6

votes

Muscle meat and hormonal influence

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 14, 2011 at 10:09 PM

I was recently refered to Peat's article about gelatin and the aminos it contains that are so salubrious, etc. I wonder...if one were to consume mainly skin/collagen/gelatin in place of muscle meat if this would be preferable health-wsie? My concern is protein quality, ie.Bioavailability of protein and the relative quality between muscle meat and gelatin. Also organ meat and its quality has been a topic plaguing my mind as late that I haven't found an adequate answer to through any source on the net. Would some kind soul care to advise whether a "mainly gelatin" diet would be a good gamble. I am concerned with protein quality especially. Having only organ meats and skin/collagen seems like a better idea nutrient-wise than muscle meat...but I just don't know...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2011
at 01:51 PM

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking mainly in terms of supplementing with gelatin(such as animal skin/collagen) in tandem with meat, eg. having 1-2 oz. of gelatin with 3x the amount in meat, to create a ratio of gelatin:meat of, say, 1:4 or something of that sort. I had experimented with pig's feet but found them way too high in PUFAs. So I am now looking for alternative sources other than powdered gelatin(mainly derived from animals that I can sever off and store as a 'gelatin source'). Any ideas?

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:07 AM

usually a person wouldnt cook the bones twice but its possible and limits waste.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:05 AM

if you already stripped the bones of marrow you may not get a gel. go for 72 hours on a simmer to get a dark stock, then drain and separate any meat parts left over. let the stock cool and any fat will rise to the surface, that is your gel. also after separating you can return it to the cauldron and reduce the stock until its thicker.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:03 AM

double the liver of what... 6 oz a day? i would say maybe, but it depends on your activity level and the other things youre eating doing. you know the whole vit A needs vit D thing. i mean, look up the symptoms and try it out, see what happens. maybe even get tested first and then after 30 days. i would also say cycle it, eat 6 days then take 1 day off, and then take 1 week off every 4 weeks.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:17 PM

Would double the liver predispose me to hypervitaminosis-A? With regard to bone stocks: I have in the oven now a gamut of soup bones from cow limbs(whatever they are called)and have been keepng them in a 'cauldroon'for lack of a better term for approx. 24 hours. There is also a deal of fat/sinew on the bones( I had previously cooked them and stripped them of meat and marrow). Is this the right way to cook "bone stock" or whatever it may be called? I am looking to make a sort of jello if possible...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:14 PM

I should have stated 'muscle catabolism' which I understand to be enhanced with calcium(as it increases muscle metabolism). Do you know if bone marrow has calcium and in what amount?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:32 PM

+1 Princess Bride references.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:31 PM

+1 Princess Bridge references.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:23 PM

Do pork rinds count as skin?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:22 PM

Okay, wait... Is that sarcasm or irony? "If she weighs the same as a duck, she's made out of wood, and therefore... A Witch!!!"

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on April 15, 2011
at 03:51 PM

unbelievable...

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:06 AM

given your attention to diet and exercise, you hardly appear to be a candidate for sarcopenia, perhaps you are wrong

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 15, 2011
at 06:23 AM

i eat about 3 oz of raw grassfed beef liver a day. i treat it as a multivitamin. don't eat enough bone stocks though... knuckle is the best imo.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 01:43 AM

no comment. .

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Which part of the animal: nose...tail? Sometimes resources are scarce and one would like to know the causes of things anyway(eg. amino acid composition of various animal parts that are ideally suited to human diet).

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:23 AM

yeah i got that nuance of your question. what i meant is that a balance IS optimal, and fortunately the animal comes nicely balanced already, and also you can pretty much hedge your bets eating that way.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:10 AM

Thanks for the feedback(links would be perfect). I'm thinking organ meat might substitute for muscle but...I have been practicing including pig skin and gelatin from marrow bones(some of which I currently have an the oven making a broth). On an unrelated note: you wouldn't happen to know the calcium content(if any) of bone marrow would you? Every time I consume it I get an odd response...sarcopenia and heightened metabolic rate which I attribute to calcium. Perhaps I am wrong?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:06 AM

I've ordered 30 lbs of pigs feet, 25 lbs. of beef liver and 25 lbs. of beef kidney...we shall see.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:06 AM

Perfect, I will investigate.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:05 AM

It is a question of whatis OPTIMAL. Also, if there are drawbacks to one(eg.muscle meat--according to PEAT) then it might be advisable to have the other varieties...

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6 Answers

6
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on April 15, 2011
at 03:56 PM

I was really wondering the same thing. The only aspect of Peat's article is that the gelatin comes from moose hooves, and as every knows, moose hooves are magnetic, which could affect left brain functionality. And as everyone knows, Australia is made up entirely of criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not drink the beef juice in front of me.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:31 PM

+1 Princess Bridge references.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:32 PM

+1 Princess Bride references.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 15, 2011
at 05:22 PM

Okay, wait... Is that sarcasm or irony? "If she weighs the same as a duck, she's made out of wood, and therefore... A Witch!!!"

5
Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 14, 2011
at 11:05 PM

i don't understand why you just can't eat all three. nose to tail. That's the way nature packaged the animal.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Which part of the animal: nose...tail? Sometimes resources are scarce and one would like to know the causes of things anyway(eg. amino acid composition of various animal parts that are ideally suited to human diet).

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on April 15, 2011
at 03:51 PM

unbelievable...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:05 AM

It is a question of whatis OPTIMAL. Also, if there are drawbacks to one(eg.muscle meat--according to PEAT) then it might be advisable to have the other varieties...

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:23 AM

yeah i got that nuance of your question. what i meant is that a balance IS optimal, and fortunately the animal comes nicely balanced already, and also you can pretty much hedge your bets eating that way.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 15, 2011
at 01:43 AM

no comment. .

2
B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

on April 14, 2011
at 11:57 PM

My actual take-away from Peat's article was that gelatin needed to be reintroduced to work together with the muscle meats and organs we consume.

that way we are consuming a better balance of aminos and other components of animals to better serve us for the complete repairs of our body.

There were historical studies done that were checking if the poor could just be fed on gelatin for protein, and their health suffered because it was unbalanced in the other direction. (Muscle meats vs. Connective tissues.)

Links to the studies. They are at the bottom of this link... http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/513-why-broth-is-beautiful.html

Gelatin first began to fall out of favor in the 19th century when scientists demonstrated that a diet of bread and gelatin alone could not support life.30 The obvious conclusion--that gelatin is not a replacement for meat or other dietary protein--hardly means that it has no place at all in our diets. On the contrary, a substantial body of evidence exists suggesting that gelatin should have a very big place.

I plan to make bone broth more often, and start making interesting dishes with beef gelatin to balance out my amino profile. I will condinue to eat the best muscle meats I can afford. These two major components together should really boost my health and exercise recovery.

And mmmmmm, coconut milk panna cotta is on my mind.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:06 AM

given your attention to diet and exercise, you hardly appear to be a candidate for sarcopenia, perhaps you are wrong

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:10 AM

Thanks for the feedback(links would be perfect). I'm thinking organ meat might substitute for muscle but...I have been practicing including pig skin and gelatin from marrow bones(some of which I currently have an the oven making a broth). On an unrelated note: you wouldn't happen to know the calcium content(if any) of bone marrow would you? Every time I consume it I get an odd response...sarcopenia and heightened metabolic rate which I attribute to calcium. Perhaps I am wrong?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:14 PM

I should have stated 'muscle catabolism' which I understand to be enhanced with calcium(as it increases muscle metabolism). Do you know if bone marrow has calcium and in what amount?

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 14, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Eating more organ meat might be a better choice. I don't know either. Keep in mind that Ray Peat in defiance of mainstream medicine holds that serotonin should be lowered, not raised. You can google his site for articles he's written on this subject. That's one of the main reasons he argues for eating more gelatin. I don't know what to make of this argument, but it's worth investigating. If you have any questions, he has on his site a means for sending him questions. He may take a couple of days to get back to you, but he usually does get back to people, in my experience.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:06 AM

Perfect, I will investigate.

0
25174d87ded225e3633e08a68f937319

on May 18, 2011
at 05:58 AM

gelatin is higher in much higher in arginine than lysine and thus could predispose someone to viral problems, as arginine feeds certain viruses and lysine fights them. This is one of the reasons I think so many people who develop chronic fatigue syndrome and struggle with constant viral problems from EBV, etc. often note that they feel worse eating a vegetarian diet and feel better eating a paleo diet because like gelatin, vegetable protein sources are high in arginine. So I would definitely recommend not to rely solely on gelatin. Gelatin is supposed to be protein sparing but should not be the major protein source.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2011
at 01:51 PM

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking mainly in terms of supplementing with gelatin(such as animal skin/collagen) in tandem with meat, eg. having 1-2 oz. of gelatin with 3x the amount in meat, to create a ratio of gelatin:meat of, say, 1:4 or something of that sort. I had experimented with pig's feet but found them way too high in PUFAs. So I am now looking for alternative sources other than powdered gelatin(mainly derived from animals that I can sever off and store as a 'gelatin source'). Any ideas?

0
05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 14, 2011
at 10:53 PM

why dont you try it for at least 30 days and find out?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 12:06 AM

I've ordered 30 lbs of pigs feet, 25 lbs. of beef liver and 25 lbs. of beef kidney...we shall see.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 15, 2011
at 06:23 AM

i eat about 3 oz of raw grassfed beef liver a day. i treat it as a multivitamin. don't eat enough bone stocks though... knuckle is the best imo.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 15, 2011
at 09:17 PM

Would double the liver predispose me to hypervitaminosis-A? With regard to bone stocks: I have in the oven now a gamut of soup bones from cow limbs(whatever they are called)and have been keepng them in a 'cauldroon'for lack of a better term for approx. 24 hours. There is also a deal of fat/sinew on the bones( I had previously cooked them and stripped them of meat and marrow). Is this the right way to cook "bone stock" or whatever it may be called? I am looking to make a sort of jello if possible...

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:03 AM

double the liver of what... 6 oz a day? i would say maybe, but it depends on your activity level and the other things youre eating doing. you know the whole vit A needs vit D thing. i mean, look up the symptoms and try it out, see what happens. maybe even get tested first and then after 30 days. i would also say cycle it, eat 6 days then take 1 day off, and then take 1 week off every 4 weeks.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:07 AM

usually a person wouldnt cook the bones twice but its possible and limits waste.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 16, 2011
at 01:05 AM

if you already stripped the bones of marrow you may not get a gel. go for 72 hours on a simmer to get a dark stock, then drain and separate any meat parts left over. let the stock cool and any fat will rise to the surface, that is your gel. also after separating you can return it to the cauldron and reduce the stock until its thicker.

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