4

votes

Does this article and do these studies show that vlc (diet in general) is inferior to HIIT (for body Recomposition)?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 08, 2013 at 12:10 AM

Well I read the article below and for all this time I thought that maybe vlc had real merit, but now I'm starting to think that vlc is standing on hole cloth, much like vlf. According to one of these studies vlc and vlf both have similar results, both have very modest results and both results PALE in comparison to regular HIIT training (vlc and vlf both resulted in modest fat and muscle loss, while hiit resulted in fat loss and muscle mass gains ie. better body composition) Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma? Is it time we embrace truly superior lifestyle choices like HIIT in its place? What do you think?

"Ready Set Go Fitness" is a great book by Phil Cambell that I read many years ago.?? It focuses on the "Sprint 8" protocol.?? This is where a person does a 30-second sprint (running, biking, elliptical, etc.) and then moves at a low-intensity pace for 90 seconds.?? This is one round, and the idea is to build up to 8 rounds, hence, Sprint 8.

A new study has been released testing the Sprint 8 protocol.?? The study has not been published yet, to my knowledge, but it can be found here.?? The study involved 11 middle-aged adults, so granted it is a small sample.

Overall, the results are just staggering.?? In only 8 weeks, subjects had amazing results across many indicators.????Average weight "only" dropped by 9.6 pounds, but there was a massive shift between body fat and muscle.?? Based on the body fat measures, the average subject lost 23.8 pounds of fat.?? They also gained 14.2 pounds of muscle.?? If these results are replicated in future studies, this would represent one of the most effective diet/exercise interventions ever.

Compare this result to??the recent two-year study that contrasted a low-fat diet to a low-carbohydrate diet.?? On average, participants from either group lost 9 pounds of fat but also 5 pounds of lean mass over this two-year period.

Of course, the Sprint 8 study was only 8 weeks, and not two years, but if you look at other studies you see that??weight loss from exercise is often better maintained than weight loss from diet alone.

-http://www.mattmetzgar.com/2012/02/amazing-sprint-8-study.htmL


Edit:

And I must say, this is a paleo hacks site. It says in the FAQ that questions in regard to crossfit are fine. Vlc is often combined with paleo and people use it to lose weight. HIIT is an exercise technique that results in the only thing better than weight loss, body Recomposition (fat loss muscle gain). Because of the extent to which HIIT seems to surpass vlc in body composition improvements I consider HIIT to be a hack, a paleo hack. Maybe HIIT and vlc aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but because of how physically demanding HIIT is, it is VERY difficult to fully perform a protocol such as Sprint 8 while vlc'ing; so these two tend towards mutual exclusivity (hence me comparing them in my question). 4 out of the 5 people who have voted to close this question have done so on the grounds that this is "not a real question". However this IS a real question. I fully expect people who have knowledge in this area to answer my question and critique the studies I referenced, telling me that the results from that sprint 8 trial are an outlier or that the study on vlc was an outlier and then for them to provide other studies that back claims vlc (diet) is as efficient or better than (HIIT), or studies showing they actually can be performed together with similar results, or people saying yes that's right.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:26 PM

This was my second choice for best answer, unfortunately idk how or if I can split a bounty, but I just wanna Ty again for this response.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:15 PM

Don't mention the intensity*

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:14 PM

Even if vlc works perfect with HIIT, when comparing them in isolation I show that HIIT works better than vlc for fat loss and muscle gains by a significant margin. There are two clinical studies in my question so this clearly isn't n=1, do you know what n=1 means? I don't know what training for elite gymnasts is like and since they don't me ton the intensity of these athlete's training in the study you referenced you also cannot say with accuracy what these athlete's training was like, much less assert they were HIIT training.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 13, 2013
at 06:02 PM

I hope everyone is able to keep an open mind and continue to read the research that is coming open on Pubmed. I also hope these kinds of questions don't get closed in the future. I'm happy to have civil discussion from a research perspective, even if I'm not a competitive athlete or natural athlete like some of you fellas on here :) I'm just a nerd and am happy to look things up.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 13, 2013
at 12:48 AM

I'd speculate 10-30g max for your 20 minutes of HIIT. As long as your only doing this 3x/week there is more than enough time to replenish glycogen stores. Even though VLC'er have less muscle glycogen on average than normal or high carb dieters they still carry a couple to a few hundred grams of glycogen and have shifted their energy usage systems to conserve this glycogen in times its not needed, making it available for that sprint.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 13, 2013
at 12:44 AM

BTW stephen I in part pointed this out in comments under my answer, but your HIIT protocol really is absolutely PERFECT for pairing with low carb or VLC eating. How much glycogen to you suppose you go through doing HIIT for 4 minutes (tabata)...or even your 20 minute version? Seriously if you look into HIT resistance protocols like Body by Science (Doug McGuff) or Drew Bayes or Fred Hann many of them are also low carb proponents because the briefness of the protocol...although glycolytic....lends itself well to VLC/LC due to the short time frame leading to very little overall glycogen need.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 11:05 PM

oh and @ Stephen this study will really interest you. Not quite on your HIIT thread, but definitely on the "carb" topic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431985

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 10:30 PM

@ Stephen- It wasn't because of this thread but I changed my life with HIIT (combo of resistance training and sprints). Gained a lot of health and lean body mass with it. Also, a very simple answer to the question "is HIIT better than VLC?" is to simply compare your average very low carber with your average track and field athlete.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 10:29 PM

@ Stephen- It wasn't because of this thread but I changed my life with HIIT (combo of resistance training and sprints). Gained a lot of health and lean body mass with it. Also, a very simple answer to the question "is HIIT better than VLC" is to simply look at your average sprinter and then look at your average low carber. I think there you have your answer.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:16 PM

Them to reach what in my opinion is a higher degree of physical perfection/physical health. So I'd gladly take 100 downvotes on here if one person really changed their life via body Recomposition via HIIT because of this thread. I'd kill to have known this stuff 10 years ago.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:14 PM

It's my opinion that we, as a world, need a strong and healthy population and HIIT, has helped me tremendously to be the strong willed kinda person who I want to be. There's something empowering about giving something your all and then knowing you can rest because you did everything you coulda done. I'm not going to pretend that HIIT is the sole pillar holding the fountain of youth, but it is an extremely important part of the equation from my perspective and I know that there re a ton of people on ph and on google who will eventually benefit from the rchove of questions like this encouraging

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:13 PM

Thanks! I put some detail in a previous answer: http://paleohacks.com/questions/143056/hiit-and-bodyweight-workout-frequency-at-home/143068#143068

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:10 PM

The main reason I posted this and had a comparison to HIIT is because a) vlc gives people a point of reference that they can really understand since a lot of people here have at least tried vlc, myself included. And b) I've noticed such great results and the science seems to support my and experiences that so hoped maybe some other people would be like oh snap, that looks awesome, let me get on it. I've gotten a ton of flack over this question, but as long as people walk away knowing how effective HIIT can be it's worth it IMO. Cont..

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:42 PM

What kind of HIIT protocol do you do?

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:32 PM

@Stephen - I 100% agree that HIIT is great. I do it occasionally and have always been meaning to make it a more regular part of my routine. If nothing else, this thread will serve as a kick in the pants to do that sooner rather than later, so thank you for that.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:21 PM

Significantly increasing insulin sensitivity in a few weeks can be. http://pcosinfo.wordpress.com/news-research/hiit/ . I started HIIT a few months ago and have since got my sister, brother in law and my 62 year old dad all doing some HIIT with good results. I know you're checking out cbl and I'd really encourage, bro to bro, to try a HIIT protocol similar to sprint 8 just for 4 weeks. The hormonal effect and body Recomposition you'll experience will be worth it 100% both in the short term and long term health.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:15 PM

I'm not going to even begin to re-hash that battle royale, I just want to let mike t know that me/my dad/sister have never been exceptionally athletic and that some of that is genetic, some of that is Epigenetic though. Diet and certain vitamins can change the way your genes are expressed, so can hormones, certain activities and exercising. HIIT increases leptin sensitivity, insulin sensitivity vo2 max and lowers blood glucose levels significantly. http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-iranian-hiit-solution-three-200m.html?m=1 . You read my hands down, so ik you know how important (cont)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:01 PM

Removing my downvote not because I agree, but because I explained why I disagree, and you explained why you disagree, so there's no point in leaving it up there.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:51 PM

I'm cool with that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:50 PM

yes, that it is true, and unfortunately you can see many trainers with in bad shape giving out fitness advice. ALright, bro. I see your point. I'm being unnecessarily testy. The point is I disagree that HIIT can be done consistently without carbs for proper repair. YOu can throw studies at me, but I won't care because it's not my experience and it's not what I observe in real athletes. I'm stubborn, and that's what it amounts to.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:49 PM

I'm definitely not a nutrition expert or a fitness expert, and I don't claim to be. I don't think that is a requirement to post on this forum. This thread has clearly gone way off course. I believe some of my points above have still been unanswered, and I'd be happy to continue discussion should you wish to, but we also just may have fundamental disagreements. The effort we'd have to put into getting anywhere here may not be worth any insights we uncover.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 07:46 PM

@foreveryoung, I definitely do not discredit your experience and appreciate the removal of your downvote. :) Mine is obviously more evidence based research. I agree carbs are essential, but most on the carb argument argue to what extent (which has never been determined to my knowledge - if you know the exact amount please share). @Stephen, again studies do not prove anything, they suggest more research is needed in a particular area to vouch for the results demonstrated when certain conditions are present. . I'll be more careful with more wording if it helps.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:46 PM

Re "what is naturally athletic" - I was not born with much if any natural athleticism. Neither of my parents were athletic. Any sport that I've gotten decent at has required a lot of time and practice. Given an unlimited of practice/coaching, I don't think I would have had the potential to be any sort of professional athlete. There are things I'm good at and things I'm not good at. Sports are generally one of the things I'm not good at. I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm in pretty good shape, but just due to proper diet, lifting weights and other exercise. (continued)

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:43 PM

I'm definitely not giving out sport advice. I'm simply responding to your comment to my own response to the question above. If this were a thread about how to row a boat or kick a soccer ball, I'd definitely agree that experience doing those activities would be helpful. I'd be happy to have this discussion shirtless (as homoerotic as that would be), though I still don't think my willingness to do so would lend much if any credibility to my message. Walk around any big box gym, and you can see many trainers in great shape giving out horrible lifting and nutrition advice. (continued)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:32 PM

You're not naturally athletic? WTF does that mean. This any anonymous fat ass uneducated guy (not saying you're any of these things) can be an expert on fitness or nutrition or the two combined is absolutely ridiculous.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:30 PM

I don't care whether or not you eat a low carb diet and I wasn't assuming you did or did not. And, well, yes I think having some credentials as either an athlete or someone who is in good shape or someone who has tried eating VLC as an athlete IS required (and ideally all three) for someone to comment on a thread. Ever hear the saying don't take nutrition advice from someone who isn't willing to teach it to you with their shirt off? (Paul Chek says it in about every one of his videos). In the same vane, it's prbably not the best idea to take sport x advice from someone who doesn't play sport x

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:26 PM

@hackadoodle82, the study you described is inadequate to prove vlc and HIIT can be performed together. It is 4 minutes at 90% max heart rate. After 1 minute you are performing aerobically, HIIT training should be maximum intensity and it should be an anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic activities run on glucose and then lactic acid. If these subjects were able to do 10 bouts at 4 minutes each this sounds like regular cardio, even if the researchers were calling it HIIT.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:25 PM

It is just obviously my perosnal experience and what I observe with real world athletes and fitness professionals that carbs are ubiquitously eaten to fuel recovery.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:24 PM

lifter, and tennis player that carbs are ESSENTIAL for proper recovery from exercise. If you can't recover you can't do the exercise consistently.k I have been hospitalized for anorexia reaching 58lbs and have gained close to 100lbs of that back in solid muscle (and bone!). I have tried rowing 2ks (sprints) on a VLC diet (sub 20 grams a day) and it doesn't work. It doesn't work because you're muscles don't contract forcefully without glucose. Sure you can run a marathon because that's falling forward and does not require forceful muscle contraction, but you can't do HIIT with consistency.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:21 PM

Yo I removed my downvote. I didn't look at the study because I got caught up responding to something else. I wasn't going by studies, but by personal experience, by my knowledge of basic introductory level science, and my observations of Olympic sprinters, oarsman (I row lightweight crew), and fitness models (people who regularly implement HIIT in both the form of weights and sprinting regularly). Every one of these people eat carbs and recognize their importance in recovery. It is my experience as a collegiate lightweight oarsman, and a highschool varsity soccer player, a recreational weight

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:18 PM

When I say consume extra protein for conversion to glucose (in addition to protein consumed for muscle maintenance), I don't think that is the same as breaking down muscle to turn the muscle into glucose. Can't protein be converted directly into glucose? Isn't that what gluconeogenesis is? I never thought the protein had to be first made into muscle that was then broken down into glucose. Is that what you're saying?

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:15 PM

You assume that I eat or used to eat low carb. I don't and have haven't. I am not, nor have I ever been a competitive athlete. Honestly, I'm not naturally athletic at all. Though, I'm not sure I'd agree that being a collegiate athlete (or an avatar pic showing abs) should be considered credentials in these types of discussions. We will have to agree to disagree on whether or not I'm using my brain as that would be difficult to debate. Given the tone of your responses, I doubt this discussion will bear any fruit, but I am glad you were able to turn caps locks back off. (continued)

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 07:13 PM

you are missing the point, foreveryoung. the results are not significant statistically or clinically because they are the exact same results as you would see in the same population if they were doing any other exercise program. I did not imply I wanted healthy people in any study, that is your misinterpretation. If you read the second study I posted, the two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as other research HAS shown. once again, I think we need to keep an open mind when research is telling us or perhaps reminding us that conclusions are not drawn here, only anecdotal data at best.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:12 PM

I'm just saying, I hope you're not just speaking out of your ass.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:09 PM

You're not scientist, so were you a competitive athlete at the collegiate level...or higher? Did fueling that activity on a low carb hydrate diet work for you? IF you weren't a competitive athlete, do you even have a nice body? What sort of credentials do you have?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:08 PM

Dude, you're not using your brain. breaking down fat and breaking down muscle are not being catabolic and anabolic on the same cell. Breaking down a muscle to turn into into glucose to fuel the muscle and then rebuild it is being catabolic and anabolic on the same cell. When you exercise, you want to cause microscopic tears in teh muscle, but you don't want to use the muscle to fuel it for it's exercise.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:04 PM

@foreveryoung - That also seems to be the goal behind a LeanGains type protocol which I'm sure you're familiar with. I'm not sure why that couldn't be accomplished with excess protein converted to glucose rather than consuming glucose. At least it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I will admit though, I am not a scientist.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:02 PM

@foreveryoung - Sorry, didn't mean to throw you into all caps. Please take a look at the study Stephen references above. It seems the subjects both lost fat (catabolic) and gained muscle (anabolic)?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:58 PM

@ Mike T- NO I DO NOT HAVE A STUDY TO BACK IT UP BUT I HAVE BOTH ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCE TO KNOW THAT YOU CANNOT BE CATABOLIC (BE BREAKING DOWN PROTEIN TO TO FUEL GLYCOLYTIC ACTIVITY) AND ANABOLIC (USING THAT PROTEIN TO BUILD AND REPAIR THE BODY) AT THE SAME TIME.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:55 PM

The summary is somewhat misleading: when you look at the main text, you can see that it's 9 times greater only once adjusted for energy expenditure. I don't think it's 3 HIIT protocols, they just have both long/short protocols do steady state at the beginning to ease them into it.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:51 PM

The summary is somewhat misleading: when you look at the main text, you can see that it's 9 times greater only once adjusted for energy expenditure. And also if you read the study you'll see that they did 30 minutes at 70%HR *AND* did 10-15 intervals of 15-30secs duration.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:47 PM

I re read it a couple times now, and it appears that for the HIIT group they had 3 different protocols, one at 70%! Then a short duration interval and a long duration interval all compared to the et group. Maybe you can make sense of it to me, but tbh I don't even understand what their HIIT protocol is.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:43 PM

@foreveryoung - You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Though, logically, this being the "best discussion thread about exercise" does not prove that the question was worded perfectly. This thread could have become the "best discussion thread about exercise" in spite of the wording of the question AND/OR perhaps with a more open-minded wording of the question, the discussion thread could have been even better, maybe transcending to the "super-duper best discussion thread about exercise"

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:40 PM

But you are right in that this study shows no statistically significant effect in body weight over the 20 weeks. So, even though they lost significant body fat, since they didn't lose significant body Weight you're technically right. And dude, the HIIT group performed 30 minutes at 70% of max heart rate, they might call this HIIT, but this is not HIIT. HIIT stands for high intensity interval training, they don't appear to even do any intervals and their definition of hi intensity is 70% of mhr, sketch.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:38 PM

@ Mike T- what you say to Stephen about discussion is unwarranted, as this is probably one of the best discussion threads about exercise on the entire site.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:37 PM

@foreveryoung - It actually is low carb. Don't you define a low carb diet by how much carbs you are eating? How else would you define it? Yes, I did read what you wrote above and that was actually what I was responding do. Are you saying that if someone eats more protein than needed for muscle maintenance, the body can't use some for maintenance and some for conversion to glucose? Do you have any source to back that up? It seems counter-intuitive to me.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:34 PM

Not sure why this got downvoted. +1 from me for a reasonable, thoughtful response.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:33 PM

@ Mike T- Well, if they're eating more to fuel gluconeogenesis, then it's not really low carb, is it? Also, did you not bother to read what I wrote above? If you're eating more protein to turn into to fuel, then you're not able to use protein to repair your muscles, and will run yourself into the ground. That's not sustainable. Also, allowing a lot of time to lapse between exercises is not being consistent. Well, it's being consistent at being inconsistent.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:33 PM

The summary at the end of that article said that "in summary.. A High intensity training program induces a greater loss of subcutaneous fat compared with A training programs of moderate intensity" (by a factor of 9). A big point is also going to be that HIIT leads to body Recomposition, wheree instead of body fat the individual now has more lean body mass. This is an exceptional study showing the benefits of HIIT over slow state cardio though. +1

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:29 PM

@foreveryoung - and, even if everything you say above were correct and logical, couldn't someone on VLC just eat more protein to have enough for muscle repair and conversion to glucose? I'm not saying that's necessarily optimal, but it certainly seems possible. And, perhaps one might employ something like that temporarily for digestive issues related to starch and fructose.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:29 PM

@foreveryoung - and, even if everything you say above were correct and logical, couldn't someone on VLC just eat more protein to have enough for muscle repair and conversion to glucose? I'm saying that's necessarily optimal, but it certainly seems possible. And perhaps one might employ something like that temporarily for digestive issues related to starch and fructose.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:28 PM

Second, they are mutually exclusive. HIIT is glycolytic and glycolytic work requires glucose. Results require consistency, and you simply can't be consistent with a glycolytic activity when you're intentionally depriving your body of glucose to "lose weight" or "Get healthy."

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:26 PM

The significance is that it provided better results than Low carb. And when you're that fat and unhealthy, you need better results. Did you want already healthy and fit people? Well, every one of the fit people that i have ever met in my life eats carbs and exercises. Every one. Also, every one with a nice body does too. Or, did you want studies on rodents? WEll, the fastest way to induce obesity and diabetes in rodents is to feed them a high fat diet. So, you're point is not a good one.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:26 PM

@Stephen - You are right that the truth can hurt, but there is a way to state the "truth" that invites productive discussion and there is a way to state the "truth" that closes the door to productive discussion. If you're really looking for input here (especially from those with opposing views) then all I'm saying is you're better off with the former rather than the latter. Of course though, it's completely up to you how you ask your questions.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:24 PM

@foreveryoung - Also, below in your comment to CD you say resistance training is HIIT. Are you saying that no one on a VLC diet is doing proper resistance training? Really???

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:24 PM

@foreveryoung - I don't understand. You now seem to contradict your comments to JayJay below? You say as long as you give your body sufficient time to create its own glucose stores, then you can do HIIT on VLC? That would mean they are not mutually exclusive? Am I misunderstanding your comment below?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:23 PM

The significance is that it provided better results than VLC, and when you're that fat and unhealthy you need better results.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:21 PM

Not to mention that glucose is the only nutrient (yeah, nutrient, not a toxin as Rosedale believes) that reduces cortisol upon consumption.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:16 PM

There's either a huge amount of denial or stupidity that goes on when it comes to VLC and glycolytic activities (i.e. HIIT and system II brain function).

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:16 PM

Downvoted by me, and here's why. You say VLC and HIIT aren't mutually exclusive. well, they are. In order to be successful, you have to be consistent. The fact of the matter is that you cannot be consistent with glycolytic work (HIIT) when you are eating a VLC diet. You need glucose to do it. If you aren't eating it or creating from protein, then you can't do it consistently. Even if you're creating sufficient glucose through protein, you're breaking down muscle every time you do HIIT and not able to use protein for repair. So, you're running yourself into the ground, which isn't sustainable.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:15 PM

@mike's furthermore: Yea, I just disagree that vlc is paleo when paleolithic man's brain would've been programmed to love sweet calorie dense foods. So to me it seems appropriate to remove vlc from paleo dogma. And I'm not saying vlc doesn't work for people, I'm asking if it's inferior, an important distinction. I could take a bike or a car to work, but one will get me there faster. I understand what you're saying about people being offended by it. But the catholic church was offended when Galileo said the earth wasn't the center of the slar system and sometimes truth hurts IMO.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:13 PM

denial or stupidity that revolves around the need for glucose under certain circumstance (i.e. system II brain function and glycolytic exercise).

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:12 PM

Downvoted by me, and here's why. You say VLC and HIIT aren't mutually exclusive. well, they are. In order to be successful, you have to be consistent. The fact of the matter is that you cannot be consistent with glycolytic work (HIIT) when you are eating a VLC diet. You need glucose to do it. If you aren't eating it or creating from protein, then you can't do it consistently. Even if you're creating through protein, you're creating sufficient glucose through protein, you're breaking down muscle every time you do HIIT and not able to use protein for repair. THere's either a huge amount of...

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:53 PM

I appreciate the feedback.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:47 PM

+1, I think you're right that I shouldve added the 'for body Recomposition' part since one of the things that interested me most was that HIIT increased muscle mass about 8-10+% and decreased bf by around 30% in 8 weeks while vlc vlf diets seemed to decrease both bf and muscle mass, while decreasing bf to a lesser extent than HIIT after 2 years (compared to 8 weeks of HIIT). I'm liking your superman avatar by the way, What is your exercise routine, like how many days and intervals of HIIT do you do per week to look like that?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:39 PM

http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/TIPS/exIntesity/Tremblay.pdf HIIT for ~20 weeks leads to 0.1kg weight loss. I'll grant that I can't find a failed long term HIIT study, because there aren't any long term HIIT studies. ;)

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:21 PM

I respectfully disagree that you can easily find studies showing HIIT does nothing for weight loss long term. These two things tend towards mutual exclusivity. I compare these two things because they are often individually done with the same goal in mind.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 02:50 PM

4) Most importantly, comparing 2 cherrypicked studies, one very short term and small, with totally different populations doesn't really tell you anything about anything. You could equally easily find studies showing that exercise does nothing for weight loss long term, whereas low carb causes enormous weight loss in the short term.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 02:48 PM

1) Because they're not antagonistic (let alone mutually exclusive), it's invalid to reason from "[Beneficial exercise] had more effect than [beneficial diet], so we should "smash [beneficial diet] from paleo." 2) It's misleading to conflate the above reasoning with simply comparing two non-competing things. 3) You can compare almost anything you like, the question is whether it's useful. If you posted "Is eating steak more beneficial than not eating dairy?" you'd rightly be met with bewilderment.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 12:59 PM

Regardless of the mutual exclusivity, the studies posted found that a vlc resulted in significant amounts of muscle and fat loss, while HIIT showed more than double the fat loss along with significant muscle mass gains. Since these are two approaches used by the paleo community for weight loss don't you think it's valid to compare them?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:32 AM

Hey, cool man, I didn't even know about that.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:31 AM

Hey, cool man, I didn't even know about this.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:17 AM

Yeah, for stuff like that, you might consider http://www.reddit.com/r/paleo instead.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 11:59 PM

Ps @cd if you like my current question you could be the third person to vote to re-open it ;).

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 11:56 PM

@Matt, I've addressed the apples to oranges argument already by stating that while HIIT and vlc aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, they tend towards mutual exclusivity because of the heavy glucose requirements in protocols like the one I referenced (sprint 8). @cd, I understand and I agree that I should've put more effort into my original pre-edited question.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 11:50 PM

@Mike T's update: that's a fair assessment. I stumbled across this blog post and it clicked in my head that soo many overweight or out of shape individuals here would benefit from this knowledge. And since I had never seen HIIT compared to dieting before I was frankly stunned by the results and it made a lot of sense. If I knew everyone was gonna get so offended by this question I guess I wouldn't of posted it but if you look at my top questions, like hands down 1 and 2 it's basically the same thing, I post a bunch of research and ask a simple question. I appreciate your updated response also.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 08, 2013
at 05:27 PM

Comparing apples and oranges...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:05 PM

@ Chuck- Did you read any of the other comments? Rigorous meaning intense exercise (aka exercises which relies heavily on the krebs cycle to generate energy). Running a marathon at a speed with which you are burning pretty much exclusively fat does not fall under the category of intense. Demanding, yes? Intense? No. Generally, intense exercise requires crisp and hard muscle contractions (for instance, sprinting...or most resistance training). Falling forward at a pace faster than walking (jogging) is not intense.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:41 PM

Your original post is just a blog entry. The research is interesting, it is not authoritative or final, but very interesting. However, the entire post is a very nice blog entry (and if you had a blog I would read it) you are not asking a questions that you need answered, you are making a statement. That is why I voted to close. If you submitted this as an answer to someone who is VLC but struggling to loose weight or gain/maintain mass than it would be an awesome answer. Please don't be offended by the votes to close. As I said, wrt your edits, I would remove my vote if I could.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:39 PM

Stephen, your assumption that the vote to close is way off base. I am not VLC, I do not disdain HIIT. Your original post, "You're overweight, obese and doing vlc, do you realize how much your results could be multiplied by including HIIT?" that is offensive and it is not a real question.

3089dd0b9a8f1d24f1b08d6cc3ca84e3

(363)

on January 08, 2013
at 05:28 AM

Define rigorous ???

3089dd0b9a8f1d24f1b08d6cc3ca84e3

(363)

on January 08, 2013
at 05:22 AM

You are 110% correct and i support u all the way , vlc is a wipe out recipe when trying to train hard , many will say well why train hard , some of us love to train hard as i myself and vlc DOES NOT SUSTAIN that , cause huge losses in muscle mass and decreases in perormance no matter what any guru says m great question stephen

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 04:22 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seems to drop muscle mass along with body fat. HIIT seems to decrease body fat (to a greater extent in less than 1/10th the time) while Increasing muscle mass. So to me it just makes more sense to do HIIT and a regular whole foods diet as opposed to a vlc diet. Assuming that somebody is here for health reasons, they should know that HIIT will be more helpful than vlc for Body comp, and that it can be taxing to do HIIT+vlc since HIIT is extremely glucose depleting. So even though HIIT and vlc aren't necessarily exclusive they often are.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 04:12 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seems to drop muscle mass along with body fat. HIIT seems to decrease body fat (to a greater extent in less than 1/10th the time) while Increasing muscle mass. So to me it just makes more sense to do HIIT and a regular whole foods diet as opposed to a vlc diet. But you're right that HIIT and vlc aren't mutually exclusive. I just made the assumption that no normal human being would WANT to do vlc if they could get better results with a different technique is all.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:25 AM

lol...It was definitely saved with a bit of actual conversation.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:18 AM

I do find the study you linked interesting...the same way I found Tabata's original study interesting. It is good stuff.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:17 AM

I don't care if it's not an official question or whatever, this is one of the best threads on here.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:17 AM

And Stephen....as far as VLC vs HIIT you gotta realize that any program were you are eating at a caloric deficit requires two things to keep or increase lean mass while you lose fat. Thing 1: Protein. Protein requirements go up when your eating at a deficit if you wanna keep lean mass. Thing 2: Resistance training....OR...HIIT maybe. I'm not sure that I've seen much on this for HIIT specifically but there is loads of data showing that resistance training retains lean mass when at a deficit.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:13 AM

For the record I'm not even VLC. I still consume closer to 100g of carbs a day. And hell I even had a potato with dinner after my deadlifts yesterday :). I got the superstarch bit from Peter Attai's blog....found it very interesting.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:08 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seemed to drop muscle and fat stores while HIIT seemed to increase muscle while decreasing fat (and to a greater extent). So to me, it just makes so much more sense to do HIIT and eat a whole foods diet that includes carbs than to do a vlc diet. But you're right, that doesn't mean that to get good results you'd necessarily have to do HIIT and exclude vlc to get the benefits. I just assumed that no normal human being would want to do vlc if they could get better results some other way, lol.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:05 AM

Depends on what sort of resistance training you are doing. HIIT is a 100% effort essentially "to failure". Some people perform HIT(resistance)...I do...where you go till failure. If your not going to failure you are likely using a volume approach and I'm not so sure they would be as comparable in that case.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:04 AM

If you are getting chased by a saber tooth tiger enough that you cannot replenish your glycogen stores, you need to rethink your life's choices...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:03 AM

Gotcha. Nice explanation.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:59 AM

I think I agree with JayJay. If you give sufficient time for your body to create its own glucose between exercise, then you're probably fine. You run into problems when you 1) love to exercise 2) are a competitive athelete and/or 3) don't know when the saber tooth tiger is going to come after you.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:59 AM

In addition You could very easily adapt VLC to HIIT with superstarch or other such items. Nobody says you cant manipulate your energy sources particularly around your exercise time. I'm still just saying neither is mutually exclusive. And beyond that each is only a piece of the lifestyle puzzle. There is no ONE SPECIAL THING that will be your silver bullet. There are only various tools and how you use them.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:58 AM

I agree that they have similar effect on the body. I think the difference is that HIIT is typically defined as intense followed by active recovery (like biking slowly, jogging, walking, etc). Resistance training is typically followed by passive rest (i.e. laying on the bench/ flexing in the mirror). For me personally, I think of HIIT as either Tabatas on the bike, or sprints on the track, obviously you could implement a resistance workout in the form of HIIT, but that is how I differentiate in my mind.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:56 AM

You could very easily adapt VLC to HIIT with superstarch or other such items. Nobody says you cant manipulate your energy sources particularly around your exercise time.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:54 AM

I don't know what you or Lalonde does. But, HIT (resistance) done correctly will not take more than 15 minutes of work. Your not likely to burn more than 30g of carbs in that very short time of work. You can get that with the addition of one small potato. Now if you wanna do that intense work everyday or multiple times a day you may need to get some glucose in you, but if your like me and your only doing it 2-3x/week then you have plenty of time to let your glycogen stores refill with just about any eating program you like.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:48 AM

I'm speaking from experience too. I know the feeling. It's what I imagine "bonking" feels like, only it happens really, really fast. YOu feel like you're working your ass off but your muscles are barely contracting. They don't have their needed energy supply.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:46 AM

key word- feel. They FEEL like they're doing intense exercise, but they aren't. Just like an out of shape guy feels like he's going to pass out after running a mile while for a fit guy it's just his warm-up.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:43 AM

Isn't resistance training basically HIIT? It uses the kreps cycle to generate ATP from creatine phosphate (and then glucose, once creatine stores are depleted) in the same manner that HIIT does. I don't understand. Isn't resistance training just another form of HIIT?

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:41 AM

i don't have a strong enough opinion to really debate it, but i would imagine there are people here who are VLC and feel they do undergo rigorous exercise

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:40 AM

That's because high intensity exercise is glycolytic. IT demands glucose. VLC diets are considerably lacking in that department. If it's not glycolytic it's not high intensity. People on VLC just can not push it to the intensity level they to in order to compete. Your body just won't let you go there as our gluconeogenesis pathways don't work fast enough. Additionally, most VLC diets severely limit protein, so even if you could do high intensity glyocolytic exercise, it wouldn't be repeated efforts because you would break down muscle over time and eventually be too weak for your competitors

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:39 AM

That's because high intensity exercise is glycolytic. IT demands glucose. VLC diets are considerably lacking in that department. If it's not glycolytic it's not high intensity. People on VLC just can push it to the intensity level they to in order to compete. Your body just won't let you go there as our gluconeogenesis pathways don't work fast enough. Additionally, most VLC diets severely limit protein, so even if you could do high intensity glyocolytic exercise, it wouldn't be repeated efforts because you would break down muscle over time and eventually be too weak for your competitors.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:36 AM

I see where you're coming from but I do disagree that doing HIIT long term on a low carb diet is realistic. I don't have any studies showing its impossible just n=1 kinda stuff. Mat Lalonde talks about this in one of his podcasts. How he burned out doing low carb with high intensity/resistance training. Personally, I've done vlc and could not perform HIIT without getting extremely torn down. Carbs are not a necessary macronutrient but glycogenesis seems to be inadequate in at least some people for restoring glucose stores while performing HIIT.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:32 AM

You can't maintain intensity on VLC because you burn out too quickly. Ask every Olympian or fitness model.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:28 AM

and even if you assume it's true, the more logical comparison would be rigorous exercise regime + balanced diet compared to rigorous exercise regime + VLC.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:21 AM

maybe OP should have asked "does VLC make HIIT impossible or ineffective?"

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:20 AM

that implies that VLC cannot be a balanced diet, which i'm not sure everyone here agrees with.

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:45 AM

Sorry, but this is definitely not a question. You should have your own blog where you can post these things.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:36 AM

Yea, sometimes I'm thinking something and I just assume everyone else will see it that same way. I had to update it with a beginning paragraph in hindsight though since I realized it could otherwise be a little ambiguous/naive.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:33 AM

your original post, the one I voted to close, was not a legit question. The way it's been reworded, I would remove my close vote if I could. Another strategy would be to post this study as an answer to someone asking if VLC was the best way to loose weight and open the discussion that way.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:19 AM

I genuinely feel like many people ask open ended questions on here, my hands down 1 and 2 were very similar to this where I provided studies and open ended discussion questions based on what I found. I find this a great median to share new information I find where there is a good sized population of relatively informed open minded individuals who wish to better themselves. I think this is a real question, many people here do vlc, and I'm asking of based on the research they might consider HIIT. Just because this is controversial doesn't make it a faux question IMO..

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:13 AM

I see where you're coming from. I see situations though where people do vlc because they want to lose weight or have a general better body composition. Very few people do vlc or paleo for non-health or performance reasons. TF I think it is very fair to tell what might be the majority of people here on this forum that there are techniques to achieve this higher level of health that they can use. While these are 2 very different approaches I feel like they have the same end goal, which is why I've brought this up.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:12 AM

Feel free to vote to close my questions if you don't think they are open questions for discussion though

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:10 AM

I don't disagree with interval training. I do it once or twice a week. I do disagree that you are posting this as a question though.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:06 AM

You've been a member for 6 months CD and with all due respect, only 5 of the 6 questions you've asked have a question mark after them. You've made it clear to me in previous threads that you disagree with HIIT, I can't help but think you are exemplifying your distaste for HIIT unfairly on this thread.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 12:56 AM

This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered! For more Paleo Diet hacks: http://paleohacks.com/faq#ixzz2HLCxojNG Follow us: @PaleoHacks on Twitter | PaleoHacks on Facebook

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 12:26 AM

Lol Man, whoever voted to close this question grow up. You're honestly gonna vote to close a question referencing two studies where the results of vlc vlf are compared with HIIT training? Do you realize how many vlc'ers we have on this thread that might benefit from this knowledge? What percentage of people are on here for better health or to lose fat gain muscle? I'd wager 80+%. This is clearly a real question asking if people are aware of relatively new research done in the last few years as it compares with what many people here are already doing.

  • Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

    asked by

    (10989)
  • Views
    2.5K
  • Last Activity
    1402D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

9 Answers

best answer

0
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on January 08, 2013
at 02:02 AM

Before it closes;

**rigorous exercise regime + balanced diet > VLC.

on counts of greater muscular development, improved hormonal status (HGH production during and after, and over time higher Test levels and lower estrogen levels due to improved body composition...in part because of the HGH response, in part because of the insulin sensitivity, and in part because the better T/E ratio which feeds on itself in a cylce of constantly getting better and better), improved endothelial function, feel-good endorphins, hormetic affects of exercise, character building process of challenging oneself through rigorous exercise tasks, etc, etc, yada yada.

...in my humble opinion.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:46 AM

key word- feel. They FEEL like they're doing intense exercise, but they aren't. Just like an out of shape guy feels like he's going to pass out after running a mile while for a fit guy it's just his warm-up.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:48 AM

I'm speaking from experience too. I know the feeling. It's what I imagine "bonking" feels like, only it happens really, really fast. YOu feel like you're working your ass off but your muscles are barely contracting. They don't have their needed energy supply.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:41 AM

i don't have a strong enough opinion to really debate it, but i would imagine there are people here who are VLC and feel they do undergo rigorous exercise

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:32 AM

You can't maintain intensity on VLC because you burn out too quickly. Ask every Olympian or fitness model.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:40 AM

That's because high intensity exercise is glycolytic. IT demands glucose. VLC diets are considerably lacking in that department. If it's not glycolytic it's not high intensity. People on VLC just can not push it to the intensity level they to in order to compete. Your body just won't let you go there as our gluconeogenesis pathways don't work fast enough. Additionally, most VLC diets severely limit protein, so even if you could do high intensity glyocolytic exercise, it wouldn't be repeated efforts because you would break down muscle over time and eventually be too weak for your competitors

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:28 AM

and even if you assume it's true, the more logical comparison would be rigorous exercise regime + balanced diet compared to rigorous exercise regime + VLC.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:20 AM

that implies that VLC cannot be a balanced diet, which i'm not sure everyone here agrees with.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:21 AM

maybe OP should have asked "does VLC make HIIT impossible or ineffective?"

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:39 AM

That's because high intensity exercise is glycolytic. IT demands glucose. VLC diets are considerably lacking in that department. If it's not glycolytic it's not high intensity. People on VLC just can push it to the intensity level they to in order to compete. Your body just won't let you go there as our gluconeogenesis pathways don't work fast enough. Additionally, most VLC diets severely limit protein, so even if you could do high intensity glyocolytic exercise, it wouldn't be repeated efforts because you would break down muscle over time and eventually be too weak for your competitors.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:05 PM

@ Chuck- Did you read any of the other comments? Rigorous meaning intense exercise (aka exercises which relies heavily on the krebs cycle to generate energy). Running a marathon at a speed with which you are burning pretty much exclusively fat does not fall under the category of intense. Demanding, yes? Intense? No. Generally, intense exercise requires crisp and hard muscle contractions (for instance, sprinting...or most resistance training). Falling forward at a pace faster than walking (jogging) is not intense.

3089dd0b9a8f1d24f1b08d6cc3ca84e3

(363)

on January 08, 2013
at 05:28 AM

Define rigorous ???

14
Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:07 AM

Isn't comparing VLC to HIIT, comparing apples and oranges? One is a way of eating and one is a way of exercising. They aren't mutually exclusive.


UPDATE: Based on the discussions in this thread, I think what you are actually trying to prove is:

  1. VLC makes it impossible to do HIIT properly
  2. Eating some carbs and doing HIIT properly is more effective at burning fat/building muscle than (eating VLC and doing HIIT improperly or eating VLC and doing some other exercise)

I think it's a fair question to ask, but as far as I can tell, the research you linked above does not prove either of these points (even though I doubt anyone here is going to argue that HIIT isn't a good way to exercise).

Also, I think it's always important to keep in mind that different people have different starting points and different goals. It's possible that the best/easiest strategy to move from 40 to 30% body fat is different from the best/easiest strategy to move from 15 to 10% body fat.


FURTHERMORE: VLC has clearly worked for many people here in helping them to lose significant weight, improve body composition, feel better, etc. That could be because of the effect of carbs on insulin, or because of reduced food reward, or because of calorie reduction, or something else, but it doesn't matter. It's worked for them, and statements like "Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma?" are probably not an effective way to bring those people into a constructive conversation whether or not there could have been an easier strategy for them to employ.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 01:13 AM

I see where you're coming from. I see situations though where people do vlc because they want to lose weight or have a general better body composition. Very few people do vlc or paleo for non-health or performance reasons. TF I think it is very fair to tell what might be the majority of people here on this forum that there are techniques to achieve this higher level of health that they can use. While these are 2 very different approaches I feel like they have the same end goal, which is why I've brought this up.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:31 AM

Hey, cool man, I didn't even know about this.

3089dd0b9a8f1d24f1b08d6cc3ca84e3

(363)

on January 08, 2013
at 05:22 AM

You are 110% correct and i support u all the way , vlc is a wipe out recipe when trying to train hard , many will say well why train hard , some of us love to train hard as i myself and vlc DOES NOT SUSTAIN that , cause huge losses in muscle mass and decreases in perormance no matter what any guru says m great question stephen

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 04:22 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seems to drop muscle mass along with body fat. HIIT seems to decrease body fat (to a greater extent in less than 1/10th the time) while Increasing muscle mass. So to me it just makes more sense to do HIIT and a regular whole foods diet as opposed to a vlc diet. Assuming that somebody is here for health reasons, they should know that HIIT will be more helpful than vlc for Body comp, and that it can be taxing to do HIIT+vlc since HIIT is extremely glucose depleting. So even though HIIT and vlc aren't necessarily exclusive they often are.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:17 AM

Yeah, for stuff like that, you might consider http://www.reddit.com/r/paleo instead.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 04:12 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seems to drop muscle mass along with body fat. HIIT seems to decrease body fat (to a greater extent in less than 1/10th the time) while Increasing muscle mass. So to me it just makes more sense to do HIIT and a regular whole foods diet as opposed to a vlc diet. But you're right that HIIT and vlc aren't mutually exclusive. I just made the assumption that no normal human being would WANT to do vlc if they could get better results with a different technique is all.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 11:50 PM

@Mike T's update: that's a fair assessment. I stumbled across this blog post and it clicked in my head that soo many overweight or out of shape individuals here would benefit from this knowledge. And since I had never seen HIIT compared to dieting before I was frankly stunned by the results and it made a lot of sense. If I knew everyone was gonna get so offended by this question I guess I wouldn't of posted it but if you look at my top questions, like hands down 1 and 2 it's basically the same thing, I post a bunch of research and ask a simple question. I appreciate your updated response also.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 09, 2013
at 12:32 AM

Hey, cool man, I didn't even know about that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:16 PM

There's either a huge amount of denial or stupidity that goes on when it comes to VLC and glycolytic activities (i.e. HIIT and system II brain function).

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:58 PM

@ Mike T- NO I DO NOT HAVE A STUDY TO BACK IT UP BUT I HAVE BOTH ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCE TO KNOW THAT YOU CANNOT BE CATABOLIC (BE BREAKING DOWN PROTEIN TO TO FUEL GLYCOLYTIC ACTIVITY) AND ANABOLIC (USING THAT PROTEIN TO BUILD AND REPAIR THE BODY) AT THE SAME TIME.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:29 PM

@foreveryoung - and, even if everything you say above were correct and logical, couldn't someone on VLC just eat more protein to have enough for muscle repair and conversion to glucose? I'm saying that's necessarily optimal, but it certainly seems possible. And perhaps one might employ something like that temporarily for digestive issues related to starch and fructose.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:43 PM

@foreveryoung - You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Though, logically, this being the "best discussion thread about exercise" does not prove that the question was worded perfectly. This thread could have become the "best discussion thread about exercise" in spite of the wording of the question AND/OR perhaps with a more open-minded wording of the question, the discussion thread could have been even better, maybe transcending to the "super-duper best discussion thread about exercise"

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:24 PM

@foreveryoung - I don't understand. You now seem to contradict your comments to JayJay below? You say as long as you give your body sufficient time to create its own glucose stores, then you can do HIIT on VLC? That would mean they are not mutually exclusive? Am I misunderstanding your comment below?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:12 PM

I'm just saying, I hope you're not just speaking out of your ass.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:21 PM

Not to mention that glucose is the only nutrient (yeah, nutrient, not a toxin as Rosedale believes) that reduces cortisol upon consumption.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:04 PM

@foreveryoung - That also seems to be the goal behind a LeanGains type protocol which I'm sure you're familiar with. I'm not sure why that couldn't be accomplished with excess protein converted to glucose rather than consuming glucose. At least it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I will admit though, I am not a scientist.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:16 PM

Them to reach what in my opinion is a higher degree of physical perfection/physical health. So I'd gladly take 100 downvotes on here if one person really changed their life via body Recomposition via HIIT because of this thread. I'd kill to have known this stuff 10 years ago.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:09 PM

You're not scientist, so were you a competitive athlete at the collegiate level...or higher? Did fueling that activity on a low carb hydrate diet work for you? IF you weren't a competitive athlete, do you even have a nice body? What sort of credentials do you have?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:15 PM

I'm not going to even begin to re-hash that battle royale, I just want to let mike t know that me/my dad/sister have never been exceptionally athletic and that some of that is genetic, some of that is Epigenetic though. Diet and certain vitamins can change the way your genes are expressed, so can hormones, certain activities and exercising. HIIT increases leptin sensitivity, insulin sensitivity vo2 max and lowers blood glucose levels significantly. http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-iranian-hiit-solution-three-200m.html?m=1 . You read my hands down, so ik you know how important (cont)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:33 PM

@ Mike T- Well, if they're eating more to fuel gluconeogenesis, then it's not really low carb, is it? Also, did you not bother to read what I wrote above? If you're eating more protein to turn into to fuel, then you're not able to use protein to repair your muscles, and will run yourself into the ground. That's not sustainable. Also, allowing a lot of time to lapse between exercises is not being consistent. Well, it's being consistent at being inconsistent.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:43 PM

I'm definitely not giving out sport advice. I'm simply responding to your comment to my own response to the question above. If this were a thread about how to row a boat or kick a soccer ball, I'd definitely agree that experience doing those activities would be helpful. I'd be happy to have this discussion shirtless (as homoerotic as that would be), though I still don't think my willingness to do so would lend much if any credibility to my message. Walk around any big box gym, and you can see many trainers in great shape giving out horrible lifting and nutrition advice. (continued)

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:18 PM

When I say consume extra protein for conversion to glucose (in addition to protein consumed for muscle maintenance), I don't think that is the same as breaking down muscle to turn the muscle into glucose. Can't protein be converted directly into glucose? Isn't that what gluconeogenesis is? I never thought the protein had to be first made into muscle that was then broken down into glucose. Is that what you're saying?

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:32 PM

@Stephen - I 100% agree that HIIT is great. I do it occasionally and have always been meaning to make it a more regular part of my routine. If nothing else, this thread will serve as a kick in the pants to do that sooner rather than later, so thank you for that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:01 PM

Removing my downvote not because I agree, but because I explained why I disagree, and you explained why you disagree, so there's no point in leaving it up there.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:16 PM

Downvoted by me, and here's why. You say VLC and HIIT aren't mutually exclusive. well, they are. In order to be successful, you have to be consistent. The fact of the matter is that you cannot be consistent with glycolytic work (HIIT) when you are eating a VLC diet. You need glucose to do it. If you aren't eating it or creating from protein, then you can't do it consistently. Even if you're creating sufficient glucose through protein, you're breaking down muscle every time you do HIIT and not able to use protein for repair. So, you're running yourself into the ground, which isn't sustainable.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:15 PM

You assume that I eat or used to eat low carb. I don't and have haven't. I am not, nor have I ever been a competitive athlete. Honestly, I'm not naturally athletic at all. Though, I'm not sure I'd agree that being a collegiate athlete (or an avatar pic showing abs) should be considered credentials in these types of discussions. We will have to agree to disagree on whether or not I'm using my brain as that would be difficult to debate. Given the tone of your responses, I doubt this discussion will bear any fruit, but I am glad you were able to turn caps locks back off. (continued)

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:15 PM

@mike's furthermore: Yea, I just disagree that vlc is paleo when paleolithic man's brain would've been programmed to love sweet calorie dense foods. So to me it seems appropriate to remove vlc from paleo dogma. And I'm not saying vlc doesn't work for people, I'm asking if it's inferior, an important distinction. I could take a bike or a car to work, but one will get me there faster. I understand what you're saying about people being offended by it. But the catholic church was offended when Galileo said the earth wasn't the center of the slar system and sometimes truth hurts IMO.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 10:30 PM

@ Stephen- It wasn't because of this thread but I changed my life with HIIT (combo of resistance training and sprints). Gained a lot of health and lean body mass with it. Also, a very simple answer to the question "is HIIT better than VLC?" is to simply compare your average very low carber with your average track and field athlete.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:13 PM

denial or stupidity that revolves around the need for glucose under certain circumstance (i.e. system II brain function and glycolytic exercise).

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:46 PM

Re "what is naturally athletic" - I was not born with much if any natural athleticism. Neither of my parents were athletic. Any sport that I've gotten decent at has required a lot of time and practice. Given an unlimited of practice/coaching, I don't think I would have had the potential to be any sort of professional athlete. There are things I'm good at and things I'm not good at. Sports are generally one of the things I'm not good at. I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm in pretty good shape, but just due to proper diet, lifting weights and other exercise. (continued)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:32 PM

You're not naturally athletic? WTF does that mean. This any anonymous fat ass uneducated guy (not saying you're any of these things) can be an expert on fitness or nutrition or the two combined is absolutely ridiculous.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:37 PM

@foreveryoung - It actually is low carb. Don't you define a low carb diet by how much carbs you are eating? How else would you define it? Yes, I did read what you wrote above and that was actually what I was responding do. Are you saying that if someone eats more protein than needed for muscle maintenance, the body can't use some for maintenance and some for conversion to glucose? Do you have any source to back that up? It seems counter-intuitive to me.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:30 PM

I don't care whether or not you eat a low carb diet and I wasn't assuming you did or did not. And, well, yes I think having some credentials as either an athlete or someone who is in good shape or someone who has tried eating VLC as an athlete IS required (and ideally all three) for someone to comment on a thread. Ever hear the saying don't take nutrition advice from someone who isn't willing to teach it to you with their shirt off? (Paul Chek says it in about every one of his videos). In the same vane, it's prbably not the best idea to take sport x advice from someone who doesn't play sport x

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:14 PM

It's my opinion that we, as a world, need a strong and healthy population and HIIT, has helped me tremendously to be the strong willed kinda person who I want to be. There's something empowering about giving something your all and then knowing you can rest because you did everything you coulda done. I'm not going to pretend that HIIT is the sole pillar holding the fountain of youth, but it is an extremely important part of the equation from my perspective and I know that there re a ton of people on ph and on google who will eventually benefit from the rchove of questions like this encouraging

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 10:29 PM

@ Stephen- It wasn't because of this thread but I changed my life with HIIT (combo of resistance training and sprints). Gained a lot of health and lean body mass with it. Also, a very simple answer to the question "is HIIT better than VLC" is to simply look at your average sprinter and then look at your average low carber. I think there you have your answer.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:12 PM

Downvoted by me, and here's why. You say VLC and HIIT aren't mutually exclusive. well, they are. In order to be successful, you have to be consistent. The fact of the matter is that you cannot be consistent with glycolytic work (HIIT) when you are eating a VLC diet. You need glucose to do it. If you aren't eating it or creating from protein, then you can't do it consistently. Even if you're creating through protein, you're creating sufficient glucose through protein, you're breaking down muscle every time you do HIIT and not able to use protein for repair. THere's either a huge amount of...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:08 PM

Dude, you're not using your brain. breaking down fat and breaking down muscle are not being catabolic and anabolic on the same cell. Breaking down a muscle to turn into into glucose to fuel the muscle and then rebuild it is being catabolic and anabolic on the same cell. When you exercise, you want to cause microscopic tears in teh muscle, but you don't want to use the muscle to fuel it for it's exercise.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:49 PM

I'm definitely not a nutrition expert or a fitness expert, and I don't claim to be. I don't think that is a requirement to post on this forum. This thread has clearly gone way off course. I believe some of my points above have still been unanswered, and I'd be happy to continue discussion should you wish to, but we also just may have fundamental disagreements. The effort we'd have to put into getting anywhere here may not be worth any insights we uncover.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:29 PM

@foreveryoung - and, even if everything you say above were correct and logical, couldn't someone on VLC just eat more protein to have enough for muscle repair and conversion to glucose? I'm not saying that's necessarily optimal, but it certainly seems possible. And, perhaps one might employ something like that temporarily for digestive issues related to starch and fructose.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 13, 2013
at 06:02 PM

I hope everyone is able to keep an open mind and continue to read the research that is coming open on Pubmed. I also hope these kinds of questions don't get closed in the future. I'm happy to have civil discussion from a research perspective, even if I'm not a competitive athlete or natural athlete like some of you fellas on here :) I'm just a nerd and am happy to look things up.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:21 PM

Significantly increasing insulin sensitivity in a few weeks can be. http://pcosinfo.wordpress.com/news-research/hiit/ . I started HIIT a few months ago and have since got my sister, brother in law and my 62 year old dad all doing some HIIT with good results. I know you're checking out cbl and I'd really encourage, bro to bro, to try a HIIT protocol similar to sprint 8 just for 4 weeks. The hormonal effect and body Recomposition you'll experience will be worth it 100% both in the short term and long term health.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:24 PM

@foreveryoung - Also, below in your comment to CD you say resistance training is HIIT. Are you saying that no one on a VLC diet is doing proper resistance training? Really???

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:02 PM

@foreveryoung - Sorry, didn't mean to throw you into all caps. Please take a look at the study Stephen references above. It seems the subjects both lost fat (catabolic) and gained muscle (anabolic)?

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:51 PM

I'm cool with that.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:10 PM

The main reason I posted this and had a comparison to HIIT is because a) vlc gives people a point of reference that they can really understand since a lot of people here have at least tried vlc, myself included. And b) I've noticed such great results and the science seems to support my and experiences that so hoped maybe some other people would be like oh snap, that looks awesome, let me get on it. I've gotten a ton of flack over this question, but as long as people walk away knowing how effective HIIT can be it's worth it IMO. Cont..

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:26 PM

@Stephen - You are right that the truth can hurt, but there is a way to state the "truth" that invites productive discussion and there is a way to state the "truth" that closes the door to productive discussion. If you're really looking for input here (especially from those with opposing views) then all I'm saying is you're better off with the former rather than the latter. Of course though, it's completely up to you how you ask your questions.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:38 PM

@ Mike T- what you say to Stephen about discussion is unwarranted, as this is probably one of the best discussion threads about exercise on the entire site.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:50 PM

yes, that it is true, and unfortunately you can see many trainers with in bad shape giving out fitness advice. ALright, bro. I see your point. I'm being unnecessarily testy. The point is I disagree that HIIT can be done consistently without carbs for proper repair. YOu can throw studies at me, but I won't care because it's not my experience and it's not what I observe in real athletes. I'm stubborn, and that's what it amounts to.

10
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:25 AM

Dude, this may or may not be a question....but if it is a question its still nonsense. You can be VLC and do HIIT. You can eat high carb and do HIIT. You can do HIIT while eating SAD. You can do HIIT while living on jelly beans. You can do the cabbage diet and HIIT.

Or you can skip HIIT completely and only do HIT resistance with all the above said choices. And on and on....

Get it?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:13 AM

For the record I'm not even VLC. I still consume closer to 100g of carbs a day. And hell I even had a potato with dinner after my deadlifts yesterday :). I got the superstarch bit from Peter Attai's blog....found it very interesting.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:59 AM

In addition You could very easily adapt VLC to HIIT with superstarch or other such items. Nobody says you cant manipulate your energy sources particularly around your exercise time. I'm still just saying neither is mutually exclusive. And beyond that each is only a piece of the lifestyle puzzle. There is no ONE SPECIAL THING that will be your silver bullet. There are only various tools and how you use them.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:08 AM

Yea, I think the point I was trying to make is that vlc seemed to drop muscle and fat stores while HIIT seemed to increase muscle while decreasing fat (and to a greater extent). So to me, it just makes so much more sense to do HIIT and eat a whole foods diet that includes carbs than to do a vlc diet. But you're right, that doesn't mean that to get good results you'd necessarily have to do HIIT and exclude vlc to get the benefits. I just assumed that no normal human being would want to do vlc if they could get better results some other way, lol.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:04 AM

If you are getting chased by a saber tooth tiger enough that you cannot replenish your glycogen stores, you need to rethink your life's choices...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:59 AM

I think I agree with JayJay. If you give sufficient time for your body to create its own glucose between exercise, then you're probably fine. You run into problems when you 1) love to exercise 2) are a competitive athelete and/or 3) don't know when the saber tooth tiger is going to come after you.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:56 AM

You could very easily adapt VLC to HIIT with superstarch or other such items. Nobody says you cant manipulate your energy sources particularly around your exercise time.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:18 AM

I do find the study you linked interesting...the same way I found Tabata's original study interesting. It is good stuff.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:36 AM

I see where you're coming from but I do disagree that doing HIIT long term on a low carb diet is realistic. I don't have any studies showing its impossible just n=1 kinda stuff. Mat Lalonde talks about this in one of his podcasts. How he burned out doing low carb with high intensity/resistance training. Personally, I've done vlc and could not perform HIIT without getting extremely torn down. Carbs are not a necessary macronutrient but glycogenesis seems to be inadequate in at least some people for restoring glucose stores while performing HIIT.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:17 AM

And Stephen....as far as VLC vs HIIT you gotta realize that any program were you are eating at a caloric deficit requires two things to keep or increase lean mass while you lose fat. Thing 1: Protein. Protein requirements go up when your eating at a deficit if you wanna keep lean mass. Thing 2: Resistance training....OR...HIIT maybe. I'm not sure that I've seen much on this for HIIT specifically but there is loads of data showing that resistance training retains lean mass when at a deficit.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:54 AM

I don't know what you or Lalonde does. But, HIT (resistance) done correctly will not take more than 15 minutes of work. Your not likely to burn more than 30g of carbs in that very short time of work. You can get that with the addition of one small potato. Now if you wanna do that intense work everyday or multiple times a day you may need to get some glucose in you, but if your like me and your only doing it 2-3x/week then you have plenty of time to let your glycogen stores refill with just about any eating program you like.

8
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:40 AM

Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma?

No, VLC is not dogma, it is a dietary choice. Some people do better on VLC, some on higher carb -- Why be prescriptive? Let people decide what works best for them.

Is it time we embrace truly superior lifestyle choices like HIIT in its place?

Not sure I agree that people have not "embraced" HIIT. Pretty much every post I read about exercise suggests some time of HIIT as a supplement to resistance training.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:05 AM

Depends on what sort of resistance training you are doing. HIIT is a 100% effort essentially "to failure". Some people perform HIT(resistance)...I do...where you go till failure. If your not going to failure you are likely using a volume approach and I'm not so sure they would be as comparable in that case.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:58 AM

I agree that they have similar effect on the body. I think the difference is that HIIT is typically defined as intense followed by active recovery (like biking slowly, jogging, walking, etc). Resistance training is typically followed by passive rest (i.e. laying on the bench/ flexing in the mirror). For me personally, I think of HIIT as either Tabatas on the bike, or sprints on the track, obviously you could implement a resistance workout in the form of HIIT, but that is how I differentiate in my mind.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 02:43 AM

Isn't resistance training basically HIIT? It uses the kreps cycle to generate ATP from creatine phosphate (and then glucose, once creatine stores are depleted) in the same manner that HIIT does. I don't understand. Isn't resistance training just another form of HIIT?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 08, 2013
at 03:03 AM

Gotcha. Nice explanation.

5
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 11:36 AM

This is a completely invalid question: you can't compare a diet choice to an exercise choice. Also, I don't think it's true that VLC is (somewhat) at odds with HIIT. I've done HIIT for years, while being VLC.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 02:50 PM

4) Most importantly, comparing 2 cherrypicked studies, one very short term and small, with totally different populations doesn't really tell you anything about anything. You could equally easily find studies showing that exercise does nothing for weight loss long term, whereas low carb causes enormous weight loss in the short term.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:39 PM

http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/TIPS/exIntesity/Tremblay.pdf HIIT for ~20 weeks leads to 0.1kg weight loss. I'll grant that I can't find a failed long term HIIT study, because there aren't any long term HIIT studies. ;)

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 02:48 PM

1) Because they're not antagonistic (let alone mutually exclusive), it's invalid to reason from "[Beneficial exercise] had more effect than [beneficial diet], so we should "smash [beneficial diet] from paleo." 2) It's misleading to conflate the above reasoning with simply comparing two non-competing things. 3) You can compare almost anything you like, the question is whether it's useful. If you posted "Is eating steak more beneficial than not eating dairy?" you'd rightly be met with bewilderment.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 12:59 PM

Regardless of the mutual exclusivity, the studies posted found that a vlc resulted in significant amounts of muscle and fat loss, while HIIT showed more than double the fat loss along with significant muscle mass gains. Since these are two approaches used by the paleo community for weight loss don't you think it's valid to compare them?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:47 PM

I re read it a couple times now, and it appears that for the HIIT group they had 3 different protocols, one at 70%! Then a short duration interval and a long duration interval all compared to the et group. Maybe you can make sense of it to me, but tbh I don't even understand what their HIIT protocol is.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:51 PM

The summary is somewhat misleading: when you look at the main text, you can see that it's 9 times greater only once adjusted for energy expenditure. And also if you read the study you'll see that they did 30 minutes at 70%HR *AND* did 10-15 intervals of 15-30secs duration.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:21 PM

I respectfully disagree that you can easily find studies showing HIIT does nothing for weight loss long term. These two things tend towards mutual exclusivity. I compare these two things because they are often individually done with the same goal in mind.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:55 PM

The summary is somewhat misleading: when you look at the main text, you can see that it's 9 times greater only once adjusted for energy expenditure. I don't think it's 3 HIIT protocols, they just have both long/short protocols do steady state at the beginning to ease them into it.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 08:42 PM

What kind of HIIT protocol do you do?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 13, 2013
at 12:44 AM

BTW stephen I in part pointed this out in comments under my answer, but your HIIT protocol really is absolutely PERFECT for pairing with low carb or VLC eating. How much glycogen to you suppose you go through doing HIIT for 4 minutes (tabata)...or even your 20 minute version? Seriously if you look into HIT resistance protocols like Body by Science (Doug McGuff) or Drew Bayes or Fred Hann many of them are also low carb proponents because the briefness of the protocol...although glycolytic....lends itself well to VLC/LC due to the short time frame leading to very little overall glycogen need.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:40 PM

But you are right in that this study shows no statistically significant effect in body weight over the 20 weeks. So, even though they lost significant body fat, since they didn't lose significant body Weight you're technically right. And dude, the HIIT group performed 30 minutes at 70% of max heart rate, they might call this HIIT, but this is not HIIT. HIIT stands for high intensity interval training, they don't appear to even do any intervals and their definition of hi intensity is 70% of mhr, sketch.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:33 PM

The summary at the end of that article said that "in summary.. A High intensity training program induces a greater loss of subcutaneous fat compared with A training programs of moderate intensity" (by a factor of 9). A big point is also going to be that HIIT leads to body Recomposition, wheree instead of body fat the individual now has more lean body mass. This is an exceptional study showing the benefits of HIIT over slow state cardio though. +1

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 13, 2013
at 12:48 AM

I'd speculate 10-30g max for your 20 minutes of HIIT. As long as your only doing this 3x/week there is more than enough time to replenish glycogen stores. Even though VLC'er have less muscle glycogen on average than normal or high carb dieters they still carry a couple to a few hundred grams of glycogen and have shifted their energy usage systems to conserve this glycogen in times its not needed, making it available for that sprint.

3
Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on January 12, 2013
at 04:43 PM

Maybe you should have rephrased your question...

Is HIIT better than a VLC diet for body recomposition, could HIIT be maintained on VLC diet?

Though I must admit even just trying to combine these two things into an actual question is difficult. Maybe it would have been better to start with the options of what is best for body recomposition:

A: HIIT alone
B: HIIT + General Paleo
C: HIIT + VLC Paleo
D: VLC Paleo alone
E: General Paleo alone

But again are we talking about just losing bodyfat or body-recomposition (gaining muscle mass)?

Because you can lose bodyfat via dietary intervention without any more exercise then everyday functioning, VLC Paleo for many does exactly that. If you want to gain muscle mass (at a perceivable rate) you have to do more than everyday functioning exercise. If you choose to utilise HIIT, then the question becomes what diet is best for HIIT, and your question becomes is VLC Paleo best for HIIT longterm? It appears that if you are beginning to move away from mere body-recomposition and towards performance goals, VLC Paleo may not be the best thing, especially if you need explosive bursts of performance which is typical of HIIT.

If you are interested, I personally do VLC Paleo on rest/complementary days, and General Paleo on my HIIT days. At my current performance level eating some starch two to three times a week post-workout provides me enough fire to keep my intensity high, the general health benefits, and VLC Paleo the rest of time keeps me feeling good and feeling like I am doing well with recomposition. Personally I see little longterm benefit in just eating VLC Paleo over utilising starches specifically; especially if you want to pack on muscle.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:47 PM

+1, I think you're right that I shouldve added the 'for body Recomposition' part since one of the things that interested me most was that HIIT increased muscle mass about 8-10+% and decreased bf by around 30% in 8 weeks while vlc vlf diets seemed to decrease both bf and muscle mass, while decreasing bf to a lesser extent than HIIT after 2 years (compared to 8 weeks of HIIT). I'm liking your superman avatar by the way, What is your exercise routine, like how many days and intervals of HIIT do you do per week to look like that?

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on January 12, 2013
at 09:13 PM

Thanks! I put some detail in a previous answer: http://paleohacks.com/questions/143056/hiit-and-bodyweight-workout-frequency-at-home/143068#143068

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:26 PM

This was my second choice for best answer, unfortunately idk how or if I can split a bounty, but I just wanna Ty again for this response.

3
874ff271ca3379984344d5f9f760fec3

on January 12, 2013
at 09:55 AM

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance

Dr. Attia: "So how did my performance change over the final 12 weeks of my nutritional experiment, when I was in a state of ketosis? The table below summarizes my findings, but let me add a bit of commentary."

Pre and post VLCdoes-this-article-and-do-these-studies-show-that-vlc-(diet-in-general)-is-inferior-to-hiit-(for-body-recomposition)?n=1 but we're all designed to burn fat.

2
4411793ca713a4836dc298d4844f6494

(50)

on January 18, 2013
at 01:59 PM

This is a load of BS. VLC diets work perfect for HIIT training. Please show some real research because n=1 experiments do not mean anything..?

In this study 8 elite gymnasts are performing perfectly on a ketogenic diet. If you know the sport, you will know that it is HIIT a like. These athletes perform in short super intesive intervals of exercise and heavy work, just like when you do HIIT. The study concludes that the Ketogenic diet works as good as another.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:14 PM

Even if vlc works perfect with HIIT, when comparing them in isolation I show that HIIT works better than vlc for fat loss and muscle gains by a significant margin. There are two clinical studies in my question so this clearly isn't n=1, do you know what n=1 means? I don't know what training for elite gymnasts is like and since they don't me ton the intensity of these athlete's training in the study you referenced you also cannot say with accuracy what these athlete's training was like, much less assert they were HIIT training.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 18, 2013
at 03:15 PM

Don't mention the intensity*

1
F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 05:42 PM

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the statistic or clinical significance of a study on 11 overweight people who had an exercise program introduced who were otherwise sedentary with crap cholesterol and high bf percentages. After reading the study carefully their results were what I would expect from any person beginning an exercise program who has otherwise been sedentary. A study of such a small sample is anecdotal at best and while I admire the researchers for their attention to detail with regard to standards of measurement (cholesterol, demographics, body fat percentage, BMI, etc.), I'm sure they know that all their study "suggests" is that more research is needed.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. As someone else suggested, the two are not mutually exclusive, but perhaps synergistic. It's diet AND exercise, not one better than the other. yes we know HIIT is great for people with limited time and for fat loss AND low carb has benefits as well. Why exclude one from the other or try to suggest one is somehow better?

there is a lot of research being done right now, so I think we need to keep an open mind on the subject. research goes back and forth all the time! here's one example that includes both (yes the sample is again small, but obviously research is ongoing) http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00421-010-1571-y

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 07:46 PM

@foreveryoung, I definitely do not discredit your experience and appreciate the removal of your downvote. :) Mine is obviously more evidence based research. I agree carbs are essential, but most on the carb argument argue to what extent (which has never been determined to my knowledge - if you know the exact amount please share). @Stephen, again studies do not prove anything, they suggest more research is needed in a particular area to vouch for the results demonstrated when certain conditions are present. . I'll be more careful with more wording if it helps.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 05:53 PM

I appreciate the feedback.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 11:05 PM

oh and @ Stephen this study will really interest you. Not quite on your HIIT thread, but definitely on the "carb" topic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431985

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:28 PM

Second, they are mutually exclusive. HIIT is glycolytic and glycolytic work requires glucose. Results require consistency, and you simply can't be consistent with a glycolytic activity when you're intentionally depriving your body of glucose to "lose weight" or "Get healthy."

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823

(9402)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:34 PM

Not sure why this got downvoted. +1 from me for a reasonable, thoughtful response.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:23 PM

The significance is that it provided better results than VLC, and when you're that fat and unhealthy you need better results.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:26 PM

@hackadoodle82, the study you described is inadequate to prove vlc and HIIT can be performed together. It is 4 minutes at 90% max heart rate. After 1 minute you are performing aerobically, HIIT training should be maximum intensity and it should be an anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic activities run on glucose and then lactic acid. If these subjects were able to do 10 bouts at 4 minutes each this sounds like regular cardio, even if the researchers were calling it HIIT.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 06:26 PM

The significance is that it provided better results than Low carb. And when you're that fat and unhealthy, you need better results. Did you want already healthy and fit people? Well, every one of the fit people that i have ever met in my life eats carbs and exercises. Every one. Also, every one with a nice body does too. Or, did you want studies on rodents? WEll, the fastest way to induce obesity and diabetes in rodents is to feed them a high fat diet. So, you're point is not a good one.

F0a9dea438e7943fa05da318773e785e

on January 12, 2013
at 07:13 PM

you are missing the point, foreveryoung. the results are not significant statistically or clinically because they are the exact same results as you would see in the same population if they were doing any other exercise program. I did not imply I wanted healthy people in any study, that is your misinterpretation. If you read the second study I posted, the two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as other research HAS shown. once again, I think we need to keep an open mind when research is telling us or perhaps reminding us that conclusions are not drawn here, only anecdotal data at best.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:25 PM

It is just obviously my perosnal experience and what I observe with real world athletes and fitness professionals that carbs are ubiquitously eaten to fuel recovery.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:24 PM

lifter, and tennis player that carbs are ESSENTIAL for proper recovery from exercise. If you can't recover you can't do the exercise consistently.k I have been hospitalized for anorexia reaching 58lbs and have gained close to 100lbs of that back in solid muscle (and bone!). I have tried rowing 2ks (sprints) on a VLC diet (sub 20 grams a day) and it doesn't work. It doesn't work because you're muscles don't contract forcefully without glucose. Sure you can run a marathon because that's falling forward and does not require forceful muscle contraction, but you can't do HIIT with consistency.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 12, 2013
at 07:21 PM

Yo I removed my downvote. I didn't look at the study because I got caught up responding to something else. I wasn't going by studies, but by personal experience, by my knowledge of basic introductory level science, and my observations of Olympic sprinters, oarsman (I row lightweight crew), and fitness models (people who regularly implement HIIT in both the form of weights and sprinting regularly). Every one of these people eat carbs and recognize their importance in recovery. It is my experience as a collegiate lightweight oarsman, and a highschool varsity soccer player, a recreational weight

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!