5

votes

Protein Restriction: How Would You Sett a Sensible Upper Limit

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 16, 2011 at 6:06 AM

Is protein restriction sensible? If so, how would you implement it?

Nora Gedgaudus, while being interviewed by Nico de Haan in her "Primal Body Primal Mind" podcast on 4/29/2011 http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/blog/?page_id=1006, said you should reduce protein because "cellular cycles" might mutate your DNAs upon exposure to environmental toxins. You could then become susceptible to cancer. The specific metabolic pathway she cited is "mTor", which supposedly acts as our body's protein sensor.

Let's assume what she's saying is valid. Nora recommends multiplying your weight in kg by 0.8 to calculate the requisite protein amount. So if you weigh 200lbs. (91kg), then it's 73g. If you're 160lbs. (73kg), then 58g.

Now, these seem very low. I've checked my log and rarely if ever did I go below 100g. Then I looked at the foods with heavy protein content: if you eat redmeat, fish, pork, and eggs 2 out of 3 meals, there is no way you can stay below 100g.

At first, I thought she made sense because I assumed lots of sausages, cured meats, bacon, etc. have most of their calories in protein, not fat, to appease the general public worried about cholesterol and fat consumption. But that doesn't seem to be the case. The only way you can abide by her recommendations is caloric restriction and increasing your consumption of fatty oils like EVOO and coconut oil -- i.e., pure fats.

What do people think? I know that the Eades recommend eating roughly the amount of your lean body mass (body weight minus body fat). The Jaminets in the PHD recommend getting 200-600 calories per day from protein, equivalent to 50g-150g on a 2,000 calorie diet (but this depends on carb consumption). Nora apparently is recommending a ketogenic diet, which is not a surprise.

But even on a ketogenic diet, is restricting protein to these low levels sensible? Well, never mind sensible. Let's assume it is. How would you even implement it?

I also often hear Robb Wolf say "increase your fat" when people are constipated. It's very glib. But how would you implement this eating whole foods? What foods are there other than oils that have minimal protein?

141171c0810650168d82601d85cfa5a3

(415)

on July 01, 2012
at 01:39 PM

I'm doing the diet. It's not as hard as it might seem. I'm supposed to get about 65g of protein for my weight. Here's an example: http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1258/cronometer2012070109120.png I've actually been wondering though if we really need to restrict protein. Maybe in the context of a non-keto diet but as Ambimorph says, ketogenic diets already inhibit mTor.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 28, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Yep. When I'm hungry for meat, I eat some. When I don't feel like eating it I don't.

3bad4b0b105bf44d7650e7fdfbe15cbd

(860)

on November 28, 2011
at 11:09 PM

Interesting idea...I'm curious as to how effective it would be in practice

67f3387f0308b570c61944addedd183e

(112)

on November 27, 2011
at 12:43 AM

Have you idiots ever considered that there is no such thing as the 1 diet that even a specific band/tribe ate? Ketosis was certainly a way of life in northern Europe in winter. Was it in Summer? Probably not. We adapt, that's what omnivores do. Maybe the right answer is to eat a simple diet of local, seasonal foods. Maybe we should fatten in the summer when we can store Vit D and lean out in winter. Maybe meat and fat are the key...in the winter. Maybe fruit and veg are great in summer. Time is a variable....

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Exactly. Notice she's never specific and her interlocutor never has the temerity (or the insight, I should say) to follow up: "That's all good, Nora, but how would you implement, say, a restricted-protein/high-fat diet?" The only solution is to eat butter, tallow, EVOO. The only whole foods I can think of which you can eat are avocadoes: watch out though, if you eat more than 2 avocadoes per day, your PUFA will go over 5%, depending on how much other stuff you consume, and your fiber ration will explode. Basically, eat your broccoli fried in coconut oil or ghee, is what she's saying.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:34 PM

Btw, that's exactly what Nora believes. She also believes that humans through Paleolithic times lived on a very low carb, ketogenic type of diets. Apparently, she's never heard of tubers or what the "gatherer" when we say "hunter-gatherer."

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:28 PM

In my mind, the debate is pretty much settled. People like Nora believe that fat is the superior source of energy over glucose. She has a point once you become diabetic. But we have ample evidence that "safe starches" do not wreck metabolism: if you restrict your carb sources to such starches (which have very little sugar/fructose), then you're ok and will not become diabetic. It's one thing to be awed by the power of a low carb diet and conclude that being in ketosis is superior to burning carbs. That's a conclusion that's not supported by science, at leats I don't think so.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:32 AM

Also, what I've never understood from these mTor people with their low-protein advice is what does a meal look like? Especially for Gedgaudus who is very into low-carb on top of paleo on top of mTor. I mean, leaves with a bowl of olive oil and 2 ounces of protein?

74c2a166b7f6f13fb39af9f0f439cb38

on May 19, 2011
at 01:42 AM

But there's also muscle tissue. Some might prefer glucose and muscle over storing triglycerides.

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on May 19, 2011
at 01:21 AM

Calm down there, cliff.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:11 PM

@quilt- then why do all cultures revered for longevity eat a high(er) carb diet? Or is that just lies? @alan- Yes you do. @namby- So she should eat a nutrient devoid diet because people on the internet claim tubers and fruit are ev0l? ROb wolf allows safe starch!!! alert the presses lol. Who gives a flying fck what any of these people recommend, the real paleolithic diet that was actually eaten was never devoid of carbs except in certain unique circumstances. Feel free to look at the real data and not just some internet randoms opinion.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Alan, i think you could make a case for NEEDing carbs for certain athletic endeavor. Or at least to achieve a certain level of certain athletic activity. Someone running on no carbs, albeit super fatburning-adapted, is simply NOT going to be able to sprint as well as someone with muscles loaded with glycogen and a good amount of easily burned carbohydrate-fuel in their system. Give it a shot. I've been on both sides of the spectrum. Carbs are NEEDed to perform explosive athletic endeavors well.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Ha, her book is organized in a slapdash manner. Actually while I was reading Lights Out I kept thinking the same thing. Worse actually. I love the message, am convinced of its veracity, etc. Its just that the book is organized SO poorly I'm very reluctant to recommend it to friends and family because it comes across in such a silly manner. Sucks when the message is lost because of poor presentation. Thats why I really like Protein Power and Wolf's book.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:57 PM

great point. I was VLC for about one whole year but i ate a lot of protein. I was nowhere near 60% or higher fat-intake as many refer to. In retrospect I don't think I was in ketosis much of that time - because I think my body got pretty darn good at gluconeogenesis and a lot of that protein was turned into glucose. I might as well as have been eating the higher-carbohydrate style that I currently am.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:19 PM

You don't NEED carbs for anything...

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Like today, I ate only 2,100 calories and it was about 75% fat, 15% protein and 10% carbs. I'm full and cannot eat more, whether it's cheesecake or Doritos or another grass-fed steak. But if I overcame all this and ate more of the same (75-15-10), I will gain weight, I guarantee you.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:52 AM

But if you whet your appetite w/starches in between your low-carb meals, you can eat more and gain weight. Well, perhaps that's not what Taubes is saying, becuz he means keeping your insulin low. Try to eat to satiety when your BG and insulin hardly budge. You have a low-carb diet. Yes, in practice you can't really gain lots of weight on a VLC diet. But you can in theory if you eat until you become sick. Just becuz you won't eat until your stomach lining bursts doesn't mean it's not possible.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:47 AM

I've not read Taubes in full, but I'm familiar enough with him. When he says calories don't matter, he's being metaphorical and is trying to shift the public debate from calories to macronutrients. Yes, ultimately, calories do matter if you gorge yourself with ungodly protein and fat. I've tested myself and I can eat upto 3,300 cals and not gain weight. (Have to do moderate, not low, carb, however.) Beyond that, you'll put on weight: it's the metabolic advantage. It's nearly impossible to do it on protein/fat because satiety will give way to sickness.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:23 PM

When I say studies discussed in the book about high carb/low fat/calorie counting, I meant 'why we get fat (and what to do about it)'. Sorry for the lack of detail...

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:22 PM

So @Namby Pamby...go read 'why we get fat', 'the paleo solution', listen to some of Robb Wolf's stuff, look at Eat stop eat and leangains, and decide for yourself. I like facts, data, and n=1. Do you follow this? Do you like it? Can you live with the research? I looked at what everyone's been saying about Gedgaudus online and other stuff, and I can vehemently disagree with the type of diet she's pushing. I know that I can't lift heavy, look good, or feel good with that type of diet. Can you?

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:19 PM

I believe that the proper diet is one that has adequate protein (not this amount that Gedgaudus is talking about) of AT LEAST 1g per pound of lean body mass (if not higher, to a point of 1g per pound of mass), plenty of fat, and some carbs. I'm not a carb hater, I just think that it's smarter to get them from sweet potatoes, fruit and veggies. I also think that eating to satiety is better than restricting calories, because really, who can long term count and restrict calories? I'd rather just do a fast once in a while (eat stop eat style)...it's just as good for longevity.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:15 PM

Oh, and we aren't mice. People can lose weight on calorie restrictive diets, but for the most part people go into starvation mode and lose performance, health, and it's hard to maintain. If you look at some of the studies discussed in the book, a high carb diet with calorie counting (smaller meal sizes and such) led to the people not being able to follow it, or going crazy.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:14 PM

I know that in reading good calories/bad calories and why you get fat (and what to do about it) that Taubes thinks that it's excessive consumption of carbs that causes obesity through high insulin levels. He also debunks the calories in/out hypothesis because hormones control weight loss/gain instead of just the laws of thermodynamics.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 16, 2011
at 07:07 PM

Really, Taubes doesn't believe in calorie restriction? How does he think all the mice are living longer when their calories are restricted? All of them suddenly got their telomeres extended somehow?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:41 PM

You need carbs for performance only.....not longevity

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:40 PM

Her point was about xenoestrogens in meat.....that get metabolize by phase 1 and 2 reactions in the liver.....E1and E2 are the only ones you need to worry about.....you can control this easy.....by buying grass fed meat and forcing your liver metabolism the correct way......by upping your green tea curcumin methyl transfer system. Choline Mg Se and B6 are also helpful. If you know how to avoid it you can't get it. Our biochemistry and physiology for estrogen clearance is well known. Protein does not kill.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:35 PM

Groves and Rossdale prescribe similar lower protein/low carb/high fat intakes. I'm giving this idea some consideration right now. Unfortunately for me protein brings much better satiety than fat so I'm not sure I can make this work but am going it a try. Might just end up protein cycling.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 16, 2011
at 02:16 PM

That's not what Nora wants. She wants you to limit both protein and carbs. Robb Wolf has come around and will allow safe starches to boost your carbs. But when they both urge you to increase the fat, what they seem to be saying is take coconut oil, butter, beef tallow, maybe some avocadoes, but not whole foods. But maybe they just haven't thought through their recommendations.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 16, 2011
at 02:00 PM

Gedgaudus's book was one of the very first paleo books i read when it first came out. I then listened all the podcasts she had, etc. She's intelligent and fun to listen to. One thing i've learned from pretty exhaustively reading her is that most of what she advises about eating is based on longevity and longterm health. This is not mutually exclusive with athletic performance I know. But, im just saying that she's not working with athletes, etc. Those guys, or even you and me who might lift heavy, would most likely NOT perform or gain strength well with the small amounts of protein she recs.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:58 PM

I'd agree on using 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight. I know Wolf mentions that a lot but that is old school knowledge that lifters of both the power and body building side of things have long touted. Good, easy to remember, easy to follow advice. Start with that protein number, maybe go equal amounts carb and then fill in the rest of your cals with fat. One option.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:36 PM

Cancer is a energy malfunction it has nothing to do with carbs, fat or protien.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:00 PM

Bad advice was spread in that podcast......not worth your time but you should educate yourself first before you do a thing. Think before action

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 12:59 PM

Protein does not cause cancer.......

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8 Answers

4
Dd83f8f6384f8df4a2975f3adee7d65e

on November 28, 2011
at 11:03 PM

A good way of implementing protein restriction is probably a protein cycling diet, eat low protein one day and eat more on alternate days.

We know from Calorie Restriction and Alternate day fasting, that alternate day fasting while keeping calories the same as caloric restriction extends lifespan in animals(That is basically eat slightly more than normal one day and nothing on alternate days yields benefits. ).

Doing the same but limiting only proteins on alternate days should probably provide the benefits of protein restriction.

A good way to get calories would be macadamia nuts, which are the highest source of monounsaturated fat. Very pure Dark chocolate also is very low on protein. Add some high fiber vegetables, and keep calories low and you could probably achieve 20-25~g of protein on alternate days. You could then get 75-100g protein on a high calorie diet the next day and the overall average would be 50-62.5g.

3bad4b0b105bf44d7650e7fdfbe15cbd

(860)

on November 28, 2011
at 11:09 PM

Interesting idea...I'm curious as to how effective it would be in practice

2
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 19, 2011
at 12:33 AM

A ketogenic diet demonstrably inhibits mTor, and promotes autophagy, which can reduce cancer risk and other ageing processes. I can find evidence that protein restriction, especially methionine restriction, can reduce mitochondrial ROS damage, but not direct evidence that it affects mTor. (Any primary source leads appreciated). Chronic protein restriction leads to a variety of health problems. I consider it a dangerous red herring.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:32 AM

Also, what I've never understood from these mTor people with their low-protein advice is what does a meal look like? Especially for Gedgaudus who is very into low-carb on top of paleo on top of mTor. I mean, leaves with a bowl of olive oil and 2 ounces of protein?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Exactly. Notice she's never specific and her interlocutor never has the temerity (or the insight, I should say) to follow up: "That's all good, Nora, but how would you implement, say, a restricted-protein/high-fat diet?" The only solution is to eat butter, tallow, EVOO. The only whole foods I can think of which you can eat are avocadoes: watch out though, if you eat more than 2 avocadoes per day, your PUFA will go over 5%, depending on how much other stuff you consume, and your fiber ration will explode. Basically, eat your broccoli fried in coconut oil or ghee, is what she's saying.

141171c0810650168d82601d85cfa5a3

(415)

on July 01, 2012
at 01:39 PM

I'm doing the diet. It's not as hard as it might seem. I'm supposed to get about 65g of protein for my weight. Here's an example: http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1258/cronometer2012070109120.png I've actually been wondering though if we really need to restrict protein. Maybe in the context of a non-keto diet but as Ambimorph says, ketogenic diets already inhibit mTor.

2
F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:15 AM

Well, the whole thing about 'excessive protein causes cancer' bugs me. I've done enough reading to see that protein is the least of my issues. It's more grains + sugar = cancer in my mind.

I like what Robb Wolf recommends in his podcasts when talking about amount of protein. 1g per pound of bodyweight. So if you weight 200 lbs you need to eat 200 grams of protein.

From what I understand, this recommendation comes from Poliquin and his biosignature stuff. I've heard Wolf keep on recommending it in multiple podcasts, and talk about his high level of success, even in obese people. The goal is to fix any deficiencies the body has, get the metabolic process started properly, and modify from there.

Getting back on track, if (not that I agree) I had to implement something that you're suggesting, it'd have to be a higher carb/fat ratio. I'd eat a ton of pastured lard, butter, heavy whipping cream, coconut oil, and avocados.

I would rather eat a ton of protein + fat + carbs to satiety. I don't bother with calorie restriction, I think the whole idea is ridiculous after reading Taube's work. As far as her suggested diet of low protein, I know that a low protein/low carb diet would also make me want to commit suicide. I love fat, but I'm in the midst of fixing some metabolic issues, and I know that I don't do low carb well, and I need a higher level of protein for satiety.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 12:59 PM

Protein does not cause cancer.......

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:22 PM

So @Namby Pamby...go read 'why we get fat', 'the paleo solution', listen to some of Robb Wolf's stuff, look at Eat stop eat and leangains, and decide for yourself. I like facts, data, and n=1. Do you follow this? Do you like it? Can you live with the research? I looked at what everyone's been saying about Gedgaudus online and other stuff, and I can vehemently disagree with the type of diet she's pushing. I know that I can't lift heavy, look good, or feel good with that type of diet. Can you?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:58 PM

I'd agree on using 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight. I know Wolf mentions that a lot but that is old school knowledge that lifters of both the power and body building side of things have long touted. Good, easy to remember, easy to follow advice. Start with that protein number, maybe go equal amounts carb and then fill in the rest of your cals with fat. One option.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 16, 2011
at 07:07 PM

Really, Taubes doesn't believe in calorie restriction? How does he think all the mice are living longer when their calories are restricted? All of them suddenly got their telomeres extended somehow?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Like today, I ate only 2,100 calories and it was about 75% fat, 15% protein and 10% carbs. I'm full and cannot eat more, whether it's cheesecake or Doritos or another grass-fed steak. But if I overcame all this and ate more of the same (75-15-10), I will gain weight, I guarantee you.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:47 AM

I've not read Taubes in full, but I'm familiar enough with him. When he says calories don't matter, he's being metaphorical and is trying to shift the public debate from calories to macronutrients. Yes, ultimately, calories do matter if you gorge yourself with ungodly protein and fat. I've tested myself and I can eat upto 3,300 cals and not gain weight. (Have to do moderate, not low, carb, however.) Beyond that, you'll put on weight: it's the metabolic advantage. It's nearly impossible to do it on protein/fat because satiety will give way to sickness.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:19 PM

I believe that the proper diet is one that has adequate protein (not this amount that Gedgaudus is talking about) of AT LEAST 1g per pound of lean body mass (if not higher, to a point of 1g per pound of mass), plenty of fat, and some carbs. I'm not a carb hater, I just think that it's smarter to get them from sweet potatoes, fruit and veggies. I also think that eating to satiety is better than restricting calories, because really, who can long term count and restrict calories? I'd rather just do a fast once in a while (eat stop eat style)...it's just as good for longevity.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:14 PM

I know that in reading good calories/bad calories and why you get fat (and what to do about it) that Taubes thinks that it's excessive consumption of carbs that causes obesity through high insulin levels. He also debunks the calories in/out hypothesis because hormones control weight loss/gain instead of just the laws of thermodynamics.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 17, 2011
at 12:52 AM

But if you whet your appetite w/starches in between your low-carb meals, you can eat more and gain weight. Well, perhaps that's not what Taubes is saying, becuz he means keeping your insulin low. Try to eat to satiety when your BG and insulin hardly budge. You have a low-carb diet. Yes, in practice you can't really gain lots of weight on a VLC diet. But you can in theory if you eat until you become sick. Just becuz you won't eat until your stomach lining bursts doesn't mean it's not possible.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:36 PM

Cancer is a energy malfunction it has nothing to do with carbs, fat or protien.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:15 PM

Oh, and we aren't mice. People can lose weight on calorie restrictive diets, but for the most part people go into starvation mode and lose performance, health, and it's hard to maintain. If you look at some of the studies discussed in the book, a high carb diet with calorie counting (smaller meal sizes and such) led to the people not being able to follow it, or going crazy.

F6ea948ab43dc51d72509c0989e670fe

(1639)

on May 16, 2011
at 08:23 PM

When I say studies discussed in the book about high carb/low fat/calorie counting, I meant 'why we get fat (and what to do about it)'. Sorry for the lack of detail...

1
74c2a166b7f6f13fb39af9f0f439cb38

on May 19, 2011
at 01:54 AM

Sensible for me would be: as much as I want.

These arguments for protein restriction are still speculative for humans. Where are the long term studies on humans? There isn't any more research supporting protein restriction for extending lifespan in humans than there is over calorie restriction. So we don't really know an answer to how effective protein restriction will be. What we can determine is what diet is actually effective in controlling body fat/weight, improves our health parameters over the short-term (HDL/LDL, hormones), and helps exercise performance. If a high-protein diet is what does it for you, then so be it.

Someone else with a new book and methodology to sell, what's new...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 28, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Yep. When I'm hungry for meat, I eat some. When I don't feel like eating it I don't.

1
5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:26 PM

I wouldn't recommend too high a protein diet simply because surplus protein/ amino acids are very easily and quickly turned into glucose, GNG. Wasteful IMO.

74c2a166b7f6f13fb39af9f0f439cb38

on May 19, 2011
at 01:42 AM

But there's also muscle tissue. Some might prefer glucose and muscle over storing triglycerides.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:57 PM

great point. I was VLC for about one whole year but i ate a lot of protein. I was nowhere near 60% or higher fat-intake as many refer to. In retrospect I don't think I was in ketosis much of that time - because I think my body got pretty darn good at gluconeogenesis and a lot of that protein was turned into glucose. I might as well as have been eating the higher-carbohydrate style that I currently am.

0
Medium avatar

on May 16, 2011
at 11:49 PM

I bought her book, and aside from it being organized/edited in the most ADD manner that I have ever seen, I really find myself disagreeing with her main premises. One could argue that VLC is in stark contrast with our evolutionary history, but even if you allow for that, then you end up with a meat-heavy diet obviously. You can't then say that we're not supposed to eat meat. Who are these Pleistocene hunters who are killing massive numbers of animals, eating only the fat and discarding the rest? I've never seen a shred of evidence pointing to that.

Digestion of a particular thing may result in relatively toxic byproducts that must be excreted, but that doesn't then mean that that particular thing must be avoided. Paul Jaminet has a far more rational approach to protein consumption limits: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=2712

I guess I'd be less offended if she weren't putting forth her theories under the guise of paleo/primal since it's very clearly unhinged from it.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Ha, her book is organized in a slapdash manner. Actually while I was reading Lights Out I kept thinking the same thing. Worse actually. I love the message, am convinced of its veracity, etc. Its just that the book is organized SO poorly I'm very reluctant to recommend it to friends and family because it comes across in such a silly manner. Sucks when the message is lost because of poor presentation. Thats why I really like Protein Power and Wolf's book.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:13 PM

How much can/should be consumed (1)per time, (2) per day that can be assimilated/digested for optimal performance? ie. what are the limits? I asked this question yesterday and noone answered?!

0
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on May 16, 2011
at 01:36 PM

Eat more carbs? problem solved

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on May 17, 2011
at 01:19 PM

You don't NEED carbs for anything...

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 16, 2011
at 02:16 PM

That's not what Nora wants. She wants you to limit both protein and carbs. Robb Wolf has come around and will allow safe starches to boost your carbs. But when they both urge you to increase the fat, what they seem to be saying is take coconut oil, butter, beef tallow, maybe some avocadoes, but not whole foods. But maybe they just haven't thought through their recommendations.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:41 PM

You need carbs for performance only.....not longevity

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:11 PM

@quilt- then why do all cultures revered for longevity eat a high(er) carb diet? Or is that just lies? @alan- Yes you do. @namby- So she should eat a nutrient devoid diet because people on the internet claim tubers and fruit are ev0l? ROb wolf allows safe starch!!! alert the presses lol. Who gives a flying fck what any of these people recommend, the real paleolithic diet that was actually eaten was never devoid of carbs except in certain unique circumstances. Feel free to look at the real data and not just some internet randoms opinion.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 16, 2011
at 06:35 PM

Groves and Rossdale prescribe similar lower protein/low carb/high fat intakes. I'm giving this idea some consideration right now. Unfortunately for me protein brings much better satiety than fat so I'm not sure I can make this work but am going it a try. Might just end up protein cycling.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 17, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Alan, i think you could make a case for NEEDing carbs for certain athletic endeavor. Or at least to achieve a certain level of certain athletic activity. Someone running on no carbs, albeit super fatburning-adapted, is simply NOT going to be able to sprint as well as someone with muscles loaded with glycogen and a good amount of easily burned carbohydrate-fuel in their system. Give it a shot. I've been on both sides of the spectrum. Carbs are NEEDed to perform explosive athletic endeavors well.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:34 PM

Btw, that's exactly what Nora believes. She also believes that humans through Paleolithic times lived on a very low carb, ketogenic type of diets. Apparently, she's never heard of tubers or what the "gatherer" when we say "hunter-gatherer."

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on May 19, 2011
at 01:21 AM

Calm down there, cliff.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on May 19, 2011
at 02:28 PM

In my mind, the debate is pretty much settled. People like Nora believe that fat is the superior source of energy over glucose. She has a point once you become diabetic. But we have ample evidence that "safe starches" do not wreck metabolism: if you restrict your carb sources to such starches (which have very little sugar/fructose), then you're ok and will not become diabetic. It's one thing to be awed by the power of a low carb diet and conclude that being in ketosis is superior to burning carbs. That's a conclusion that's not supported by science, at leats I don't think so.

67f3387f0308b570c61944addedd183e

(112)

on November 27, 2011
at 12:43 AM

Have you idiots ever considered that there is no such thing as the 1 diet that even a specific band/tribe ate? Ketosis was certainly a way of life in northern Europe in winter. Was it in Summer? Probably not. We adapt, that's what omnivores do. Maybe the right answer is to eat a simple diet of local, seasonal foods. Maybe we should fatten in the summer when we can store Vit D and lean out in winter. Maybe meat and fat are the key...in the winter. Maybe fruit and veg are great in summer. Time is a variable....

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