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# Are you supplementing your protein? Muscle Up - Casein, Whey, Egg

Created January 11, 2012 at 1:11 AM

Do you take whey/casein/egg/hemp proteins in an attempt to gain muscle, or (lose fat)??

*Note: The primary reason I bring this up is because most of us know that 1lb of FAT, IS 3500 calories, we know how big it is, and that its not affected by hydration. Whats IN 1lb of fat? 1lb(454grams) of Triglycerides. So, we know we must put actual fat (not protein or carbs) into our fat cells to gain 1lb of fat.

This thinking has lead many to pontificate that one must consume an EXCESS 3500 calories(500/day for 1lb/week gain) or so in order to gain 1lb of muscle, but lets take a look at whats IN muscle so that we can know that this is ridiculous at best.

Muscle Gain

Lets talk about something I think 99% of people miss the point on.

1lb of muscle is aprox 454 Grams total

Aprox 75% of muscle (fully hydrated) is in the form of water which equals 340.5 Grams

There is glycogen stored in muscle, each Gram of glycogen is bound to 4 grams of water so, if we divide 340.5 grams of water by 4 we get 85 grams. Now that is a bit high because there is not 85 grams of glycogen in each pound of muscle, there is less and the rest of the water is bound to other things. Like protein, I can not find an accurate measurement of how much water in grams is bound to a gram of protein.

Furthermore, each cell in a human being is part fat. Also, fat makes up muscle mass, just like in your steak. Of course, there are different amounts of fat in your bicep, gluteus maximus, quads, abs, calf, etc.

So, Im going to have to aproximate some things here.

454 Grams is 1lb muscle.

-340.5 Grams H20 (total)

-10 Grams Glycogen (aproximated)

-22 Grams Fat 95/5Ratio

-97 Grams Protein 95/5Ratio

=-15.5 / 4 allows for +-3.8grams for any of the above amounts.

Therefore in order to gain 1lb of "muscle" its reasonable to conclude that only 14 Grams of (extra) protein need to be available per day right?

And, don't you think that since 1lb of muscle is less than 25% Protein, it is a bit excessive to supplement with 50-100-150-200-250Grams of extra protein per day?? Especially considering that a goal of gaining, say 1lb of muscle per week, (other than for beginners and steroid users) is more than practical and not easily do-able?

(8280)

on January 30, 2012
at 10:08 AM

By the way, US RDA guideline is 50 grams of protein/day for a 2000 calorie diet. That's for the average person at maintenance. However, whenever I see the protein references in the bodybuilding literature, it doesn't add that to the protein amounts. It's baked into the numbers. So if the calculation comes out to 150 grams protein for the day, it's not adding 150 extra grams on top of the US RDA 50.

(8280)

on January 30, 2012
at 09:58 AM

I think you're making some assumptions strictly based on numbers and not taking into account a lot of the variables. It's not an efficient 1 to 1 conversion. Examples: First, protein is highly thermogenic. It takes a lot of work in the body to process. It costs around 20-30% of the calories of the protein to digest it off the top. Second, muscle isn't the only thing built from protein in the body. Third, a lot of the research with the higher protein is done on trained individuals who are exercising like crazy (like the body builders) and need to repair damage.

(6719)

on January 30, 2012
at 01:38 AM

Pretty much, IDK if you will ever see this response, but, yeah. A 1lb muscle is 90-100grams of protein max, so eating an 'extra' 100-200 grams per day should be ridiculous to anyone with critical thinking skills, UNLESS one wants the body to convert aminos to glucose in which my argument would be, why not just eat the glucose.

(78467)

on January 14, 2012
at 04:01 AM

Ground beef. Stupid phone...

(78467)

on January 14, 2012
at 04:00 AM

Its not expensive at all. Frozen chicken breast, ground need (rinse the fat off after you cook it), tuna, assorted frozen fish, and of course eggs.

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 06:21 PM

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 04:08 PM

So, once again, I ask, what is wrong with the math? What part of aprox 25% of muscle is protein and near 100% of fat is fat did you not understand?

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 04:04 PM

Im talking about the difference between how 1lb of fat is created VS 1lb of muscle and how dissimilar the physiology is. Im not insinuating that the only way to create 1lb of fat is to eat fat, although physiologically de novo lipogenesis is actually quite RARE in human beings and it has been proven time and time again that dietary fat gets stored in the presence of high glycogen/insulin as opposed to being created from high carbohydrate alone.

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 04:00 PM

(2957)

on January 13, 2012
at 12:09 PM

Have you taken a look how much it costs to get ~200g of protein per day from whole foods without going crazy with intake of fat? It's bloody expensive.

(5332)

on January 13, 2012
at 10:36 AM

Getting close there Cody

(5332)

on January 13, 2012
at 10:34 AM

There you go right there then Bill, not only do half the numbers you did include in your working make no sense, but you left others out. That's what's wrong with it.

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:59 AM

The gist of this whole thing is you don't need to supplement protein, right? Are you really asking a question or are you using paleohacks as a forum to spread your own ideas?

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:56 AM

You edit that part out and maybe link to the recent study that showed that overfeeding on protein led to more muslce gain, and you might have a solid question...

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:55 AM

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that is how I understood it.

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:54 AM

@Bill1102inf "So, we know we must put actual fat (not protein or carbs) into our fat cells to gain 1lb of fat." Sounds like you are insinuating that the only way to store fat is by eating fat.

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:51 AM

@Cody "Unless you are going to eat only protein?" No

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:51 AM

@Cody "Also, protein raises insulin which will drive fat storage." <-- Certain proteins, like pure whey powdered protein is about 20-30 Insulogenic compared to Sugar. Which means, that a 25 gram serving causes the same insulin response as 5 grams of carbs, which is nothing

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:49 AM

@Cody "Your liver makes fat out of excess carbs and insulin drives fat storage." <--WOW thats amazing, and has nothing to do with this post

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:48 AM

@Cody "I think you need to do more reading and learning. <-- why thank you

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:45 AM

Yes, I read that article at some point too. The top part about taking over 20grams pwo and it oxidizing faster makes sense, somewhat. The part below starts talking about protein not being 'absorbed' after 20-30 grams, which is misleading. There appears to be a lot of oxidation (protein conversion) when too many aminos hit the bloodstream at the same time.

(78467)

on January 13, 2012
at 12:32 AM

I think you need to do more reading and learning. Your liver makes fat out of excess carbs and insulin drives fat storage. Also, protein raises insulin which will drive fat storage. Unless you are going to eat only protein? And by the way, excess protein can be converted to sugar by the liver in a process called gluconeogenesis, so protein could potentially get stored as fat as well...

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Bill, to clarify, you're asking how much protein per day to gain a pound of muscle, and why recommendations are so much higher than what you're calculating based on excess calories/week and how much protein is in a pound of muscle?

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 10:38 PM

Ah, see, that's where I was having a hard time reading the question. I'm usually reading these things as a per day basis, not a per week basis.

(6719)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Whats wrong with the 'math'? And no where did I say '1lb a day', the 14 grams/day came from the total 97 grams of protein over 7 days

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Were you reading that as 14 grams per day? I was reading it as 14 grams per lb of muscle... Either way, it's way outside what it should be based on real world experience.

(8574)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:42 PM

Reading through this question for the 5th time...

(120)

on January 11, 2012
at 01:15 PM

You are the first human being in histpry to gain muscle mass while looking at a dumbell. Oh, Jedi Master please train us in this art.

(702)

on January 11, 2012
at 06:53 AM

Yeah exactly. Mostly what I change on high or low cal days is carb differences which is what I meant about cycling carbs. I try to keep fat no lower then 50 grams even when dieting.

(6719)

on January 11, 2012
at 05:55 AM

Frank, I think that on days you train, you should make up the calories difference with carbs, and on non training days, don't make it up at all. Heres something else thats crazy, a person could gain 5lbs of muscle in a month, not lose any fat, and not weigh any different than before, easily. If day 1 glycogen is 100%, day 30 is glycogen 25%.

(6719)

on January 11, 2012
at 05:39 AM

Frank, I agree, protein is more satiating and of course tasty as long as its meat, and not protein 'powda'. Im also doing leangains. And I have and read all of Lyles books as well. Whats hard about measuring our own muscle gain is hydration and glycogen content. I 100% completely believe that you can gain 1lb or more of muscle, but be down 5lbs on the scale, with 0 gain/loss of fat. How? Depleted glycogen+water inside that muscle. So if we weigh ourselves on when glycogen stores are FULL, we would get a much better idea as to whether or not we gained muscle.

(3536)

on January 11, 2012
at 01:31 AM

I like this question, but can't offer any thing useful, I hope others do though.

(6719)
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2

(240)

on January 11, 2012
at 01:14 PM

Almost every protein supplement is full of ingredients that contain dangerous levels of processed free glutamic acid. Have a look at this site...

http://www.truthinlabeling.org/presentregulations.html

Besides, if you are eating the proper evolutionary diet, you have no need for ANY supplements.

(2957)

on January 13, 2012
at 12:09 PM

Have you taken a look how much it costs to get ~200g of protein per day from whole foods without going crazy with intake of fat? It's bloody expensive.

(78467)

on January 14, 2012
at 04:01 AM

Ground beef. Stupid phone...

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 04:00 PM

(78467)

on January 14, 2012
at 04:00 AM

Its not expensive at all. Frozen chicken breast, ground need (rinse the fat off after you cook it), tuna, assorted frozen fish, and of course eggs.

2

(702)

on January 11, 2012
at 01:58 AM

I do supplement and consume a high protein diet, however its when I am dieting and trying to preserve muscle or build some muscle while trying to do LeanGains. I find having a diet high in protein is more satiating and very tasty! What I have been dying to do as a personal experiment though is to see what the lowest possible amount of protein I could eat and build muscle. I would probably replace the lost protein calories with fat calories and continue to cycle my carbs.

I know Lyle McDonald has a great book on PSMF ( Protein Sparing Modified Fast ) which includes a way to calculate the minimum amount of protein one would need to lose fat but preserve muscle. I think the last time I used his formula I came up with around 225grams of protein a day. This was when I was at my leanest which was 170lbs at 8% bodyfat. I usually stick to that as my minimum now when consuming protein.

(6719)

on January 11, 2012
at 05:39 AM

Frank, I agree, protein is more satiating and of course tasty as long as its meat, and not protein 'powda'. Im also doing leangains. And I have and read all of Lyles books as well. Whats hard about measuring our own muscle gain is hydration and glycogen content. I 100% completely believe that you can gain 1lb or more of muscle, but be down 5lbs on the scale, with 0 gain/loss of fat. How? Depleted glycogen+water inside that muscle. So if we weigh ourselves on when glycogen stores are FULL, we would get a much better idea as to whether or not we gained muscle.

(702)

on January 11, 2012
at 06:53 AM

Yeah exactly. Mostly what I change on high or low cal days is carb differences which is what I meant about cycling carbs. I try to keep fat no lower then 50 grams even when dieting.

(6719)

on January 11, 2012
at 05:55 AM

Frank, I think that on days you train, you should make up the calories difference with carbs, and on non training days, don't make it up at all. Heres something else thats crazy, a person could gain 5lbs of muscle in a month, not lose any fat, and not weigh any different than before, easily. If day 1 glycogen is 100%, day 30 is glycogen 25%.

1

(8574)

on January 12, 2012
at 09:02 PM

Bill I spotted this: http://www.theiflife.com/how-much-protein-per-day-build-muscle/ and it is not a bad article actually.

So according to the research above we are seeing that muscle protein synthesis maxes out after a meal at 20-30 grams and anything in over will actually not help stimulate more muscle protein synthesis, but rather just increase excess oxidation (burn for energy).

To answer your question, nope personally I am not doing anything extra apart from now eating a proper lunch at work. I.e. 2 x chicken legs, kale/spinach/broccoli, avocado. I think on average I consume about 150g of protein a day. (180g is recommended if I was to follow the per lbs of bodyweight.)

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 01:45 AM

Yes, I read that article at some point too. The top part about taking over 20grams pwo and it oxidizing faster makes sense, somewhat. The part below starts talking about protein not being 'absorbed' after 20-30 grams, which is misleading. There appears to be a lot of oxidation (protein conversion) when too many aminos hit the bloodstream at the same time.

1

(5332)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:39 PM

An awful lot of assumptions there, some strange 'math', a gross over-simplification of muscle synthesis. So to answer your question, no I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that making 14 grams of protein available every day will lead to a lean mass increase of 1lb a day. I would also suggest that the real world indicates this is insufficient.

(6719)

on January 13, 2012
at 04:08 PM

So, once again, I ask, what is wrong with the math? What part of aprox 25% of muscle is protein and near 100% of fat is fat did you not understand?

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 10:38 PM

Ah, see, that's where I was having a hard time reading the question. I'm usually reading these things as a per day basis, not a per week basis.

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Were you reading that as 14 grams per day? I was reading it as 14 grams per lb of muscle... Either way, it's way outside what it should be based on real world experience.

(5332)

on January 13, 2012
at 10:34 AM

There you go right there then Bill, not only do half the numbers you did include in your working make no sense, but you left others out. That's what's wrong with it.

(6719)

on January 12, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Whats wrong with the 'math'? And no where did I say '1lb a day', the 14 grams/day came from the total 97 grams of protein over 7 days

0

(249)

on January 11, 2012
at 10:06 AM

No. Never. I find a Paleo-type diet to have more than enough protein without supplementation. I can put on muscle just looking at a dumbell.

(120)

on January 11, 2012
at 01:15 PM

You are the first human being in histpry to gain muscle mass while looking at a dumbell. Oh, Jedi Master please train us in this art.

0

(8280)

on January 11, 2012
at 09:44 AM

Not quite sure what you're getting at with the question, or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Usual goal I see is 1 gram of protein per lb of lean body weight for mass gain. That's substantially less than 14 grams per lb.

(8280)

on January 12, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Bill, to clarify, you're asking how much protein per day to gain a pound of muscle, and why recommendations are so much higher than what you're calculating based on excess calories/week and how much protein is in a pound of muscle?

(8280)

on January 30, 2012
at 09:58 AM

I think you're making some assumptions strictly based on numbers and not taking into account a lot of the variables. It's not an efficient 1 to 1 conversion. Examples: First, protein is highly thermogenic. It takes a lot of work in the body to process. It costs around 20-30% of the calories of the protein to digest it off the top. Second, muscle isn't the only thing built from protein in the body. Third, a lot of the research with the higher protein is done on trained individuals who are exercising like crazy (like the body builders) and need to repair damage.

(6719)

on January 30, 2012
at 01:38 AM

Pretty much, IDK if you will ever see this response, but, yeah. A 1lb muscle is 90-100grams of protein max, so eating an 'extra' 100-200 grams per day should be ridiculous to anyone with critical thinking skills, UNLESS one wants the body to convert aminos to glucose in which my argument would be, why not just eat the glucose.

(8280)

on January 30, 2012
at 10:08 AM

By the way, US RDA guideline is 50 grams of protein/day for a 2000 calorie diet. That's for the average person at maintenance. However, whenever I see the protein references in the bodybuilding literature, it doesn't add that to the protein amounts. It's baked into the numbers. So if the calculation comes out to 150 grams protein for the day, it's not adding 150 extra grams on top of the US RDA 50.