3

votes

Cross Country Running and Paleo

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 15, 2011 at 8:01 PM

So, I'm in high school and I want to sign up for Junior Varsity XC in the fall, but I want to know if the like 5-6 mile distance is considered unhealthy by the general paleo crowd. I know people like John Durant and the rest at NYC Barefoot disagree, but I'm not entirely sure.

I want to ask this now since I'm just in early training, while I work on my aerobic and anaerobic efficiency (for many things, not just XC). Thanks for any responses, but even if it's conclusively decided to be bad for me, I will most likely do it anyways; I'm stubborn that way.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 19, 2011
at 11:47 AM

that is her.....

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 19, 2011
at 04:24 AM

Professor Elizebeth Blackburn, UCSF is the Nobel winner. http://biochemistry.ucsf.edu/labs/blackburn/ The research program of the Blackburn laboratory focuses on telomeres, the structures stabilizing the ends of the eukaryotic chromosomes, and the enzyme telomerase. The mechanisms of telomere and telomerase functions, and how perturbations in these functions signal to cells. We investigate these in organisms from yeasts to humans, and in cancers.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:28 AM

do you realize you are talking about high school after school activity? not life-long dedication?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:55 PM

adaptability does not equal optimization.....we maybe discussing the semantics but I am clear.....no long distance running for longevity or health. 400 yards is it for right now based upon her findings. I am always ready to change my recs when science dictates it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:53 PM

the book has references in it you clearly need to read. Since your capable I suggest you do so. I wont force feed you a bit. You like to run.....do so. but know what it does to our DNA before you speak. what you thought you knew and what we are finding out about aerobic and endurance sports is rather shocking. So I report on 2011 data. I suggest you go to UCSF and talk to our Nobel Prize winning scientist. I will be speaking to her in ten days again.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:29 PM

Umm, Dr. K I posted recent ACTUAL paper re:teleomere length. You give me a book for lay people. Bring the real science, thanks. To say we're not "designed" (you mean adapted, I hope, unless you're an IDer) for running distances is absurd to the nth degree. There are humans that make a living running down prey over distances (which they'd certainly have to do if they didn't have horses). Sorry doc, we're adapted for running distances. And for sprinting. And for doing a lot of different things--we're a successful species due to our adaptability.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 05:27 PM

The Immortality Edge targets health at its innermost level by laying out a realistic, lifelong plan using easy steps that can fit into any busy schedule-steps that can improve the length and quality of your life

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 05:26 PM

your cells through relatively simple alterations in nutrition habits and other lifestyle changes.Offers a simple action plan you can start using immediately.Includes a revolutionary new eating plan. Recommends individualized supplement programs. Shares a diet and exercise approach grounded in solid scientific research The exciting recent discoveries about telomeres promise to revolutionize our approach to anti-aging much as antioxidants did ten years ago.Unlike trendy diet and fitness books with no basis in science

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:30 PM

The Immortality Edge targets health at its innermost level by laying out a realistic, lifelong plan using easy steps that can fit into any busy schedule-steps that can improve the length and quality of your life. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=fossel&sts=t&tn=immortality+edge&x=66&y=18

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:28 PM

youe cells through relatively simple alterations in nutrition habits and other lifestyle changes.Offers a simple action plan you can start using immediately.Includes a revolutionary new eating plan. Recommends individualized supplement programs. Shares a diet and exercise approach grounded in solid scientific research The exciting recent discoveries about telomeres promise to revolutionize our approach to anti-aging much as antioxidants did ten years ago.Unlike trendy diet and fitness books with no basis in science.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:24 PM

The Immortality Edge A simple plan to keep your telomeres healthy for better health and longevity Telomeres play an important role in protecting our chromosomes from critical damage. The shortening of the telomere disrupts vital cellular function and promotes the previously seemingly inevitable onset of aging and various diseases, including cancer and Alzheimer's. Drawing from the groundbreaking discoveries about telomeres that won the 2009 Nobel Prize in Medicine, this book includes a highly prescriptive program that shows you how to live longer by slowing telomere shortening and rejuvenating

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:32 PM

Go read mike fossel book the immortality edge. Some of the people on this thread have not stayed up with recent papers in telomere biology.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 11:33 AM

WR and TE and running backs are the sprinters. No one else there is. As I said anything over 400 yards is not good for your telomere length.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on April 17, 2011
at 11:57 PM

@Dr K - wouldn't NFL players be considered sprinters? granted i'm utterly uninformed/uninterested re american football, but from what i can see (what with all the adverts etc.), it's hardly sustained cardio. [and aren't they pretty fat?] Additionally, equating marathoners to high-school cross-country teams doesn't seem that useful for anyone here, nor does comparing marathoners to sprinters. I may be wrong, but most of us that run might fall nearer to 5k 3x wk? is your take on this the same?? = DEATH AWAITS AROUND THE BEND!??

7807ddb36f3fa43477d7d3cf7a561980

on April 17, 2011
at 01:12 AM

I can't honestly upvote the original answer, though, due to the vagueness and in itself not being very understandable. Thanks for the great detail in the comments here, though!

7807ddb36f3fa43477d7d3cf7a561980

on April 17, 2011
at 01:11 AM

I'm fine with this, since it's not going to make any large impact on my life. At most, I'm gonna be doing this for like 1/4 of the year for 4 years, nothing as close to as major as those NFL players you mentioned.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:49 AM

@Dr. K: We're designed for sprinting? Really? Then why do we blow at it? We're super good at running long distance. Apparently better than any other animal on earth. But we're built for sprinting and not distance? LOL?

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:48 AM

@Dr. K: No, it's actually not what I like to do. I rarely run farther than 1 mile at a time. And I downvoted it because it goes against what I believe? Well yeah. My beliefs tend to go against crazy shit. Guilty as charged.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:46 AM

@Dr. K: LOL why would I compare a marathoner to a sprinter? They're both highly specialized modern athletes. I don't want any of that shit. See where I'm going here? Let's start over: Is distance running bad if you do it AND all the other stuff?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 17, 2011
at 12:03 AM

Schwartz J, et al "Does longterm endurance running enhance or inhibit coronary artery plaque formation? A prospective multidetector CTA study of men completing marathons for least 25 consecutive years" ACC 2010; Abstract 1271-330. Written about by Dr Kurt Harris http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/21/still-not-born-to-run.html

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:50 PM

Acac and aca are studying early cardiac death in distance runners now.....what they are finding is shocking the dogma out there and will change what we recommend

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:49 PM

Should be 400 yards. Not 400 yes. Lol

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:48 PM

Running distances is over training. We are designed for sprinting. Anything over 400 yes increase cortisol and decrease telomere lengths measured in WBCs. We have been testing athletes now for seven years. The more violence, distance and endurance they require the shorter their telomeres are. It's quite established. We are studying NFL players now and retired players now and one thing is crystal clear......they die early because in mid life their telomeres are dramatically shortened. And yet at one time they were in unreal shape......cortisol and prolactin levels can and do kill you.....

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:09 PM

Werner et al. 2008, Werner et al. 2009, Puterman et al. 2010, LaRocca et al. 2010. I mean I could go on with this all day...I just find papers showing the opposite of what you're saying. Your maybe going off Collins et al. 2003, but they were looking specifically at overtrained athletes. Shin et al. didn't find the effect. Kadi et al. didn't find it. DeRae et al did, but that paper has all of 3 citations, so it hasn't been well regarded. So what are the papers I'm missing?

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Citation that running shortens telomeres please? Running is going to cause apoptosis? Seriously? That makes zero evolutionary sense. Mitochondria work against our telomeres? Separate genomes. What is the biological mechanism?

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:39 PM

I love sprinting. I don't mind biking distances. Or swimming distance. Or walking for distance. Cross country skiing. Rowing. Kayaking. Anything but running long distances. I'm with Mari...it just bores me to tears.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Anonymous coward, everyone is different. I hate running too, but not because it's painful or I'm doing it wrong. It's just boring and there are a million things I'd rather be doing. I'm good at it too, but it's just no fun.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:41 PM

The reason it's down voted is because it goes against what you believe and what you like to do. It's fine by me.....but my job is to educate you on what we know now.....not what we believed to be true yesterday.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:39 PM

The simple response is look at a marathoner vs a sprinter......who do you suppose is healthier? We already know the answer. It appears many on here don't. I say read more. Aerobics are not ideal for us. We can do it.....but it is not optimal

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:35 PM

These exercise actually shorten telomeres.......cardio exercise to an excess actually kill you. People can down vote it if they choose but telomere biology is clear.....you do cardio you eventually loose because of how our mitochondria work against our telomeres. If you follow a simplistic paleo logic that ancient man did it why should not we......you miss the point. Man today knows better......science shows that longevity is not tied to any cardio......it is tied to telomere biology.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on April 16, 2011
at 02:10 AM

*I should add that I am basing those heart rate numbers on metabolic efficiency testing I had done in a lab. Also, even though I enjoyed 'Paleo Diet for Athletes', I think Friel/Cordain overestimate the carb needs for people who are really dialed in with a paleo diet.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 16, 2011
at 02:08 AM

You absolutely hate running? We're built to love it! Are you sure you're doing it right? Barefoot? Correct technique? Nice grass? Cool, uneven terrain? Stuff to jump off of? Rocks to climb over? If you're running with correct technique and in a cool setting, it should be AWESOME! To fix this though, I need to know what EXACTLY it means for you to hate it. Are you getting a painful bouncing sensation in your head? Perhaps a stabbing sensation in your knees? Breathing problems? Ankle pain? What? There's a lot of things that could ruin it for you. Take that away, and you'll love it!

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 16, 2011
at 02:02 AM

What the hell is this answer? Either I'm totally misinformed, I'm totally misinterpreting you, or you're crazy! Maybe all three???

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:31 AM

did our ancestors not follow/chase animals? did they not travel distances on foot, carrying heavy things, perhaps even on an incline? was this not aerobic excercise? are we mal-adapted to these activities? i am not being glib.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:23 PM

Now I want to run down a kudu, so i can drink some blood, eat some brain and suck some marrow. Better yet, put it in a petting zoo, so I can leap on its back and bite thru its Jugular.

8c2ed9a35f6c4d35a3552a13ddabec8d

(525)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:05 PM

Also if cardio is less effective and takes longer why do it? Unless it has a purpose such as doing XC running or marathons.

8c2ed9a35f6c4d35a3552a13ddabec8d

(525)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:04 PM

I imagine our Paleolithic ancestors would have participated in long distance hunts. But they would have normally stalked their prey and wouldn't have wasted any unneccesary energy.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:40 PM

I would guess the Inuit also did a lot of endurance hunts, either by kayak, or long distance walking out on the ice looking for seal holes and what not (or going after caribou). Sled dogs certainly help, but I'm pretty sure those guys could do heavy endurance fueled entirely on whale blubber.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:29 PM

you know i can do endurance work and cardio fueled by fat just fine, in fact i don't get the brief (about 10 min) "sleepy" factor I would if were to top off with some carbs mid exercise. To my knowledge, the only downside of doing endurance fueled by fat is that sprinting is slightly dimished. You can run longer faster steadier but your peak short bursts of speed may not be as high. Thats fine with me.

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:26 PM

Excellent answer! :D

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Yeah, I've done a bunch of 1/2 marathons and a sprint triathlon or two, but a full marathon just doesn't appeal to me. (Congrats on yours though, awesome accomplishment.) For me that would be 6 hours of running. Yuck.

Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

(13635)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:14 PM

Imagine you wounded a deer-like animal, and then have to chase it so you won't have to go back the village empty-handed and get yelled at by the elders.

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11 Answers

best answer

4
8c2ed9a35f6c4d35a3552a13ddabec8d

on April 15, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Hi i'm in high school too. Its good to see other youngsters taking the initiative. I think that if XC running is something you want to do and something you will enjoy then go ahead. Remember its all about doing things you enjoy.

On the downside, I imagine most of your training sessions will be lots of running so there'll be a fair amount of cardio involved if you want to get serious. Also you'll need to consume more carbohydrates if you're doing a lot of cardio. Long distance running can be counter productive as it encourages sugar and carbohydrate cravings which will help you to gain weight if you're not careful. So its not optimal Paleo exercise - as that would be to stick to more fast and intense work.

I think you can be alright though. I would recommend reading "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" by Loren Cordain and Joe Friel because this will tell you the five stages and when and how much carbohydrates you will need.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html This article has a table near the bottom, which will theoretically tell you how many carbohydratess you will need based on your energy levels; however this will vary dependent on sex, body size etc.

Hope I've helped.

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:26 PM

Excellent answer! :D

8c2ed9a35f6c4d35a3552a13ddabec8d

(525)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:05 PM

Also if cardio is less effective and takes longer why do it? Unless it has a purpose such as doing XC running or marathons.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:40 PM

I would guess the Inuit also did a lot of endurance hunts, either by kayak, or long distance walking out on the ice looking for seal holes and what not (or going after caribou). Sled dogs certainly help, but I'm pretty sure those guys could do heavy endurance fueled entirely on whale blubber.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:29 PM

you know i can do endurance work and cardio fueled by fat just fine, in fact i don't get the brief (about 10 min) "sleepy" factor I would if were to top off with some carbs mid exercise. To my knowledge, the only downside of doing endurance fueled by fat is that sprinting is slightly dimished. You can run longer faster steadier but your peak short bursts of speed may not be as high. Thats fine with me.

8c2ed9a35f6c4d35a3552a13ddabec8d

(525)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:04 PM

I imagine our Paleolithic ancestors would have participated in long distance hunts. But they would have normally stalked their prey and wouldn't have wasted any unneccesary energy.

6
9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:35 PM

I don't know who considers 5 or 6 miles of running unhealthy. I reckon that if you couldn't run 5 or 6 miles at a time back in the day you'd be very hungry and/or very dead. Hunters in the Kalahari run down big game in the desert running up 20 miles in a day. Me, I absolutely hate running, I'd be an ambush hunter (I'm good on a sprint)...but the notion that we're ill adapted for running long distances seems odd to me.

As for the notion that you need a lot of carbs for running...why? The bushman in the Kalahari running in the desert sun for 8 hours is probably doing it while IFing. He's gonna run down that kudu and gorge on meat after the kill. You think he's going to sit down to a nice big bowl of carbs after a marathon hunt? No way. Dude is going to drink some blood, eat some brain and suck some marrow.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:23 PM

Now I want to run down a kudu, so i can drink some blood, eat some brain and suck some marrow. Better yet, put it in a petting zoo, so I can leap on its back and bite thru its Jugular.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 16, 2011
at 02:08 AM

You absolutely hate running? We're built to love it! Are you sure you're doing it right? Barefoot? Correct technique? Nice grass? Cool, uneven terrain? Stuff to jump off of? Rocks to climb over? If you're running with correct technique and in a cool setting, it should be AWESOME! To fix this though, I need to know what EXACTLY it means for you to hate it. Are you getting a painful bouncing sensation in your head? Perhaps a stabbing sensation in your knees? Breathing problems? Ankle pain? What? There's a lot of things that could ruin it for you. Take that away, and you'll love it!

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Anonymous coward, everyone is different. I hate running too, but not because it's painful or I'm doing it wrong. It's just boring and there are a million things I'd rather be doing. I'm good at it too, but it's just no fun.

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:39 PM

I love sprinting. I don't mind biking distances. Or swimming distance. Or walking for distance. Cross country skiing. Rowing. Kayaking. Anything but running long distances. I'm with Mari...it just bores me to tears.

4
A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Five or six miles? It's cake. You'll be fine.

I've done a half-marathon, a sprint triathlon, and a full marathon. I plan to stick with triathlons and half-marathons in the future. Okay, maybe one or two more marathons...

I think anyone can train and run for any distance up to a half-marathon without deleterious effects. Once a person goes past 13.1 miles, I think he or she will find their "point of diminishing returns" rather quickly.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Yeah, I've done a bunch of 1/2 marathons and a sprint triathlon or two, but a full marathon just doesn't appeal to me. (Congrats on yours though, awesome accomplishment.) For me that would be 6 hours of running. Yuck.

3
535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:36 PM

5-6 miles is not excessive at all. Our ancestors must have done a lot of running and walking in search of food.

1
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on April 19, 2011
at 02:31 AM

When I was in high school I was on sprint team, but we had regular long-distance (for a sprinter, about 3-6miles) runs incorporated. The good thing was, that it wasn't on a flat boring track, but through small forest, dirty paths and occasional mud and dirt. Now that was FUN! I still can't think of long running, so boring... but when I am on a hike, I often just want to run through the woods, with total euphoria and joy. For the sake of running.

Do what's fun, what makes you feel good and what you feel you are good at. The moment you feel it's painful, boring or too stressful on your body - try something different.

1
Aeecbe4ac022a864cb9993b596c8c617

(10)

on April 18, 2011
at 09:57 PM

Not elite or anything, but I completed the Shamrock Marathon recently after 60 days of straight Paleo. I 'carb-loaded' on sweet potatos and plantains 1-2 days before and kept almond butter squeeze gels on me for fuel during the race. It took 6 hours, not much different than when I ran a marathon on SAD a decade ago. I also ran the whole thing in Vibram Five Fingers. Felt primal, and felt good..

1
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 16, 2011
at 09:39 PM

As a follow up to Dr. K's telemere comments.

Take a look at these postings back a year ago when Paleohacks was in its infancy regarding CVD and running: http://paleohacks.com/questions/2469/long-distance-running-and-heart-disease#axzz1JisHsczX

http://paleohacks.com/questions/3429/long-distance-running-and-paleo#axzz1JisHsczX

And we have these records of history of death by running...maybe legend or some truth:

According to the legend, a Greek runner by the name of Pheidippides ran in excess of 145 miles from Athens to Sparta in roughly 24 hours, which was quite a display of ultraendurance athleticism. Pheidippides followed up on this feat by running an additional 26 miles from Marathon to Athens to announce a great Greek victory. When he reached Athens he proclaimed either "Nike" (Victory) or "Be Happy! We have won!" Pheidippides then fell to the ground---dead. Recall the fate of famed long distance runner, Jim Fixx, who died of a massive heart attack at age 52 after going for his routine morning run.

All his family had heart disease and all were carb loaders. Chronic long distance was the cure for heart diesease. Not when carb loading is involved....and probably never.

The scientific literature is filled with data that strongly make the case that long-distance runners are much more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, atrial fibrillation, cancer, liver and gallbladder disorders, muscle damage, kidney dysfunction, (renal abnormalities), acute microthrombosis in the vascular system, brain damage, spinal degeneration, and germ-cell cancers than are their less active counterparts.

Taken from Body by Science, Authors Doug McGuff, MD & John Little, Page 6

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:50 PM

Acac and aca are studying early cardiac death in distance runners now.....what they are finding is shocking the dogma out there and will change what we recommend

1
Eedf46c82d0356d1d46dda5f9782ef36

(4464)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:07 AM

I love a good run and have done up to 10 miles without needing to make any significant changes to my food intake before hand (no carbo-loading, or the like). Have a blast. I think all healthy humans should be able to handle a 5-6 mile spontaneous run.

1
6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 15, 2011
at 09:46 PM

Distance running is great. Watch this video. The ancients probably had to do a lot of running to get food. Not only chasing down animals (which we're great at apparently!), but also simply searching for sources of water, places where there's a lot of some kind of plant, etc.

If everything you needed was concentrated somewhere, of course you'd just move there. But what if most of what you need to concentrated somewhere, but there's 1-2 things that you need to go far for? Set up home base where everything else is, and run back and forth to get to the few things that aren't around!

Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about or anything. Perhaps they were already running or walking from one place to next, never setting up a home base. But then that would simply support long distance EVEN MORE. Either way, seems like we're good at running long distance... If you wanna be healthy, do what we're good at!

0
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on April 16, 2011
at 02:07 AM

I am an endurance athlete (cyclist) and I am able to ride at heart rates of 160s being fueled completely by fat and I even get about 80% of my fuel from fat in the 170s.

Do what you enjoy doing, and you'll see that a high fat/high protein diet will serve you well running long distances.

Also you should check out the crossfit endurance website. Im sure your workouts are already set for the team, but these guys are really onto something great. One of the founders (Brian) has run a couple of 100 mile runs and I asked him what the longest training run he did leading up to it and he said 15 miles.

Good luck and have fun!

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on April 16, 2011
at 02:10 AM

*I should add that I am basing those heart rate numbers on metabolic efficiency testing I had done in a lab. Also, even though I enjoyed 'Paleo Diet for Athletes', I think Friel/Cordain overestimate the carb needs for people who are really dialed in with a paleo diet.

-5
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 12:58 AM

Cross country running or skiing plus paleo is an oxymoron and might eventually kill you via apoptosis or senescence which ever your programmed for first".......I'll pass

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 16, 2011
at 02:02 AM

What the hell is this answer? Either I'm totally misinformed, I'm totally misinterpreting you, or you're crazy! Maybe all three???

7807ddb36f3fa43477d7d3cf7a561980

on April 17, 2011
at 01:11 AM

I'm fine with this, since it's not going to make any large impact on my life. At most, I'm gonna be doing this for like 1/4 of the year for 4 years, nothing as close to as major as those NFL players you mentioned.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:48 PM

Running distances is over training. We are designed for sprinting. Anything over 400 yes increase cortisol and decrease telomere lengths measured in WBCs. We have been testing athletes now for seven years. The more violence, distance and endurance they require the shorter their telomeres are. It's quite established. We are studying NFL players now and retired players now and one thing is crystal clear......they die early because in mid life their telomeres are dramatically shortened. And yet at one time they were in unreal shape......cortisol and prolactin levels can and do kill you.....

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:35 PM

These exercise actually shorten telomeres.......cardio exercise to an excess actually kill you. People can down vote it if they choose but telomere biology is clear.....you do cardio you eventually loose because of how our mitochondria work against our telomeres. If you follow a simplistic paleo logic that ancient man did it why should not we......you miss the point. Man today knows better......science shows that longevity is not tied to any cardio......it is tied to telomere biology.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:31 AM

did our ancestors not follow/chase animals? did they not travel distances on foot, carrying heavy things, perhaps even on an incline? was this not aerobic excercise? are we mal-adapted to these activities? i am not being glib.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:49 PM

Should be 400 yards. Not 400 yes. Lol

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:41 PM

The reason it's down voted is because it goes against what you believe and what you like to do. It's fine by me.....but my job is to educate you on what we know now.....not what we believed to be true yesterday.

7807ddb36f3fa43477d7d3cf7a561980

on April 17, 2011
at 01:12 AM

I can't honestly upvote the original answer, though, due to the vagueness and in itself not being very understandable. Thanks for the great detail in the comments here, though!

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 11:09 PM

Werner et al. 2008, Werner et al. 2009, Puterman et al. 2010, LaRocca et al. 2010. I mean I could go on with this all day...I just find papers showing the opposite of what you're saying. Your maybe going off Collins et al. 2003, but they were looking specifically at overtrained athletes. Shin et al. didn't find the effect. Kadi et al. didn't find it. DeRae et al did, but that paper has all of 3 citations, so it hasn't been well regarded. So what are the papers I'm missing?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 05:26 PM

your cells through relatively simple alterations in nutrition habits and other lifestyle changes.Offers a simple action plan you can start using immediately.Includes a revolutionary new eating plan. Recommends individualized supplement programs. Shares a diet and exercise approach grounded in solid scientific research The exciting recent discoveries about telomeres promise to revolutionize our approach to anti-aging much as antioxidants did ten years ago.Unlike trendy diet and fitness books with no basis in science

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 16, 2011
at 04:39 PM

The simple response is look at a marathoner vs a sprinter......who do you suppose is healthier? We already know the answer. It appears many on here don't. I say read more. Aerobics are not ideal for us. We can do it.....but it is not optimal

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:46 AM

@Dr. K: LOL why would I compare a marathoner to a sprinter? They're both highly specialized modern athletes. I don't want any of that shit. See where I'm going here? Let's start over: Is distance running bad if you do it AND all the other stuff?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 01:32 PM

Go read mike fossel book the immortality edge. Some of the people on this thread have not stayed up with recent papers in telomere biology.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on April 17, 2011
at 11:57 PM

@Dr K - wouldn't NFL players be considered sprinters? granted i'm utterly uninformed/uninterested re american football, but from what i can see (what with all the adverts etc.), it's hardly sustained cardio. [and aren't they pretty fat?] Additionally, equating marathoners to high-school cross-country teams doesn't seem that useful for anyone here, nor does comparing marathoners to sprinters. I may be wrong, but most of us that run might fall nearer to 5k 3x wk? is your take on this the same?? = DEATH AWAITS AROUND THE BEND!??

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 16, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Citation that running shortens telomeres please? Running is going to cause apoptosis? Seriously? That makes zero evolutionary sense. Mitochondria work against our telomeres? Separate genomes. What is the biological mechanism?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 17, 2011
at 12:03 AM

Schwartz J, et al "Does longterm endurance running enhance or inhibit coronary artery plaque formation? A prospective multidetector CTA study of men completing marathons for least 25 consecutive years" ACC 2010; Abstract 1271-330. Written about by Dr Kurt Harris http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/21/still-not-born-to-run.html

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:48 AM

@Dr. K: No, it's actually not what I like to do. I rarely run farther than 1 mile at a time. And I downvoted it because it goes against what I believe? Well yeah. My beliefs tend to go against crazy shit. Guilty as charged.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:55 PM

adaptability does not equal optimization.....we maybe discussing the semantics but I am clear.....no long distance running for longevity or health. 400 yards is it for right now based upon her findings. I am always ready to change my recs when science dictates it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 19, 2011
at 11:47 AM

that is her.....

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 05:27 PM

The Immortality Edge targets health at its innermost level by laying out a realistic, lifelong plan using easy steps that can fit into any busy schedule-steps that can improve the length and quality of your life

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 17, 2011
at 12:49 AM

@Dr. K: We're designed for sprinting? Really? Then why do we blow at it? We're super good at running long distance. Apparently better than any other animal on earth. But we're built for sprinting and not distance? LOL?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:28 PM

youe cells through relatively simple alterations in nutrition habits and other lifestyle changes.Offers a simple action plan you can start using immediately.Includes a revolutionary new eating plan. Recommends individualized supplement programs. Shares a diet and exercise approach grounded in solid scientific research The exciting recent discoveries about telomeres promise to revolutionize our approach to anti-aging much as antioxidants did ten years ago.Unlike trendy diet and fitness books with no basis in science.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 11:33 AM

WR and TE and running backs are the sprinters. No one else there is. As I said anything over 400 yards is not good for your telomere length.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:24 PM

The Immortality Edge A simple plan to keep your telomeres healthy for better health and longevity Telomeres play an important role in protecting our chromosomes from critical damage. The shortening of the telomere disrupts vital cellular function and promotes the previously seemingly inevitable onset of aging and various diseases, including cancer and Alzheimer's. Drawing from the groundbreaking discoveries about telomeres that won the 2009 Nobel Prize in Medicine, this book includes a highly prescriptive program that shows you how to live longer by slowing telomere shortening and rejuvenating

9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:29 PM

Umm, Dr. K I posted recent ACTUAL paper re:teleomere length. You give me a book for lay people. Bring the real science, thanks. To say we're not "designed" (you mean adapted, I hope, unless you're an IDer) for running distances is absurd to the nth degree. There are humans that make a living running down prey over distances (which they'd certainly have to do if they didn't have horses). Sorry doc, we're adapted for running distances. And for sprinting. And for doing a lot of different things--we're a successful species due to our adaptability.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:28 AM

do you realize you are talking about high school after school activity? not life-long dedication?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 18, 2011
at 04:30 PM

The Immortality Edge targets health at its innermost level by laying out a realistic, lifelong plan using easy steps that can fit into any busy schedule-steps that can improve the length and quality of your life. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=fossel&sts=t&tn=immortality+edge&x=66&y=18

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 19, 2011
at 04:24 AM

Professor Elizebeth Blackburn, UCSF is the Nobel winner. http://biochemistry.ucsf.edu/labs/blackburn/ The research program of the Blackburn laboratory focuses on telomeres, the structures stabilizing the ends of the eukaryotic chromosomes, and the enzyme telomerase. The mechanisms of telomere and telomerase functions, and how perturbations in these functions signal to cells. We investigate these in organisms from yeasts to humans, and in cancers.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:53 PM

the book has references in it you clearly need to read. Since your capable I suggest you do so. I wont force feed you a bit. You like to run.....do so. but know what it does to our DNA before you speak. what you thought you knew and what we are finding out about aerobic and endurance sports is rather shocking. So I report on 2011 data. I suggest you go to UCSF and talk to our Nobel Prize winning scientist. I will be speaking to her in ten days again.

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