2

votes

Anti oxidants and its effects on training

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 21, 2011 at 4:06 AM

At the NIH (Norges Idrettshoegskole, freely translated to "Norwegian College of Sports" or something) fitness convention this week, there was a presentation about anti oxidants and the effect it had on strength training. The subjects were given 1000mg of vitamin C and 400mg of vitamin E pre-workout, and one group received placebo.

A study reported the subjects receiving the anti oxidants had less response to resistance training and a decline in max strength compared to the group receiving placebo. Previous studies show the same results for endurance training. The reason is believed to be the muscle relaxing effects/non-flammatory the anti oxidants has on muscular tissue, so therefore my question goes as following:

Can the timing of the anti oxidant intake be of any significance? As far as I've understood, the vitamin C stays in the system for a short time, so dosages spread out during the day is favorable. Is it possible an IF-protocol a la leangains with all meals (and vit C+E intake) post workout would reduce the negative effects anti oxidants have on training, while still having the positive effects? After all, we do want some inflammation during the workout as far as I've understood?

I know some of you here strongly advocate a high dosage of vitamin C (4-16g a day). How do you interpret the results?

I've read this thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/70745/vitamin-c-supplementation#axzz1eAOYzSBg

It has a lot of good information about vitamin C in general, but I did not find any specific information regarding the timing to prevent the effects described above.

Lars

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 22, 2011
at 09:42 PM

Stop assuming, Kamal.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 22, 2011
at 03:49 PM

But we want some muscle damage right? The hormetic response to this damage is what I had presumed led to muscle growth.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 22, 2011
at 11:55 AM

Still thinking .... still in the corner -- majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 22, 2011
at 11:54 AM

ZOMG, I just found YET ANOTHER ONE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21990004 "CoQ(10) supplementation before strenuous exercise decreases the oxidative stress and modulates the inflammatory signaling, reducing the subsequent muscle damage." Totally insane...

04f2eae4450112cdedce7235923c646d

(1112)

on November 22, 2011
at 03:59 AM

I tagged you because you have advocated a high intake in what I've read earlier. Thanks for the answer!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:34 PM

@Jeff: Looks like any mention of me brings the happiness to your life. What a great day must this be for you. If you behave good, I might even let you send me a e-mail once in a while. --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:27 PM

And body builders actually buy stuff like this to stop adapting: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/nb/hard.html. Amazing !

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:22 PM

And please, don't forget to take a beet juice. Thats the missing ingredient to unite all antioxidants .... --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:21 PM

Anyway, there is no such effect so there is no need to prevent 'the effect described above'. Otherwise, point me an animal that has hard time to adopt to exercise or has kidney stones issues. BTW, how do you describe the studies I posted on the page you referenced. Here is another one: http://www.muscleandfitness.com/nutrition/supplements/no-c-you. Here is another one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22024938. 150 studies with positive results, 23 with negative. What a brainier.... --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:12 PM

Didn't seem to have a "great" answer ?! ROFLMAO. Now... I am going to my corner to sit down and think a great answer for you Kamal. Give me 5 minutes.... --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:06 PM

Wow.. I got a tag. Nice :D I wonder how it didn't get deleted --majkinetor.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:10 AM

Jeff- Beet juice enhances endurance activities? Crazy! Googling produced this statement "Scientists aren't exactly sure how it works, but suspect having more nitric oxide in your body, a byproduct of nitrate, helps you exercise with less oxygen. Bailey said the same effects might be possible if people ate more nitrate-rich foods like beetroot, lettuce or spinach." I wonder if the results would have been different if they chose a different control. I know that NO-Xplode worked well for me years ago when I lifted weights through the same mechanism.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:07 AM

Lars- I hope someone chimes in with a more informative answer. Without doing a thorough survey of the evidence, I do pretty much what you seem to do. That is, leangains type eating without tons of vitamin C in the post-workout period. I don't regularly megadose with vitamin C.

04f2eae4450112cdedce7235923c646d

(1112)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Thanks, but I did not get a whole lot wiser about the topic.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Kamal I wish I could give you 2 up-votes... One for "Majkinetor, the human embodiment of vitamin C", and the other for using the phrase "You are wrong! I think. Lemme go check." Seriously though, I'm with you on this, but beet juice has shown to enhance endurance athlete's performance. I haven't looked too closely at this but I would presume the reasoning is due to the phytochemicals/antioxidnats. Any ideas on this?

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1 Answers

3
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:13 AM

Majkinetor, the human embodiment of vitamin C, did not seem to have a great answer for me when I asked him this question here. (majkinetor is "nope" in this thread)


P.S. One thing you didn't talk about is timing. I used to avoid taking vitamin C in the couple hours after working out, because of its role in combating adaptation to exercise. And because I'm of Indian descent, I know deep down in my deepest of hearts that I should be eating lots of mango and other high vitamin C foods. Mostly because mango is delicious. ??? Kamal??? Nov 12 at 6:28

Kamal, there is not such thing as impaired adaptation to exercise. ??? nope Nov 12 at 6:33

....related to C of course. ??? nope Nov 12 at 6:34

You are wrong! I think. Lemme go check. ??? Kamal??? Nov 12 at 6:35

Okay, this study is imperfect, but check it: "Antioxidants prevent health-promoting effects of physical exercise in humans"...pnas.org/content/early/2009/05/11/??? ??? Kamal??? Nov 12 at 6:38
1

I am not wrong, I know about all studies that show that. I posted already 10 different studies and rebutal of that particular one is among them. You can't select 1 or 2 studies, that is cherry picking. Like I said several times, if that was true, all animals would suck in exercise adaptation, right ? Since they dose C like 100x better then humans doing oral doses - they have continuous, dynamic C production which is optidosesd by the liver or kidney. Much of the C u take is lost in the intestines fighting toxins and helicobacter. ??? nope Nov 12 at 7:00

No problemo, I just like saying "You are wrong!". But you have to explain this to me better, or point me to the thread where you did so. It still seems intuitive to me that if you need ROS for optimal exercise adaptation, and vitamin C will combat that in the post-exercise window, that one would not want to take vitamin C then. Animals move around a lot more than I do. So I would want to time my nutrient intake so as to not interrupt hormetic responses to my very few minutes of activity. Or is this line of thinking off? ??? Kamal

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Kamal I wish I could give you 2 up-votes... One for "Majkinetor, the human embodiment of vitamin C", and the other for using the phrase "You are wrong! I think. Lemme go check." Seriously though, I'm with you on this, but beet juice has shown to enhance endurance athlete's performance. I haven't looked too closely at this but I would presume the reasoning is due to the phytochemicals/antioxidnats. Any ideas on this?

04f2eae4450112cdedce7235923c646d

(1112)

on November 21, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Thanks, but I did not get a whole lot wiser about the topic.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:12 PM

Didn't seem to have a "great" answer ?! ROFLMAO. Now... I am going to my corner to sit down and think a great answer for you Kamal. Give me 5 minutes.... --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 21, 2011
at 11:34 PM

@Jeff: Looks like any mention of me brings the happiness to your life. What a great day must this be for you. If you behave good, I might even let you send me a e-mail once in a while. --majkinetor

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 22, 2011
at 11:55 AM

Still thinking .... still in the corner -- majkinetor

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:10 AM

Jeff- Beet juice enhances endurance activities? Crazy! Googling produced this statement "Scientists aren't exactly sure how it works, but suspect having more nitric oxide in your body, a byproduct of nitrate, helps you exercise with less oxygen. Bailey said the same effects might be possible if people ate more nitrate-rich foods like beetroot, lettuce or spinach." I wonder if the results would have been different if they chose a different control. I know that NO-Xplode worked well for me years ago when I lifted weights through the same mechanism.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:07 AM

Lars- I hope someone chimes in with a more informative answer. Without doing a thorough survey of the evidence, I do pretty much what you seem to do. That is, leangains type eating without tons of vitamin C in the post-workout period. I don't regularly megadose with vitamin C.

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