14

votes

Where's the Proof that Glucose Metabolism Generates more ROS than that of Lipids?

Answered on February 21, 2015
Created November 02, 2011 at 10:42 PM

I see this claim in the (low carb) paleo community all the time but I've never seen any evidence of it. I've seen evidence that diabetes-induced hyperglycemia increases the generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS), but I've never seen anything that indicated that metabolizing lipids generates a different amount than metabolizing glucose. Since the actual mitochondrial oxidation of acetyl-CoA is the same for both, the difference must be during glycolysis that turns glucose into pyruvate or the step that turns pyruvate into acetyl-CoA.

So which is it? What part of the process generates more ROS? As far as I can tell, all the ROS that is generated during cellular respiration occurs during the electron transport chain, which would be the same for lipids or glucose. Is the claim actually that a fat-sourced acetyl-CoA molecule "burns cleaner" than a glucose-sourced one? If so, that's preposterous.

141171c0810650168d82601d85cfa5a3

(415)

on June 30, 2012
at 11:11 AM

I'd have to agree that running on fat seems best. Calorie restriction increases longevity. It also promotes fatty acid synthesis and oxidation. These CR mice are actually creating fat just to burn it instead of burning CHO directly. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19887594

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on December 29, 2011
at 02:51 PM

lol so much for VLC

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:31 PM

Whoa...the cellular microcosm just blew my mind. That explains so much about fuel selection issues.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Oh yeah, this is just what I was looking for; thanks.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 08, 2011
at 07:56 PM

Travis, if you have access to a academic database just do "peroxisomes and reactive oxygen species", you'll get a ton of results to quench your thirst. You have to watch because there are some differences between primate peroxisomes and other mammals especially in the handling of uric acid. So just keep your eyes peeled, usually the differences are mentioned in the papers. Down below I posted a paper that does a good job of describing them in general along with some pictures. Everything jibes with what I learned when I was a student at the AFIP.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 PM

If you can't access the paper e-mail me.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 PM

For a brief overview of Peroxisomes see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15241609

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 07, 2011
at 01:30 PM

I wonder, too, if ROS → dysfunction → metabolic mahem and accelerated aging, and carbs → more ROS than fats, then why does RQ decline with age, but is preserved in the longest living women in the study that was the subject of this blog post?: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/do-carb-burners-live-longer.html

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 07, 2011
at 01:26 PM

Thanks Edward :-) @Lucas: I've only recently been blogging on the mitos per se, but the FA "lipotoxicity" has been a topic I've blogged on quite a bit. Which reminds me that the following post is almost three months old, and I've got several half-baked posts sitting in the draft bin: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/intracellular-fatty-acid-metabolism.html This post/study was a turning point in this thought process: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/11/fat-futile-cycling-from-carb-excess.html There can be no doubt that fats burn dirty, I would say dirtier, than carbs.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:58 AM

I do know that peroxynitrite is a major player in SAH and CVA. And it appears this is one of the substances that cause BBB disruption and the problems associated with vasospasm. It also appears to play a major role in the breakdown of the gut lining in many neurosurgical diseases.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:55 AM

Uric acid is a natural antioxidant, accounting for up to 60% of the free radical scavenging activity in human blood (Ames et al., 1981). UA scavenges superoxide hydroxyl radical and single oxygen atoms (Ames et al., 1981; Davies et al., 1986). UA appears to help in the removal of superoxide by preventing against the degradation of SOD. SOD is the enzyme that is responsible for chemically cleansing superoxide from the cell (Pacher et al., 2007). Removal of superoxide helps to block its reaction with NO. In the brain this blocks the formation of peroxynitrite (mitochondrial toxin)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Anyone who does not think mitochondrial function needs to be optimized is lost in old science. Telomere biology is showing us all how vital it is. The ROS from the inner mitochondrial membrane determines the cellular fates and signal mito biogenesis and apoptosis. It is super critical.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:12 AM

@Kamal UA, is a natural brain antioxidant and free radical scavenger. It may (proposed by many) attenuate the dopaminergic neuronal degeneration resulted from oxidative stresses at the pars compacta of the substantia nigra. Lower serum UA in PD had been noted from various studies. Im not aware of UA levels in other ND diseases other than PD

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:01 AM

Nick Lane has several listed in his book if memory serves me correctly.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Actually it's incorrect to say FA metabolism (in the sense of metabolism meaning usefull energy is being produced) happens in Peroxisomes, it doesn't, the long chains just get broken down there.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 10:02 PM

btw... beta-oxidation doesn't only occur in cell mitochondria

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Yes. Rats with hypothalamic lesions become obese due to impairment of thermogenesis of BAT cells. They also become hyperphagic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1875778/pdf/canmedaj01393-0060.pdf

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:10 PM

Evelyn: You've written about incomplete FA oxidation before, right? Your blog is so jam-packed with info that I don't know where to start.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 05:05 PM

Lots of 'tards here. I'll up-vote you just for spite.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 06, 2011
at 05:01 PM

OK ... I'm just curious. Why would someone down-vote this reply?

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:54 PM

@maj could their insatiable appetites be caused by leaky mito?

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:53 PM

I'm Okinawan and have a couple centenarians in my family and few on the way; one just died in April at 106. My mothers side is not Okinawan but she has centenarians on her side as well. I'm aware of the mutation for the Okinawan's, but does this mutation exist outside of that population as well? @maj It's interesting you mention the IF, I have for as long as I remember been a natural IF'er. Essentially eating when I'm hungry and not eating when I'm not. Even during hard training, I have always ate comparatively little compared to some of the athletes I've trained with.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:47 PM

@The Quilt, I was being a smart ass.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:40 PM

Plus they practice IF basically AFAIK. If their longevity is due to mitochondria sparing, then this is yet another compelling reason that wee need to improve mito function.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:32 PM

Edward if you actually read my blog you would have seen i covered it long ago. The tanaka study shows okinawins longevity is not diet related at all but they have a novel mutation of cytochrome one that makes their mitochondria less leaky and this is there advantage. It has zero to do with their macronutrients as most believe.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 05, 2011
at 12:26 PM

if that's the case do we have studies demonstrating ROS production in mitchondria?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 04, 2011
at 03:15 PM

Thank you so much for asking this question, Travis. I might be the only one who repeatedly makes this preposterous claim on PH, and it's nice to get it addressed explicitly. :-)

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 04, 2011
at 02:07 PM

@maj, can you send me an e-mail? edward dot edmonds at gmail dot com. I want to discus some of this. I woke up again feeling lonely... LOL

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 03, 2011
at 11:13 PM

Lucas and Quilt- The following paper came out a couple months ago. I'm not at school so I can't access the full thing, but talks about the connection between low uric acid and neurological disease. I'd love to get one of your more knowledgeable viewpoints on this...http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/09/09/qjmed.hcr159.abstract

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 10:23 PM

Jack, see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2895915/. In short, it seems that acute rise = "good", chronic high levels = "bad"/"underlying metabolic dysfunction"

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 03, 2011
at 07:03 PM

An excess of any antioxidant causes reductive stress. In the case of uric acid, it interferes with endothelial NO concentrations. Because we lost ascorbate synthesis, uric acid is absolutely vital for us. I'm not sure about it's potency, as I would have guessed that glutathione was the most vital/potent, but who knows.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Yes, that sounds right. I can say from personal experience, it can definitely be symptom of toxicity.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:06 PM

uric acid is the most potent mammalian antioxidant?? Doesn't excess uric acid cause terrible gout and other health issues?

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:24 PM

I dont know why I couldnt keep writing the above comment...Anyways, as always, another key factor is reading the methods section. ROS analysis seem to vary because of the type of method used (chemiluminescence, etc.) and the cell types analyzed. Regarding orange juice and fructose vs. glucose, the differences might be due because fructose increases serum uric acid, the most potent mammalian antioxidant.

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:18 PM

Thank you guys. Cliff, you are comparing apples with oranges. ROS production in the mitochondria is normal and necessary (mitohormesis). The studies you have cited measured ROS production by PBMCs, which is different than the process by which the mitochondria generates ROS. For example, compromised ROS production in macrophages is deleterious for the host defense.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:08 PM

I especially enjoyed the phrase "Equicaloric amounts of orange juice or water...". WTF?

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:57 PM

Doubt is a healthy response. :) Keep in mind REM doesn't necessarily mean you are consciously dreaming. I don't have a problem with unconscious dreaming i.e. you are not aware what you are dreaming about nor that you are dreaming (I prefer to call this processing, it's not till we become aware of this processing that it becomes a dream), it's the processing that happens during REM which leaks into the consciousness that I postulate is a symptom of toxicity.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 03:38 PM

This forum sux. We can't even chit chat here like normal people.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 03:37 PM

@Edward: I doubt that... babies are known to be 70% in REM phase. That said, lucid dreaming might be toxic to the soul :P Sleeping shouldn't be lucid but relaxing and reseting experience.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:35 PM

@cliff I drink 1.5 L of rocket fuel as well :)

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:34 PM

@The Quilt, make sure you account for Okinawa in your theory as well.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:19 PM

@majkinetor Ha! I think dreaming might be a symptom of toxicity.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on November 03, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Nice answer Lucas. Good to see you here

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:59 PM

I personally think ron is going to go after these points to a big degree. I also think telomere biology completely does not support any of the safe starches assumption and guys like harris and paul need to read this work and think about implications. This science is brand spanking new and many paleo folks are in the dark about it. Its part of my quilt and i know ron and assume lucas is well aware of it because it ties directly to the mitochondrial theory of aging which is currently replacing the older theories of aging and neolithic disease generation.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 02:58 PM

@cliff These OJ papers demonstrate context, that's it. They show that a single molecule can have a certain effect in one context and a completely different effect in another context. Some of the other observations of the paper are interesting for mental masturbation but far from proving drinking 1.5 liters a day of OJ as a OPTIMAL energy source. That's why you perceive maj picking on you, he's not, you're trying to make a point that is not supported by this particular paper, you're picking on yourself because of your own doubts.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:54 PM

This is why so many of us have a problem with the safoe starch theories. The biochemistry does support it and the papers that the carb folks use are cherry picked to some degree. These organic chemistry issues are more cut to the point and why some of us believe mct and ketogenic diets can be very useful to get to optimal. When i read pauls response to ron i was perplexed that he made the distinction between perfect health and optimal longevity. He seems to think both can exist mutually and they can not. Its incongruent. Optimal longevity assume perfect health.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:48 PM

http://jackkruse.com/do-food-electrons-impart-a-quantum-effect/ Matt Lalonde also made a comment here about this. Plus one lucas.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:46 PM

Forget it travis. Lucas beat me to he punch. This is it and i wote about this several months ago in a quantum electron post.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:44 PM

Travis their is also a biochemical reason. When i get time between my cases i will post it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Not maybe :D ....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:37 PM

thats in vitro though so mabe the effect is different in vivo

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:36 PM

@Edward: Now we know what you were dreaming about... feel lonely? I can send you e-mail periodically if you want ... BTW, there is no bickering. I am a main cheerleader here.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:33 PM

This raised the question whether the presence of flavonoids and vitamin C exerted an ROS and NF-B binding suppressive effect or that fructose, the other major sugar in orange juice, may be suppressive of ROS generation and NF-B binding. Therefore, we tested these possibilities in a separate series of experiment conducted in vitro. We were able to demonstrate that fructose and ascorbic acid did not suppress ROS generation, whereas hesperetin and naringenin inhibited ROS generation by 52 and 77%, respectively, at micromolar concentrations

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:32 PM

*why are you so focused on attacking my dietary choices?* Because I like - you are turtle protector. I want to see you live very long. (j/k, i don't really care about ur dietary choices, I don't know how did you get that - I probably choose bad model for provocation)

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 02:31 PM

I step away for my mid-day nap and come back to you all bickering like a bunch of school girls :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:29 PM

*ascorbic acid had no significant effect over the control on ROS production* Thats BS. Vitamin C recycles vitamin E and Vitamin E controls it: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0891584999001215

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:27 PM

*we also both know you don't have a time machine* But I have brainz instead. Its enough to go to bazaar and stand near strawberriy stand - there will be bunch of people asking how sweet it is and passing if its not. Genetic manipulation solves that issue.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:27 PM

milk comes with plenty of b6 though and is low in methinione/trytophan and it doesn't need to be cooked.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:25 PM

why are you so focused on attacking my dietary choices?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:23 PM

no i'm quoting the info in the study, ascorbic acid had no significant effect over the control on ROS production.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:23 PM

@cliff: You don't read carefully. Ely said *"excesses of protein and fat with respect to intakes of pyridoxine (vitamin B6) and Mg"*. If you have those two right, no problem. *i eat very little pure glucose* how did you convince your tongue to produce less salivary amylase ?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:21 PM

thanks for clarifying that mathew. @maj- http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ we also both know you don't have a time machine so you have no idea what thy had....

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:20 PM

@Matthew: there is also a third issues here: ROS produced by immune system by dietary changes.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

i eat very little pure glucose. The milk issue is interesting but I need prot and milk is imo safer than meat for the reasons outlined in tely's paper. I'm also not claiming anything like rosendale and the quilt, my personal diet could potentially be harmful. Obviously I don't think that:)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

*you can see for yourself on the graph.* Are you seriously questioning vitamin C antioxidant capabilities? Seriously ? Get real dude.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

@cliff, I think there are two separate issues here: 1) The ROS produced as a byproduct of metabolizing macronutrients in your mitochondria. 2) The postprandial ROS producing effects of macronutrients while they are floating around in your blood after eating.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:14 PM

*ely clearly has some wrong conclusions, he says we aren't adapted to sugar but we evolved from fruit eating primates* Maybe, but understand that fruit **then** and fruit **now** are two distinct things.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:13 PM

you can see for yourself on the graph...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:11 PM

You seem to be in the worst group cliff: lots of milk (casein and cream) + glucose :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:08 PM

@cliff: vit c has no effect on ROS generation and it is antioxidant ? thats strange ... :) do better research...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:06 PM

*do you have literature on your endotoxin/fat theory* Its not mine theory. I posted vitamin C related data. There is a lot of references there. For other data see: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1765 http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/02/fats-absorbing-endotoxin.html

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:02 PM

according to the one study vit c had no effect on ROS generation. The antioxidants in oranges have a muhgreter effect on ros production. check out the last chart http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:02 PM

Probably because it improves fat genesis and reduces ATP synthesis: *Acute loading of the liver with fructose causes sequestration of inorganic phosphate in fructose-l-phosphate and diminished ATP synthesis* http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/5/754S.full.pdf

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:00 PM

do you have literature on your endotoxin/fat theory?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:59 PM

.. and vitamin C helps A LOT with that. Thats why I always say that C + HF paleo is win win combination.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:58 PM

regardless fructose and fruits cause the lowest ROS response, i don't get how the low carb gurus can explain that one away.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:57 PM

*how* More fat means more endotoxins as those are lipoplisacharide (LPS). Minute differences in LPS are very bad for organism and consequently immune system re-calibrates to new fat regieme as it keeps endotoxin level in check (by changing the way it kills/controls microbiota which release endotoxins after they burst). This may be reason for low carb high fat flue tbh.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:55 PM

ely clearly has some wrong conclusions, he says we aren't adapted to sugar but we evolved from fruit eating primates.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:55 PM

*cream is at 200 at 2h and glucose is at 175* - the problem: cream is not single substance such is glucose. Cream can be anything and I don't see what it is from the study - it can contain hormones and antibiotics for instance.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:51 PM

"Immune system will adapt to higher fat levels." how?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:51 PM

*whats so suspicious about it?* : I don't know yet, thats why I used that word instead "wrong" :) N is too small to be honest for his major study and there is no clear dietary breakdown for both ad-libitum and intervention diet HCHF.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:50 PM

*whats so suspicious about it?* : I don't know. Thats why I said suspicious :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:49 PM

BTW, cliff, Ely also talks about complex carbs: *"So, it was essentially known circa the early 1970's that CVD and diabetes were preventable by a diet low in fat, sugar, and animal protein but high in complex carbohydrate and vegetable protein"*

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:49 PM

whats so suspicious about it?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:48 PM

i'm referring to these 2 studies ajcn.org/content/75/4/767.full http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html cream is at 200 at 2h and glucose is at 175

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:47 PM

Rosedale sits on "hypoglycemia part". How you produce it, is another topic, but I almost sure its not by eating sugar.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:45 PM

@cliff: you are probably basing your conclusions on recent Jaminets article which is suspicious to say at least.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:45 PM

Immune system will adapt to higher fat levels. Vitamin C prevents that too. See Endotoxins and vit C http://www.vitaminc.co.nz/pdf/ENDOTOXIN-AND-VITAMIN-C.pdf. Carbs block C.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:44 PM

i don't get where rosendale sits on this issue, doesn't he know that very high carb diets produce the lowest bs values while very low carb diets generally produce the highest?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:44 PM

I believe that is not correct cliff. Fat induced ROS is due to endotoxemia: "Our data show clearly for the first time that the intake of either 33 g cream or 75 g glucose resulted in a significant increase in the expression o f SOC S3 mRNA in the circulating MNCs. With cream, this increase was observed at 1 h and continued until at least 5 h, at which time the experiment ended. Glucose caused an increase in SOCS3, which peaked at 1 h (83% over baseline) and was still elevated at 5h"... "the intake of cream resulted in an increase in both plasma LPS concentration and TLR-4 expression"

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:34 PM

the paper by tely is very interesting, especially the part about b6

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:31 PM

Oj causes similar blood gluoses concentrations as pure glucose but has little effect on ROS.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:29 PM

cream causes even more ROS than glucose

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:28 PM

Obviously .....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:26 PM

fructose causes less ROS than fat or prot

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:18 PM

And related to aging: *he causes of this increased oxidative damage are uncertain, but substantial data now indicate that the ability of skeletal muscle from aged organisms to respond to an increase in ROS generation by increased expression of cytoprotective proteins through activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors is severely attenuated* http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/jphysiol.2011.206623/full

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:17 PM

However: *"Reactive oxygen species, derived from the mitochondrial electron transport system, may be necessary triggering elements for a sequence of events that result in benefits ranging from the transiently cytoprotective to organismal-level longevity"* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16242247

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:17 PM

what do you think about these studies, http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html http://www.ajcn.org/content/75/4/767.full . Cream and casein generate a significant amount more ROS than orange juice or fructose.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:16 PM

Some more papers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2605959/ *Two modes of operation by isolated mitochondria result in significant O2•− production, predominantly from complex I: (i) when the mitochondria are not making ATP and consequently have a high Δp (protonmotive force) and a **reduced CoQ (coenzyme Q) pool**; and (ii) when there is a high NADH/NAD+ ratio in the mitochondrial matrix.*

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:10 PM

This is also what T.Elly claims, vitamin C researcher, independently from Rosedale.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:07 PM

Nice Lucas. This is in line with Rosedale: "Another implication of the hypothesis is that it may be possible to reverse age-related impairments by producing carefully controlled hypoglycemia at levels lower than can be produced by optimum dietary restriction. "

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:00 PM

they use land of lakes cream in that study maybe the carragean has something to do with its effect on endotoxins and inflammation?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:54 PM

as far as carbs go I consume about 6 cups oj, couple bananas, pineapple juice, couple potatoes and ~gallon of milk each day. I get around 800g of carbs from all that. Before this I was using mostly potatoes and milk for carbs but that made my metabolism drop and I lost weight.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:53 PM

as far as carbs go I consume about 6 cups oj, couple bananas, pineapple juice, couple potatoes and ~gallon of milk each day. Before this I was using mostly potatoes and milk for carbs but that made my metabolism drop and I lost weight.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 03, 2011
at 03:10 AM

We are so glad to have you here Lucas!

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Travis, is not glycolisis per se that produces ROS, is the proportion of NADH+ produced in this pathway. http://library.thinkquest.org/27819/media/glycolysis.gif, plus NADH+ generated by pyruvate dehydrogenase plus the NADH+ generated in the Krebs Cycle (3 NADH+ per cycle).

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 02:27 AM

@Matthew, yeah there were a couple other similar papers if you check out the cites from the abstract view. Good stuff. Good stuff.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:48 AM

@Edward: Another one by the same authors: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/5/991.full.pdf

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:30 AM

Excellent answer Lucas.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 12:28 AM

I think it would be interesting to see something like this done with potato and rice. Of course we'd have to keep in mind that there are quite a few populations that do well on potato and rice. Maybe there is a protective mechanism in the whole potato just like in oranges. And if not then maybe another portion of the diet is doing it for the potato.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 12:25 AM

I'm an OJ junkie (about 1 to 1.5 liters of fresh squeezed a day), but I think if anything what the paper shows at least to me is that context matters, that individually specific molecules can behave in one way but when part of a whole food can behave in another way.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:20 AM

Cliff, I know you're a fan of orange juice, but how much of that can you really be drinking? Your carb target was in the stratosphere if I recall correctly, so what do you use?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:08 AM

Safe starches aren't so safe....

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 02, 2011
at 11:58 PM

Hadn't seen that...wow.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 02, 2011
at 11:50 PM

This might be interesting to you if you haven't seen it already: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 02, 2011
at 11:38 PM

So just to clarify, it's glycolysis specifically that generates more ROS and thus anaerobic activity would generate more than aerobic activity that is fueled by lipids, right?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 02, 2011
at 11:32 PM

Oh man, now *that's* an answer. Thanks a lot.

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6 Answers

25
68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

on November 02, 2011
at 11:25 PM

You are correct, the generation of ROS is in the ETC. But it differs from electrons derived from glucose or fatty acids. Glucose generates more NADH+, which then transfer electrons to complex I (NADH dehydrogenase). Fatty acids produce almost an equal amount of NADH+ and FADH2, which utilizes preferentially complex II (succinate dehydrogenase).

1 molecule of glucose:

Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 5:1

1 molecule of palmitate:

Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 2:1

Complex I is the main producer of ROS in the ETC, along with complex III. See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19398655?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15254374

Another complex which is utilized by catabolism of fatty acids is the electron-transferring flavoprotein.

A good, comprehensive review can be found here

And, the basics here.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 02, 2011
at 11:38 PM

So just to clarify, it's glycolysis specifically that generates more ROS and thus anaerobic activity would generate more than aerobic activity that is fueled by lipids, right?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 02, 2011
at 11:32 PM

Oh man, now *that's* an answer. Thanks a lot.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 03, 2011
at 03:10 AM

We are so glad to have you here Lucas!

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:18 PM

Thank you guys. Cliff, you are comparing apples with oranges. ROS production in the mitochondria is normal and necessary (mitohormesis). The studies you have cited measured ROS production by PBMCs, which is different than the process by which the mitochondria generates ROS. For example, compromised ROS production in macrophages is deleterious for the host defense.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:48 PM

http://jackkruse.com/do-food-electrons-impart-a-quantum-effect/ Matt Lalonde also made a comment here about this. Plus one lucas.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:17 PM

However: *"Reactive oxygen species, derived from the mitochondrial electron transport system, may be necessary triggering elements for a sequence of events that result in benefits ranging from the transiently cytoprotective to organismal-level longevity"* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16242247

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 03, 2011
at 12:30 AM

Excellent answer Lucas.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:16 PM

Some more papers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2605959/ *Two modes of operation by isolated mitochondria result in significant O2•− production, predominantly from complex I: (i) when the mitochondria are not making ATP and consequently have a high Δp (protonmotive force) and a **reduced CoQ (coenzyme Q) pool**; and (ii) when there is a high NADH/NAD+ ratio in the mitochondrial matrix.*

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on November 03, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Nice answer Lucas. Good to see you here

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:18 PM

And related to aging: *he causes of this increased oxidative damage are uncertain, but substantial data now indicate that the ability of skeletal muscle from aged organisms to respond to an increase in ROS generation by increased expression of cytoprotective proteins through activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors is severely attenuated* http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/jphysiol.2011.206623/full

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:46 PM

Forget it travis. Lucas beat me to he punch. This is it and i wote about this several months ago in a quantum electron post.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:06 PM

uric acid is the most potent mammalian antioxidant?? Doesn't excess uric acid cause terrible gout and other health issues?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:17 PM

what do you think about these studies, http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html http://www.ajcn.org/content/75/4/767.full . Cream and casein generate a significant amount more ROS than orange juice or fructose.

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Travis, is not glycolisis per se that produces ROS, is the proportion of NADH+ produced in this pathway. http://library.thinkquest.org/27819/media/glycolysis.gif, plus NADH+ generated by pyruvate dehydrogenase plus the NADH+ generated in the Krebs Cycle (3 NADH+ per cycle).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:07 PM

Nice Lucas. This is in line with Rosedale: "Another implication of the hypothesis is that it may be possible to reverse age-related impairments by producing carefully controlled hypoglycemia at levels lower than can be produced by optimum dietary restriction. "

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 10:23 PM

Jack, see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2895915/. In short, it seems that acute rise = "good", chronic high levels = "bad"/"underlying metabolic dysfunction"

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:10 PM

This is also what T.Elly claims, vitamin C researcher, independently from Rosedale.

68f2734a5078a7106f560a7079df45fd

(1550)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:24 PM

I dont know why I couldnt keep writing the above comment...Anyways, as always, another key factor is reading the methods section. ROS analysis seem to vary because of the type of method used (chemiluminescence, etc.) and the cell types analyzed. Regarding orange juice and fructose vs. glucose, the differences might be due because fructose increases serum uric acid, the most potent mammalian antioxidant.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 03, 2011
at 11:13 PM

Lucas and Quilt- The following paper came out a couple months ago. I'm not at school so I can't access the full thing, but talks about the connection between low uric acid and neurological disease. I'd love to get one of your more knowledgeable viewpoints on this...http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/09/09/qjmed.hcr159.abstract

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 03, 2011
at 07:03 PM

An excess of any antioxidant causes reductive stress. In the case of uric acid, it interferes with endothelial NO concentrations. Because we lost ascorbate synthesis, uric acid is absolutely vital for us. I'm not sure about it's potency, as I would have guessed that glutathione was the most vital/potent, but who knows.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 05, 2011
at 12:26 PM

if that's the case do we have studies demonstrating ROS production in mitchondria?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:12 AM

@Kamal UA, is a natural brain antioxidant and free radical scavenger. It may (proposed by many) attenuate the dopaminergic neuronal degeneration resulted from oxidative stresses at the pars compacta of the substantia nigra. Lower serum UA in PD had been noted from various studies. Im not aware of UA levels in other ND diseases other than PD

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:01 AM

Nick Lane has several listed in his book if memory serves me correctly.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:55 AM

Uric acid is a natural antioxidant, accounting for up to 60% of the free radical scavenging activity in human blood (Ames et al., 1981). UA scavenges superoxide hydroxyl radical and single oxygen atoms (Ames et al., 1981; Davies et al., 1986). UA appears to help in the removal of superoxide by preventing against the degradation of SOD. SOD is the enzyme that is responsible for chemically cleansing superoxide from the cell (Pacher et al., 2007). Removal of superoxide helps to block its reaction with NO. In the brain this blocks the formation of peroxynitrite (mitochondrial toxin)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:58 AM

I do know that peroxynitrite is a major player in SAH and CVA. And it appears this is one of the substances that cause BBB disruption and the problems associated with vasospasm. It also appears to play a major role in the breakdown of the gut lining in many neurosurgical diseases.

141171c0810650168d82601d85cfa5a3

(415)

on June 30, 2012
at 11:11 AM

I'd have to agree that running on fat seems best. Calorie restriction increases longevity. It also promotes fatty acid synthesis and oxidation. These CR mice are actually creating fat just to burn it instead of burning CHO directly. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19887594

9
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 06, 2011
at 02:30 PM

You might find this paper interesting: How mitochondria produce reactive oxygen species

While there may be something to the balance of ROS formed from NADH, this is at least somewhat balanced, if not outweighed, by the fact that glucose doesn't produce byproducts that can hang around with inefficient oxidation to become peroxidized. Lipids do. Indeed there's really no "incomplete" glucose oxidation at the point of the mitochondria since up to pyruvate occurs in the cytosol whereas beta-oxidation of fatty acids occurs within the mitochondria.

ROS formation is also not necessarily detrimental, it plays an important signalling role. See, for example: Hydrogen peroxide: a Jekyll and Hyde signalling molecule

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 05:05 PM

Lots of 'tards here. I'll up-vote you just for spite.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 06, 2011
at 05:01 PM

OK ... I'm just curious. Why would someone down-vote this reply?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:10 PM

Evelyn: You've written about incomplete FA oxidation before, right? Your blog is so jam-packed with info that I don't know where to start.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 07, 2011
at 01:26 PM

Thanks Edward :-) @Lucas: I've only recently been blogging on the mitos per se, but the FA "lipotoxicity" has been a topic I've blogged on quite a bit. Which reminds me that the following post is almost three months old, and I've got several half-baked posts sitting in the draft bin: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/intracellular-fatty-acid-metabolism.html This post/study was a turning point in this thought process: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/11/fat-futile-cycling-from-carb-excess.html There can be no doubt that fats burn dirty, I would say dirtier, than carbs.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 07, 2011
at 01:30 PM

I wonder, too, if ROS → dysfunction → metabolic mahem and accelerated aging, and carbs → more ROS than fats, then why does RQ decline with age, but is preserved in the longest living women in the study that was the subject of this blog post?: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/do-carb-burners-live-longer.html

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Oh yeah, this is just what I was looking for; thanks.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:31 PM

Whoa...the cellular microcosm just blew my mind. That explains so much about fuel selection issues.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on December 29, 2011
at 02:51 PM

lol so much for VLC

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:22 PM

Nice Lucas. The paper you cited is in line with Rosedale:

Another implication of the hypothesis is that it may be possible to reverse age-related impairments by producing carefully controlled hypoglycemia at levels lower than can be produced by optimum dietary restriction.

This is also what T.Ely claims, vitamin C researcher, independently from Rosedale.

There are more things to consider.

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2605959

Two modes of operation by isolated mitochondria result in significant O2?????? production, predominantly from complex I: (i) when the mitochondria are not making ATP and consequently have a high ??p (protonmotive force) and a reduced CoQ (coenzyme Q) pool; and (ii) when there is a high NADH/NAD+ ratio in the mitochondrial matrix.

... and eating fat provides more CoQ10. But ROS might be good also, via mitohormesis
http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16242247

"Reactive oxygen species, derived from the mitochondrial electron transport system, may be necessary triggering elements for a sequence of events that result in benefits ranging from the transiently cytoprotective to organismal-level longevity"

but not if you are old enough http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/jphysiol.2011.206623/full

The causes of this increased oxidative damage are uncertain, but substantial data now indicate that the ability of skeletal muscle from aged organisms to respond to an increase in ROS generation by increased expression of cytoprotective proteins through activation of redox-sensitive transcription factors is severely attenuated

So there are other things to consider, obviously, apart from glucose and fat

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:29 PM

cream causes even more ROS than glucose

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:08 PM

@cliff: vit c has no effect on ROS generation and it is antioxidant ? thats strange ... :) do better research...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:23 PM

no i'm quoting the info in the study, ascorbic acid had no significant effect over the control on ROS production.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Yes, that sounds right. I can say from personal experience, it can definitely be symptom of toxicity.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:49 PM

whats so suspicious about it?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:44 PM

I believe that is not correct cliff. Fat induced ROS is due to endotoxemia: "Our data show clearly for the first time that the intake of either 33 g cream or 75 g glucose resulted in a significant increase in the expression o f SOC S3 mRNA in the circulating MNCs. With cream, this increase was observed at 1 h and continued until at least 5 h, at which time the experiment ended. Glucose caused an increase in SOCS3, which peaked at 1 h (83% over baseline) and was still elevated at 5h"... "the intake of cream resulted in an increase in both plasma LPS concentration and TLR-4 expression"

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:51 PM

*whats so suspicious about it?* : I don't know yet, thats why I used that word instead "wrong" :) N is too small to be honest for his major study and there is no clear dietary breakdown for both ad-libitum and intervention diet HCHF.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:27 PM

*we also both know you don't have a time machine* But I have brainz instead. Its enough to go to bazaar and stand near strawberriy stand - there will be bunch of people asking how sweet it is and passing if its not. Genetic manipulation solves that issue.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:14 PM

*ely clearly has some wrong conclusions, he says we aren't adapted to sugar but we evolved from fruit eating primates* Maybe, but understand that fruit **then** and fruit **now** are two distinct things.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

@cliff, I think there are two separate issues here: 1) The ROS produced as a byproduct of metabolizing macronutrients in your mitochondria. 2) The postprandial ROS producing effects of macronutrients while they are floating around in your blood after eating.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:28 PM

Obviously .....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:13 PM

you can see for yourself on the graph...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Not maybe :D ....

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:45 PM

Immune system will adapt to higher fat levels. Vitamin C prevents that too. See Endotoxins and vit C http://www.vitaminc.co.nz/pdf/ENDOTOXIN-AND-VITAMIN-C.pdf. Carbs block C.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:11 PM

You seem to be in the worst group cliff: lots of milk (casein and cream) + glucose :)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:25 PM

why are you so focused on attacking my dietary choices?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 03:38 PM

This forum sux. We can't even chit chat here like normal people.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:31 PM

Oj causes similar blood gluoses concentrations as pure glucose but has little effect on ROS.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:50 PM

*whats so suspicious about it?* : I don't know. Thats why I said suspicious :)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:55 PM

ely clearly has some wrong conclusions, he says we aren't adapted to sugar but we evolved from fruit eating primates.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 02:31 PM

I step away for my mid-day nap and come back to you all bickering like a bunch of school girls :)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:59 PM

I personally think ron is going to go after these points to a big degree. I also think telomere biology completely does not support any of the safe starches assumption and guys like harris and paul need to read this work and think about implications. This science is brand spanking new and many paleo folks are in the dark about it. Its part of my quilt and i know ron and assume lucas is well aware of it because it ties directly to the mitochondrial theory of aging which is currently replacing the older theories of aging and neolithic disease generation.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:26 PM

fructose causes less ROS than fat or prot

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:59 PM

.. and vitamin C helps A LOT with that. Thats why I always say that C + HF paleo is win win combination.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

*you can see for yourself on the graph.* Are you seriously questioning vitamin C antioxidant capabilities? Seriously ? Get real dude.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:34 PM

@The Quilt, make sure you account for Okinawa in your theory as well.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:48 PM

i'm referring to these 2 studies ajcn.org/content/75/4/767.full http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html cream is at 200 at 2h and glucose is at 175

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:32 PM

*why are you so focused on attacking my dietary choices?* Because I like - you are turtle protector. I want to see you live very long. (j/k, i don't really care about ur dietary choices, I don't know how did you get that - I probably choose bad model for provocation)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:51 PM

"Immune system will adapt to higher fat levels." how?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:45 PM

@cliff: you are probably basing your conclusions on recent Jaminets article which is suspicious to say at least.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:34 PM

the paper by tely is very interesting, especially the part about b6

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:55 PM

*cream is at 200 at 2h and glucose is at 175* - the problem: cream is not single substance such is glucose. Cream can be anything and I don't see what it is from the study - it can contain hormones and antibiotics for instance.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:47 PM

Rosedale sits on "hypoglycemia part". How you produce it, is another topic, but I almost sure its not by eating sugar.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:37 PM

thats in vitro though so mabe the effect is different in vivo

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:27 PM

milk comes with plenty of b6 though and is low in methinione/trytophan and it doesn't need to be cooked.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:36 PM

@Edward: Now we know what you were dreaming about... feel lonely? I can send you e-mail periodically if you want ... BTW, there is no bickering. I am a main cheerleader here.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:35 PM

@cliff I drink 1.5 L of rocket fuel as well :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:57 PM

*how* More fat means more endotoxins as those are lipoplisacharide (LPS). Minute differences in LPS are very bad for organism and consequently immune system re-calibrates to new fat regieme as it keeps endotoxin level in check (by changing the way it kills/controls microbiota which release endotoxins after they burst). This may be reason for low carb high fat flue tbh.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:33 PM

This raised the question whether the presence of flavonoids and vitamin C exerted an ROS and NF-B binding suppressive effect or that fructose, the other major sugar in orange juice, may be suppressive of ROS generation and NF-B binding. Therefore, we tested these possibilities in a separate series of experiment conducted in vitro. We were able to demonstrate that fructose and ascorbic acid did not suppress ROS generation, whereas hesperetin and naringenin inhibited ROS generation by 52 and 77%, respectively, at micromolar concentrations

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:19 PM

@majkinetor Ha! I think dreaming might be a symptom of toxicity.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:02 PM

according to the one study vit c had no effect on ROS generation. The antioxidants in oranges have a muhgreter effect on ros production. check out the last chart http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.full.pdf+html

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:18 PM

i eat very little pure glucose. The milk issue is interesting but I need prot and milk is imo safer than meat for the reasons outlined in tely's paper. I'm also not claiming anything like rosendale and the quilt, my personal diet could potentially be harmful. Obviously I don't think that:)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:29 PM

*ascorbic acid had no significant effect over the control on ROS production* Thats BS. Vitamin C recycles vitamin E and Vitamin E controls it: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0891584999001215

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 03:37 PM

@Edward: I doubt that... babies are known to be 70% in REM phase. That said, lucid dreaming might be toxic to the soul :P Sleeping shouldn't be lucid but relaxing and reseting experience.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:44 PM

i don't get where rosendale sits on this issue, doesn't he know that very high carb diets produce the lowest bs values while very low carb diets generally produce the highest?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:00 PM

do you have literature on your endotoxin/fat theory?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:20 PM

@Matthew: there is also a third issues here: ROS produced by immune system by dietary changes.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:06 PM

*do you have literature on your endotoxin/fat theory* Its not mine theory. I posted vitamin C related data. There is a lot of references there. For other data see: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1765 http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/02/fats-absorbing-endotoxin.html

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:49 PM

BTW, cliff, Ely also talks about complex carbs: *"So, it was essentially known circa the early 1970's that CVD and diabetes were preventable by a diet low in fat, sugar, and animal protein but high in complex carbohydrate and vegetable protein"*

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:54 PM

This is why so many of us have a problem with the safoe starch theories. The biochemistry does support it and the papers that the carb folks use are cherry picked to some degree. These organic chemistry issues are more cut to the point and why some of us believe mct and ketogenic diets can be very useful to get to optimal. When i read pauls response to ron i was perplexed that he made the distinction between perfect health and optimal longevity. He seems to think both can exist mutually and they can not. Its incongruent. Optimal longevity assume perfect health.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 01:58 PM

regardless fructose and fruits cause the lowest ROS response, i don't get how the low carb gurus can explain that one away.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 04, 2011
at 02:07 PM

@maj, can you send me an e-mail? edward dot edmonds at gmail dot com. I want to discus some of this. I woke up again feeling lonely... LOL

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:23 PM

@cliff: You don't read carefully. Ely said *"excesses of protein and fat with respect to intakes of pyridoxine (vitamin B6) and Mg"*. If you have those two right, no problem. *i eat very little pure glucose* how did you convince your tongue to produce less salivary amylase ?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:02 PM

Probably because it improves fat genesis and reduces ATP synthesis: *Acute loading of the liver with fructose causes sequestration of inorganic phosphate in fructose-l-phosphate and diminished ATP synthesis* http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/5/754S.full.pdf

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 03, 2011
at 02:21 PM

thanks for clarifying that mathew. @maj- http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ we also both know you don't have a time machine so you have no idea what thy had....

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 02:58 PM

@cliff These OJ papers demonstrate context, that's it. They show that a single molecule can have a certain effect in one context and a completely different effect in another context. Some of the other observations of the paper are interesting for mental masturbation but far from proving drinking 1.5 liters a day of OJ as a OPTIMAL energy source. That's why you perceive maj picking on you, he's not, you're trying to make a point that is not supported by this particular paper, you're picking on yourself because of your own doubts.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 03, 2011
at 03:57 PM

Doubt is a healthy response. :) Keep in mind REM doesn't necessarily mean you are consciously dreaming. I don't have a problem with unconscious dreaming i.e. you are not aware what you are dreaming about nor that you are dreaming (I prefer to call this processing, it's not till we become aware of this processing that it becomes a dream), it's the processing that happens during REM which leaks into the consciousness that I postulate is a symptom of toxicity.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:47 PM

@The Quilt, I was being a smart ass.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:18 AM

Anyone who does not think mitochondrial function needs to be optimized is lost in old science. Telomere biology is showing us all how vital it is. The ROS from the inner mitochondrial membrane determines the cellular fates and signal mito biogenesis and apoptosis. It is super critical.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:40 PM

Plus they practice IF basically AFAIK. If their longevity is due to mitochondria sparing, then this is yet another compelling reason that wee need to improve mito function.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:32 PM

Edward if you actually read my blog you would have seen i covered it long ago. The tanaka study shows okinawins longevity is not diet related at all but they have a novel mutation of cytochrome one that makes their mitochondria less leaky and this is there advantage. It has zero to do with their macronutrients as most believe.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Yes. Rats with hypothalamic lesions become obese due to impairment of thermogenesis of BAT cells. They also become hyperphagic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1875778/pdf/canmedaj01393-0060.pdf

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:53 PM

I'm Okinawan and have a couple centenarians in my family and few on the way; one just died in April at 106. My mothers side is not Okinawan but she has centenarians on her side as well. I'm aware of the mutation for the Okinawan's, but does this mutation exist outside of that population as well? @maj It's interesting you mention the IF, I have for as long as I remember been a natural IF'er. Essentially eating when I'm hungry and not eating when I'm not. Even during hard training, I have always ate comparatively little compared to some of the athletes I've trained with.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 04:54 PM

@maj could their insatiable appetites be caused by leaky mito?

0
6703135a07ac0865b822be6570956aea

on February 21, 2015
at 01:19 PM

The question depends on more things.

Lucas wrote:

1 molecule of glucose:

Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 5:1

1 molecule of palmitate:

Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 2:1

That is not true because if cells use glycerol-3-phosphate shuttle, it will be ratio 2:1 (8 NADH, 4 FADH). And many cells can use this system - The function and the role of the mitochondrial glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase in mammalian tissues

 

Palmitate creates NADH and FADH not only in Krebs cycle but also during B-oxidation and final ratio is almost 2:1 (31 NADH, 15 FADH). Lucas was right in this.  

However, there is difference between ROS produced on complex II, glycerol-3-phosphate shuttle or ETF (fatty acids use this system). 

 

Respiratory chain components involved in the glycerophosphate dehydrogenase-dependent ROS production by brown adipose tissue mitochondria:

The results showed that both substrates induced a similar ROS

production caused by the complex III but there was approximately

2.5-fold ROS generation associated with the dehydrogenase

in case of glycerophosphate compared to succinate.

 

So the question is difficult to answer. And it seems that ROS are not always bad 

 

0
B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 11:35 PM

Beta-oxidation of fatty acids doesn't only occur in the mitochondria, thus it isn't the only place where ROS generation can occur with fatty acid metabolism. Peroxisomes another cellular organelle is involved in beta-oxidation as well. The organelle handles long chain fatty acids breaks them down with an enzyme(s) and shuttles them off to the mitochondria . During the FA breakdown ROS is generated. If you???ve ever had a really fatty meal it???s my opinion the warming effect is a consequence of this reaction.

Peroxisomes have another use especially in leukocytes where they can produce hydrogen peroxide to kill pathogens. They play a role in the liver as well. And their malfunction is speculated to be involved in many different inflammatory diseases.

I think they are a double edge sword, on one hand they generate ROS on the other hand they play a role against pathogens and can scavenge ROS, etc. However, things can go wrong. The circumstances in which things go wrong from what I???ve seen aren???t yet completely clear.

Peroxisomes is one place you won't find glucose metabolism :)

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 06, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Actually it's incorrect to say FA metabolism (in the sense of metabolism meaning usefull energy is being produced) happens in Peroxisomes, it doesn't, the long chains just get broken down there.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 PM

If you can't access the paper e-mail me.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 PM

For a brief overview of Peroxisomes see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15241609

0
5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on November 02, 2011
at 10:58 PM

Good question. I always thought it was happening in the chain to get to the final product (Acetyl-COA) vs the final product. But I never looked into it.

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