7

votes

Paleo Summit Hack-a-thon: Nora Gedgaudas, 2/29

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created February 29, 2012 at 2:19 AM

What: The Paleo Summit (see also this post)

Who: Nora Gedgaudas ??? Author, Primal Body-Primal Mind

Topic: Safe Starches: To Eat or Not to Eat? Safe starches have received their fair share of attention ??? and no shortage of controversy ??? in the Paleo blogosphere as of late. The Primal Body-Primal Mind outlines point-by-point why she believes the concept of safe starches is flawed.

What did you think of Nora's presentation?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 12, 2012
at 01:10 AM

Maybe you should do a whole FAQ blog post about it. My assumption is we need carbs because of the other reasons laid out in the PHD and we need them more than babies because our brains are less efficient at using ketones as we age.

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 11, 2012
at 11:46 PM

But the issue is: What is infant food for? More things than just building a brain. Brains aren't made of glucose or galactose, so why is breast milk 40% carbs? If infants need some carbs and not for growth, doesn't that suggest that adults should get some carbs?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 11:09 PM

Scots are currently trying to adapt to a diet of Irn Bru and chips :) Its not working out so well so far though...

725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:58 PM

I think Sean was trying to run it like a conference where speakers make presentations rather than a debate or exchange.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 06, 2012
at 07:55 PM

how do you know toxoplasma gondii isn't changing the way you behave? I don't discount the broad theory that horrible little beasties change our behavior in subtle and perhaps consequential ways (in the aggregate) but taking a hammer to the problem makes about as much sense as exterminating cats and eating only well-done meat.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:54 PM

and now eating a diet of Irn Bru and Chips.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 06, 2012
at 07:52 PM

age set against displayed knowledge, and I know some oldsters are going to disagree, is a good measure of either how much or how little confirmation bias said aged one clings to in the face of data. Everyone holds onto a bit and only a few can identify the exact biases which they consider sacred. That's why you see otherwise intelligent folks get one thing right and another thing horribly wrong.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 06, 2012
at 07:32 PM

Scots wha hae, adapted to a diet of crappy fish and sheep stomachs

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:27 PM

I am not Inuit or Kitavan.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:23 PM

We're not Inuit either.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 06, 2012
at 07:12 PM

I just think that infant metabolism has a specific purpose to build a brain.

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 06, 2012
at 06:51 PM

I don't understand why you think breast milk is not relevant to assessing human nutrient needs because infants utilize ketones. Breast milk doesn't have ketones, the infant manufactures them. Weaning is often not until age 2, so breast milk is evolutionarily selected as a food for toddlers as well as neonates. If neonates use ketones as a substrate for lipid synthesis, ie as a substrate for growth rather than metabolism, then the ketones aren't relevant to adult needs but the sugar content of milk is.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 06, 2012
at 06:31 PM

If I remember correctly, she says they are lean because they eat small portions. So does that mean safe starches are okay, as long as we don't overeat? Thats the conclusion I would come to, but regardless thinks starches are not safe starch, hence why I feel like her explanation is absurd.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 06, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Dragonfly, Nora explains here http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=2296 that Sean just sat there and didn't chime in. He just let her talk and she didn't want "dead air" so she did.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 04, 2012
at 12:10 AM

Looking at Shari's answer, (as well as Evelyn's & Melissa's) I notice that I was also focused on feeling "permission" to enjoy lc/vlc, in the midst of all the higher carb proponents I've been reading lately. This is not my area, so I can't vet her science, but intuitively, it felt right for ME when I was listening. As far as my clients, I always recommend they try different things and see what works for *them*. Funnily enough, yesterday I ate a steak & mashed potatoes & felt fantastic, haha! I think that the type of carbs makes all the difference for me.

627cf3f5d1ddfb4c2f4c96169420f55f

(1621)

on March 01, 2012
at 05:11 PM

Thank you for posting this Melissa! Low carb may work for a lot of people but definitely not for most for an entire lifespan.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 01, 2012
at 04:46 PM

What exactly is her explanation of the Asian Paradox?

078b14042d995aa2ad3cf31a4dcde988

(613)

on March 01, 2012
at 04:08 PM

"I accept my individual responsibility for testing my reaction..." AY-MEN. I am very prone to obsess over parsing out every iota of paleo info I come across, and worrying over whether or not I'm doing it right. How do I feel? How do I function? How are my health markers? I try to remind myself these things will tell me more than any number of hours spent researching to the point of confusion & insanity.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 01:30 PM

Agree, worst explanation of the "Asian Paradox" ever :)

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 01:29 PM

As do I. I agree safe starches are not for everyone but Nora assumes they are not safe for everyone, which is just not the case. Kinda absurd really.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 01, 2012
at 12:48 PM

This is an interesting thought Melissa. I think lots of us who think we even like starches, don't like them, per se, we like some foods with them. For me, white rice or potatoes plain are bleh. Mix them with butter or sour cream or whatever fatty stuff and voila! For me not to gain weight and eat starches, I have to eat them "low fat". Thankfully I find that a pat of butter on a sweet potato goes a long way, but eating starches requires more restraint than not eating them does at times. Never thought about it that way.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 01, 2012
at 12:46 PM

I've read two things about CRON that suggest to me that it's not for me. First, the extension in life span in humans is definitely a question, but it is unlikely that we're talking a lot of years. Second, in order to benefit, you need to have practiced CRON from birth. Certainly leaves me out of that equation!

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:40 AM

I liked her, she made a few good points, but the whole thing just seemed a bit too much. We are ultimate Ice Age being! Just because we can survive with minimal glucose doesn't mean we should. Also I feel like her approach is every is sick, sensitive, intolerant to everything. Not everyone, I know there is still a lot, is sick or metabolically broken.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:36 AM

I liked her, but the whole thing just seemed to much. We are ultimate Ice Age being! Just because we can survive with minimal glucose doesn't mean we should.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Thanks, Sue. I did.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:12 AM

Dragonfly you have clients and dish out advice so need to read what Melissa and Evelyn wrote about Nora.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 11:34 PM

It's sad because she seems like an OK person. She's not rude at all IRL. When I read her book I felt bad that I didn't like it because of the bad sci.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 11:26 PM

I did read quite a lot of Nora's book some time ago but the amount of inaccuracies in it were to annoying to finish it. It just seems that most people don't really care about it even if you tell them...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:38 PM

Melissa - you seem like a very bitter and angry person (and maybe a little hypoglycemic). You might consider that saying that Nora is "lying" is a libelous statement. You also may want to rethink your choice of words. Respectful disagreement is one thing, but hate mongering is something else altogether. It doesn't help the paleo community and it really makes you look bad. And by the way, the stomach acid thing comes from the clinical work and research of Dr. Jonathan Wright. Check out his book, "Stomach Acid is Good For You".

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:32 PM

Poverty drives me into the austere embrace of the humble potato.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:31 PM

Poverty drives me into the loving arms of potatoes.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:22 PM

@Melissa, yep I like a little sweet potato with my butter.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:19 PM

We (meaning Melissa, in this case) shouldn't have to act as fact-checkers. There's barely enough time in the day for doing work, cooking, keeping one's hair perfectly coiffed, etc. Be precise, you presenters!!!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:14 PM

I loved that too. Even though she disagrees with Paul she did so in a very respectful manner and I really appreciated that.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:11 PM

I also happened to read that 1974 article on coprolites recently as Dr. Kruse quoted Nora as a source saying that ancient man ate no plants :) I agree it says nothing of the sort.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Well, isotope data can not tell us how much protein was eaten at all anyway. It can only tell us roughly where in the trophic level the protein that was eaten came from, if that makes sense. http://johnhawks.net/weblog/mailbag/isotopes-diet-2011.html has some useful info (incidentally that email is from Chris and based on an argument we had).

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Oh Melissa, too much knowledge sometimes just leads to increased irritation at the world :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:57 PM

Kamal, you really want to know? (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on February 29, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Just as a logic lark, let's presume Eades interpretation of isotope data is correct. That humans consume more animal food than wolves. But we all know that the Inuit eat the fat and give the meat to their dogs. See where I'm going here? Would this not mean humans eat more flesh/protein than wolves? Just wondering ;) I personally had no idea what a coprolite is and am not ashamed to admit it! "I don't eat anything that's not in coprolites" doesn't sound like a good dietary strategy or T-shirt slogan.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on February 29, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Okay, I see. But what do you REALLY think?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:12 PM

I don't really think she understands the ice age or the multiregional hypothesis either. It's sad because most people don't, and they'll listen to her. Ice age is relative and there were plenty of temperate areas of the world back then, which happens to be where most hominids clustered at the time.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:07 PM

Now she is butchering staple isotope data. Nope, that's not how it works, you can't use it that way and any anthropologist will tell you that. Foxes don't cook, you can't extrapolate from them. And your citation is Dr. Eades? I officially dislike her now.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:56 PM

Ketone uptake in infants is 4-5 times faster than in adults and the ability declines with age, though I'd be curious to see any difference if the studies were done in a low-carbing population.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:54 PM

"The healthy adult human brain consumes ∼ 3.5 g glucose/100 g/min, while the infant brain consumes ∼ 5.3 g glucose/100 g/min." From Cunnane's book on human evolution, which has a good chapter on how important ketosis is for babies, because their brain caloric needs are so absurd and the ketogenic state is vital for building brain lipids. I think the infant metabolism is quite irrelevant to adults,except that homo sapien's ability to utilize ketones so well in adulthood is a relic of it.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:44 PM

and so what if rice cross-reacts in those "sensitivity tests"? those aren't even very accurate or scientifically accepted anyway and people frequently cross-react with all kinds of ridiculous things like beef.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:43 PM

And can sometime find any paper whatsoever that shows that coprolites from the paleolithic are devoid of evidence of eating plants, because that is quite groundbreaking. I've seen some coprolites with little evidence of plant consumption from neanderthals, but most paleolithic coprolites have extensive evidence of high-fiber consumption (not coprolite analysis is even very accurate).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:30 PM

OK this is NOT snark for once, but "Low stomach acid affects 90% of the population"??? I've been looking for any study about that for years and have never found one.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Amen. I started eating starches because I was POOR. The idea that I would enjoy something so plain and peasant-like is insulting to my sensibilities. Starches are only good if you drown them in fat IMHO.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:28 PM

Plus one for bringing up the fact that not all carb consumption is "carb addiction" just as eating fat does not make you a "fat addict", eating protein does not make you a "meat head", etc. As in politics, extreme perspectives drown out the moderate voices.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:26 PM

plus one for bringing up the fact that not all carb consumption is "carb addiction" just. Eating fat does not make you a "fat addict". Eating protein does not make you a "meat head". Just as in politics extreme perspectives tend to drown out the moderate voices.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:25 PM

k...I'll oblige to kick it off :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:24 PM

I am totally a boiled potato addict then :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 07:07 PM

You assume we like starches. I honestly don't.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on February 29, 2012
at 06:29 PM

"Cravings may be signs of addiction not a need" was indeed a good point. She really explains it well.

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12 Answers

29
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:29 PM

OK I wasn't going to do this hackathon because I have ADD and can't listen through any of them, but I managed Nora's because it's so wrong that my brain was able to somehow focus. That's why wrongess is so fun. IMHO she is probably more insidious than Kruse because she is a good communicator and cites things, but luckily for me I have access to all those things so I can look at them and see she is basically lying or doesn't know any better.

Of course there are things that just don't have any citations at all "Low stomach acid affects 90% of the population"??? I've been looking for any study about that for years and have never found one. Note I am looking for a study, not a book. {It appears that in her book she cites another book by Jonathan Wright on why stomach acid is good for you, so it's an anecdote from his clinical practice)

I think her grasp (and Paul's grasp) of the significance of infant metabolism is not that great. "The healthy adult human brain consumes ??? 3.5 g glucose/100 g/min, while the infant brain consumes ??? 5.3 g glucose/100 g/min." From Cunnane's book on human evolution, which has a good chapter on how important ketosis is for babies, because their brain caloric needs are so absurd and the ketogenic state is vital for building brain lipids. I think the infant metabolism is quite irrelevant to adults,except that homo sapien's ability to utilize ketones so well in adulthood is a relic of it. Ketone uptake in infants is 4-5 times faster than in adults and the ability declines with age, though I'd be curious to see any difference if the studies were done in a low-carbing population.

Then she starts butchering staple isotope data, which pisses me off. Nope, that's not how it works, you can't use it that way and any anthropologist will tell you that. Foxes don't cook, you can't extrapolate from them. And your citation is Dr. Eades? I officially dislike her now.

I don't really think she understands the ice age or the multiregional hypothesis either (she would have to be a multiregionalist if she is going to argue for humans being a cold-weather species). Ice age is relative and there were plenty of temperate areas of the world back then, which happens to be where most hominids clustered at the time. Also as I've said many times, human metabolic adaptations to arctic temperatures are relatively recent and poorly distributed, indicating they do not define homo sapiens and in fact may even represent relics of hybridization with other hominids who might have actually evolved in the cold, though that is just speculation.

Now here is a fun HW assignment. Here is the "paper" on Coprolites she cites (it is not a paper, it is an article in a magazine actually, though it's a good magazine) http://www.scribd.com/doc/83243120/Coprolites-of-Man Can anyone find where it says that there is evidence that paleolithic humans didn't eat plants? I can't. And either way, it is from 1975, which makes it pretty outdated, esp since then many of the methods of analyzing coprolites have been revised (and hilariously some of the specimens they thought were from humans were actually from hyenas). In fact, the hilarious thing is that that paper mentions pollen from plants that refutes Nora's assertion that humans lived in an environment similar to the modern high-arctic. And there are few plant foods there? O rly?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Oh Melissa, too much knowledge sometimes just leads to increased irritation at the world :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:19 PM

We (meaning Melissa, in this case) shouldn't have to act as fact-checkers. There's barely enough time in the day for doing work, cooking, keeping one's hair perfectly coiffed, etc. Be precise, you presenters!!!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:11 PM

I also happened to read that 1974 article on coprolites recently as Dr. Kruse quoted Nora as a source saying that ancient man ate no plants :) I agree it says nothing of the sort.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:38 PM

Melissa - you seem like a very bitter and angry person (and maybe a little hypoglycemic). You might consider that saying that Nora is "lying" is a libelous statement. You also may want to rethink your choice of words. Respectful disagreement is one thing, but hate mongering is something else altogether. It doesn't help the paleo community and it really makes you look bad. And by the way, the stomach acid thing comes from the clinical work and research of Dr. Jonathan Wright. Check out his book, "Stomach Acid is Good For You".

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on February 29, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Just as a logic lark, let's presume Eades interpretation of isotope data is correct. That humans consume more animal food than wolves. But we all know that the Inuit eat the fat and give the meat to their dogs. See where I'm going here? Would this not mean humans eat more flesh/protein than wolves? Just wondering ;) I personally had no idea what a coprolite is and am not ashamed to admit it! "I don't eat anything that's not in coprolites" doesn't sound like a good dietary strategy or T-shirt slogan.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:57 PM

Kamal, you really want to know? (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:36 AM

I liked her, but the whole thing just seemed to much. We are ultimate Ice Age being! Just because we can survive with minimal glucose doesn't mean we should.

627cf3f5d1ddfb4c2f4c96169420f55f

(1621)

on March 01, 2012
at 05:11 PM

Thank you for posting this Melissa! Low carb may work for a lot of people but definitely not for most for an entire lifespan.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on February 29, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Okay, I see. But what do you REALLY think?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 11:26 PM

I did read quite a lot of Nora's book some time ago but the amount of inaccuracies in it were to annoying to finish it. It just seems that most people don't really care about it even if you tell them...

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Well, isotope data can not tell us how much protein was eaten at all anyway. It can only tell us roughly where in the trophic level the protein that was eaten came from, if that makes sense. http://johnhawks.net/weblog/mailbag/isotopes-diet-2011.html has some useful info (incidentally that email is from Chris and based on an argument we had).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 11:34 PM

It's sad because she seems like an OK person. She's not rude at all IRL. When I read her book I felt bad that I didn't like it because of the bad sci.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:40 AM

I liked her, she made a few good points, but the whole thing just seemed a bit too much. We are ultimate Ice Age being! Just because we can survive with minimal glucose doesn't mean we should. Also I feel like her approach is every is sick, sensitive, intolerant to everything. Not everyone, I know there is still a lot, is sick or metabolically broken.

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 06, 2012
at 06:51 PM

I don't understand why you think breast milk is not relevant to assessing human nutrient needs because infants utilize ketones. Breast milk doesn't have ketones, the infant manufactures them. Weaning is often not until age 2, so breast milk is evolutionarily selected as a food for toddlers as well as neonates. If neonates use ketones as a substrate for lipid synthesis, ie as a substrate for growth rather than metabolism, then the ketones aren't relevant to adult needs but the sugar content of milk is.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 06, 2012
at 07:12 PM

I just think that infant metabolism has a specific purpose to build a brain.

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 11, 2012
at 11:46 PM

But the issue is: What is infant food for? More things than just building a brain. Brains aren't made of glucose or galactose, so why is breast milk 40% carbs? If infants need some carbs and not for growth, doesn't that suggest that adults should get some carbs?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 12, 2012
at 01:10 AM

Maybe you should do a whole FAQ blog post about it. My assumption is we need carbs because of the other reasons laid out in the PHD and we need them more than babies because our brains are less efficient at using ketones as we age.

26
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on February 29, 2012
at 07:16 PM

I'm getting more than a little offended by the new meme in low carb circles that humans who consume carbs are just addicts who can't he'p themselves. I tend to think these folks would be offended if anyone questioned their consumption of large quantities of butter, cream, etc.

The heroine thing ... complete with chuckling ... took her argument over the edge to hyperbole.

I didn't expect much more from someone who believes all body fat comes from glucose, though.

For anyone interested, my review. I recognize Nora is popular in paleo circles so let the downvotes commence.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:26 PM

plus one for bringing up the fact that not all carb consumption is "carb addiction" just. Eating fat does not make you a "fat addict". Eating protein does not make you a "meat head". Just as in politics extreme perspectives tend to drown out the moderate voices.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:28 PM

Plus one for bringing up the fact that not all carb consumption is "carb addiction" just as eating fat does not make you a "fat addict", eating protein does not make you a "meat head", etc. As in politics, extreme perspectives drown out the moderate voices.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:22 PM

@Melissa, yep I like a little sweet potato with my butter.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Amen. I started eating starches because I was POOR. The idea that I would enjoy something so plain and peasant-like is insulting to my sensibilities. Starches are only good if you drown them in fat IMHO.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:24 PM

I am totally a boiled potato addict then :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:32 PM

Poverty drives me into the austere embrace of the humble potato.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on February 29, 2012
at 07:25 PM

k...I'll oblige to kick it off :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:31 PM

Poverty drives me into the loving arms of potatoes.

15
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on February 29, 2012
at 04:32 PM

Fantastic! I missed her at AHS and hadn't paid much attention to her before now I feel great shame, lol. She's great! I worship the ground Paul Jaminet walks on but I thought Nora made some nice arguments to counter his ideas. I've spent the last year struggling to incorporate safe starch into my life and it's been a bit of a disaster for me. Hearing her speak I felt taken back to my low carb roots which I really needed right now. Even if you are anti-LC if you can keep an open mind I think this one is a good listen.

She actually reminds me of Paul quite a bit in that she seems to be a genuinely nice person who is clearly passionate about her message which she delivers very well. No doubt she is intelligent and seems to know her stuff. Time well spent.

11
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 06, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Nora has an addendum now: http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=2296

She says that young people like me are basically too young to know better. Last time I checked, Staffan Lindeberg wasn't exactly young. But I didn't know this was an anecdote battle, though it essentially becomes one when you are having to lean back on "clinical experience" (note that people in Jimmy's latest starch fiasco post attack Chris Kresser for mentioning his clinical experience with low-carb causing thyroid issues, but it's OK when LC zealots like Nora do it).

The reality is that yes, the Kitavans might be "tail enders," outliers, but the genetic and evolutionary evidence also shows LC-adapted arctic peoples are tail enders too, the exact people she wants everyone to model their diet around.

Zero citations of anything to look up this time around though. Maybe an admission of sorts that she has nothing to cite.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 06, 2012
at 07:32 PM

Scots wha hae, adapted to a diet of crappy fish and sheep stomachs

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:23 PM

We're not Inuit either.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 11:09 PM

Scots are currently trying to adapt to a diet of Irn Bru and chips :) Its not working out so well so far though...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:54 PM

and now eating a diet of Irn Bru and Chips.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:27 PM

I am not Inuit or Kitavan.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 06, 2012
at 07:52 PM

age set against displayed knowledge, and I know some oldsters are going to disagree, is a good measure of either how much or how little confirmation bias said aged one clings to in the face of data. Everyone holds onto a bit and only a few can identify the exact biases which they consider sacred. That's why you see otherwise intelligent folks get one thing right and another thing horribly wrong.

7
1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 01, 2012
at 09:08 AM

In her book, she recommends calorie restriction, protein restriction, VLC as well as a boatload of supplements. Seems like a very enjoyable life!

I'd rather enjoy my life and have enough energy to move a lot than put myself in an imaginary cage and live a couple of months longer...

Honestly, she scares me a bit and I can't believe I liked her book when I read it the first time.

Also, having lived and travelled throughout Asia, her explanation why Asians don't get as fat is quite stupid.

Finally, listening to her she doesn't sound very excited or enthusiastic about anything, maybe she really needs more carbs/food in gerneral ;)

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 01, 2012
at 12:46 PM

I've read two things about CRON that suggest to me that it's not for me. First, the extension in life span in humans is definitely a question, but it is unlikely that we're talking a lot of years. Second, in order to benefit, you need to have practiced CRON from birth. Certainly leaves me out of that equation!

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 01, 2012
at 04:46 PM

What exactly is her explanation of the Asian Paradox?

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 01:30 PM

Agree, worst explanation of the "Asian Paradox" ever :)

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 06, 2012
at 06:31 PM

If I remember correctly, she says they are lean because they eat small portions. So does that mean safe starches are okay, as long as we don't overeat? Thats the conclusion I would come to, but regardless thinks starches are not safe starch, hence why I feel like her explanation is absurd.

7
725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on February 29, 2012
at 06:32 PM

Enjoy the respectful way she disagrees and the way she laid out her case for why she disagrees. Lot of good food for thought.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on February 29, 2012
at 10:14 PM

I loved that too. Even though she disagrees with Paul she did so in a very respectful manner and I really appreciated that.

6
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on February 29, 2012
at 04:50 PM

Nora is making me think, which is always painful. :-))

I can't forget the statement by the Hadza gentleman in the Hidden Planet segment--"When the hunt fails we collect fruit and dig roots." Nora's dislike of combining protein and starch in the same meal rings true in that context.

But, so does Dr Kurt Harris's position that healthy people can enjoy starch without gaining weight. Richard Nikoley of Free the Animal is currently experimenting with that.

I accept my individual responsibility for testing my reaction to various starches and avoiding those that cause problems. Other than that, I think I have a more relaxed view of starches than Nora.

078b14042d995aa2ad3cf31a4dcde988

(613)

on March 01, 2012
at 04:08 PM

"I accept my individual responsibility for testing my reaction..." AY-MEN. I am very prone to obsess over parsing out every iota of paleo info I come across, and worrying over whether or not I'm doing it right. How do I feel? How do I function? How are my health markers? I try to remind myself these things will tell me more than any number of hours spent researching to the point of confusion & insanity.

5
71af94295988d55cd3b8340e619729d0

(255)

on February 29, 2012
at 04:33 PM

Caught some of it this morning; will have to catch the rest later tonight. I think...some pro-higher-starch feathers may definitely be ruffled in the paleo community by her podcast.

She raises some valid points, though - how do starch proponents know for certain that yeast/parasites aren't fueling desires for starches /the decision that they personally 'need' starch?

For those who don't reject the possibility of influence from internal flora out of hand...we really don't know. Yet.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on February 29, 2012
at 06:29 PM

"Cravings may be signs of addiction not a need" was indeed a good point. She really explains it well.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 29, 2012
at 07:07 PM

You assume we like starches. I honestly don't.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 01, 2012
at 12:48 PM

This is an interesting thought Melissa. I think lots of us who think we even like starches, don't like them, per se, we like some foods with them. For me, white rice or potatoes plain are bleh. Mix them with butter or sour cream or whatever fatty stuff and voila! For me not to gain weight and eat starches, I have to eat them "low fat". Thankfully I find that a pat of butter on a sweet potato goes a long way, but eating starches requires more restraint than not eating them does at times. Never thought about it that way.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 06, 2012
at 07:55 PM

how do you know toxoplasma gondii isn't changing the way you behave? I don't discount the broad theory that horrible little beasties change our behavior in subtle and perhaps consequential ways (in the aggregate) but taking a hammer to the problem makes about as much sense as exterminating cats and eating only well-done meat.

4
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on February 29, 2012
at 06:58 PM

Brilliant!

I would have loved a bit more to-and-fro between her and Sean, but I though she laid out her arguments clearly.

She's definitely got me considering going vlc again. Given my age/activity level, I think this makes more sense for me.

Now that I have been replenishing nutrient stores for over a year, I suspect I will have an easier time than I did when I first went Primal. I did 6 weeks of vlc, but it felt too restrictive (probably because I was still not over my sugar cravings.)

Not sure that I agree with her about it being generally OK to have more carbs in Pregnancy. My pregnant clients feel much better when they stay LC (if they've been fat-adapted for awhile.)

I am also inspired to read her book, finally.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:12 AM

Dragonfly you have clients and dish out advice so need to read what Melissa and Evelyn wrote about Nora.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 01, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Thanks, Sue. I did.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on March 04, 2012
at 12:10 AM

Looking at Shari's answer, (as well as Evelyn's & Melissa's) I notice that I was also focused on feeling "permission" to enjoy lc/vlc, in the midst of all the higher carb proponents I've been reading lately. This is not my area, so I can't vet her science, but intuitively, it felt right for ME when I was listening. As far as my clients, I always recommend they try different things and see what works for *them*. Funnily enough, yesterday I ate a steak & mashed potatoes & felt fantastic, haha! I think that the type of carbs makes all the difference for me.

725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on March 06, 2012
at 07:58 PM

I think Sean was trying to run it like a conference where speakers make presentations rather than a debate or exchange.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 06, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Dragonfly, Nora explains here http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=2296 that Sean just sat there and didn't chime in. He just let her talk and she didn't want "dead air" so she did.

2
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on February 29, 2012
at 06:31 PM

She has some good points. In particular safe starches are not for everyone. I still fall in the safe starch category however.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on March 01, 2012
at 01:29 PM

As do I. I agree safe starches are not for everyone but Nora assumes they are not safe for everyone, which is just not the case. Kinda absurd really.

0
25c4304319b5c8ca2e5c5de1fd7302ba

(3)

on March 10, 2012
at 01:19 AM

Quoted from above: "It's sad because she seems like an OK person. She's not rude at all IRL. When I read her book I felt bad that I didn't like it because of the bad sci."

I read her book a while back and didn't pick up on that - but I'm no scientist. What should I have been looking for if that is indeed the case?

Is it a matter of spotting factual errors where you know the material well, or do you have to look up the studies an author cites and confirm everything?


Edit: Melissa - What the heck? Why did you delete my post? I have a serious question for anyone who cares to contribute, about how to judge the quality of nutrition books. If you prefer not to be quoted, let me know and I'll remove it --- I'll go ahead anyway and try to adjust the font size and remove your name if that's what's bothering you --- but please don't delete a question I'm trying to find answers for.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 06, 2012
at 05:50 PM

Nora has recently created a followup blog post to her Paleo Summit presentation. It's pretty interesting and really shows that she is an intelligent, critical thinker as well as being a compassionate human being. I don't agree with everything she says but I also appreciate that she is one of the sane voices in the Paleo/Primal forest. She's a clinician and sees dis-regulated clients every day. (and really helps them according to many testimonials from all over the World) Anyway, here is her "addendum" to her Paleo Summit presentation. (ps. she got a personal email from Paul Jaminet complimenting her on her presentation)

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=2296

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