6

votes

common ground between the experts?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 04, 2012 at 6:45 AM

can the community spitball a "beginner's" guide to the common nutrition ideas of PHD, robb wolf, chris kresser, jack kruse, kurt harris and ray peat? (i also think someone like david wolfe might be an expert, only because he arrived at health via a totally different methodology and still produced results)

i think for starters they all recommend no grains (except white rice) and legumes and Low PUFA, and everyone agrees that gut health is the most important thing.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 05:37 PM

conciliator, i think looking at it from the pov of an ancient tribesman, gelatin makes alot of sense. say we kill a buffalo, yes it has a lot of muscle meat but it also has lots of fat and lots of bone mass. we would need to make it last as long as possible. the fat would give us more energy than the meat, and the different amino profile from the bones and tendons as well as the minerals would be beneficial. eating primarily muscle meat even grass fed causes inflammation and congestion...

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on January 05, 2012
at 01:32 PM

I hear your point and the definition is vague, but at the same time for a beginner the idea is to stop eating processed food. Once you implement or at least start, then you can tinker with other food that are safe for you (like white rice or rice syrup). I don't think any one would call muscle meat processed (unless you are talking about eating sausage, bologna, etc). I better argument is that we are eating too much muscle meat compared to the rest of the animal. Eating offal and some bone broth shoudl compliment your muscle meat eating IMHO.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 05, 2012
at 04:09 AM

I'm not being sarcastic. Neither is Matt. Nobody has given as of yet a good reason as to why gelatin/bone broth should be emphasized. If you want more aminos, a complete source will beat gelatin every time. Whether or not we evolved eating head-to-toe does not mean we need to eat head-to-toe to be optimal. And it certainly doesn't mean we should *emphasize* bone broth gelatin. My issue is out of Kasra's 3 statements, the first is trivially true. The second is trivially true as any food offers no unique benefit. The third is asinine, gelatin is nutritionally crap compared to animal protein.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:59 AM

i think lentils might be okay for most people as they don't require much if any soaking?

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:58 AM

something else i think is important re: fats, specifically saturated fats is that animal sources and plant sources may have different and complimentary effects. i think i remember chinese medicine saying that plant fats were clearing and animal fats were building, but too much animal fat is congesting. the cycle was building/balancing/cleansing...

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:55 AM

i cant tell if some of the commenters are being sarcastic, but as for "why gelatin?" i think it's mainly because we supposedly evolved eating all the animal, and all the animal includes protein, minerals, fats and carbs from non-muscle sources. a different amino acid profile and ratios might make for less inflammation from dietary protein intake.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:51 AM

i think because in the 21st century most 1st worlders think broth is something you make from bullion cubes.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:50 AM

i think there's discrepancy with the definition of whole foods. considering that ancient people's probably never at much muscle meat by itself and we do, muscle meat could be considered a processed or refined food. likewise for brown rice syrup, however that is the only sugar source that doesn't give me terrible back pains. so i think "whole foods" is too vague and meaningless at this level of discussion.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:02 AM

@conciliator, as I've gotten older my joints have definitely benefited from bone broths/gelatin. My friends who use broths also report less joint pain. I tried glucosamine/chrondoityn and it didn't work nearly as well so went back to bone stews.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 05, 2012
at 02:29 AM

Bone broth seems to be a paleo rallying cry. I still can't get over how silly it sounds to say "bone" broth! As someone who grew up with real broths, it just sounds hokey. We're all talking about the same thing - why not say broth? Ok, useless aside concluded!

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on January 05, 2012
at 02:13 AM

@Matt, Just because your body can make non-essential amino acids, doesn't mean it makes enough. Which is why people reduce wrinkles etc by taking gelatin.

Fff58a1fd1e29d93fd6a25d3fdebbade

(400)

on January 05, 2012
at 12:08 AM

People can say whatever they want about HFCS...I will never ever eat it again.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 11:04 PM

Cause it's legit

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:55 PM

yup, this is why i mentioned in my response that legumes probably are fine if you prepare them properly (which most people wont). it all comes down to effort vs reward. to me, it's not worth the effort to soak the legumes for their nutritional profile. that being said, once in a blue moon, it might be nice for a chance and have a cup of lentils, just not part of my regular routine.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:46 PM

+1 for the only person to mention whole foods, that's the key right there.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:45 PM

Did I totally miss the chapter on the importance of bone broth in Robb Wolf's book? And what's so great about gelatin? It contains just non-essential amino acids, nothing in there you absolutely need!

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 04, 2012
at 09:40 PM

And last I checked beef offers no unique nutritional value. Neither does fish, poultry, eggs, vegetables, fruit, grains, starches, or milk.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 04, 2012
at 09:39 PM

pray tell why gelatin should be emphasized, cause Kasra if you're gonna go around throwing stones I'm gonna call out every ridiculous statement you make.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 04, 2012
at 08:47 PM

@Kasra, I agree that the "experts" agree it's natural for us to eat animal protein and the "nose to tail, head to foot" animal.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:20 PM

What part of an animal could be more biologically essential than the protein?

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:01 PM

Agree with the first two. For the third idea, I would suggest that it's more some amount of animal-based food, given that animal protein specifically is not biologically essential.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Again, the point is being made to "added sugar or HFCS ingredients", not endogenous sugar, which would be fruits and vegetables.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I think most people agree that excess fructose is harmful, whether in the form of HFCS or sugar. The question is whether sugar fructose is addictive and therefore a hepatotoxin. I think sugar is addictive to most people. Perhaps 25% of the population can exercise control, but I know that I can't once I start ingesting sugar.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:46 PM

I don't think these guys would argue that 'proper' fat is essential so much as that avoiding improper fat (excess PUFA) is essential.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:44 PM

Legume-hate is falling out. The word legume is no longer even mentioned on Kurt Harris' diet outline page.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:42 PM

Not many people are totally against HFCS, either. The majority opinion as of now seems to be that it behaves fairly similarly to sucrose, which itself is not toxic in moderation.

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7 Answers

15
2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on January 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

  1. Eat whole clean food (going organic when possible, and for protein going with animal protein that from grass fed/pastured sources favoring ruminants over poultry)
  2. Eliminate grains and legumes (some are okay with rice, and soaking legumes)
  3. Remove vegetable/seed oils from your diet as much as possible (replace w/ healthy saturated/mono-unsaturated fats instead)
  4. Get a hold on your stress
  5. Get good quality sleep
  6. Be active (try to move as much as possible, not exercise necessarily)
  7. Some sort of resistance training aka "Lift Heavy Things"

Once you have those down, you can tinker w/ macro ratio's. In terms of carbs, you will cut back on a lot of processed carbs, and extra sugar by sticking to mostly whole clean food. No reason you HAVE to be very low carb to be paleo.

Hopefully that helps.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:46 PM

+1 for the only person to mention whole foods, that's the key right there.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:50 AM

i think there's discrepancy with the definition of whole foods. considering that ancient people's probably never at much muscle meat by itself and we do, muscle meat could be considered a processed or refined food. likewise for brown rice syrup, however that is the only sugar source that doesn't give me terrible back pains. so i think "whole foods" is too vague and meaningless at this level of discussion.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on January 05, 2012
at 01:32 PM

I hear your point and the definition is vague, but at the same time for a beginner the idea is to stop eating processed food. Once you implement or at least start, then you can tinker with other food that are safe for you (like white rice or rice syrup). I don't think any one would call muscle meat processed (unless you are talking about eating sausage, bologna, etc). I better argument is that we are eating too much muscle meat compared to the rest of the animal. Eating offal and some bone broth shoudl compliment your muscle meat eating IMHO.

6
9de28a80b0dea81e50495aa5bf28184b

(180)

on January 04, 2012
at 08:06 AM

IMHO, Stress management (good sleep, walking, loving, etc...) are in the TOP 3

5
7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:03 PM

Seed-oil PUFA.

That seems to be the ground common to most within the Ancestral/Paleo camp.

Some of the various "experts" don't have problems with nuts (PUFA), some are okay with white rice (a grain), a few like Kresser have questioned whether non-peanut non-soy legumes are that big of a deal, and I am not sure everybody would say gut-health is most important (some might say brain health or liver health or whatever, or some might say inflammation in general is most important.)

I don't think anybody is fan of man-made trans-fats or high-fructose corn syrup either, but that is kind of a given.

Fff58a1fd1e29d93fd6a25d3fdebbade

(400)

on January 05, 2012
at 12:08 AM

People can say whatever they want about HFCS...I will never ever eat it again.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:42 PM

Not many people are totally against HFCS, either. The majority opinion as of now seems to be that it behaves fairly similarly to sucrose, which itself is not toxic in moderation.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Again, the point is being made to "added sugar or HFCS ingredients", not endogenous sugar, which would be fruits and vegetables.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I think most people agree that excess fructose is harmful, whether in the form of HFCS or sugar. The question is whether sugar fructose is addictive and therefore a hepatotoxin. I think sugar is addictive to most people. Perhaps 25% of the population can exercise control, but I know that I can't once I start ingesting sugar.

5
Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on January 04, 2012
at 08:07 AM

I think all of them think some amount of animal protein is necessary. Ray Peat recommends gelatin, and Bone Broth is widely recommended.

Stress management is in common, but ray peat is probably an outlier in the recommendations.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 05, 2012
at 02:29 AM

Bone broth seems to be a paleo rallying cry. I still can't get over how silly it sounds to say "bone" broth! As someone who grew up with real broths, it just sounds hokey. We're all talking about the same thing - why not say broth? Ok, useless aside concluded!

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:51 AM

i think because in the 21st century most 1st worlders think broth is something you make from bullion cubes.

3
5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:40 PM

Ideas I have found to be undisputed:

  • The average person eats way too much PUFA
  • Gluten grains are harmful, or at the very least offer no unique nutritional value
  • Some amount of animal protein is essential (emphasis on bone broth/gelatin)

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 04, 2012
at 09:39 PM

pray tell why gelatin should be emphasized, cause Kasra if you're gonna go around throwing stones I'm gonna call out every ridiculous statement you make.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 04, 2012
at 08:47 PM

@Kasra, I agree that the "experts" agree it's natural for us to eat animal protein and the "nose to tail, head to foot" animal.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:02 AM

@conciliator, as I've gotten older my joints have definitely benefited from bone broths/gelatin. My friends who use broths also report less joint pain. I tried glucosamine/chrondoityn and it didn't work nearly as well so went back to bone stews.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:20 PM

What part of an animal could be more biologically essential than the protein?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 04, 2012
at 09:40 PM

And last I checked beef offers no unique nutritional value. Neither does fish, poultry, eggs, vegetables, fruit, grains, starches, or milk.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:45 PM

Did I totally miss the chapter on the importance of bone broth in Robb Wolf's book? And what's so great about gelatin? It contains just non-essential amino acids, nothing in there you absolutely need!

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 05:37 PM

conciliator, i think looking at it from the pov of an ancient tribesman, gelatin makes alot of sense. say we kill a buffalo, yes it has a lot of muscle meat but it also has lots of fat and lots of bone mass. we would need to make it last as long as possible. the fat would give us more energy than the meat, and the different amino profile from the bones and tendons as well as the minerals would be beneficial. eating primarily muscle meat even grass fed causes inflammation and congestion...

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on January 05, 2012
at 04:09 AM

I'm not being sarcastic. Neither is Matt. Nobody has given as of yet a good reason as to why gelatin/bone broth should be emphasized. If you want more aminos, a complete source will beat gelatin every time. Whether or not we evolved eating head-to-toe does not mean we need to eat head-to-toe to be optimal. And it certainly doesn't mean we should *emphasize* bone broth gelatin. My issue is out of Kasra's 3 statements, the first is trivially true. The second is trivially true as any food offers no unique benefit. The third is asinine, gelatin is nutritionally crap compared to animal protein.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 04, 2012
at 07:01 PM

Agree with the first two. For the third idea, I would suggest that it's more some amount of animal-based food, given that animal protein specifically is not biologically essential.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 11:04 PM

Cause it's legit

Bb2adc4df725b56e99e0652c0feb4640

(254)

on January 05, 2012
at 02:13 AM

@Matt, Just because your body can make non-essential amino acids, doesn't mean it makes enough. Which is why people reduce wrinkles etc by taking gelatin.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:55 AM

i cant tell if some of the commenters are being sarcastic, but as for "why gelatin?" i think it's mainly because we supposedly evolved eating all the animal, and all the animal includes protein, minerals, fats and carbs from non-muscle sources. a different amino acid profile and ratios might make for less inflammation from dietary protein intake.

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 04, 2012
at 03:50 PM

Proper fat: grass fed animal fat, pastured butter, coconut oil, some fruit oils like olive and avocado (not sure about Ray Peat's opinion, I agree he is an outlier of the group).

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:46 PM

I don't think these guys would argue that 'proper' fat is essential so much as that avoiding improper fat (excess PUFA) is essential.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:58 AM

something else i think is important re: fats, specifically saturated fats is that animal sources and plant sources may have different and complimentary effects. i think i remember chinese medicine saying that plant fats were clearing and animal fats were building, but too much animal fat is congesting. the cycle was building/balancing/cleansing...

2
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 04, 2012
at 03:08 PM

Well, rice is a grain and PHD and Chris Kresser generally see no problem with white rice.

I think low PUFAs and no legumes is generally accepted, as is the importance of gut health.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 04, 2012
at 06:44 PM

Legume-hate is falling out. The word legume is no longer even mentioned on Kurt Harris' diet outline page.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on January 04, 2012
at 10:55 PM

yup, this is why i mentioned in my response that legumes probably are fine if you prepare them properly (which most people wont). it all comes down to effort vs reward. to me, it's not worth the effort to soak the legumes for their nutritional profile. that being said, once in a blue moon, it might be nice for a chance and have a cup of lentils, just not part of my regular routine.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on January 05, 2012
at 03:59 AM

i think lentils might be okay for most people as they don't require much if any soaking?

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