2

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How Do You Get Enough Protein Per Day W/Out Supplements?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 13, 2010 at 6:59 AM

Been trying to eat Paleo but after tracking my food realized that I was eating alot of goats milk, yogurt and a ton of whey protein daily. I want to drop all of these to see how I feel and today was my first attempt at it. I ate 1 pound of chicken (Foster Farms 22g/4oz), 1/2 pound of 80/20 ground beef (trader joes 19g/4oz) and 6 eggs (6 g/egg) yet according to the labels I only reached 172 grams of protein (including other food). I am aiming for 200 as I want to eat 1 gram of protein per body weight as I am currently on a strength program. I also ate a ton of coconut milk today so maybe I need to back off of that to leave more room for nuts/meat/or eggs?

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

You can wear a muscle out by going super slow, or doing 100 reps, but that generally won't stimulate myofibrillar hypertrophy; and it definitely won't recruit the fast-twitch fibers that essential to building strength. Yes, you can hear 100 different big guys telling you how to train; but I would venture that with rare exceptions, all of them do compound barbell lifts with heavy weights. The problem with looking only at clinical studies is that they are also contradictory and often poorly designed, generally using novices, who will respond to almost any protocol. Books, yes; biceps too!

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on August 08, 2010
at 05:44 PM

How is it no one here has linked a picture of their "muscles" with all this bravado?

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 17, 2010
at 02:02 PM

We usually post a comment on someone's reply when we are slamming it, rather than a new reply, but you probably didn't realize that. No big deal. Anyway, I don't agree with you, although it depends what you mean by "significant load." I see super-slow as endurance training, like 100 reps with a very light load. Neither recruits the explosive power fibers. Or do you think that distance runners have great explosive strength because their II-B get recruited and hypertropied whever the aerobic fibers get fatigued? In any event... we've all sort of moved on from this. Welcome the board!

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 15, 2010
at 01:45 PM

Thanks Ryan. Keep at it; you'll be pulling 4 plates in no time! David, I see your point (and again, sorry if I came a little strong). You are right that people get results with all kinds of programs--even Body By Science--especially novices. But while there are always exceptions, most people will only see consistent long-term gains with regular use of heavy loads (esp. the big compound lifts that Ryan mentioned) several times a week. Most people who don't make gains aren't lifting with enough intensity. That's my problem with Dr. McGuff: he confuses fatigue with intensity. -more below

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:53 PM

Melissa, Robb Wolf in his podcasts addresses Vegan bodybuilding. He basically says that he is not against someone being vegan but that he does not do it for his clients because everytime one was vegan he noticed "failure to thrive," i.e they couldnt progress as they should be. He notes that there are some impressive vegan athletes but that they are definitely the exception not the norm. Also for a bodybuilder to be Vegan they must eat vegan foods that have been modified to be more protein dense.

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:48 PM

Glenn, those are some impressive lifts, congrats! I was 6'2 170 my whole life and couldnt put weight on for the life of me, even with weight lifting. Last year at 29 yrs old I started doing more compound lifts like you described and I jumped to 194lbs within 6 months. My deadlift went from a meager 100 or so lbs to I just did 315 for 5 reps last week. Would love to get to that 400 number. I have super small bones naturally so it feels great to get some mass on. I can see why others thought you came across a bit strong but I also understand where youre coming from. Results do speak

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 08:16 PM

Some of my vegan friends regularly point me to sites like http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ Don't know what to say about this sort of thing. Perhaps it shows that protein is king and if you want to build muscle using hemp protein powder, you definitely can.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:06 PM

Hi Glenn, it's not about 'people who know about HG diets' vs people who know about hypertrophy. It's about the evidence. I'm not dismissing you, I'm dismissing the argument from authority. If you have suggestions I'd love to hear them, but I'm not interested in simply being told [the regime of a muscular person], since I've got hundreds, with wild contradictions aplenty. Cases of people who train with 1 regime, switch and notice significant improvements would be interesting ('results'); but most people I know get similar results with differing routines, whereas individuals differ massively.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 03:43 PM

The only point is that arguments and evidence, rather than appeals to authority are what counts. And if you are going to make appeals to authority, at least appeal to academic authority rather than bicep-authority... I think it's important to note that those in the muscle-mass-is-largely-genetic camp, don't argue that workouts don't get results; working out will make you stronger, leaner, more defined and healthier, it might just not increase bulk (which evolutionarily wouldn't necessarily be advantageous).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 03:26 PM

Dude, Glenn, you don't have to put others down to build validity. Maybe your hulking muscles are pumping excess testosterone into your blood or something, but let's be nice :)

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 14, 2010
at 12:19 PM

I see. So the more out of shape you are, and the less effective your workouts are, the more of an expert you are on building muscle. Of course! That explains everyone's obeisance to Dr. McGuff. I used to drink and smoke heavily and was a bean-pole; and only took up weight-training in my late thirties--about five years ago. Last year, at a powerlifting meet I deadlifted 435 lbs and squatted 375 lbs (at a bodyweight of 198, & 43 years old). But I'll refrain from commenting on this topic any further and leave the advice to people who don't workout, or don't any results from their workouts.

D15d6820ef1545edac65e975cc2d8949

on March 14, 2010
at 08:29 AM

Advice is often given from people who achieve results *despite* whatever exercise/eating regimen they're on, not *thanks to*. Regarding insulin, well, unless you're a pig, the only anabolic action it does is for your adipose tissue...

D15d6820ef1545edac65e975cc2d8949

on March 14, 2010
at 08:27 AM

(also, you'll get 5g of creatine in 1 kg of red meat, so you don't really have to supplement with it if you absolutely don't want to)

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 05:36 AM

People with muscles keep offering advice: normally lean chicken breasts every 2hours, lots of milk (esp. before bed), knocking back oats for the carb and saying that whey is esp. good because of how much insulin it produces. ;) You could just say- that'll make you muscular, but unhealthy- but I also know a tonne of people who are naturally large but never workout. Of my closest friends 2, including myself, (still) have slight builds and have trained every week for about 5 years (various programs), the 2 others are (and were) v. muscular despite lifting less than once a month.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 04:55 AM

I would trade the coconut milk for fish if you really want to get more protein, but I personally know several muscled people (one Erwan Le Corre for example) who don't eat massive amounts of protein

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 14, 2010
at 04:13 AM

Rick, Please tell us how strong and muscular you are. Are on Dr. McGuff's payroll? Unless you are a bodybuilder yourself, I wish you would quit acting like an expert on protein synthesis and muscular hypertrophy!

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 13, 2010
at 06:18 PM

Okay, Ill try that. Crossfit Football recommends 1gram per body weight as does Robb Wolf. I know Mark Sisson recommends 1 gram per lean body mass (he also says as low as 0.7 per lean mass). Ill try it and see how it works. I definitely dont feel like shoveling more food down my gullet, haha

5ebeec76e20738d0a17cd724d64b1e0f

(1922)

on March 13, 2010
at 07:10 AM

You shouldn't need lots of protein to be strong, and in fact it can work against you by keeping insulin too high. See the book "Body by Science" for details. Have you tried a high-fat approach?

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7 Answers

2
D15d6820ef1545edac65e975cc2d8949

on March 13, 2010
at 10:09 AM

1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass. Are you certain you have 200lbs LBM? I'm guessing there's some fat in it as well...

1
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 03:26 PM

BTW Bone broth is protein sparing.

1
95ab15c8ef50ff0daf87ccbdd52cd3b8

(2384)

on March 13, 2010
at 11:10 AM

I agree with Rick -- read "Body by Science", even if you don't plan to follow his workout regimen, and aim to have protein calories be 20-25% of your total daily intake, with the majority (60-70%) being from fat.

1
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 13, 2010
at 10:53 AM

Agree with Mikael, 1g/lb lean body mass is a reasonable rule of thumb. You might well do better on even less though, around 1.2-1.7g/kg bodyweight. This is around 15% calories from protein and the above article suggests no more than 25%, as more than this would depress ketogenesis.

If you're looking at improving recovery, restoring glycogen levels, encouraging growth (even at the loss of some leanness), then I'd suggest some strategic use of carbs, rather than simply increasing protein, since once your purely structural (repair etc) needs have been met there'll be no advantage to getting more protein and it's more physiologically stressful than carbohydrate.

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 13, 2010
at 06:18 PM

Okay, Ill try that. Crossfit Football recommends 1gram per body weight as does Robb Wolf. I know Mark Sisson recommends 1 gram per lean body mass (he also says as low as 0.7 per lean mass). Ill try it and see how it works. I definitely dont feel like shoveling more food down my gullet, haha

0
9afd1c9a5a4f86a253a1a59f403d5098

on March 17, 2010
at 11:44 AM

'it definitely won't recruit the fast-twitch fibers that essential to building strength'

Why wouldn't super slow training recruit fast twitch muscle fibers? when a load is significant and taken to a point of muscular fatigue the body will automatically recruit fast-twitch muscle fibers to try to overcome whatever threat it is up against.

Also the idea that a barbell is the only tool to stimulate muscular hypertrophy is ridiculous, we're talking about loading muscles that's all -load is load whether using nautilus equipment, barbells or rocks on a beach if the load is significant it will stimulate a response, the body won't just arbitrarily refuse to recruit the muscle fibers needed because of the cadence used or the equipment.

'Last year, at a powerlifting meet I deadlifted 435 lbs and squatted 375 lbs (at a bodyweight of 198, & 43 years old). But I'll refrain from commenting on this topic any further and leave the advice to people who don't workout, or don't any results from their workouts'

I've stiff-leg deadlifted 400lbs and squated 400lbs superslow but I'm not dumb enough to think that means anything other than I have good genetics for my chosen exercise pursuits, people who live to 110 aren't automatically experts in longevity, you need to get over your own self-importance Glenn.

With regards to protein intake I've been training 21 years and have experimented with lower protein intakes of 60-70g (at a lean bodyweight of 190lbs) and higher intakes of 250g+ and it hasn't made any great difference to the progress I make regularly in the gym but I would say this -you are your own experiment -test both low protein intakes and high protein intakes and keep a close eye on the difference in body composition, anecdotal evidence doesn't add up to much, your better off finding out for sure with your own experimentation.

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 17, 2010
at 02:02 PM

We usually post a comment on someone's reply when we are slamming it, rather than a new reply, but you probably didn't realize that. No big deal. Anyway, I don't agree with you, although it depends what you mean by "significant load." I see super-slow as endurance training, like 100 reps with a very light load. Neither recruits the explosive power fibers. Or do you think that distance runners have great explosive strength because their II-B get recruited and hypertropied whever the aerobic fibers get fatigued? In any event... we've all sort of moved on from this. Welcome the board!

0
6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on March 13, 2010
at 07:31 PM

Hi Ryan. I agree with the protein recommendations in previous answers. After you max out your gains from protein, you can add some creatine (yeah, I know it's a supplement). It's not paleo, but it is dairy-free. Creatine supplementation was discussed in depth in a previous thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/1037/creatine-and-paleo

D15d6820ef1545edac65e975cc2d8949

on March 14, 2010
at 08:27 AM

(also, you'll get 5g of creatine in 1 kg of red meat, so you don't really have to supplement with it if you absolutely don't want to)

-1
03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 14, 2010
at 04:21 AM

Achieving significant muscular growth on a low carb diet (one advantage of carbs is that they are protein-sparing) requires a large amount of protein, at least that is what my many friends who are natural bodybuilders tell me. But Rick -- who is apparently an expert on building a muscular physique-- disagrees. My suggestion is to ask someone who actually HAS muscles!

EDIT - March 14:

David, Melissa, et al, Sorry if I sounded like an a-hole. (Btw, do you all get on Richard's case when he slams the Surgeon General, or some ding-bat dietician, for being obese? Aren't "some people obese despite, not thanks to, their dietary prescription"?) I just find it a little strange that people who know something about HG diets therefore consider themselves experts on muscle protein synthesis and hypertrophy... including a guy who happily admits to having a "slight build" after weight training for 5 years. Again, Dave, I don't mean to sound like a jerk. And if you are not interested in getting bigger, that's great. But if you are, I might be able to offer some suggestions. But I think it's a mistake to make a fetish of studies and academic authority. So many people here are highly results oriented when it comes to paleo dieting. The results of fat-loss, more energy, lower blood pressure, better sleep, etc. etc. are among the most compelling arguments in the paleo community. So why is strength training and physique development suddenly so different? I've read a lot about weightlifting... but I also listen to people who have achieved results. Which is the same approach I take to paleo dieting. Am I alone in this?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 03:26 PM

Dude, Glenn, you don't have to put others down to build validity. Maybe your hulking muscles are pumping excess testosterone into your blood or something, but let's be nice :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2010
at 08:16 PM

Some of my vegan friends regularly point me to sites like http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ Don't know what to say about this sort of thing. Perhaps it shows that protein is king and if you want to build muscle using hemp protein powder, you definitely can.

D15d6820ef1545edac65e975cc2d8949

on March 14, 2010
at 08:29 AM

Advice is often given from people who achieve results *despite* whatever exercise/eating regimen they're on, not *thanks to*. Regarding insulin, well, unless you're a pig, the only anabolic action it does is for your adipose tissue...

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 14, 2010
at 12:19 PM

I see. So the more out of shape you are, and the less effective your workouts are, the more of an expert you are on building muscle. Of course! That explains everyone's obeisance to Dr. McGuff. I used to drink and smoke heavily and was a bean-pole; and only took up weight-training in my late thirties--about five years ago. Last year, at a powerlifting meet I deadlifted 435 lbs and squatted 375 lbs (at a bodyweight of 198, & 43 years old). But I'll refrain from commenting on this topic any further and leave the advice to people who don't workout, or don't any results from their workouts.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:06 PM

Hi Glenn, it's not about 'people who know about HG diets' vs people who know about hypertrophy. It's about the evidence. I'm not dismissing you, I'm dismissing the argument from authority. If you have suggestions I'd love to hear them, but I'm not interested in simply being told [the regime of a muscular person], since I've got hundreds, with wild contradictions aplenty. Cases of people who train with 1 regime, switch and notice significant improvements would be interesting ('results'); but most people I know get similar results with differing routines, whereas individuals differ massively.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 03:43 PM

The only point is that arguments and evidence, rather than appeals to authority are what counts. And if you are going to make appeals to authority, at least appeal to academic authority rather than bicep-authority... I think it's important to note that those in the muscle-mass-is-largely-genetic camp, don't argue that workouts don't get results; working out will make you stronger, leaner, more defined and healthier, it might just not increase bulk (which evolutionarily wouldn't necessarily be advantageous).

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on March 15, 2010
at 01:45 PM

Thanks Ryan. Keep at it; you'll be pulling 4 plates in no time! David, I see your point (and again, sorry if I came a little strong). You are right that people get results with all kinds of programs--even Body By Science--especially novices. But while there are always exceptions, most people will only see consistent long-term gains with regular use of heavy loads (esp. the big compound lifts that Ryan mentioned) several times a week. Most people who don't make gains aren't lifting with enough intensity. That's my problem with Dr. McGuff: he confuses fatigue with intensity. -more below

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:53 PM

Melissa, Robb Wolf in his podcasts addresses Vegan bodybuilding. He basically says that he is not against someone being vegan but that he does not do it for his clients because everytime one was vegan he noticed "failure to thrive," i.e they couldnt progress as they should be. He notes that there are some impressive vegan athletes but that they are definitely the exception not the norm. Also for a bodybuilder to be Vegan they must eat vegan foods that have been modified to be more protein dense.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on March 14, 2010
at 05:36 AM

People with muscles keep offering advice: normally lean chicken breasts every 2hours, lots of milk (esp. before bed), knocking back oats for the carb and saying that whey is esp. good because of how much insulin it produces. ;) You could just say- that'll make you muscular, but unhealthy- but I also know a tonne of people who are naturally large but never workout. Of my closest friends 2, including myself, (still) have slight builds and have trained every week for about 5 years (various programs), the 2 others are (and were) v. muscular despite lifting less than once a month.

C4d4a9db7ee3b315eae97795555a1177

(623)

on March 14, 2010
at 08:48 PM

Glenn, those are some impressive lifts, congrats! I was 6'2 170 my whole life and couldnt put weight on for the life of me, even with weight lifting. Last year at 29 yrs old I started doing more compound lifts like you described and I jumped to 194lbs within 6 months. My deadlift went from a meager 100 or so lbs to I just did 315 for 5 reps last week. Would love to get to that 400 number. I have super small bones naturally so it feels great to get some mass on. I can see why others thought you came across a bit strong but I also understand where youre coming from. Results do speak

03aeff8d87a3b53a449b5b8e9158da98

(3268)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

You can wear a muscle out by going super slow, or doing 100 reps, but that generally won't stimulate myofibrillar hypertrophy; and it definitely won't recruit the fast-twitch fibers that essential to building strength. Yes, you can hear 100 different big guys telling you how to train; but I would venture that with rare exceptions, all of them do compound barbell lifts with heavy weights. The problem with looking only at clinical studies is that they are also contradictory and often poorly designed, generally using novices, who will respond to almost any protocol. Books, yes; biceps too!

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on August 08, 2010
at 05:44 PM

How is it no one here has linked a picture of their "muscles" with all this bravado?

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