4

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Predictions for paleo who went 801010/fruit-based raw vegan?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 08, 2011 at 2:52 AM

He was once eating paleo but since has gone to raw vegan and eating mostly fruits. And he is liking it. One reason I have been watching with curiosity is because my impression is that he is not dogmatic about any one dietary belief system but instead is merely attempting to see what works best for him. Since he is very active, probably more than what any of us would consider normal or 'paleo' what works for him may be somewhat or a lot different than what works for the average person. However, I learn the most from observing that which does not fit my assumptions. My assumptions would be that by now, he would be feeling negative side effects from his current diet. But apparently not. What do people here think of his current dietary approach? Will his current diet and B-12 supps be enough for him long term? Will his success with this continue or will there be long term damage? Anyone want to comment on potential hidden dangers or make any educated predictions in advance on how this might go for him?

Ed0cb30f40daff568778b776b2a5a81d

(943)

on March 07, 2013
at 06:16 PM

How did your diet look to recover from kwashiorkor?

492ebe6681773ef79417d27445d441b7

(30)

on December 26, 2011
at 03:24 AM

Carbs are as fundamental to humanity as fire, cooking, and eating animals. Dear people, get off the dogma, and let your body direct. Cooked starches are fundamental to humanity going back well over a million years. And of course carb containing fruit is a fundamental in human dietary evolution and continual history for most populations.

83d6a06c93bb3490dbca339cbbb63385

(526)

on December 02, 2011
at 06:34 PM

People appear to thrive on long term fasts, too. Looking too closely to the trees, food isn't necessary at all!

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:49 PM

"but not a thrive diet". I'd rather do okay with muscle than thrive while looking like an anorexic. Sure you find fruit in Hawaii, but come to northern Europe and you won't be as optimistic. If I see fruits growing here, they are small and sour. Gotta admit I love sour fruits though. I always hated bananas.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:11 PM

I've been testing my blood sugar just for fun (probably not a bad idea at 64, right?) This morning, after honey/cream in my coffee then a brunch of fried duck with a grapefruit, banana, ripe pear and date with about 6 fresh cranberries I tested my glucose an hour later and it was 104. When I eat high-starch tubers, it spikes to the 140s an hour later. We're not all the same!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:08 PM

I definitely go on fruit binges, but after 2-3 days I'm starving for an omelet or piece of fatty beef. I don't know why I need both, but I can't go either pure fruit or pure meat. The food group I tend to be a little indifferent about is vegetables but then I like broccoli and asparagus and cauliflower at times.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 14, 2011
at 01:10 AM

Iny = in my... .

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 14, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Presumably, there are fruit overconsumption studies that have been linked up here on PH. Masterjohn despite some great info an breakdowns eats gluten, and therefore has no weight on optimal nutrition iny opinion. To each their own. Fruit is contentious on recommended quantity. The safe amount long term is Small. Not this 80/10/10 nonsense. Show me any culture that eats like this and I'll go eat a bowl of fruit. And consider changing my opinion. Plenty of humans ate fruit, no thriving culture has it as a remotely primary foodsource.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on April 13, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Once again I remember why I keep becoming more and more bias towards fruit. This morning after eating the omelet last night, I feel like I have a mild hangover compared to my usual self.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on April 13, 2011
at 08:46 PM

Hilarious so you counter his assumption with more assumptions. What about chris masterjohns blog post? Its funny when people talk as if they have authority but in reality even the top scientist don't know shit. People have always eaten fruit without detriment.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 13, 2011
at 01:41 PM

He has no science to back that opinion. Lustig admits its an assumption about fruit being safe despite all the negatives and 0 positives about fructose. It's a popularist opinion so that he isn't ignored as too far out of ordinary. Baby steps

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on April 13, 2011
at 01:19 PM

Its funny when people try to use the bitter truth against fruit but have you ever had correspondence with robert lustig to find out his views on fruit?? Probably not because I have and he thinks it perfectly fine to eat as much fruit as you care for, including 30 bananas a day. If you check out chris masterjohns blog he has a study comparing honey to starch and different markers for disease, honey is nearly identical to starch while refined sugar came out much worse

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 25, 2011
at 06:45 AM

No, not a moral vegan as far as I can tell. Just testing various eating regimes, previously paleo but now mostly fruitarian.

Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

(4400)

on January 16, 2011
at 01:05 PM

I threw in the egg as a way to get a modicum of good quality animal protein. If he's not a moral vegan, he might go that far.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:41 AM

Seb you're probably right that many people do not do well on a raw diet. I think the answer has got to be self-experimentation. People need to recognize when something is or isn't working. A lot of people seem to get into a kind of denial about their diets, continuing their diets when they're clearly failing.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

My point is, if this guy remains healthy it proves that raw vegan is not always unhealthy. It only takes one to muddy the waters a bit. And the significant thing about this one is that he has tried paleo and felt less healthy. Often, veganism comes out better compared to SAD but we always say paleo is better. Maybe it is not better for everyone. Not saying I plan to switch to raw vegan or anything. Just saying, we need to look at all cases, even those that fly in the face of assumptions.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 13, 2011
at 05:26 AM

Why should he eat an egg or two a day?

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 13, 2011
at 05:25 AM

Wait. We _know_ that people ate the paleo diet as it's described today and people thrived on it? Where is the research indicating that?!

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 13, 2011
at 05:24 AM

Eva. Sorry, what you wrote is not true based on how inductive logic works. Anecdotes my support hypotheses, but they can't prove them.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 11, 2011
at 08:24 PM

One proves nothing, outports are in Everything. Gluten has no effect on an estimated 0.4%, does that mean they prove celiacs don't have reactions? 20% of the population is lactose tolerant, doesn't make milk ok for te other 80%. the real issue here is how TEMPORARY improvement is reported, nutrient deficiencies are discovered long term... We have long term proof of paleo working, it's the only diet I know of that does...

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:58 AM

@Eva, increasing meat near eliminated soreness for me. K wouldn't be surprised if it was because a reduction in veg or other source of the issue. Elimination of a bad doesn't make what you replace it with good...

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:55 AM

Get back with us after he's done it for a decade an had new lab work... No society eats raw vegan and thrives, none in history... Paleo diet we know otherwise.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:15 AM

He is someone who experimented with a new diet. thanks for ure coment

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 10, 2011
at 06:07 AM

Nico, exactly. That is why dogma is dangerous. I feel paleo is likely healthful, but shoot me if I fall into narrowminded thinking and my opinions crystalize into immutable dogma. There is much we still don't know including the influence of epigentics.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 10, 2011
at 06:02 AM

Jbone, the thing is, if we say such a diet as his is unhealthy and will cause such and such problems, and then it does not cause such and such problems, then scientifically, we have already been proven wrong. It would only take one to poke a hole in our theories. It would only take one or a few to make us have to rethink a bit. But on the flip side, I would agree that just him alone would not be enough to really give any answers, only dig up more questions. But if there are no questions, then no better research goes forth. So my point is, we need to be ready to still ask questions.

9e7039b63b656582f66d84c5255b436d

(1132)

on January 09, 2011
at 07:29 PM

pst - his name is still in the tags. I have two older brothers (we were originally quite similar physically), one vegan, the other vegatarian, I am paleo with cheese and salt - maybe we would be good guinea pigs.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on January 09, 2011
at 06:46 AM

I do know vegans who seem extremely healthy. This is the problem: you see divergent outcomes for almost every diet.

9e2180e7bfd688eb52d4f0c536172024

(2004)

on January 09, 2011
at 03:28 AM

The book's main thrust is to refute the moral, political and health arguments of vegetarians and vegans. But she also tells the reader about her own journey. After 20 years as a vegan, health woes were part of her wake up call. She describes hypoglycemia, amenorrhea, degenerative bone disease (as a young woman), anxiety, short-term memory loss, and more. I don't agree with all her positions, and yes, her personal experience is anecdotal, but I found her to be credible and compelling. Worth borrowing from your local library.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 10:15 PM

We could go back and forth all day, but the science again and again and again shows the evils of fructose the metabolic leftovers from it's filtering is done in the human body. It's the best we can go on... AGEs prevent immortality. Best of luck to you and your fructose Matt

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 10:13 PM

Keep in mind, after I read the link, even your guys says, it doesn't prove conclusively because it's an incomplete study(again: they ALL are, and always will be) and end with the admittance:As I mentioned before, there very well may be legitimate, science-based reasons to be worried about fructose and high fructose corn syrup.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

You must be right, because 1 study isn't to you're satisfaction, even if over and over again it's shown to be the villain, it mist be innocent because the study wasn't done right. ALL STUDIES and therefore all all the opinions here are pretty damn worthless. Regardless we have witnessed people suffer nutritional deficiencies Lon term, we have absolutely ZERO cultures and ZERO lifetime frugivores to base opinion on.

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:13 PM

As much as I like to agree to the "there is more than one way", I think it has its limits and some people start following a raw food diet after seeing the good results of others and get really sick and weak on it.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:10 PM

IIRC, the 80-10-10 diet is mostly fruit with one raw greens meal per day.

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:08 PM

Some of them only eat fruit. They call themselves fruitarians.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:00 PM

Keith's book is anecdotal, which is good for hypothesis generation, but it doesn't provide the scientific rigor we'd need to answer such questions as "what a vegan diet can do to the body long-term."

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Wait, raw foodists don't eat _only_ fruit, right? I mean, aren't their diets based mostly on greens?

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:58 PM

Thank you, Matthew. Confirmation bias at work.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Nico, I think you're spot on with your post. I think there are indeed many ways to thrive.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:56 PM

If we want to be scientific, we can't look at individuals at all. There's simply no way reliable to tease apart cause and effect in as fine-grained a way as we'd like when it comes to individuals. But yeah, we should definitely avoid confirmation bias as well.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:36 PM

Might want to mention specific probs to look for. We are not all going to want to run out and buy the book right away.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:35 PM

Keep in mind this guy is exercising 3 to 4 hours per day, which will burn tons of sugar out of his system. What applies to an office worker may not apply to him.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:32 PM

Exactly why I am bringing this up. What will happen? If he is fine long term, then it means there is much we need to look at and learn from here. If not, then what probs should he be watching for?

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:30 PM

We generally suspect SAD of causing probs due to various processed foods that our body is not designed to tolerate which will slowly degrade our bodies from proper functioning, cause autoimmune reactions to develop, etc. However, this guy is not eating processed foods so I don't think we can assume similar problems. If he is going to have probs, I suspect they will be diff from SAD eater probs.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:26 PM

I am fine with the rewording. But it was not meant in a mean way. I just find it very interesting how this will spin out. I suspect he is probably similarly curious. Actually, for any diet, I often find myself wondering about potential hidden dangers. I've asked similar questions about paleo. We often talk about people getting sick trying to eat vegan longterm. But that doesn't seem to happen to everyone and I believe this guy when he said he didn't cheat. If we want to be scientific, we also need to look at all cases that don't fit our assumptions.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:21 PM

We should be cautious of uncritically accepting evidence that supports our views such as the study on fructose and cancer. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/fructose_and_pancreatic_cancer.php

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:20 PM

We should be cautious of uncritically accepting evidence that supports our views. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/fructose_and_pancreatic_cancer.php

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:50 PM

The world would be a better place if everyone had a bit more epistemic humility.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:48 PM

The world would be a better place with a bit of epistemic humility.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Heres a great read: http://beyondveg.com/cat/fruit-dreams/index.shtml a good stepping point to go learn more from, dont necc take it all at face value...

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:39 PM

should we point out that intelligent people who want to know who she is talking about can still read the tags and deduce the subject?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:38 PM

I personally believe minimal fructose allows out liver to restore its own glycogen at an improved rate, however exceeding that amount, which is near impossible to determine outside of having extensive testing done, leads me and others to simply minimize fructose as much as possible, but not sweat an awesome bowl of strawberries, or wild blackberries found while on a hike.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:36 PM

edited to improve my answer

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:36 PM

I dont know if there are fruit/honey studies directly, I think thats been requested before, however there are plenty out there showing how terrible solely fruit is for humans.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:31 PM

Hey Stephen, You got a link to any studies showing fructose causes issues in healthy people when it comes from honey or fruit? I'd be really interested. Feel better on low fruit myself and would love something to show to friends who down fruit smoothies in the name of their health. So far all research I've seen is on mice and HFCS.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2011
at 12:30 PM

actually what i have to tell. Raw vegan, drives diverent. Its partly more on small detail with big effect. there are so many different ways of being raw foodist. In first way it supports his body. maybe hell switch back to paleo one time.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 08, 2011
at 04:12 AM

guys, I'm not sure this is nice. I changed it to not be so personal. If you get his permission I will change it.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

That was what I was wondering. What things might go wrong that would not be felt consciously? One might be calcium deficiency and/or bone loss. Might take a few years for something like that to show signs but after a year or two, I would expect to see it in the teeth if there was a severe prob. But what else? The guy does seem to be maintaining good weight and performance, the latter of which seems to be his main criterion. But also interesting is the loss of soreness after workout.

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12 Answers

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8
02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on January 08, 2011
at 08:25 AM

I mean, I hear many anecdotes of many people doing great on raw vegan. It just may be possible that there are many ways to thrive. After all, the human body's still largely a mystery to us.

Can any of us really say with great confidence that this fellow is going to experience problems? C'mon, I don't think anyone really can.

I'm not interested in going raw vegan, and paleo has made my life vastly better, but it seems to me we'd all be better off with a bit of epistemic humility.

It would be interesting for people to bet on predictions in this case. Put your money where your mouth is! :-)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2011
at 12:30 PM

actually what i have to tell. Raw vegan, drives diverent. Its partly more on small detail with big effect. there are so many different ways of being raw foodist. In first way it supports his body. maybe hell switch back to paleo one time.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:32 PM

Exactly why I am bringing this up. What will happen? If he is fine long term, then it means there is much we need to look at and learn from here. If not, then what probs should he be watching for?

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:13 PM

As much as I like to agree to the "there is more than one way", I think it has its limits and some people start following a raw food diet after seeing the good results of others and get really sick and weak on it.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Nico, I think you're spot on with your post. I think there are indeed many ways to thrive.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:48 PM

The world would be a better place with a bit of epistemic humility.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:50 PM

The world would be a better place if everyone had a bit more epistemic humility.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:55 AM

Get back with us after he's done it for a decade an had new lab work... No society eats raw vegan and thrives, none in history... Paleo diet we know otherwise.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on January 15, 2011
at 12:41 AM

Seb you're probably right that many people do not do well on a raw diet. I think the answer has got to be self-experimentation. People need to recognize when something is or isn't working. A lot of people seem to get into a kind of denial about their diets, continuing their diets when they're clearly failing.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 13, 2011
at 05:25 AM

Wait. We _know_ that people ate the paleo diet as it's described today and people thrived on it? Where is the research indicating that?!

83d6a06c93bb3490dbca339cbbb63385

(526)

on December 02, 2011
at 06:34 PM

People appear to thrive on long term fasts, too. Looking too closely to the trees, food isn't necessary at all!

8
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on January 08, 2011
at 01:20 PM

We know scientifically what excess fructose does to our bodies. regardless of whether you believe minimal is best, maximal is genetic failure, our livers can't process it and by byproduct produce significant Advanced Glycation Endproducts.. AGEs

See The Bitter Truth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

We know that sugar even the fruit based sugar, is directly correlated with bad dental health.

We know that while glucose can feed cancer, only with fructose are the cancer Cells encouraged to multiply. Which with the punt of cancer that's in every single one of us every single day is what's important, preventing that multiplication.

A research team at the University of California, Los Angeles say their findings, published in the journal, Cancer Research, can now help explain other studies that have linked that form of cancer with fructose intake. Dr. Anthony Heaney of UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center and colleagues said "These findings show that cancer cells can readily metabolize fructose to increase proliferation. They have major significance for cancer patients given dietary refined fructose consumption, and indicate that efforts to reduce refined fructose intake or inhibit fructose-mediated actions may disrupt cancer growth."

We assume to know gut bacteria enough to know fructose feeds the bad ones.

We assume, and have many vitamin and mineral deficiencies that he would suffer. B12, k2, not to mention a horrible ESSENTIAL amino acid intake and a horrible ESSENTIAL fatty acid intake.

from BeyondVeg.com:

Notable Natural Hygiene practitioner at the time related specific problems seen in numerous fruitarian patients. Printed in tandem with the article series was also a separate reprint of an article by Benesh himself [Benesh 1971] that had previously been published in Herbert Shelton's Hygienic Review, detailing a few of the serious problems he had seen develop in people he had cared for who attempted a fruitarian diet--even on high-quality fruits available in season--for more than a few to several months. Benesh listed the following symptoms of people on long-term fruitarian diets that he had seen in his own Natural Hygiene practice, which we should note are not so very different from those mentioned earlier in this interview for the majority of other total-raw-foodists who experience long-term troubles:

Ridged nails, gingivitis, dental caries, dry skin and brittle hair, lowered red blood cell count and low hemoglobin percentage. Over a long period of time (at least one year or more) the blood serum level drops to a point of an impending pathological state if not corrected. Many of them display serious signs of neurological disorders, while some experience emotional upsets and extreme nervousness and often complain of insomnia. When their nutritional program is corrected these signs disappear and the patient finds himself in a much improved state of health.

Another cardinal lack that occurs quite often is a distinct lack of vitamin B-12. This lack of B-12 gives rise to the neurological signs that indicate a serious deprivation of this vital element needed to keep the nervous system operating at a so-called normal level.

People may do well at first, but this is because they are living off of past nutritional reserves, and when the stored reserves run out, the game's over. This is a theme we've probably beaten to death here, but it warrants repetition, especially with regard to fruitarian diets: It is not enough for a diet to be "clean"--it must also be a sufficient diet. Fruitarianism and near-fruitarianism are the worst possible case, because in addition to progressive long-term deficiencies, the body's insulin-production capabilities are being simultaneously overwhelmed with the high carbohydrate load in the form of higher glycemic-index foods containing simpler sugars like glucose, sucrose, and fructose.

If I have more time later, or am simply not so frustrated I may come back and explain even more reasons why this is a ridiculous diet if You know the first thing about the science That we have done in the last decade Alone.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:36 PM

I dont know if there are fruit/honey studies directly, I think thats been requested before, however there are plenty out there showing how terrible solely fruit is for humans.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:35 PM

Keep in mind this guy is exercising 3 to 4 hours per day, which will burn tons of sugar out of his system. What applies to an office worker may not apply to him.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:20 PM

We should be cautious of uncritically accepting evidence that supports our views. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/fructose_and_pancreatic_cancer.php

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:31 PM

Hey Stephen, You got a link to any studies showing fructose causes issues in healthy people when it comes from honey or fruit? I'd be really interested. Feel better on low fruit myself and would love something to show to friends who down fruit smoothies in the name of their health. So far all research I've seen is on mice and HFCS.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:58 PM

Thank you, Matthew. Confirmation bias at work.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:38 PM

I personally believe minimal fructose allows out liver to restore its own glycogen at an improved rate, however exceeding that amount, which is near impossible to determine outside of having extensive testing done, leads me and others to simply minimize fructose as much as possible, but not sweat an awesome bowl of strawberries, or wild blackberries found while on a hike.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

You must be right, because 1 study isn't to you're satisfaction, even if over and over again it's shown to be the villain, it mist be innocent because the study wasn't done right. ALL STUDIES and therefore all all the opinions here are pretty damn worthless. Regardless we have witnessed people suffer nutritional deficiencies Lon term, we have absolutely ZERO cultures and ZERO lifetime frugivores to base opinion on.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 01:36 PM

edited to improve my answer

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:21 PM

We should be cautious of uncritically accepting evidence that supports our views such as the study on fructose and cancer. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/fructose_and_pancreatic_cancer.php

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 10:13 PM

Keep in mind, after I read the link, even your guys says, it doesn't prove conclusively because it's an incomplete study(again: they ALL are, and always will be) and end with the admittance:As I mentioned before, there very well may be legitimate, science-based reasons to be worried about fructose and high fructose corn syrup.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 08, 2011
at 10:15 PM

We could go back and forth all day, but the science again and again and again shows the evils of fructose the metabolic leftovers from it's filtering is done in the human body. It's the best we can go on... AGEs prevent immortality. Best of luck to you and your fructose Matt

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on April 13, 2011
at 01:19 PM

Its funny when people try to use the bitter truth against fruit but have you ever had correspondence with robert lustig to find out his views on fruit?? Probably not because I have and he thinks it perfectly fine to eat as much fruit as you care for, including 30 bananas a day. If you check out chris masterjohns blog he has a study comparing honey to starch and different markers for disease, honey is nearly identical to starch while refined sugar came out much worse

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 13, 2011
at 01:41 PM

He has no science to back that opinion. Lustig admits its an assumption about fruit being safe despite all the negatives and 0 positives about fructose. It's a popularist opinion so that he isn't ignored as too far out of ordinary. Baby steps

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on April 13, 2011
at 08:46 PM

Hilarious so you counter his assumption with more assumptions. What about chris masterjohns blog post? Its funny when people talk as if they have authority but in reality even the top scientist don't know shit. People have always eaten fruit without detriment.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 14, 2011
at 01:10 AM

Iny = in my... .

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on April 14, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Presumably, there are fruit overconsumption studies that have been linked up here on PH. Masterjohn despite some great info an breakdowns eats gluten, and therefore has no weight on optimal nutrition iny opinion. To each their own. Fruit is contentious on recommended quantity. The safe amount long term is Small. Not this 80/10/10 nonsense. Show me any culture that eats like this and I'll go eat a bowl of fruit. And consider changing my opinion. Plenty of humans ate fruit, no thriving culture has it as a remotely primary foodsource.

6
A089b683ee0498f2b21b7edfa300e405

on January 08, 2011
at 11:07 AM

A famous eastern Mystic once said:

The mystery never ends, it cannot end. That??s why it is called a mystery, it cannot be known ever. It will never become knowledge, that??s why it is called a mystery; something in it is eternally elusive. And that??s the whole joy of life. The great splendor of life is that it keeps you eternally engaged, searching, exploring. Life is exploration, life is adventure.

5
21084e275703e9a3909dafa28e5d29b5

(1103)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:19 AM

I was just going to say that I ate the SAD (standard American diet) for 22 yeas without an issue and continued for another 7 years on prescription drugs until I found the paleo lifestyle. If you go off my parents my Dad made it to 35 before his heart attack and my Mom made it to 52 before she started having issues. The problem with diet is that you could live your whole life and not know you're slowly killing yourself or you could eat someting one time, have a severe allergic reaction and never touch it again. My brother and parents and in laws have seen the return to health for both me and my husband. They have seen me get off prescription drugs and supplements and still they don't believe.

I never knew how bad off I was until I REALLY tired paelo and now I get it. I thought I was just one of those odd balls with cronic stomach issues and illness. I bet if this guy has issues he won't see that it's his diet/what he's putting into his body, but rather an issue with himself.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:30 PM

We generally suspect SAD of causing probs due to various processed foods that our body is not designed to tolerate which will slowly degrade our bodies from proper functioning, cause autoimmune reactions to develop, etc. However, this guy is not eating processed foods so I don't think we can assume similar problems. If he is going to have probs, I suspect they will be diff from SAD eater probs.

4
Eafee106d73d49bdaec8cb3dae41d514

on January 11, 2011
at 07:53 PM

I will say that I disagree with raw fruitarianism wholeheartedly and have seen a lot of terrible things come out of it... people proud of their sunken-in eyes and skinny arms as they hold up sugary fruits thinking it's somehow healthy that they're losing muscle and shutting off their menstrual cycles.

That's just personal observation, though. It may not apply to him. I'm not judging him for trying something new, that's his business and if it works all the more power to him. Not something I would suggest or promote, though.

2
Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on April 13, 2011
at 08:30 AM

Most of this thread makes me yawn, but there's a few who are willing to think outside the box. If you're demonizing fruit right now, IMO you're doing yourself a huge disservice.

Just be honest with yourself... Do you really believe fruit is unhealthy?

I don't exercise as much as everyone thinks (I'm a lazy computer guy) but I CAN if I want to. When you eat fruit, you want to. I've recently moved to Hawaii and will be going epic on the fruit and the exercise. Fruit grows on the side of the road & rolls around on the ground here.

If given a choice, I'd eat almost nothing but fruit now. Since that's not always an option with a busy western life, I toss in other things. I had an omelet tonight because I didn't have enough fruit.

I've gone nothing but up since I left the world of high meat paleo. High meat is an ok survive diet, but not a thrive diet. 2 cents.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on April 13, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Once again I remember why I keep becoming more and more bias towards fruit. This morning after eating the omelet last night, I feel like I have a mild hangover compared to my usual self.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:49 PM

"but not a thrive diet". I'd rather do okay with muscle than thrive while looking like an anorexic. Sure you find fruit in Hawaii, but come to northern Europe and you won't be as optimistic. If I see fruits growing here, they are small and sour. Gotta admit I love sour fruits though. I always hated bananas.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:08 PM

I definitely go on fruit binges, but after 2-3 days I'm starving for an omelet or piece of fatty beef. I don't know why I need both, but I can't go either pure fruit or pure meat. The food group I tend to be a little indifferent about is vegetables but then I like broccoli and asparagus and cauliflower at times.

2
9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

on January 08, 2011
at 03:14 AM

I think that there are many other things than B12 that will potentially go wrong in the short to long term.

I'm thinking mainly of fat soluble vitamins A, K2 and probably E.

Too low of a protein intake could also be a problem.

Of course a lot of raw foodists report feeling great, some who have been doing it for years, but I think it just goes to show have flexible the body can be to different macronutrient intakes. I think, however, that in the long term things aren't so bright and people who eat only fruits freak out when they start having severe teeth problems or become emaciated.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:58 AM

@Eva, increasing meat near eliminated soreness for me. K wouldn't be surprised if it was because a reduction in veg or other source of the issue. Elimination of a bad doesn't make what you replace it with good...

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

That was what I was wondering. What things might go wrong that would not be felt consciously? One might be calcium deficiency and/or bone loss. Might take a few years for something like that to show signs but after a year or two, I would expect to see it in the teeth if there was a severe prob. But what else? The guy does seem to be maintaining good weight and performance, the latter of which seems to be his main criterion. But also interesting is the loss of soreness after workout.

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:08 PM

Some of them only eat fruit. They call themselves fruitarians.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:10 PM

IIRC, the 80-10-10 diet is mostly fruit with one raw greens meal per day.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 05:59 PM

Wait, raw foodists don't eat _only_ fruit, right? I mean, aren't their diets based mostly on greens?

1
Bee4e0fda817da9857443bd40f552a75

on October 31, 2011
at 07:43 PM

I dropped meat in my early teens and developed kwashiorkor.Protein malnutrition caused my strongly distended belly.Vegan diet was the silliest decision of my parents and the toughest years of my life. Veganism is an evolutionary mistake. Protein and Fat are as essential as oxygen. Carbs are NOT! (Fiber Menace is a must read). I suggest vegan dieters do some research on original human diet and no money will get their impaired health back on track if they go too far and decide to give this dogma a shot.

492ebe6681773ef79417d27445d441b7

(30)

on December 26, 2011
at 03:24 AM

Carbs are as fundamental to humanity as fire, cooking, and eating animals. Dear people, get off the dogma, and let your body direct. Cooked starches are fundamental to humanity going back well over a million years. And of course carb containing fruit is a fundamental in human dietary evolution and continual history for most populations.

Ed0cb30f40daff568778b776b2a5a81d

(943)

on March 07, 2013
at 06:16 PM

How did your diet look to recover from kwashiorkor?

1
492ebe6681773ef79417d27445d441b7

(30)

on April 14, 2011
at 01:31 AM

Everyone, your body gives you response indicators, such as with the quality/integrity/strength of your skin being the most likely to be the most evident indicator for most people.

Beware of cracks in the skin wherever they may occur, which indicate too much sugar/carbohydrate. So then reduce carbohydrates/sugars and increase protein and fat, especially animal sources, and the cracks should clear up. Return to health.

Dental health is another common problem.

However if you continue too long in the vegan/801010 direction contrary to your body's indications, some permanent damages can occur, such as dental decay, skin changes, body heat changes/ not keeping as warm,....etc.

1
Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

on January 11, 2011
at 05:20 PM

If our vegan friend can keep away from the grains and legumes, things might work out quite well indeed. Didn't the This Week in Paleo guy have a clip from some 100+ year old guy who ate basically nothing but fruits and veggies? Nora G suggests that keeping proten low is good for longevity. If our vegan friend could just eat fruits and veggies and stray enough to eat an egg or two a day, he might end up very well off. By the way, I think that sounds pretty paleo.

Having said all that, I still would suggest he get a glucometer and see if all this fruit is spiking is blood sugar. Some fruit is sweeter than others.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 13, 2011
at 05:26 AM

Why should he eat an egg or two a day?

Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

(4400)

on January 16, 2011
at 01:05 PM

I threw in the egg as a way to get a modicum of good quality animal protein. If he's not a moral vegan, he might go that far.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 25, 2011
at 06:45 AM

No, not a moral vegan as far as I can tell. Just testing various eating regimes, previously paleo but now mostly fruitarian.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 31, 2011
at 08:11 PM

I've been testing my blood sugar just for fun (probably not a bad idea at 64, right?) This morning, after honey/cream in my coffee then a brunch of fried duck with a grapefruit, banana, ripe pear and date with about 6 fresh cranberries I tested my glucose an hour later and it was 104. When I eat high-starch tubers, it spikes to the 140s an hour later. We're not all the same!

1
8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on January 11, 2011
at 09:59 AM

I like him, even if he is a vegan.

He's not an animal rights activist, or an anti-fat anti-meat vegan propagandist. He is someone who experimented with a new diet. Only animal rights people tend to stick with veganism long-term.

I wonder why some can help promote zero carb diets but then bash people who do raw vegan diets at the same time? Humans are omnivores. So I really don't think meat-only diets are more natural or paleo than raw vegan. I know people like the stereotypes of cavemen eating only meat, but they are no more realistic than some Edenic view of early humans eating only fruit in tropical rainforests.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 11, 2011
at 11:15 AM

He is someone who experimented with a new diet. thanks for ure coment

1
9e2180e7bfd688eb52d4f0c536172024

(2004)

on January 08, 2011
at 03:04 PM

"The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith describes in detail what a vegan diet can do to the body long-term. It wrecked her health in permanent ways. She also describes the negative cognitive effects on herself and fellow vegans she's known.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 08, 2011
at 04:36 PM

Might want to mention specific probs to look for. We are not all going to want to run out and buy the book right away.

034c678bff434ab3781e3f1771018af9

(279)

on January 08, 2011
at 06:00 PM

Keith's book is anecdotal, which is good for hypothesis generation, but it doesn't provide the scientific rigor we'd need to answer such questions as "what a vegan diet can do to the body long-term."

9e2180e7bfd688eb52d4f0c536172024

(2004)

on January 09, 2011
at 03:28 AM

The book's main thrust is to refute the moral, political and health arguments of vegetarians and vegans. But she also tells the reader about her own journey. After 20 years as a vegan, health woes were part of her wake up call. She describes hypoglycemia, amenorrhea, degenerative bone disease (as a young woman), anxiety, short-term memory loss, and more. I don't agree with all her positions, and yes, her personal experience is anecdotal, but I found her to be credible and compelling. Worth borrowing from your local library.

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on January 09, 2011
at 06:46 AM

I do know vegans who seem extremely healthy. This is the problem: you see divergent outcomes for almost every diet.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 10, 2011
at 06:07 AM

Nico, exactly. That is why dogma is dangerous. I feel paleo is likely healthful, but shoot me if I fall into narrowminded thinking and my opinions crystalize into immutable dogma. There is much we still don't know including the influence of epigentics.

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