6

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deleted by user

Edited on September 07, 2015
Created November 03, 2011 at 4:15 PM

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59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on August 29, 2012
at 05:05 AM

Yes, the flushing is a thing of the past, pretty much. Sugar, I think, knocked that out pretty fast. I even got some relief from that while simply adding ice cream into a paleo diet. I will sometimes get flushed if I have a meal with too much protein and not enough sugar, very similar to Korion's experience. Another thing is I went full-on low PUFA, so I stopped taking fish oil or CLO, which never did anything for me anyways.

F2f559fe327007fd064a0f5bd79d6278

(156)

on August 27, 2012
at 06:55 PM

Cool. And the flushing has totally stopped? That's the hardest symptom to control for me.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on August 27, 2012
at 07:03 AM

Not James, that's great. I think the most impact came from switching from vegetables/starch to fruit as my main sources of calories (especially with the puffiness), stopping almost all muscle meat (gelatin, shellfish, liver, eggs, cheese, and milk as sources of protein). For a while, I did everything peat but continued to eat a lot of potatoes and meat, because I didn't think fruit could fill me up, but once I knocked those out it's really been working and I still feel satisfied after meals.

F2f559fe327007fd064a0f5bd79d6278

(156)

on August 25, 2012
at 05:47 AM

Glad to hear you're doing better. I'm mostly (not entirely) doing better as well and no longer on anything resembling a paleo diet. So, it sounds like switching to a Peat-inspired diet could have meant a number of different changes depending on where you were starting from. what do you think the key dietary changes were in your case?

Bfa1c9eacfc94a1b62f3a39b574480c6

(3700)

on August 24, 2012
at 06:50 AM

I'm glad you solved your problem! Out of curiosity, what's an example day for you? What exactly did you add to the Paleo Template?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on August 24, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Jamie, this link is often passed around: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 24, 2012
at 03:49 AM

What exactly is a ray peat diet? Ive read some of his material, but I honestly ave no idea what kind of diet exactly he espouses. Is there a link that actually summarizes his ideas?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on August 24, 2012
at 02:44 AM

Yes, in fact. Just updated the post for you.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 20, 2012
at 10:27 PM

Yeah I don't think that VLC necessarily means any of those bad things. But as you say, some people...

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 20, 2012
at 04:59 AM

Simply uncanny how candida and autoimmune issues seem to flare up after you start VLCing. Yes, it seems to be the weakened immune system. Some do really well with VLC. However, a significant minority does terribly; they might feel good initially, but end up with all kinds of nasty issues 3 months down the road. Meanwhile, the LC contingent will claim that it's the failure of implementation that's causing the problem. Not so. VLC really doesn't work in some people.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 04, 2011
at 03:42 AM

@Beth: Thanks for the suggestion, just listened to it. The random on-off switch of the symptoms lead to a lot of red herrings, and it never quite fit changes in the diet. My doctor reluctantly played with the idea of Cushings, but just went down a list of symptoms we was reading off his computer, which I can do at home, then gave me a single cortisol test and dismissed it. That was the last test I could wrangle out of him. Seems if anything my cortisol is low for a 9am reading.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 04, 2011
at 12:21 AM

I made an attempt to explain that. VLC can cause hyperlipidemia which impairs the ability of the immune system to keep it at bay. It was just a guess.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 11:20 PM

I lowered the fat and protein when I added tubers. I didn't feel good with too much protein, and needed something to bulk up my meals and make them somewhat economical. The entire candida thing has always seemed like kind of an iffy catch-all to me, mainly because I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole of the treatment it entails, and I've never really heard of anyone getting definitive diagnosis-treatment-improvement from candida stuff. ALso, how would I now be experiencing issues with candida and not before on a terrible diet which candida would thrive on? That's the vexing part.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on November 03, 2011
at 10:35 PM

Thanks for the clarification on your comments!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:59 PM

I'm not entirely sure, I was just guessing in this case. Fructose is a problem, but I'm not sure about glucose. Paul thinks that hyperlipoproteinemia can impair the ability to fight candida, and so can a low glucose diet. I just said higher carb because the fat has a small but significant effect on lipoproteins. The biggest effect from low carb would actually probably be the reduced thyroid activity elevating serum lipoproteins.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:58 PM

I'm not entirely sure, I was just guessing in this case. Fructose is a problem, but I'm not sure about glucose. Paul thinks that hyperlipoproteinemia can impair the ability to fight candida, and so can a low glucose diet. I just said higher carb because the fat has a small but significant effect on lipoproteins. The biggest effect from low carb would actually probably be the reduced thyroid activity, which would be solved by somewhere in the range of 50g-150g of carbs.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:25 PM

Question about the candida: Is a moderate fat, high(er) carb, moderate protein diet the best for candida? I've seen different Rx's and am a little confused about it.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 03, 2011
at 07:07 PM

Go listen to Chris Kresser's most recent podcast. He made a similar point: cyclical nature of symptoms may suggest parasite infection, and it's something he looks at when the diet is dialed in. I'm also struck by the fact that two of your symptoms are cortisol-related (the puffy face is a symptom of Cushings). Anyways, if you weren't already seeing a doc, I'd suggest a see-a-doctor tag. This doesn't sound like garden variety issues with your diet.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:28 PM

@Dragonfly: What problems did upping the vit D address?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:19 PM

@smartcookie: Symptoms started before Mg supplementation. Someone had suggested a gut infection before, saying that this accounts for the cyclical nature of my symptoms, where I have a couple of days of relief every few weeks, saying it corresponds to the life cycle of the bacteria. Seems like there would be a more obvious symptoms for an infection?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:13 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm eating enough, though I haven't put it into fit day for a while. I did IF for a while, skipping breakfast, but it didn't make much of a difference. When I first went paleo, like the first week, I didn't know I had to up the fat, and was noticeably tired from the caloric deficit. I don't feel that way now.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:12 PM

@Terry: My first thought was thyroid too. Of course my Dr just ordered TSH, which was 1.44 uIU/mL. The only other abnormalities was slight hypoglycemia with no symptoms from oral glucose test (which I could have guessed, ie the effect of sugar on most of us here) but I know this is under control with paleo. Liver enzymes were slightly elevated, in the 30's. They said it was nothing to worry about, as I've had issues with alcohol in the past, but have been sober for a year. My ALT was fine when I first got sober and was on SAD, but they've crept up a little.

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

(1652)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:01 PM

A parasite/infection? Too much magnesium? A few shots in the dark...

32123f4f25bdf6a7b70c9c2a719386ed

(396)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:48 PM

What did your lab work look like? Have you been tested for thyroid disease? If so could you post the numbers as doctors don't in general read these tests with more than a modicum of knowledge about the thyroid and what is actually normal.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:45 PM

You may want to take supplemental D to balance out the amount of A in your FCLO. Getting my D level higher has made all the difference in the world to my health. The only other thing that has helped is dropping eggs for awhile. I ate so many, I became intolerant & was having inflammatory symptoms.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:28 PM

It's frustrating, especially when the symptoms are so vague in the eyes of doctors. I tell them my face is puffy and they expect the elephant man to walk into their office, or that I've gained belly fat, yet I'm still pretty slim by American standards. I've been brushing my teeth in the mirror every day of my life, and I know when I look different. Lately I've been getting comments at work like "Have a rough night?"

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:18 PM

@Nance: I've considered that, and noticed I felt worse eating more meat, while supplementing zinc for acne, and thought perhaps it was too much. But I've stopped zinc and don't eat a lot of straight muscle-meat, or a ton of protein beyond what's necessary. But still feel off. I eat shellfish 1-2 per week and offal maybe once every 2 weeks.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:08 PM

@Dragonfly: 45ish. I supplement with 1/2 tsp of FLCO daily.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:07 PM

@Meredith: Male, carb/protein/fat is about 25/15/60. More protein in the mornings, less at night. I have an active job where I'm running around most of the time, also live in San Francisco and walk everywhere, but nothing like crossfit. Keep in mind I was more sedentary before paleo, and ate mostly carbs.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:07 PM

Something's definitely getting between you and your food, and I doubt SAD would heal it. Could you be getting TOO MUCH of something, such as iron or some other nutrient that has a maximum/too much value?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:03 PM

What's your D level?

18d89478c2fbd0a69889ae094f5fa5d3

(418)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Withdrawl/Dextox from something from SAD? Your body needs time to heal, you've most likely damaged the hell out of it through years and years of abuse.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:51 PM

Tried strict elimination, autoimmune protocol. Still had symptoms, plus was miserable from the paranoia about what I was eating. Usually emphasize fat, but started eating more starch. No real change, but feel better than when I was on VLC/autoimmune. My appetite seems fine. Eat 3 times a day. If I eat sugar I get voracious. My job is active and I move around a lot. My sleep was much improved (in fact, it was beautiful, waking up at dawn, no more insomnia) when I first went paleo, but those benefits are now weaning. I'm waking up later and feeling heavy/hungover.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:37 PM

What are your macros too - carbs, protein and fat. Also what kind of exercise do you do? Crossfit? Also, what's your gender?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:33 PM

Highish fat paleo w/ tubers, mostly. Coconut oil, ghee, game, shellfish, organs, broth, plenty of vegetables, very occasional fruit (don't crave it), no nuts. Nothing too out there. I went down that whole elimination route and it didn't work, and I've stopped trying to blame certain food groups because that makes no sense chronologically. Anything I suspected I ate far more excessively on SAD.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:28 PM

HMM i had all those symptoms for a while.... im not exactly sure what i changed though besides making sure my sources of fat were LEGIT(not from a grocery store...) and dont eat a lot at night, especially protein

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:22 PM

What's your diet like? (I looked way worse when I started paleo because I ate nuts and fruits, I don't know about you).

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8 Answers

2
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:37 PM

Sounds like a candida overgrowth. In one of his posts, Paul Jaminet noted that both high HDL and LDL can potentially promote a candida overgrowth, and if you were doing a VLC diet then you might have run into that. http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4066

So have you tried doing something like 50% carbs, 30% fat and 20% protein, or did you just add a cup or two of tubers to your already low carb high fat diet? Try taking pantethine, it is really good for combating the toxic effects of candida. http://www.wellnessresources.com/studies/pantethine_activates_aldehyde_dehydrogenase/ and it also helps to efficiently metabolize blood lipids. Give it a month with it and see if that helps while you work on candida. I don't know if it really is a candida infection but it is a good guess. You might have to be patient and work at it with anti-fungals.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:58 PM

I'm not entirely sure, I was just guessing in this case. Fructose is a problem, but I'm not sure about glucose. Paul thinks that hyperlipoproteinemia can impair the ability to fight candida, and so can a low glucose diet. I just said higher carb because the fat has a small but significant effect on lipoproteins. The biggest effect from low carb would actually probably be the reduced thyroid activity, which would be solved by somewhere in the range of 50g-150g of carbs.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 04, 2011
at 12:21 AM

I made an attempt to explain that. VLC can cause hyperlipidemia which impairs the ability of the immune system to keep it at bay. It was just a guess.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:25 PM

Question about the candida: Is a moderate fat, high(er) carb, moderate protein diet the best for candida? I've seen different Rx's and am a little confused about it.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on November 03, 2011
at 10:35 PM

Thanks for the clarification on your comments!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on November 03, 2011
at 09:59 PM

I'm not entirely sure, I was just guessing in this case. Fructose is a problem, but I'm not sure about glucose. Paul thinks that hyperlipoproteinemia can impair the ability to fight candida, and so can a low glucose diet. I just said higher carb because the fat has a small but significant effect on lipoproteins. The biggest effect from low carb would actually probably be the reduced thyroid activity elevating serum lipoproteins.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 11:20 PM

I lowered the fat and protein when I added tubers. I didn't feel good with too much protein, and needed something to bulk up my meals and make them somewhat economical. The entire candida thing has always seemed like kind of an iffy catch-all to me, mainly because I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole of the treatment it entails, and I've never really heard of anyone getting definitive diagnosis-treatment-improvement from candida stuff. ALso, how would I now be experiencing issues with candida and not before on a terrible diet which candida would thrive on? That's the vexing part.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 20, 2012
at 04:59 AM

Simply uncanny how candida and autoimmune issues seem to flare up after you start VLCing. Yes, it seems to be the weakened immune system. Some do really well with VLC. However, a significant minority does terribly; they might feel good initially, but end up with all kinds of nasty issues 3 months down the road. Meanwhile, the LC contingent will claim that it's the failure of implementation that's causing the problem. Not so. VLC really doesn't work in some people.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 20, 2012
at 10:27 PM

Yeah I don't think that VLC necessarily means any of those bad things. But as you say, some people...

2
1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:26 PM

I didn't notice you saying how many calories you're eating daily. Perhaps you're not actually eating as much as is required by your body and the abdominal fat is a stress response. You mentioned you're very active so that may come into play.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:13 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm eating enough, though I haven't put it into fit day for a while. I did IF for a while, skipping breakfast, but it didn't make much of a difference. When I first went paleo, like the first week, I didn't know I had to up the fat, and was noticeably tired from the caloric deficit. I don't feel that way now.

2
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:24 PM

I agree with you that something isn't right, but you haven't given us enough info to make intelligent guesses.

While you're in the consultation process with your doctor, you need to take another look at which foods you're eating plus when.

Have you tried a Whole30 or a strict elimination diet? How did you react to that? Do you start your day with meat/fat before moving on to veggies? Do you normally emphasize fat or starch? What happens when you reverse that?

Is your appetite good, or is it off? How much do you move around? How's your sleep?

The questions are endless ...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:07 PM

Something's definitely getting between you and your food, and I doubt SAD would heal it. Could you be getting TOO MUCH of something, such as iron or some other nutrient that has a maximum/too much value?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:18 PM

@Nance: I've considered that, and noticed I felt worse eating more meat, while supplementing zinc for acne, and thought perhaps it was too much. But I've stopped zinc and don't eat a lot of straight muscle-meat, or a ton of protein beyond what's necessary. But still feel off. I eat shellfish 1-2 per week and offal maybe once every 2 weeks.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:12 PM

@Terry: My first thought was thyroid too. Of course my Dr just ordered TSH, which was 1.44 uIU/mL. The only other abnormalities was slight hypoglycemia with no symptoms from oral glucose test (which I could have guessed, ie the effect of sugar on most of us here) but I know this is under control with paleo. Liver enzymes were slightly elevated, in the 30's. They said it was nothing to worry about, as I've had issues with alcohol in the past, but have been sober for a year. My ALT was fine when I first got sober and was on SAD, but they've crept up a little.

32123f4f25bdf6a7b70c9c2a719386ed

(396)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:48 PM

What did your lab work look like? Have you been tested for thyroid disease? If so could you post the numbers as doctors don't in general read these tests with more than a modicum of knowledge about the thyroid and what is actually normal.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:51 PM

Tried strict elimination, autoimmune protocol. Still had symptoms, plus was miserable from the paranoia about what I was eating. Usually emphasize fat, but started eating more starch. No real change, but feel better than when I was on VLC/autoimmune. My appetite seems fine. Eat 3 times a day. If I eat sugar I get voracious. My job is active and I move around a lot. My sleep was much improved (in fact, it was beautiful, waking up at dawn, no more insomnia) when I first went paleo, but those benefits are now weaning. I'm waking up later and feeling heavy/hungover.

1
Ba5b05f5c84750734b218e9f482103dc

on November 03, 2011
at 07:00 PM

Chriskresser.com has some interesting stuff about not having results with a Paleo type diet. If I remember correctly, it had something to do with gut flora and probiotics. I believe the gist was bad bacteria in the gut thrive on certain foods and wreak havoc in yer body. Looks like he just posted a podcast on his site regarding this.

0
0faecc3397025eab246241f4dcd81f5e

(2361)

on August 25, 2012
at 03:31 AM

Your update is very interesting.

More carbs! Some people just need them to function well.

This is interesting from Perfect health diet http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/diets/ray-peat-diet/

0
Bfa1c9eacfc94a1b62f3a39b574480c6

(3700)

on August 23, 2012
at 06:46 AM

Any solutions to this...? Updates?

Bfa1c9eacfc94a1b62f3a39b574480c6

(3700)

on August 24, 2012
at 06:50 AM

I'm glad you solved your problem! Out of curiosity, what's an example day for you? What exactly did you add to the Paleo Template?

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on August 24, 2012
at 02:44 AM

Yes, in fact. Just updated the post for you.

0
363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on November 03, 2011
at 06:33 PM

I would have your doctors do a full autoimmune blood work run up. There are a lot of people with some low titers of lupus or low antibodies to Sjogren's, but do not have the classic symptoms, just other weird symptoms.

0
D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on November 03, 2011
at 04:55 PM

You're obseravtions of yourself at not crazy. I've been thinking similar things about myself.

59d367d77f4082717bade07508624db8

(1198)

on November 03, 2011
at 05:28 PM

It's frustrating, especially when the symptoms are so vague in the eyes of doctors. I tell them my face is puffy and they expect the elephant man to walk into their office, or that I've gained belly fat, yet I'm still pretty slim by American standards. I've been brushing my teeth in the mirror every day of my life, and I know when I look different. Lately I've been getting comments at work like "Have a rough night?"

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