14

votes

Can someone find common ground on the newest "safe starch" response?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 23, 2011 at 1:41 PM

Ron Rosedale just posted his latest response to the "safe starch" debate. Can anybody find the common ground so we can get back to crushing the real opposition...ADA, Big Pharma, School Lunch programs, Big Agra, FDA etc...? http://drrosedale.com/blog/2011/11/22/is-the-term-safe-starches-an-oxymoron/

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

But rice and potatoes DO NOT spike my blood glucose. They simply do not do this. Incidentally, I did eat a Dr. Ron-type diet and was marvelously successful with it. But my measurement for success was different. I simply wanted to have a decent bowel movement. Very extremely low carb did that for me. Hats off! Now I can, and do, eat starches. What changed? Intestinal biota, perhaps? So far I see two main points, the insulin spike thing and also the toxic byproducts of burning starches. Which is the greater worry? Because, I repeat, starch does not spike my blood glucose...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on December 14, 2011
at 01:24 AM

I agree with you. Conversely, it doesn't have to be high-carb either. Some of each works for me.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 28, 2011
at 09:36 AM

...should not imply that it is unhealthy pre-reproductively.. It is just as healthy pre as post. Thanks

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 26, 2011
at 03:22 AM

"and longest postreproductive life" Ok i get the long healthy life. what about people who havent had kids yet, those who are young, active. this is like the 3rd time i have seen' POSTreproductive' health regarding your diet. this implies, to me, that it is not healthy, nor desirable for someone who is pre-productive, ie, hasnt had kids yet.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 25, 2011
at 12:27 AM

If that's what you do, that's great. But to say paleo is meaningless now is rather sad.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 25, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Nothing random about what I do. I'm just tired of titles, cliques and tents. Tell me your diet is based on whole foods, devoid of NAD's and I'll listen.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Well some of us do care and we formed a movement based on evolutionary biology, not on random diets that may or may not work.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Ummmm I think I get it quite well. I don't care what it's called as long as it works.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 10:14 PM

@cliff and JRAC...I posted many in my response on Jimmy Moores site; don't have time to post more here at the moment.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 10:11 PM

@wjones...because it is spiking your insulin to keep the glucose down; as bad or worse..

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 08:27 PM

You are missing the point of paleo/ancestral then, which is diets based on evolutionary biology and ancient diets

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:42 PM

I like this--so long as one does the dirty work...articulating a hypothesis and getting at a metric for examination of said hypothesis.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I'll make something up here just to prove a point--there are seven types of damaged metabolisms. All respond differently. Some require zero carbs. Others require fecal transplants. Still others require the love of a woman. Your mileage may vary...

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:29 PM

Dr. Ron, I get that there are unsavory by-products of burning starches. But what about fat-burning? This is not a clean process, either. No fuel-burning process is clean. So how do I know that eating carbs is sub-optimal?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 05:54 PM

like i said before, paleo has been used to the point of being nearly meaningless. chris and stephan are more paleo than some who actually claim to be paleo. at this point and time what does paleo mean? and i'm not being rhetorical or glib.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:50 PM

@Bill - You obviously did not believe strongly enough in the ketones :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 04:29 PM

The Yakut of Siberia don't have that high of a protein intake, about 88 grams per day. Their BMR is 35% higher than reference values though! And the same holds constant for other SIberian cultures with higher protein intakes. Clearly there is a lot more at work here than protein and carbs. Researchers believe that the cold up-regulates their metabolism and also that they have unique genetic polymorphisms adapted for their environments. In most animal studies protein's effect on BMR is transient following a high-protein meal.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:28 PM

You admit your diet is for optimal brain function... not physical activity. What's an athlete to do on your diet? Or just a fairly young active person? They won't thrive in ketosis I can tell you that.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:27 PM

I was open minded enough to try your diet and not feel good on it. For me, it didn't work. But I am young, active, and I don't think the diet is tailored to me.... the problem is your are selling it the optimal diet for every human being... it is not.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:36 PM

Dr Rosedale, you've still not answered cliff's question.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:33 PM

I've made cupcakes before at home; I don't consider them a whole food. My point was it's ironic someone who harps on about his diet being optimal and longevity has no problem with foods such a nuts. Hardly an optimal food compared to a yam.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 03:24 PM

Tofu is definitely a whole food. I've made it before at home.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:14 PM

Anyone who allows Tofu surely isn't part of the ancestral health movement? Equally he still believes: ''So, when you eat carbohydrates (the starchy ones) your body turns them into sugar and produces insulin. The insulin tells your body to turn it into fat. The equation looks like this: Carbohydrate (starchy) > Sugar > Insulin > Fat Storage'' It's been debunked in that form; I just can't take anyone seriously who still views a whole class of macronutrient in this way.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:13 PM

I think all the people who say everyone has to eat lots of carbs and all the people who say carbs are evil for everyone should be put in a big hole and have potatoes thrown at them.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 24, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Dean, Rosedale is about more than just longevity; I believe he has said that he is about extending human lifespan beyond its natural limits.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 02:23 PM

So evolution and our ancestors don't even matter anymore? Stephan is not paleo, neither is Chris, but both are definitely into ancestral-based nutrition.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Exactly my point Cliff!

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 02:06 PM

@Bill; "end of story" and "better evidence than your scientific studies". Now that is an open mind...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 02:05 PM

cliff, "where is the science?" Bill doesn't believe in scientific studies..

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:49 PM

@luckybastard - I think I long ago lost the will to generate any serious responses to these carbuments.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:48 PM

I think I long ago lost the will to generate any serious responses to these carbuments.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:42 PM

whats a whole food? What makes butter/tallow/coconut oil etc. a whole food over other fractionated foods?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:21 PM

There reduced stature most likely increases there metabolic rate which could account for there resistance to modern disease. Kitavan don't exactly have that low of a protein intake either, at the average amount of calories(men probably eat a bit more) they would get ~70g of protein. The average protein intake in America is ~65g, there goes your low protein theory....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:08 PM

Why is it that this reminds me so much of the vegans?? "decades of science has shown robust evidence of the detriment of animal foods"

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:07 PM

Dr. Rosedale, re read my post. I didn't say you did.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:02 PM

lol@matthew... u british do excellent snark

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:58 AM

i think the criterion should be that if the diet is based in a whole foods context, then they should be invited in for a sit down and parsing of their reasoning concerning food choice and macronutrient ratios, etc. the word paleo loses definitive meaning, outside of sticking to a whole food context, each passing day. our tent ranges from the high carb, low protein of stephan(who doesn't call himself paleo but we accept him) and the low carb/moderate protein/low sat fat of loren cordain. i think rosedale fits in fine. like a good house party, everyone coming through the door gets patted down.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:25 AM

"decades of science has shown robust evidence of the detriment of spiking blood glucose." where is this science?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Yea Melissa, get down with the Precambrian diet :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Yea Melissa, the Precambrian diet is where it's at :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:02 AM

Yea Melissa, the precambrian diet is where it's at :)

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 24, 2011
at 08:42 AM

Typeonepointfive...I was made (by myself) Type 1...insulin dependant...you can call it what you want, Type 1, Type 1.2, Type 1.5,Type 3...it is still insulin dependant. I burned out my betas with chronically high BS. As Dr. Bernstein says "there are 3 kinds of betas. living, dying and dead." My C Reactive protein shows before and after. So...label me whatever you want, the wrong information about diet and my genetics placed me where I am today. Evelyn, I said you worked for Big Pharma not the ADA.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:11 AM

More so than your supportive studies.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:11 AM

The thing is... Your diet is for longevity... But can an athlete go on it and thrive? What about a growing teenager or a pregnant mom? An active young person in general? I think the answer is no. Anecdotal evidence has showed this to be true and you can accuse folks of doing your diet wrong all you want... But the fact is that ketosis is not optimal for everyone all the time end of story. Demonize carbs all you want but plenty of cultures thrive on them and to be that's better evidence than your scientific studies. From my own lab tests and bodily feedback I have found what makes me optimal

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 05:06 AM

I am very much into "ancestral" health, however my ancestral science far precedes "paleo", and includes it, such as the biology of aging. Melissa and others can exclude all science that she does not perceive to be paleo, but that will exclude billions of years of science and take paleo nutrition out of context, and leave one blind to the deeper, and more ancestral, science.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:41 AM

We do not run fast, are not particularly strong, and cannot fly. Our claim to evolutionary fame is our brain, that must deduce how best to stay healthy, and we must use the best current science to do so.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:41 AM

"Why would anyone expect Homo sapiens to be singularly capable or incapable of tolerating any one kind of food?" Because to live the healthiest, most youthful, and longest postreproductive life, we must do better than our ancestors or what nature intends or cares about. We do not have footsteps to follow. That is how we advance. Otherwise we cannot do any better than them...and that is not good enough for me, especially considering that most of us have decades of excess damage from modern living to undo.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:23 AM

I never said that lower protein consumption elevates T3; it does the opposite by lowering mTOR and leptin. Please do not believe that I "say" or think something that someone else has said, and then say I am contradicting myself..

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:59 AM

It would have been interesting if Rosedale actually addressed the points properly rather than waffling on and tip toeing around Paul's post. He goes onto state Kitavans are healthy and long lived because of their reduced stature (genes anyone?!) because of low protein (and therefore have higher T3 or at least according to Peat) and THEN goes on to say reduced T3 is optimal for longevity... Sigh

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on November 24, 2011
at 12:35 AM

Succinct and a call for reason. +1

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 12:31 AM

I tried to make on, but I'm on a new computer that has nothing on it. I'll have to wait until I get back home.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:10 AM

Isn't Jaminet also about longevity by means of resistance to infections?

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:09 AM

Isn't Jaminet also about longevity by means of low infection?

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:09 AM

Isn't Jaminet also all about longevity by means of low infection?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 23, 2011
at 11:58 PM

Hi expert Venn-diagram maker: time for you to make a diagram with paleo, low-carb, and CRON. Or Jaminet, Rosedale, and Guru X. But Venn diagrams never fail at being good discussion points.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 11:29 PM

Dr. Rosedale does not seem to learn from our ancestors or our evolutionary biology, he admits he is seeking to transcend our limitations as a species, which CRON is also about. Nothing wrong with that, but should it really be lumped in with paleo?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 11:27 PM

No, I'm against the attitude that all low carb authors have something to do with paleo. Some low carb authors are paleo philosophically, but not all of them. Dr. Rosedale has nothing to do with paleo/ancestral etc. and his philosophy is at odds with the whole foundation of that movement. Dr. Eades in contrast has made an attempt to meld with paleo and the Jaminets philosophy is founded on ancestral principles. Dr. Rosedale's stuff is more in line with the CHRON (calorie restriction w/ optimal nutrition) people, which could be a type of transhumanism.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 23, 2011
at 10:16 PM

What's happening with Chinese medicine?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on November 23, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I like your answer very much. I listened to an anthropologist on a [podcast recently talk about diet. He said that the one thing that made us human is our ability to eat a varied diet - oh that and eating nutrient dense foods that support small guts and big brains.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 09:46 PM

The stealth woo-i-fication is already happening. Some of this Chinese medicine stuff creeping in stealthily makes low-carb zealotry look benign in terms of the larger effects. I have NO problem with people who follow Chinese medicine, but keep this stuff at the Chinese medicine conferences/forums/whatever. Paleo is about evolutionary biology.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 23, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Excellent assessment, JayJay.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 23, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Everyone SHOULD be welcome in the tent yet it seems of late that a select few want to kick the low carbers out of the tent and zip it back up. I'm as much of a part of the paleo community as any high carber and this INCESSANT low carb bashing has really gotten insulting and boring quite frankly. Your insecurity is showing a bit too much for my taste.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 23, 2011
at 09:28 PM

Some people just bore easily I guess. I thought it was a great post.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:13 PM

+1 for Byetta? Check it out!!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:11 PM

Full Disclosure since I worked for *THEM*. I liquidated all of my stocks and any financial interest I had in the company I worked for within a year or so of leaving to go back to grad school full time. When I worked for the evil *them* I made a reasonable, but not phenomenal salary, nice benefits but as a young healthy person never made my yearly deductible to have anything covered, paid out of pocket for the occasional antibiotic, etc. So I'm not really sure what Andre's getting at and I do take it personally that somehow making an honest living with BP makes me somehow tainted. :(

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:07 PM

Hi Dextery! The name's Evelyn or CarbSane please. Thanks

3b002cfb591bae7438140adc0df5f771

on November 23, 2011
at 08:58 PM

You don't become T1 by following or not following any dietary recommendations. If you were slow onset type 1 then whatever you did you, whatever you ate, you would have become insulin dependent. (though perhaps some ongoing pharmaceutical trials may change this)Type 2 doesn't become T1, they are 2 different processes.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:55 PM

I'd like to see that too. I am 7 months in, though, and while my metabolism has greatly improved I have to behave fairly well. I can have a little honey in my coffee, and sweetened yogurt or a grapefruit are fine, but a dish of pineapple causes a BG spike unless I eat protein and fat first. So I think I'm experiencing a remission rather than a cure.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:54 PM

I'd like to see that too. I am 7 months in, though, and while my metabolism has greatly improved I have to behave fairly well. I can have a little honey in my coffee, and sweetened yogurt or a grapefruit are fine, a dish of pineapple causes a BG spike unless I eat protein and fat first. So I think I'm experiencing a remission rather than a cure.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:35 PM

peat keeps my interest, rosendales long drawn on paragraphs don't really seem to get anywhere.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 08:26 PM

One thing I wish we'd look at more is the current thinking that once a damaged metabolism, always a damaged metabolism. Staffan Lindeberg's small study (briefly discussed at AHS11) was very intriguing in terms of diabetics' response to paleo starches. Hint: they improved.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:18 PM

CarbInsane, you are just clueless.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Where did I attack you? Sheesh. Carb deficiency must thin the skin.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Andre, I have NO ... repeat ... NO affiliation with the ADA. It's also been a good long time since I worked in the pharmaceutical industry. What's your brief anyway? You could just as easily blame your MD for his/her recs or do you give your MD a pass for their part in your care. If having made my income doing research that has helped many others (amazingly I worked on a drug that made it to market and has helped thousands if not millions) come from a drug company vs. a university makes me biased, so be it. My bias is against those who dis scientists who have no clue.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 23, 2011
at 07:58 PM

you read peat and still found this long and boring?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 07:55 PM

that's what i was trying to say. we must vet ourselves.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Evelyn, you made this personal as you always do. Gary Taubes, Stephen G, Kurt Harris, Ron Rosedale have all been personally attacked by you. I am thankful and proud that you have now placed me in such high company.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Evelyn, you worked for them. You are biased...correct? You worked for them! I take misinformation very personally. It almost killed me twice with blood sugars over 800 following the ADA recommendations. Over 95% of the money that the ADA collects comes from Big Pharma. My biases come from those experiences. I never said I was not unbiased. I talked about what I owe Big Pharma...my life now. Biut before I became diabetic Type 1, I was Pre and then Type 2...I was made a Type 1 by following the recommendations of the ADA. Now drug companies get my money every month.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 05:53 PM

@All: Consider as well what motivates Big Pharma -- the desire for a quick fix, minimal effort, the magic pill, etc. In the venue of lifestyle diseases, something that gets us a free pass.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 05:51 PM

99% of what Andre says is biased. I just pulled that number out of a hat. Andre, where do you get your numbers? If you are T1 you should be heralding the work of BigPharma for their groundbreaking efforts to improve exogenous insulin delivery to best mimic endogenous production. Judging from your comment on my blog, I should probably nix the idea of perhaps finally getting my PhD in Pharmacology with some line of research along those lines.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 23, 2011
at 05:46 PM

yes its like 478365234 blog posts smashed in one...

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 05:41 PM

Hey...I am an Insulin dependant diabetic. Pharma saves my life with that. So now what? Give em a free pass? 71% of studies are biased. Pharma hires the most PHDs in Statisics. Is that so they can tell us the truth about the drugs that arent good, In the diabetic world, insulin and metformin are about as far as "good" drugs. They rest cause more problems than they solve. +1 for Insulin...+1 for Glucophage...now what do I give them for the rest? My beef isnt with the scientists...marketing.

724ba4f39f7bbea7f74b45c0a79615f2

(1968)

on November 23, 2011
at 04:40 PM

+1 to luckybastard for the poetry of "searching for their own bit of optimality"

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 23, 2011
at 04:04 PM

Right on, Evelyn. I hold no brief for Big Pharma Etc., but scapegoating is seldom wise. And even if we can question the priorities of medical research, can we please celebrate their remarkable success in helping extend healthy lifespan? I consider it a success per se to never need RX drugs, but I am glad to know they exist.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:44 PM

the word paleo basically means very little to me these days. alot of us are looking for what makes us feel and perform well. i could care less who they invite as long as their science is together and their peers are given the chance to give them a good going over. i'm not afraid of being wrong. if ornish gets up there with his low-fat dogma at AHS, who among us believes that he wouldn't get tooled in the Q&A? hell, let's invite him for that purpose and then put it on youtube. i bet that goes viral and helps alot of people who are searching for their own bit of optimality.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 03:20 PM

Are we going to invite Dean Ornish then? His diet is as "paleo" as Rosedales.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 03:20 PM

I wish we'd stop treating carb consumption as one-size-fits-all. Why not view carb intake as a continuum, with some needing to eat less and some needing to eat more? That said, taking the position that there are no safe starches does not seem a great fit with paleo. I'm all for big tent/gentlemanly debates, but let's see a little mix of science with common sense, lest we wind up convincing ourselves that cigarettes may be useful for distance runners! http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2011/11/21/cigarettes-may-be-useful-for-distance-runners-or-how-to-prove-anything-with-a-review-article/

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:14 PM

i agree, Mel. I thought months ago (a year maybe?) we ditched the LC thing.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:13 PM

i think this ancestral way of eating is a big tent and everyone's welcome. however, i do think everyone's ideas should be scrutinized thoroughly, which iws what is happening in this gentlemanly debate between rosedale and jaminet. my vote is to let it play itself out.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 03:03 PM

How did this low-carb doc attach himself to paleo? That's something we need to ask ourselves before AHS becomes a low-carb conference.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Yes! The presence of both salivary and pancreatic amylase suggests that we evolved to digest starch and it makes little sense to automatically disregard it as a food source. That said, our glycogen stores are not infinite, so it seems plausible that perpetually overeating has downstream effects due to both excess carbs and fat. But the solution is to start with real, whole food. Amount of carbs and source of them can then be adjusted based on individual activity levels, preference, and general metabolic health etc.

13a44ea00b0c9af0b6d0f3d5f5c2cfca

(7223)

on November 23, 2011
at 02:33 PM

+1 This, this, a thousand times this!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 02:30 PM

Amen! I like the idea of "common ground" being doing what is positive for yourself, not uniting against some supposed common enemy. Perhaps I'm biased having worked as a research scientist in the pharmaceutical industry, but the research that goes into developing those drugs and the folks doing it are NOT your enemy! Folks wouldn't even be discussing insulin or leptin without them.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 23, 2011
at 02:12 PM

He thinks his diet is the most scientifically advanced diet in the world.... wow lol. Does anyone else find this blog post very long and boring? I could hardly get past the first couple paragraphs.

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13 Answers

34
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on November 23, 2011
at 01:49 PM

Andre, i think the common ground is real, whole food. That's the common ground for everyone. It gets dicey once you move past that because after that point one may need to restrict certain foods- yes, even safe starches- depending on the damage that has been incurred whether epigenetically or the decades on a modern, wheat, sugar and seed oil-based diet. this may also require supplementation for some.

  1. eat whole foods that eschew wheat, seed oils and excess fructose
  2. deal with your own damage based on trial and error.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:18 PM

CarbInsane, you are just clueless.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Evelyn, you made this personal as you always do. Gary Taubes, Stephen G, Kurt Harris, Ron Rosedale have all been personally attacked by you. I am thankful and proud that you have now placed me in such high company.

3b002cfb591bae7438140adc0df5f771

on November 23, 2011
at 08:58 PM

You don't become T1 by following or not following any dietary recommendations. If you were slow onset type 1 then whatever you did you, whatever you ate, you would have become insulin dependent. (though perhaps some ongoing pharmaceutical trials may change this)Type 2 doesn't become T1, they are 2 different processes.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 05:53 PM

@All: Consider as well what motivates Big Pharma -- the desire for a quick fix, minimal effort, the magic pill, etc. In the venue of lifestyle diseases, something that gets us a free pass.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:11 PM

Full Disclosure since I worked for *THEM*. I liquidated all of my stocks and any financial interest I had in the company I worked for within a year or so of leaving to go back to grad school full time. When I worked for the evil *them* I made a reasonable, but not phenomenal salary, nice benefits but as a young healthy person never made my yearly deductible to have anything covered, paid out of pocket for the occasional antibiotic, etc. So I'm not really sure what Andre's getting at and I do take it personally that somehow making an honest living with BP makes me somehow tainted. :(

13a44ea00b0c9af0b6d0f3d5f5c2cfca

(7223)

on November 23, 2011
at 02:33 PM

+1 This, this, a thousand times this!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:07 PM

Hi Dextery! The name's Evelyn or CarbSane please. Thanks

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Andre, I have NO ... repeat ... NO affiliation with the ADA. It's also been a good long time since I worked in the pharmaceutical industry. What's your brief anyway? You could just as easily blame your MD for his/her recs or do you give your MD a pass for their part in your care. If having made my income doing research that has helped many others (amazingly I worked on a drug that made it to market and has helped thousands if not millions) come from a drug company vs. a university makes me biased, so be it. My bias is against those who dis scientists who have no clue.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 02:30 PM

Amen! I like the idea of "common ground" being doing what is positive for yourself, not uniting against some supposed common enemy. Perhaps I'm biased having worked as a research scientist in the pharmaceutical industry, but the research that goes into developing those drugs and the folks doing it are NOT your enemy! Folks wouldn't even be discussing insulin or leptin without them.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 05:51 PM

99% of what Andre says is biased. I just pulled that number out of a hat. Andre, where do you get your numbers? If you are T1 you should be heralding the work of BigPharma for their groundbreaking efforts to improve exogenous insulin delivery to best mimic endogenous production. Judging from your comment on my blog, I should probably nix the idea of perhaps finally getting my PhD in Pharmacology with some line of research along those lines.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Where did I attack you? Sheesh. Carb deficiency must thin the skin.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 23, 2011
at 09:13 PM

+1 for Byetta? Check it out!!

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Yes! The presence of both salivary and pancreatic amylase suggests that we evolved to digest starch and it makes little sense to automatically disregard it as a food source. That said, our glycogen stores are not infinite, so it seems plausible that perpetually overeating has downstream effects due to both excess carbs and fat. But the solution is to start with real, whole food. Amount of carbs and source of them can then be adjusted based on individual activity levels, preference, and general metabolic health etc.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 23, 2011
at 04:04 PM

Right on, Evelyn. I hold no brief for Big Pharma Etc., but scapegoating is seldom wise. And even if we can question the priorities of medical research, can we please celebrate their remarkable success in helping extend healthy lifespan? I consider it a success per se to never need RX drugs, but I am glad to know they exist.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on November 24, 2011
at 12:35 AM

Succinct and a call for reason. +1

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 05:41 PM

Hey...I am an Insulin dependant diabetic. Pharma saves my life with that. So now what? Give em a free pass? 71% of studies are biased. Pharma hires the most PHDs in Statisics. Is that so they can tell us the truth about the drugs that arent good, In the diabetic world, insulin and metformin are about as far as "good" drugs. They rest cause more problems than they solve. +1 for Insulin...+1 for Glucophage...now what do I give them for the rest? My beef isnt with the scientists...marketing.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Evelyn, you worked for them. You are biased...correct? You worked for them! I take misinformation very personally. It almost killed me twice with blood sugars over 800 following the ADA recommendations. Over 95% of the money that the ADA collects comes from Big Pharma. My biases come from those experiences. I never said I was not unbiased. I talked about what I owe Big Pharma...my life now. Biut before I became diabetic Type 1, I was Pre and then Type 2...I was made a Type 1 by following the recommendations of the ADA. Now drug companies get my money every month.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 24, 2011
at 08:42 AM

Typeonepointfive...I was made (by myself) Type 1...insulin dependant...you can call it what you want, Type 1, Type 1.2, Type 1.5,Type 3...it is still insulin dependant. I burned out my betas with chronically high BS. As Dr. Bernstein says "there are 3 kinds of betas. living, dying and dead." My C Reactive protein shows before and after. So...label me whatever you want, the wrong information about diet and my genetics placed me where I am today. Evelyn, I said you worked for Big Pharma not the ADA.

23
7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 23, 2011
at 07:13 PM

The problem with only looking at common ground is that pretty soon you will have homeopathy and liver cleanses at the AHS. If you give pseudoscience a free pass, it takes on a life of its own.

How many people on PH seriously talk about Leptin Resets like it is something other than some guy???s wild speculation? How many people have filled the various forums saying we should give Dr. Davis???s Wheat Belly a free pass on the science just because he shares some common ground (though Denise Minger could probably massacre it just as bad as ???The China Study??? is she were so inclined)?

I do think common ground is important, but I think it is even more important to be highly skeptical of suspect claims and to try and weed out bad thinking.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 07:55 PM

that's what i was trying to say. we must vet ourselves.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 09:46 PM

The stealth woo-i-fication is already happening. Some of this Chinese medicine stuff creeping in stealthily makes low-carb zealotry look benign in terms of the larger effects. I have NO problem with people who follow Chinese medicine, but keep this stuff at the Chinese medicine conferences/forums/whatever. Paleo is about evolutionary biology.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 23, 2011
at 10:16 PM

What's happening with Chinese medicine?

15
531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

on November 23, 2011
at 04:25 PM

This reminds me of playground conversations, where one kid is talking about his favorite color and the other kid is talking about his stuffed animal toy.

2 million years of evolution.

2 million years of climate change and environmental change.

Countless micro and macroenvironmental variables.

Why would anyone expect Homo sapiens to be singularly capable or incapable of tolerating any one kind of food? The species is robust and varied. We're wired for survival in any one of a number of environments. Which is not to say that I, for one, am similarly adaptable.

Population recommendations at the expense of the individual...anyone getting a USDA Food Pyramid vibe when the "leaders" of the "movement" start being overly prescriptive?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on November 23, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I like your answer very much. I listened to an anthropologist on a [podcast recently talk about diet. He said that the one thing that made us human is our ability to eat a varied diet - oh that and eating nutrient dense foods that support small guts and big brains.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:41 AM

"Why would anyone expect Homo sapiens to be singularly capable or incapable of tolerating any one kind of food?" Because to live the healthiest, most youthful, and longest postreproductive life, we must do better than our ancestors or what nature intends or cares about. We do not have footsteps to follow. That is how we advance. Otherwise we cannot do any better than them...and that is not good enough for me, especially considering that most of us have decades of excess damage from modern living to undo.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:29 PM

Dr. Ron, I get that there are unsavory by-products of burning starches. But what about fat-burning? This is not a clean process, either. No fuel-burning process is clean. So how do I know that eating carbs is sub-optimal?

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:41 AM

We do not run fast, are not particularly strong, and cannot fly. Our claim to evolutionary fame is our brain, that must deduce how best to stay healthy, and we must use the best current science to do so.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 26, 2011
at 03:22 AM

"and longest postreproductive life" Ok i get the long healthy life. what about people who havent had kids yet, those who are young, active. this is like the 3rd time i have seen' POSTreproductive' health regarding your diet. this implies, to me, that it is not healthy, nor desirable for someone who is pre-productive, ie, hasnt had kids yet.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 28, 2011
at 09:36 AM

...should not imply that it is unhealthy pre-reproductively.. It is just as healthy pre as post. Thanks

12
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 11:44 PM

I think at its core we have a major issue, which is that this debate is between transhumanism and ancestral health.

As Paul Jaminet says "Dr. Rosedale rejects evolutionary selection as a helpful criterion, since evolution did not necessarily select for longevity."

Dr. Rosedale rejects the Kitavans as anything to live up to because he believes his diet can do better.

Dr. Rosedale's regimen is more similar to CRON (calorie restriction with optimal nutrition) than paleo/paleo 2.0/ancestral health. They are both based on transcending human biological limitations. They want to do BETTER than our ancestors. Nothing wrong with that, but that was never what paleo was about. And unfortunately some of these regimens are speculatively based on animal/in vitro studies.

I dabbled in CRON before I was into paleo and ultimately rejected it (and a lot of transhumanism), because I learned about more advanced evolutionary theories, like the idea that evolution DID select for longevity (the grandmothering hypothesis). And I'd be THRILLED to have the health of a Kitavan. Let's not get ahead of ourselves if we can't even do better than societies without pubmed.

I don't really get the "big tent" people who say that there is something insecure about not wanting to include every single author out there who writes about low-carb in our paleo/ancestral health tent.

I think debating Rosedale's ideas is interesting and useful, but ultimately the idea that he is derailing the goals of the ancestral health movement is sad because he was never part of it.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 23, 2011
at 11:58 PM

Hi expert Venn-diagram maker: time for you to make a diagram with paleo, low-carb, and CRON. Or Jaminet, Rosedale, and Guru X. But Venn diagrams never fail at being good discussion points.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:10 AM

Isn't Jaminet also about longevity by means of resistance to infections?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 03:24 PM

Tofu is definitely a whole food. I've made it before at home.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 02:23 PM

So evolution and our ancestors don't even matter anymore? Stephan is not paleo, neither is Chris, but both are definitely into ancestral-based nutrition.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 25, 2011
at 12:27 AM

If that's what you do, that's great. But to say paleo is meaningless now is rather sad.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:09 AM

Isn't Jaminet also about longevity by means of low infection?

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:33 PM

I've made cupcakes before at home; I don't consider them a whole food. My point was it's ironic someone who harps on about his diet being optimal and longevity has no problem with foods such a nuts. Hardly an optimal food compared to a yam.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Well some of us do care and we formed a movement based on evolutionary biology, not on random diets that may or may not work.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 08:27 PM

You are missing the point of paleo/ancestral then, which is diets based on evolutionary biology and ancient diets

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Ummmm I think I get it quite well. I don't care what it's called as long as it works.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:42 PM

whats a whole food? What makes butter/tallow/coconut oil etc. a whole food over other fractionated foods?

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:14 PM

Anyone who allows Tofu surely isn't part of the ancestral health movement? Equally he still believes: ''So, when you eat carbohydrates (the starchy ones) your body turns them into sugar and produces insulin. The insulin tells your body to turn it into fat. The equation looks like this: Carbohydrate (starchy) > Sugar > Insulin > Fat Storage'' It's been debunked in that form; I just can't take anyone seriously who still views a whole class of macronutrient in this way.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 05:54 PM

like i said before, paleo has been used to the point of being nearly meaningless. chris and stephan are more paleo than some who actually claim to be paleo. at this point and time what does paleo mean? and i'm not being rhetorical or glib.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:09 AM

Isn't Jaminet also all about longevity by means of low infection?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 24, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Dean, Rosedale is about more than just longevity; I believe he has said that he is about extending human lifespan beyond its natural limits.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 24, 2011
at 12:31 AM

I tried to make on, but I'm on a new computer that has nothing on it. I'll have to wait until I get back home.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 25, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Nothing random about what I do. I'm just tired of titles, cliques and tents. Tell me your diet is based on whole foods, devoid of NAD's and I'll listen.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:58 AM

i think the criterion should be that if the diet is based in a whole foods context, then they should be invited in for a sit down and parsing of their reasoning concerning food choice and macronutrient ratios, etc. the word paleo loses definitive meaning, outside of sticking to a whole food context, each passing day. our tent ranges from the high carb, low protein of stephan(who doesn't call himself paleo but we accept him) and the low carb/moderate protein/low sat fat of loren cordain. i think rosedale fits in fine. like a good house party, everyone coming through the door gets patted down.

8
1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

on November 24, 2011
at 04:10 AM

I don't feel that it is so extreme to recommend against eating concentrated carbs such as rice and potatoes, especially when decades of science has shown robust evidence of the detriment of spiking blood glucose. I also do say that people can have all the vegetables that they want, except for the overly sugary ones. The debate is about optimal or perfect diet. If one wants to deviate from that and have a few more likely subclinical ramifications such as glycated molecules, or resistant receptors, to enjoy a bowl of rice, that is up to them. I just do not want that person to think it is healthy to do so. It should be looked upon as we view a piece of chocolate cream pie; unhealthy, but we want it now anyway; not that we are biologically better off for having eaten it. The point is that there is no such thing as a glucose deficiency or a healthy need to eat starches. If one wants to endure a bit of tolerable biological harm for some momentary pleasure, that's great, but the person should know what he/she is doing. I drive occasionally without a seatbelt, but I do not want anyone telling me that this is safe. If there is some unbelievably great bread at a restaurant, I might have a small bit, and savor it, not because I am deluded into thinking it is healthy, but because I am willing to take the risk.

In other words, I find it far preferable and more accurate to say, "follow the Rosedale Diet, but it is OK if you are healthy to cheat a little now and then", than to say it is healthy to do so.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:28 PM

You admit your diet is for optimal brain function... not physical activity. What's an athlete to do on your diet? Or just a fairly young active person? They won't thrive in ketosis I can tell you that.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:08 PM

Why is it that this reminds me so much of the vegans?? "decades of science has shown robust evidence of the detriment of animal foods"

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 02:06 PM

@Bill; "end of story" and "better evidence than your scientific studies". Now that is an open mind...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 10:11 PM

@wjones...because it is spiking your insulin to keep the glucose down; as bad or worse..

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:11 AM

More so than your supportive studies.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 02:05 PM

cliff, "where is the science?" Bill doesn't believe in scientific studies..

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 24, 2011
at 11:25 AM

"decades of science has shown robust evidence of the detriment of spiking blood glucose." where is this science?

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:11 AM

The thing is... Your diet is for longevity... But can an athlete go on it and thrive? What about a growing teenager or a pregnant mom? An active young person in general? I think the answer is no. Anecdotal evidence has showed this to be true and you can accuse folks of doing your diet wrong all you want... But the fact is that ketosis is not optimal for everyone all the time end of story. Demonize carbs all you want but plenty of cultures thrive on them and to be that's better evidence than your scientific studies. From my own lab tests and bodily feedback I have found what makes me optimal

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 24, 2011
at 10:14 PM

@cliff and JRAC...I posted many in my response on Jimmy Moores site; don't have time to post more here at the moment.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:36 PM

Dr Rosedale, you've still not answered cliff's question.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:27 PM

I was open minded enough to try your diet and not feel good on it. For me, it didn't work. But I am young, active, and I don't think the diet is tailored to me.... the problem is your are selling it the optimal diet for every human being... it is not.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 04:50 PM

@Bill - You obviously did not believe strongly enough in the ketones :)

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

But rice and potatoes DO NOT spike my blood glucose. They simply do not do this. Incidentally, I did eat a Dr. Ron-type diet and was marvelously successful with it. But my measurement for success was different. I simply wanted to have a decent bowel movement. Very extremely low carb did that for me. Hats off! Now I can, and do, eat starches. What changed? Intestinal biota, perhaps? So far I see two main points, the insulin spike thing and also the toxic byproducts of burning starches. Which is the greater worry? Because, I repeat, starch does not spike my blood glucose...

7
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 23, 2011
at 02:16 PM

How can there be common ground with someone who vilifies a whole macro-nutrient and thinks his experimental diet is the most scientifically advanced diet in the world?

Maybe we can come to a common ground once rosendale realizes carbohydrates aren't the dietary devil he makes them out to be based mostly on anecdotes and flawed studies from what I can gather.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 03:20 PM

I wish we'd stop treating carb consumption as one-size-fits-all. Why not view carb intake as a continuum, with some needing to eat less and some needing to eat more? That said, taking the position that there are no safe starches does not seem a great fit with paleo. I'm all for big tent/gentlemanly debates, but let's see a little mix of science with common sense, lest we wind up convincing ourselves that cigarettes may be useful for distance runners! http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2011/11/21/cigarettes-may-be-useful-for-distance-runners-or-how-to-prove-anything-with-a-review-article/

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:13 PM

i think this ancestral way of eating is a big tent and everyone's welcome. however, i do think everyone's ideas should be scrutinized thoroughly, which iws what is happening in this gentlemanly debate between rosedale and jaminet. my vote is to let it play itself out.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:44 PM

the word paleo basically means very little to me these days. alot of us are looking for what makes us feel and perform well. i could care less who they invite as long as their science is together and their peers are given the chance to give them a good going over. i'm not afraid of being wrong. if ornish gets up there with his low-fat dogma at AHS, who among us believes that he wouldn't get tooled in the Q&A? hell, let's invite him for that purpose and then put it on youtube. i bet that goes viral and helps alot of people who are searching for their own bit of optimality.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 03:03 PM

How did this low-carb doc attach himself to paleo? That's something we need to ask ourselves before AHS becomes a low-carb conference.

724ba4f39f7bbea7f74b45c0a79615f2

(1968)

on November 23, 2011
at 04:40 PM

+1 to luckybastard for the poetry of "searching for their own bit of optimality"

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 23, 2011
at 03:14 PM

i agree, Mel. I thought months ago (a year maybe?) we ditched the LC thing.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 11:27 PM

No, I'm against the attitude that all low carb authors have something to do with paleo. Some low carb authors are paleo philosophically, but not all of them. Dr. Rosedale has nothing to do with paleo/ancestral etc. and his philosophy is at odds with the whole foundation of that movement. Dr. Eades in contrast has made an attempt to meld with paleo and the Jaminets philosophy is founded on ancestral principles. Dr. Rosedale's stuff is more in line with the CHRON (calorie restriction w/ optimal nutrition) people, which could be a type of transhumanism.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 03:20 PM

Are we going to invite Dean Ornish then? His diet is as "paleo" as Rosedales.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Yea Melissa, get down with the Precambrian diet :)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:02 PM

lol@matthew... u british do excellent snark

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 23, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Everyone SHOULD be welcome in the tent yet it seems of late that a select few want to kick the low carbers out of the tent and zip it back up. I'm as much of a part of the paleo community as any high carber and this INCESSANT low carb bashing has really gotten insulting and boring quite frankly. Your insecurity is showing a bit too much for my taste.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 23, 2011
at 11:29 PM

Dr. Rosedale does not seem to learn from our ancestors or our evolutionary biology, he admits he is seeking to transcend our limitations as a species, which CRON is also about. Nothing wrong with that, but should it really be lumped in with paleo?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 03:13 PM

I think all the people who say everyone has to eat lots of carbs and all the people who say carbs are evil for everyone should be put in a big hole and have potatoes thrown at them.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:49 PM

@luckybastard - I think I long ago lost the will to generate any serious responses to these carbuments.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 24, 2011
at 05:06 AM

I am very much into "ancestral" health, however my ancestral science far precedes "paleo", and includes it, such as the biology of aging. Melissa and others can exclude all science that she does not perceive to be paleo, but that will exclude billions of years of science and take paleo nutrition out of context, and leave one blind to the deeper, and more ancestral, science.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:02 AM

Yea Melissa, the precambrian diet is where it's at :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Yea Melissa, the Precambrian diet is where it's at :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 24, 2011
at 12:48 PM

I think I long ago lost the will to generate any serious responses to these carbuments.

5
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:20 PM

Our true common ground, besides staying away from wheat & soy (at the very least), is hyper-eccentricity.

4
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:19 PM

He makes some good assertions in response the response to the response.... errr to the response? What do you want? They both have an interest in their own diets soundness. I really don't see it as an issue. Its a quite interesting question being debated by the two people who understand their own recommendations best.

Much better than some slightly better informed person of one camp trying to pick and chose responses to demonize either the low carb approach or the high carb of another posters.

And lets face it we are talking the difference between low carb and lower when compared to most recommendations. For me I eat fruit and like honey in my coffee if I have any "extra" carbs. So starches just aren't my bag anyhow. But, let them have their fun either way.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 23, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Excellent assessment, JayJay.

4
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 23, 2011
at 06:58 PM

The common ground at this point seems to be that their diet approaches are very different and so are individual humans.

The Rosedale stance, and diet, seems pretty extreme and therefore offers a pretty small window for overlap with Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet. The Rosedale protein recommendation of 50-75 grams or 2-3 ounces is VERY low. His permanent ban of so many fruits and sweet potatoes, etc., would be unlivable for me but people with severe diabetes reportedly respond well and I'm sure they're ready to do whatever it takes to improve their health.

I think Rosedale's strongest point is that many of us with damaged metabolisms are now very reactive to carbs. He's certainly right in my case, but the solution is much easier than never eating any--I simply eat protein and fat first and then a reasonable carb allowance has little to no effect on my BG.

Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet is pretty close to what I'm already eating. I think it's more realistic for everyday living. But perhaps not optimal for those with full-fledged diabetes?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 23, 2011
at 08:26 PM

One thing I wish we'd look at more is the current thinking that once a damaged metabolism, always a damaged metabolism. Staffan Lindeberg's small study (briefly discussed at AHS11) was very intriguing in terms of diabetics' response to paleo starches. Hint: they improved.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I'll make something up here just to prove a point--there are seven types of damaged metabolisms. All respond differently. Some require zero carbs. Others require fecal transplants. Still others require the love of a woman. Your mileage may vary...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:55 PM

I'd like to see that too. I am 7 months in, though, and while my metabolism has greatly improved I have to behave fairly well. I can have a little honey in my coffee, and sweetened yogurt or a grapefruit are fine, but a dish of pineapple causes a BG spike unless I eat protein and fat first. So I think I'm experiencing a remission rather than a cure.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 23, 2011
at 08:54 PM

I'd like to see that too. I am 7 months in, though, and while my metabolism has greatly improved I have to behave fairly well. I can have a little honey in my coffee, and sweetened yogurt or a grapefruit are fine, a dish of pineapple causes a BG spike unless I eat protein and fat first. So I think I'm experiencing a remission rather than a cure.

3
C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

on November 23, 2011
at 05:46 PM

yes common ground...if your curious, try it for 2 weeks, evaluate and make a decision based on YOUR OWN experiences...

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on November 24, 2011
at 06:42 PM

I like this--so long as one does the dirty work...articulating a hypothesis and getting at a metric for examination of said hypothesis.

1
E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on February 29, 2012
at 11:55 AM

Rosedale is interested in patients' problems, and Jaminet is intereted in the theoretical, optimal human.

That's the biggest difference I see.

I haven't read a lot of Jaminet but so far I haven't seen him take into account that humans adapt to use less carbs from food than you find in mothers milk (adjusted for an adult).

Ask anyone who designs on/off road vehicles and they will tell you that the best design is a compromise. Similarly, humans come equipped to process a combination of fat, protein, and carbs to cover more than one food source and times of scarcity. We are a compromise too.

Arguing over which is best is like arguing if a jeep is for the road or dirt. It just depends!

1
Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on November 24, 2011
at 08:31 AM

Paleo doesn't have to be low-carb, and I think saying that all Paleolithic/indigenous tribes ate low carb is flat out unsubstantiated. This is especially true for anyone who trains hard with anaerobic exercise (weights, HIIT, endurance)

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on December 14, 2011
at 01:24 AM

I agree with you. Conversely, it doesn't have to be high-carb either. Some of each works for me.

0
13a44ea00b0c9af0b6d0f3d5f5c2cfca

(7223)

on November 23, 2011
at 02:10 PM

+1 This, this, a thousand times this!

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