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Can we call Ray Cronise 'Paleo'?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 07, 2012 at 3:52 AM

Ray Cronise is a NASA scientist who is doing some pretty heady stuff with thermogenesis. He is studying Wim Hof, the dutchman who can stay immersed in ice for hours. Ray Cronise is eating a vegan diet while experimenting with thermal loading, but admits to 'loving meat'.

In his website, www.hypothermics.com', he's been exploring fats, carbs, and protein as well as BAT and a host of other issues of interest to the paleo hacker. I'd love to see him at AHS or the next Paleo Summit. Ray C. has an awesome TEDTALK video on YouTube and is featured in 4 Hr Body.

Can we give him honorary Paleo status?

91219405abedbfd400ce00dea242a00f

(1044)

on March 08, 2012
at 11:32 PM

Quilt, I definitely respect your work and all but those delusions of grandeur make you come off as manic.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on March 08, 2012
at 11:20 PM

I hope so Doc, he seems to be bright, but maybe misled. I don't have a horse in this race, whatever actual, real science shows, that's what I care about. AFAIK, eating raw potato isn't optimal, neither is eating vegan. :)

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:49 PM

It is very non-linear Dr. K. I've been trying to figure out how we learn for a while now, and all I can tell is that there is some kind of pattern matching going on. Logical arguments don't convince very many people. I am not so sure that science wins over dogma- look at politics. Even after 2008, no one has learned. They keep asking for or recommending the same policies that caused the problems in the first place.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:21 PM

The time is the only variable that it cant control.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:21 PM

But I have the science for him and he is listening.....The work of Patricia Kane coupled with my Ancient pathway blog is going to change paleo.....and medicine. Science always wins over dogma.

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on March 07, 2012
at 08:52 PM

A very timely question. I've just started experimenting with cold showers / pools as a weightlifting recovery aid and noticed that my brief weightloss stall broke within a couple days.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 07, 2012
at 08:04 PM

Id rather him at Paleo Fx because it is going to be clinically oreinted. AHS is not yet. Ray and I are just meshing so this Paleo fx issue came up too close for him.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 07, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Beth I dont think he is going to be vegan much longer. trust me on that.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 07, 2012
at 08:01 PM

We are talking about it Beth.....him and Wil Hof.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 07, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Yeah, Todd Becker has some great stuff on cold showers at his site (http://gettingstronger.org/2010/03/cold-showers/) but he's actually experimenting with cold baths as well.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 07, 2012
at 02:31 PM

Dr. K, hope you encourage him to attend AHS12.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 07, 2012
at 01:32 PM

If there's anything that makes me cold, it's a vegan diet :D.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 07, 2012
at 12:32 PM

Ray and I are now working together.

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4 Answers

2
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:29 PM

From what I've read so far, he does seem to have somewhat of an anti-meat stance, which would disqualify him from being considered considered paleo. Again, I've not read a lot yet, I've not yet seen him state that he's actually a vegetarian or not, so take this as a first, not-fully formed, opinion.

Here's one comment:

The "chicken and cheese" in the text below is a link to a google scholar search on animal protein and heart disease.

http://hypothermics.com/2011/10/carbohydrates-part-3/#comment-746

Not sure where you read you can???t eat a raw potato, that is simply not true. ... Grain does not lead to disease and you???ll not find any work to support the notion.

Absolutely not paleo, and certainly untrue.

I???m not so sure I???d take bets on your bypass. Perhaps you save the pico and avocado and throw away the chicken and the cheese.

Here's another:

http://hypothermics.com/2011/10/carbohydrates-part-3/#comment-749

There are no ???bad??? macronutrients, only over consumption of calorie. Despite books to the contrary, calories are calories,

I absolutely disagree with his sentiment that "calories are calories." There are vast differences between calories from carbs, calories from fat, calories from alcohol, calories from protein. There are vast differences between one protein and another, from one kind of carb and another, between one kind of fat, and another on the effects on your health. For example a gram of MCT oil has completely different effects from a gram of n-6 PUFA from hydrogenized soy bean oil. Thinking purely in terms of energy output ignores the differences in the effects of these molecules on our health, and how they are burned for energy.

He advocates not thinking of foods as carbs (or fats, or proteins), which makes sense as all foods are combinations of these things. On a purely technical level, I do agree with that sentiment, although I tend to think of lean meats as "protein", and of things like sweet potatoes as "carbs", even though they contain some proteins, so he certainly did point out a flaw in my own thinking. :)

I'm still reading his stuff, but there is some interesting stuff, but there is some vegetarian dogma.

Remember kiddies, if your diet consists of mainly plants, it's impossible to get that from the wild. As Cordain shows in his book, there were no indigenous cultures that ate a zero animal-product diet in our paleolithic past, because they could not gather enough plants to meet their caloric and nutrient requirements. So by definition, a vegetarian diet must come after agriculture, and domestication (assuming ovo-lacto for this part). Therefore, not paleo by definition.

From this post: http://hypothermics.com/2011/11/fat-part-1/

Since most hormones, all cell walls, and the primary energy storage is all based in a FAT economy, don???t you think we would have a few extra processes hanging around? Eating is one activity and our preferred, day to day, economy of energy is carbohydrate ??? glucose.

I'd disagree that glucose is preferred fuel. It can be A fuel, however, mostly burning glucose has some nasty effects, such as reactive oxygen species and AGE formation, not to mention insulin spikes. Indeed, since all cell walls and the primary store is fat, why prefer glucose over fat?

http://hypothermics.com/2011/12/fat-part-2/

The reason I enjoy a vegan diet is that I LOVE to eat and eating stops after you swallow. I can simply eat a tremendous volume of food and not have to worry. Unlike most ???vegans??? (I use it as an adjective, not a noun)

Ok, so he's a vegan then.

http://hypothermics.com/2011/11/fat-part-1/#comment-801

...

and right now we have record heart disease and chronic illness from the mass quantity of fried food and saturated fat diet (dairy and meat).

Ok, he's got a lot to learn about saturated fats.

http://hypothermics.com/2011/11/fat-part-1/#comment-820

On the other hand you CAN live on ONLY rice or a potato and not starve. A potato is a COMPLETE food source as is rice.

Really? What about the missing aminos that you couldn't get from a potato or rice? I call BS on this. If you do this, you'll catabolize muscle tissue to get at the needed aminos for repair processes, including heart tissue! Not a good idea for a diet!

http://hypothermics.com/2011/11/fat-part-1/#comment-810

Not sure where you read you can???t eat a raw potato, that is simply not true. ... So, he's never heard of Solanine?

He's a bright guy, and has plenty of useful things to share, but not paleo. Maybe Dr. Kruse can bring him away from the dark side of the force. :)

For example, I especially enjoyed this post: http://hypothermics.com/2012/01/the-new-eye-on-batd/

But even here, there's BS:

A long time before 5-toe shoes and grown men (and women) running through NYC Central Park beating their chest and throwing boulders, we were far more like the bird sitting on your back porch (unless you are looking at a pigeon ??? they don???t count); we starved. If you look all around you and ignore domesticated animals (including pigeons and rats), you will find that every animal is starving. They live to eat every day and it is a struggle to find calorie. It is THE struggle that anthropologist are still trying to unravel with Humans.

Sure, we starved, that's why the skeletons of humans from the paleolithic were so very strong, and thick, because there were no muscles on them, and they had great teeth because they were starving... Riiiight... And what few hunter-gatherers exists out there today are starving, yeah, riiiight.... If our ancestors didn't thrive, they would have gone extinct and we would not exist! Yet, we're the apex predator.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:49 PM

It is very non-linear Dr. K. I've been trying to figure out how we learn for a while now, and all I can tell is that there is some kind of pattern matching going on. Logical arguments don't convince very many people. I am not so sure that science wins over dogma- look at politics. Even after 2008, no one has learned. They keep asking for or recommending the same policies that caused the problems in the first place.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:21 PM

The time is the only variable that it cant control.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:21 PM

But I have the science for him and he is listening.....The work of Patricia Kane coupled with my Ancient pathway blog is going to change paleo.....and medicine. Science always wins over dogma.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on March 08, 2012
at 11:20 PM

I hope so Doc, he seems to be bright, but maybe misled. I don't have a horse in this race, whatever actual, real science shows, that's what I care about. AFAIK, eating raw potato isn't optimal, neither is eating vegan. :)

91219405abedbfd400ce00dea242a00f

(1044)

on March 08, 2012
at 11:32 PM

Quilt, I definitely respect your work and all but those delusions of grandeur make you come off as manic.

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 07, 2012
at 05:04 PM

I have been a member of Ray's site for quite some time. I have been getting the benefits of 'thermal load' as Ray calls it by taking cool showers and lowering my house thermostat. Cold Thermogenesis doesn't have to be drastic, swimming in 70-80 deg water is a huge thermal load on the body.

Couple Ray's thermal loading with The Quilt and you have a recipe for success!

Thermal Loading alone helped me break through a huge plateau with a strict paleo diet that included some of the 'safe starches'. I'm thermal loading now with a ketogenic diet and hope to see a few more changes.

RAY CRONISE = PALEO (whether he wants that label or not)

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 07, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Yeah, Todd Becker has some great stuff on cold showers at his site (http://gettingstronger.org/2010/03/cold-showers/) but he's actually experimenting with cold baths as well.

2
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 07, 2012
at 01:24 PM

I've been a subscriber to Ray's site for a while now. Aside from the vegan thing (a big aside I grant), I think he's certainly paleo friendly. I too would love to see him at AHS.

I've been experimenting with baby thermogenesis (aka thermogenesis for wimps) because I've been having to do pool sessions for my back anyways. While I'm making progress on the weight front, I'll probably stick to that. But if/when I hit a stall, I'd certainly consider experimenting with the hard-core route with ice baths etc.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 07, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Beth I dont think he is going to be vegan much longer. trust me on that.

1
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 07, 2012
at 07:07 PM

He's interesting, but he ain't paleo until he starts eating right. He also loses points for not having a full feed sans sign up and all that nonsense. I've got 709 feeds in my feed reader; you start making me click and sign in and stuff- well, is your info worth the slowdown?

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