 "Thus, stress, whether physical (i.e. exertion, heat, cold, trauma--accidental or surgical, burns), or emotional (i.e. pain, anxiety, excitement or depression) and dyspnea as in asthma increases need for Mg" i.e Mg is needed during times of stress, lack is not the casue

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:09 AM

Taken another way my position would take the "stress causes chronic allergies" link and say "some of the same things that chronic allergies are caused by also cause chronic stress, and chronic stress exacerbates chronic allergies as well" it's all a vicious cycle. I hope I do get across that simply being contentious like Mike Eades is, does not mean that one is suffering from chronic stress, since it is likely not caused by the mind but a breakdown in circuitry.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:06 AM

But you haven't addressed any of them. I did post a link for you, since this appears to be a link-posting party and not a debate. Didn't I agree that chronic stress was bad, but bro, not one single link suggests that chronic stress is mainly caused by the mind. That is an outdated take on psychology, we now know that the mind is not the originator of emotion but the emotion is to correspond with the consciousness. Again, the question is what causes chronic stress, not whether it is bad or not.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:02 AM

If you want references here is one for magnesium and substance p overload. The whole population is very deficient and it is needed to curtail the cascade http://www.wellnessresources.com/health/articles/magnesium_is_essential_for_preventing_substance_p_overload/

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:00 AM

Stabby, 1) I am not preaching anything. 2) I have provided numerous links to back up my assertion, you have provided none. 3) chronic stress can be caused by the mind, this is exactly what I and the numerous links I provided are speaking to. 4) If you are really a top poster on this website it makes me question the entire system. 5) You must have come to Paleo as your health was poor at one point. Your rants are essentially arguing my point.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:00 AM

Dude you didn't address one thing I said, you just posted links showing elevated cortisol is bad. I agree, and I did say that getting to the point where stress is acute and not chronic is a good path, but I am questioning the method and also the pathogenesis. Why do people have elevated cortisol in the first place when we are built to be so resilient? I suggest deficiencies. And the main point was that it is quite not all-right to insinuate that people need to stop debating and being contentious. Mike Eades is quite healthy and happy, so are many who utilize eustress, big dif.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:53 AM

And I really think that you need to practice what you preach. I try to be informative and funny and now you're raging at me. You gotta admit that the Mike Eades thing was dead wrong, I mean he is a perfect example of a healthy guy who likes to debated. By your ideology Richard Dawkins should be dead, but he is 80 and healthy, despite constantly taking on the religious and his scientific peers in debate. Come on now.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:51 AM

stress is an exacerbator, meaning that it makes problems worse, but to say that stress is the source and that guys like Mike Eades can't handle their stuff is inaccurate. Stimulation or "eustress" as opposed to "distress", big difference and it would be good if the Zen crowd would acknowledge the existence of the former. Interesting how Zen was founded in a fat-deficient culture.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:51 AM

A few things for the amazing Zen genius to look into for an understanding of how things work. 1. The psychological phenomenon of stimulation, as opposed to stress (goes best with humor). 2. The distinction between acute and chronic stress. 3. The general path of pathology. There has to be a reason why there is chronic stress in the first place, it doesn't just magic itself out of nowhere, it isn't just the produce of our "stressful modern lives", there needs to be some sort of malfunction first, or else we're quite resilient. They do this with nutrition and soldiers, it's great. Like I said,

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:49 AM

Hey Stabby, why dont you try reading for once? What is my argument? Why did I post links defending this argument? Where are your counter links? The basic premise is stress can compromise health and cause food allergies and autoimmune issues. You done nothing but make hateful comments, spewed false information and frankly outed yourself as a probably racist .."your kind." Literally everything youve said has been wrong. Literally everything Ive stated Ive provided links for. Grow up

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:36 AM

It is called debating. Now you're just pure ad hominem like your kind. If you don't have an argument, insinuate that the other person is deranged, suuuuuuuuuure man. Honestly do you guys have a playbook that says if someone challenges your dogma to insinuated that there is something wrong with them (which of course could be solved by submitting to your dogma!), sheeeeesh.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:20 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about about Zen Buddhism is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:19 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about said is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:12 AM

So in your case the mind does indeed effect the body. I have found the same to be true in my case. The links I updated state that stress can cause the food sensitivities in the first place. I wouldnt be surprised if that wasnt at least the case for myself

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:07 AM

Wow Stabby, Ive never seen someone so stressed out over the assertion that stress could possibly cause problems. I feel like your are actually arguing in favor of my hypothesis. You obviously didnt have flawless health or else you would have never sought out Paleo. Is it even slightly possible that stress could have been a contributing factor in your once poor health?

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:05 AM

I am not advocating Zen or Buddhism, I could care less how one learns to not stress out. But the attacks here border on religious extremism...i.e attacking something because you actually know nothing about it. Zen doesnt believe in a God. There is no one to punish you or reward you. There is only cause and effect. Hence there is only critical thinking.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:01 AM

Can you please give me some citations? Can you please start with your assertion that A2 dairy effects gluten sensitivity? Can you then follow up with a citation that Zen "is about hating on others who dont see things your way?" All I see on your end is support for my original hypothesis.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:58 AM

See according to you guys, Dr. Eades, who you cited, should be in the grave, because he cares deeply about contentious ideas. But no, he is healthy, looks healthy, and keeps a level head while being highly effective, likely due to his good diet. His brain is well taken care of so what Zen is so vehemently against is actually a highly positive thing for him. Same with a lot of people, those who advocate that we avoid all potentially stressful situations don't understand how we are built. But we do need to be built well, there's the rube.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:52 AM

maladies if it is in the context of a properly functioning nervous system, enabled by a good diet. Many assumptions here. Like I said, check that confirmation bias. You are suffering from ideology and it obscures your vision.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:52 AM

One, don't insinuate that I am "being defensive" that is inane and pointless. Zen is about hating on others who don't see things your way too, although they don't admit it. Our ancestors worried a lot about the future and paying attention to the future is a habit of successful people. The sin comment was not meant to be taken literally, get a sense of humor. "Stress-related" doesn't mean anything but, like it says "related", but this doesn't mean that it is the dominant factor or even that stress is the cause by rather an effect or exacerbater or even that being animated causes significant

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Critical thinking is traced to Buddhism. Once again not what I was talking about. I will update my post to include a blurb on stress. "The origins of critical thinking can be traced in Western thought to the Socratic method of Ancient Greece and in the East, to the Buddhist Abhidharma." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:09 AM

To continue the discussion I found the following interesting..."In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches" (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Okay, so Stabby is being defensive. Zen is about controlling the mind and being in the present moment. What could be more inline with our past then that? Our ancestors didnt worry about the future or past, they dealt with what was at hand. Stabby tried to distract the conversation with strawman such as "sin" but the discussion is about the impact of stress and Zen doesnt even believe in good or evil, or even a God/creator...there is only suffering or not suffering

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Okay, so Stabby is being defensive. Zen is about controlling the mind and being in the present moment. What could be more inline with our past then that? Our ancestors didnt worry about the future or past, they dealt with what was at hand. Stabby tried to distract the conversation with strawman such as "sin" but the discussion is about the impact of stress and Zen doesnt even believe in good or evil, or even a God/creator...there is only suffering or not suffering. To continue the discussion I found this supportive piece interesting..n addition, medical research estimates as much as....

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:01 AM

"In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches". - (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:00 AM

In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches. - (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:58 AM

Man, and in regards to your "grapple a lion and then lake love," that has literally nothing to do with Zen. Zen is about being present in the moment. What could be more Paleo then being in the present moment? It is the only moment that animals know. Hunter gatherers didnt spend time stressing about past or future. They were in the present. The Healthy Skeptic, Chris Kresser wrote and article to this effect and advocated Zen for health. Im not here to preach as I could care less how one chooses to relax

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:56 AM

Man, and in regards to your "grapple a lion and then lake love," that has literally nothing to do with Zen. Zen is about being present in the moment. What could be more Paleo then being in the present moment? It is the only moment that animals know. Hunter gatherers didnt spend time stressing about past or future. They were in the present. The Healthy Skeptic, Chris Kresser wrote and article to this effect and advocated Zen for health.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I am not advocating Zen either. If you want to achieve a more calm mind through nature, or even smoking weed I could care less. I didnt ask the question to preach. You are a perfect example of the argumentative nature I was speaking of (like I said, I admit that I am too).

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:47 AM

What are you talking about? I am speaking to the large amount of cortisol you are dumping into your body not being animated. Robb has said on other trips, not just Italy that he handles gluten better. He specifically cited lower stress. A2 dairy has nothing to do with him tolerating gluten better. Sin has nothing to do with what we are trying to get at either. The discussion is high cortisol vs low cortisol. You obviously know literally nothing about Zen because there is no such thing as good or evil, sin, or even God. I am speaking about (and so is Zen) controlling the mind.

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8 Answers

8
77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:43 PM

I read the original question and thought it was good.

The responses would have been more positive had you had framed it differently. For example, it touches on some important issues that Chris Kesser discussed with Kurt Harris over a podcast. Basically, they noted that folks in the paleo community (a) tend to assume that everything bad that happens to them - e.g., diarrhea - is diet-related, and this just isn't always obviously the case, and further that (b) we tend to overlook the role that things like stress and mindfulness play in healthy outcomes and body composition. Kresser mentioned a patient who couldn't get better even on high quality elimination diets like GAPS, but then started eating pizza and beer once a week and that did it, which entails that his problem was to some extent psychological.

You are right to observe that there are many people who thrive on high-carb SAD diets. And its not absurd to make an anecdotal observation that many of them are laid back. After all, it makes sense that people who can handle processed carbs are more likely to not suffer from cortisol or gluten sensitivity problems.

I am open to the possibility that the case for paleo eating is much stronger for a subset of the population than it is for everyone. I don't believe this - i.e., I think it's best for everyone - but the idea certainly isn't crazy.

Lastly, you really did hit on something interesting: Folks like Harris, McEwen, Wolf, and Kruse are kind of aggressive and contentious. And we Paleohackers - myself included - tend to like that sort of spirited combativeness. So it makes sense that we might be more inclined to suffer from stress and cortisol issues relative to the broader population.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:55 PM

I always love seeing your posts Eric. You always come at things with a level head a balanced perspective. A combination I really respect.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:45 PM

And yet all of those people you mentioned are all really healthy with excellent lab tests. Kruse says his cortisol is perfect, despite being the type of guy to debate people. Like I said, acute stress is well-managed in healthy types. It's nonsense that everyone has to avoid eustress. Indeed there are some who might benefit from the Zen thing because they do have histories of chronic problems, but it isn't everyone, that's for sure.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Stabby, thanks for the comment. I think you point out a common falsehood. I don't think I subscribe to it; hence I probably should've been more clear. Apologies. I was just opining that combative folks are probably more prone to high cortisol. (As an aside, at least 2 in my list used to struggle with obesity, and stress may have been a factor.) That said, I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy to live a high stimula life. But, aggressive stimulation seekers (like me) might have to keep closer tabs on their cortisol level, as most on the list recommend. But, on main points we agree, I think.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Eric, in your last paragraph you fall prey to a falsehood I see too often, the notion that eustress, or positive stimulation, is somehow detrimental. Generally you don't get pathology from the regular and proper functioning of an organism, you get it when biological mechanisms spiral out of control and you get chronically elevated hormones like cortisol, not acutely elevated when it is appropriate. Exercise raises cortisol while you do it but it's not detrimental. It seems that some want everyone to shut themselves into a little stoical box to avoid any sort of stress at all lest they suffer

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:20 PM

Thanks for the compliment Jack :)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:48 PM

It is comparable to the carbs thing. If you eat carbs and you are insulin resistant glucose stays chronically elevated and it's a problem. But there is no evidence that post-prandial glucose in those who are healthy is a detriment. However just like stress, when you are insulin resistant it might be a good strategy to spend some time on a low carb diet until it gets sorted out. I like the rest of the post, by the way.

7
C33e8c236e72d67c4b6c028401d23cce

(1884)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:41 AM

People with strong critical thinking skills tend to use those skills a lot. It's a feature, not a bug.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:05 AM

I am not advocating Zen or Buddhism, I could care less how one learns to not stress out. But the attacks here border on religious extremism...i.e attacking something because you actually know nothing about it. Zen doesnt believe in a God. There is no one to punish you or reward you. There is only cause and effect. Hence there is only critical thinking.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:20 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about about Zen Buddhism is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:19 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about said is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Stabby referred to sin. The reason I provided the link (the only links/evidence in the whole discussion) was just to defend against the extreme hate coming from the posters. Literally 100% of everything Stabby and Lareth said about about Zen Buddhism is incorrect. I am not even a Buddhist. I am actually an atheist. My whole freakin point is argumentative people may have induced their own food sensitivities through self induced stress. Read the multiple links I posted in this thread including the one on critical thinking

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Not trying to pile on, Geoff, but "Critical thinking is traced to Buddhism"? Really? Before Gauthama, everyone was irrational? And did I miss the God reference? I didn't see anyone refer to God, but maybe I need reading glasses...

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Critical thinking is traced to Buddhism. Once again not what I was talking about. I will update my post to include a blurb on stress. "The origins of critical thinking can be traced in Western thought to the Socratic method of Ancient Greece and in the East, to the Buddhist Abhidharma." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

C33e8c236e72d67c4b6c028401d23cce

(1884)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:05 AM

Geoff, please take a deep breath, clear your mind of any assumptions, and then read my words again. Then repeat back to me everything I said aboud Zen Buddhism. Then ask yourself who is being argumentative.

3
Acc38052c1efe7fc4338dc55f2428bfe

(242)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:58 AM

I find it hilarious that you're approaching Zen as a means to judge an entire diverse group of people. Keep walking that high road...

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Maybe I should have worded differently. Since no one read any links I posted or provided any real comments on the subject...just defensive reaction I think my question was answered anyways.

3
B2f2a025c9901b31af3853d1336d5307

on August 08, 2011
at 01:28 AM

the only times non-paleo foods make me feel like crap is when I anticipate feeling like crap. If I'm just having fun and consciously decide not to feel guilty or think about it- it rarely affects me. Only affect I may feel is from too much sugar- I get a little hyped up and crash later, but that's about it. I'm pretty much at an 80/20 point.. I'm done trying to achieve 100% and I'm done telling myself if I eat a cupcake at a party I'll get cancer. My rule is- paleo only foods in the house.. but when I'm out, it's fair game :D

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:12 AM

So in your case the mind does indeed effect the body. I have found the same to be true in my case. The links I updated state that stress can cause the food sensitivities in the first place. I wouldnt be surprised if that wasnt at least the case for myself

67460907f9d818f56e1ef4c846317386

(504)

on August 08, 2011
at 06:27 PM

Abso-fricken-lutely! I have the same rule, since I eat at home most of the time it is more like 90/10 though. If I eat something good when I eat out it also tends to keep any cumulative cravings down as well. As a side effect I don't have to constantly explain my lifestyle. While I'm proud of my ancestral eating habits, constantly explaining it is exhaustive, I'm not a salesmen.

2
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:31 AM

You said, "I am speaking about the ones who came to Paleo to cure health problems, not those who came to it to slim down or look better"

Dude this edit is huge oxymoron......obesity is a health problem. In fact, it is the biggest health problem in the USA.

Sorry man......but that just does not cut it for me.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:47 AM

Okay, I mean gut issues/allergies/autoimmune issues. I respect this community and especially you Dr. I agree with you about obesity. Do you feel that the gov studies listed in the question could be accurate? That chronic stress could be the cause of many of the issues we on p-hacks are now trying to address?

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I would delete my original question and just type in what I asked you but I dont want to come across as deceptive...

2
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:40 AM

Cause and effect and effect, brosky. How do you know that it is not people who are messed up from a poor lifestyle who become like that in most cases? Poor health from a poor diet tends to dysregulate hormonal and neurotransmitter systems after all. It's mostly inflammation and nutrient-deficiency and then often drugs or supreme stress are the catalyst. Dr. Eades is very healthy, so right there that doesn't support your hypothesis. Robb Wolf is severely gluten intolerant and it doesn't matter what he's doing, it still destroys him. He did mention dairy in Italy not being so bad, but attributed it to being good quality A2 dairy. Your noticing that "less intense" people tend to thrive on less strict diets is a vague statement and likely suffers from confirmation bias.

You know (and this means you too Zen whoever) there are quite a lot of people who are very healthy and very contentious, it is called passion and I know it's a sin that's just tearing us apart but it is also a lot of fun and a positive thing for many people. We are actually built in such a way to let us grapple with a lion and make love an hour later. It is usually when the normal functioning of the nervous system disintegrates that we can't do that any more.

Now for the second effect part of cause and effect and effect, it usually is that being all "raaawwwr I'ma kill you" in those who aren't psychologically all-right actually exacerbates it further. I just question whether they need Zen dudes or mag/glycine/gaba and a good diet. Maybe both would be the better ticket. It is probably unreasonable to expect most people find a solution that makes it so they can't be the least bit animated and contentious for the rest of their life.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:06 AM

But you haven't addressed any of them. I did post a link for you, since this appears to be a link-posting party and not a debate. Didn't I agree that chronic stress was bad, but bro, not one single link suggests that chronic stress is mainly caused by the mind. That is an outdated take on psychology, we now know that the mind is not the originator of emotion but the emotion is to correspond with the consciousness. Again, the question is what causes chronic stress, not whether it is bad or not.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I am not advocating Zen either. If you want to achieve a more calm mind through nature, or even smoking weed I could care less. I didnt ask the question to preach. You are a perfect example of the argumentative nature I was speaking of (like I said, I admit that I am too).

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Okay, so Stabby is being defensive. Zen is about controlling the mind and being in the present moment. What could be more inline with our past then that? Our ancestors didnt worry about the future or past, they dealt with what was at hand. Stabby tried to distract the conversation with strawman such as "sin" but the discussion is about the impact of stress and Zen doesnt even believe in good or evil, or even a God/creator...there is only suffering or not suffering. To continue the discussion I found this supportive piece interesting..n addition, medical research estimates as much as....

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:01 AM

"In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches". - (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:58 AM

See according to you guys, Dr. Eades, who you cited, should be in the grave, because he cares deeply about contentious ideas. But no, he is healthy, looks healthy, and keeps a level head while being highly effective, likely due to his good diet. His brain is well taken care of so what Zen is so vehemently against is actually a highly positive thing for him. Same with a lot of people, those who advocate that we avoid all potentially stressful situations don't understand how we are built. But we do need to be built well, there's the rube.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:15 AM

The link you provided did not back up your argument. Mg is only a regulator of stress. I posted an actual study which cites this. Lack does not cause the stress in the first place, it just makes stress harder to deal with.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:09 AM

To continue the discussion I found the following interesting..."In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches" (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:52 AM

One, don't insinuate that I am "being defensive" that is inane and pointless. Zen is about hating on others who don't see things your way too, although they don't admit it. Our ancestors worried a lot about the future and paying attention to the future is a habit of successful people. The sin comment was not meant to be taken literally, get a sense of humor. "Stress-related" doesn't mean anything but, like it says "related", but this doesn't mean that it is the dominant factor or even that stress is the cause by rather an effect or exacerbater or even that being animated causes significant

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:09 AM

Taken another way my position would take the "stress causes chronic allergies" link and say "some of the same things that chronic allergies are caused by also cause chronic stress, and chronic stress exacerbates chronic allergies as well" it's all a vicious cycle. I hope I do get across that simply being contentious like Mike Eades is, does not mean that one is suffering from chronic stress, since it is likely not caused by the mind but a breakdown in circuitry.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:52 AM

maladies if it is in the context of a properly functioning nervous system, enabled by a good diet. Many assumptions here. Like I said, check that confirmation bias. You are suffering from ideology and it obscures your vision.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:51 AM

A few things for the amazing Zen genius to look into for an understanding of how things work. 1. The psychological phenomenon of stimulation, as opposed to stress (goes best with humor). 2. The distinction between acute and chronic stress. 3. The general path of pathology. There has to be a reason why there is chronic stress in the first place, it doesn't just magic itself out of nowhere, it isn't just the produce of our "stressful modern lives", there needs to be some sort of malfunction first, or else we're quite resilient. They do this with nutrition and soldiers, it's great. Like I said,

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:43 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and trying at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:33 AM

Your argument seems to be hinging upon acute stress necessarily following from chronic stress, in actual fact the magnesium is what prevents an acute stress (dog comes to bite me, happened when I was a kid, I was fine an hour later) from turning into chronic stress. Or many things that could cause acute stresses being a burden all day. Now it makes sense, without the proper nutrition and momentary "Oh no" with a little tiny bit of cortisol turns into a big rager. Anyway we both seems to disagree vehemently so I motion to call it quits and let people decide for themselves.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:58 AM

Man, and in regards to your "grapple a lion and then lake love," that has literally nothing to do with Zen. Zen is about being present in the moment. What could be more Paleo then being in the present moment? It is the only moment that animals know. Hunter gatherers didnt spend time stressing about past or future. They were in the present. The Healthy Skeptic, Chris Kresser wrote and article to this effect and advocated Zen for health. Im not here to preach as I could care less how one chooses to relax

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Okay, so Stabby is being defensive. Zen is about controlling the mind and being in the present moment. What could be more inline with our past then that? Our ancestors didnt worry about the future or past, they dealt with what was at hand. Stabby tried to distract the conversation with strawman such as "sin" but the discussion is about the impact of stress and Zen doesnt even believe in good or evil, or even a God/creator...there is only suffering or not suffering

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:49 AM

Hey Stabby, why dont you try reading for once? What is my argument? Why did I post links defending this argument? Where are your counter links? The basic premise is stress can compromise health and cause food allergies and autoimmune issues. You done nothing but make hateful comments, spewed false information and frankly outed yourself as a probably racist .."your kind." Literally everything youve said has been wrong. Literally everything Ive stated Ive provided links for. Grow up

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:27 AM

"but bro, not one single link suggests that chronic stress is mainly caused by the mind. That is an outdated take on psychology," Every link on stress says otherwise http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=53735 http://www.medicinenet.com/stress/article.htm These are all related to how one interprets/reacts to a situation http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/stress-management-causes-of-stress

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:07 AM

Wow Stabby, Ive never seen someone so stressed out over the assertion that stress could possibly cause problems. I feel like your are actually arguing in favor of my hypothesis. You obviously didnt have flawless health or else you would have never sought out Paleo. Is it even slightly possible that stress could have been a contributing factor in your once poor health?

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:43 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and trying at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:47 AM

What are you talking about? I am speaking to the large amount of cortisol you are dumping into your body not being animated. Robb has said on other trips, not just Italy that he handles gluten better. He specifically cited lower stress. A2 dairy has nothing to do with him tolerating gluten better. Sin has nothing to do with what we are trying to get at either. The discussion is high cortisol vs low cortisol. You obviously know literally nothing about Zen because there is no such thing as good or evil, sin, or even God. I am speaking about (and so is Zen) controlling the mind.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:53 AM

And I really think that you need to practice what you preach. I try to be informative and funny and now you're raging at me. You gotta admit that the Mike Eades thing was dead wrong, I mean he is a perfect example of a healthy guy who likes to debated. By your ideology Richard Dawkins should be dead, but he is 80 and healthy, despite constantly taking on the religious and his scientific peers in debate. Come on now.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:30 AM

That is the old view. Notice not a single citation. Is has been trendy to say that stress is caused by some entity called the mind, but the mind is the product of the brain and the brain works just fine if it isn't dysfunctional. Look, quoting webmd for chronic stress is like quoting them for anything else, heart disease, etc.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 02:00 AM

In addition, medical research estimates as much as 90 percent of illness and disease is stress-related. Stress can interfere with your physical functioning and bodily processes. High blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and heart disease have been linked to stress factors. Other stress-related ailments include ulcers, allergies, asthma, and migraine headaches. - (Source: U.S. Center for Disease Control)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:36 AM

It is called debating. Now you're just pure ad hominem like your kind. If you don't have an argument, insinuate that the other person is deranged, suuuuuuuuuure man. Honestly do you guys have a playbook that says if someone challenges your dogma to insinuated that there is something wrong with them (which of course could be solved by submitting to your dogma!), sheeeeesh.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:56 AM

Man, and in regards to your "grapple a lion and then lake love," that has literally nothing to do with Zen. Zen is about being present in the moment. What could be more Paleo then being in the present moment? It is the only moment that animals know. Hunter gatherers didnt spend time stressing about past or future. They were in the present. The Healthy Skeptic, Chris Kresser wrote and article to this effect and advocated Zen for health.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:15 AM

@Stabby, I agree.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:01 AM

Can you please give me some citations? Can you please start with your assertion that A2 dairy effects gluten sensitivity? Can you then follow up with a citation that Zen "is about hating on others who dont see things your way?" All I see on your end is support for my original hypothesis.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:35 AM

The notion that the mind is the cause of what happens in the brain is demonstrably false. Mind is product of brain, and brain messes up first. You don't get the mind messing up unless there are problems with the brain. Humans are indeed designed to cope with terrible losses, fights with wild animals and each other and all sorts of hardchips, they just need their nuts and bolts and nice and tidy.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:59 AM

I get your position, I just think the causality is the other way, and actually it's a bit of a vicious cycle. Indeed I bet if you play the Oatmeal is good for your heart song at Eades he'll be riled, but my stance would be that he can manage it quite well and it isn't a problem for him, whereas someone whose emotions are dysregulated it is a problem and they might do with a good stay in the Zen camp. Resiliency is key here, and I don't think we're built to have our resiliency go out the window just because stuff happens to the mind. Some are better than others, but healthy people are resilient

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 03:51 AM

stress is an exacerbator, meaning that it makes problems worse, but to say that stress is the source and that guys like Mike Eades can't handle their stuff is inaccurate. Stimulation or "eustress" as opposed to "distress", big difference and it would be good if the Zen crowd would acknowledge the existence of the former. Interesting how Zen was founded in a fat-deficient culture.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:00 AM

Stabby, 1) I am not preaching anything. 2) I have provided numerous links to back up my assertion, you have provided none. 3) chronic stress can be caused by the mind, this is exactly what I and the numerous links I provided are speaking to. 4) If you are really a top poster on this website it makes me question the entire system. 5) You must have come to Paleo as your health was poor at one point. Your rants are essentially arguing my point.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on August 08, 2011
at 04:44 AM

I never said nutrition isnt important.I will also admit that I didnt format my question coherently as I was thinking it through and typing at the same time. I just think its interesting that 1) so many of us are argumentative in this community (myself included) 2) many of us came to this community because of food/gut/autoimmune issues, 3) food/gut/autoimmune issues can be caused by stress in the 1st place.I should not have mentioned Dr Eades or Robb.Both are awesome & have helped a lot of people.I was just trying to show ex of how even our "leaders" are like us on p-hacks..on edge/easy to rile

1
1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on August 08, 2011
at 01:18 PM

I think that there are two approaches, once can be anxious about what one eats and that may be a problem. On the other hand regulating your diet is a classic way to practice the discipline of self-control, you find it across cultures and religious traditions. The way I have had it explained to me self-discipline is a form of mindfulness meditation about making choices.

I prefer to think of it as a discipline. I fail often but in trying to eat things that are closer to the chain of life and in more natural forms I wish to draw myself closer to the net and embrace of the natural world.

Of course I am one of those overweight practitioners. I hope that one day I will lean better where enough is and regulate myself better, but I am not seeing weight loss alone as a goal and it isn't where I want to focus. I want to love my body in to growth, not discipline it in to change.

0
559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:35 PM

I think the issue with your question is that the wording is contentious. ---> "self-inflicted'. As if there is blame to be placed. If this question would have been framed differently, you may have received some less bristling responses (esp re the original question w/ the Zen reference).

also, those links are great, thanks.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on August 08, 2011
at 05:38 PM

I mean, I'm not even sure what you are asking, actually.

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