6

votes

Getting the most species in a friendly bacterial mix into your system?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 07, 2012 at 6:25 AM

The recent talk about the "old friends" theory has made me think about this.

One of the groups of old friends is in soil, and people who live around dirt get less immune issues.

Aparently some intestinal worms may help immune issues, but that seems risky and extreme to me, there are plenty of negatives and risks to that tack. Save that kind of craziness for the desperate and super sick.

I recently, sadly had to go on a couple of week course of anti-biotics (bout two-three months ago) :/ My digestion as always been a bit out of wack, but avoiding starch and fodmaps takes care of most of my issues, symptom wise. However it aint entirely right yet either....

On one hand I am still doing gelatin and such to get my gut mucosa to repair, which is helping and may take lots of time but I am long term increasingly considering this bacterial angle, despite the fact that two or three species probiotics did nothing beneficial for me at all, and caused a little bit of a reaction.

These are my ideas so far, please help me sort this out, and let me know what you think are the best options for repopulation of gut bacteria especially if you have some understanding of what little science we understand about it!

  1. Kefir seems to be much much richer than the majority of probiotics. Some people seem to swear by it. But id prefer not to ingest any galactose or lactose if possible, or fodmaps or sugars/carbs of any kind. Big ask for a live culture maybe..... Does kefir have these? What is water kefir exactly? What are peoples experiences with kefir?

  2. This stuff claims to have soil based micro-organisms. I beleive some of the important "old friends" in the old friends theory were soil based. Has anyone tried this stuff, or know anything about the bacteria they may contain? Consider me intrigued.

http://www.amazon.com/Prescript-Assist-Spectrum-Probiotic-Prebiotic-Capsules/dp/B0049NW9UI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327605722&sr=8-1&tag=vglnk-c27-20

  1. Super complex , well designed pro-biotics? Something light years ahead of probiotic yogurts, and free of lactose etc even? Anyone with any stirling probiotic suggestions would be much appreciated too.

Are any other ideas on a more comprehensive way to restore gut bacteria without doing crazy stuff like eating dirt and ingesting parasitic worms? Its sad that theres nothing without the whole 500 or so species of gut bacteria, in perfect balance (science doesnt even know how to culture most of the stuff in our gut)

Also it would seem with an overactive immune system, and health issues, that youd probably want to start really small with the freindly bacteria, ultra low doses. If I do go down this route, hopefully with a much more comprehensive plan than chucking down a local store brought probiotic, what are some tips to avoid your system chucking a hissy?

Cheers!

1e36119906da54831601a7c23674f581

(698)

on September 02, 2012
at 01:45 PM

I would... LOL Gimme some shit in a capsule any day!

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:31 PM

I came across this probiotic http://organic3.com/gutpro/ I really do not know much about it, but the ingredients look good. Too bad, it is a bit pricey. A friend of mine is taking soil-based probiotic, I forgot about the name. She swears by it. If you need me to, I can find out what is the name of it.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:13 AM

Amen sista Jamie! :) Girl you've been through a lot. Im sure you have looked into GAPS. I think Natasha Campbell does consults... just saying. It sounds like you have really figured a lot out. take good care.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:00 AM

very tentative faith in doctors, very tentative faith in googling research papers and books and my own scientific background, very tentative faith in others subjective experiences with there illness and cures and very tentative faith in logic and what seems most intuitive. Any given medical problem I have will be examined on all these fronts, and any information gathered combined and examined. I might suggest that any time one is without a clue medically, one should see a doctor, and then gather other information, but id equally suggest that one shouldn't treat a doctors word as gospel truth.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:54 AM

My experience with doctors and diagnoses suggests that most doctors follow poor or outdated science, dont care enough to pay proper attention to a patients symptoms, usually pretend they have total knowledge when such is impossible, and are totally unwilling to examine things logically outside of a very prescriptive education and other preconceptions. I admit, its not a job Id want to do either, I can understand why they all partially check out, but as much as they might know more than me about, a certain area or whatever, my experiences being sick and without any solution have lead me to have

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:49 AM

I have had my motility measured, and it is damaged. As such I can count on my cleaning waves being messed up too. The weird thing is about probiotic food/pills, is you dont want bacteria in your entire digestive tract, you want it in your bowel, where they digest difficult to digest plant matter etc and are supposed to live.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:45 AM

post infectious IBS, and things that feed bacteria give me excess burping and bloating, at a time frame that suggests small intestine. At the time when this what at its worst, the last things I would have considered is volantarily ingesting concentrated lactose. And then if what ever critters had crawled up my small intestine may not produce hydrogen or even methane. As ive stated in this thread science doesnt even know how to culture most gut bacteria, so even if they went in there and took a sample, that might misdiagnose SIBO.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:42 AM

More or less yes. Breath test is not 100% accurate, though ive never had it. I have been diagnosed with "ibs" 13 years ago, specifically post-infectious. Just more recently I was burping for hours on end, nearly drowning in them. Anti-biotics cleared it up, but afterwards I noticed I would burp more 4-5 hours after eating milk, lots of sugar, fructose or starch. I have since started on a fodmap and low carb paleo diet, and things seem to be under control more than they have ever been. In a way its immaterial whether I have SIBO or not, my motility is damaged as per course from

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 07, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Seriously - would anybody actually do this?

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 07, 2012
at 05:21 PM

SIBO is complicated for sure and I do know there are some "experts" (though not all, there's not a consensus) who recommend no probiotics for SIBO. Jamie are you certain that you do in fact have SIBO. Did you do that breath test? My neice was misdiagnosed.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on July 07, 2012
at 04:29 PM

You'd pick someone who is healthy and has a robust digestion system, and good weight regulation, as the donor.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:28 PM

Thankfully I have a diet that minimises my issues, and a method of minimising irritation too. The correct next step can be a considered one.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:25 PM

PaleoDel - yes I often put e before i. Old habit...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:24 PM

I like to know what I am doing before I take a treatment. Besides, I already tried a probiotic, back when my symptoms were worse, and it did nasty things to me. I think when u get your gut to a certain level of deranged, caution is warrented IMO...your immune system is trigger happy, and your balance is sensitive.. Gut bugs is kinda pioneer stuff too, not well understood.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:20 PM

I have heard alot of people recommend VSL3 actually. Once reason I am waiting before I make up my mind, is I have had intense SIBO - an overgrowth of gut bacteria into the small intestine. As such my small intenstine doesnt have good cleansing waves, its a bit broken. I want some level of healing first and a fair bit of forethought before I risk re-infecting my small intestine wit more gut bacteria. Actually as gross as it is, some form of probiotic suppository probably makes more sense. Stomach acid probably kills some strains anyway. Something else for me to consider and research.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Not really. How would I know they had the right bacteria? Its doubtful they would have had no anti-biotics and had exposure to dirt, unfiltered water or animal poop. If they did, they could also have something nasty. Each person has there own "set point" too, and I am not sure if you can change that much at all. I guess I am still figuring this out slowly, before I make some kind of informed choice on the matter.

4929a87e3f7438f18a0afbdde291ed5e

(752)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:03 PM

I can't do dairy, so I have been using So Delicious coconut kefir. I'm not thrilled with commercial based products in general, but I can't do lactose, even in the small amounts that remain after the bacteria go to town in the Kefir. I think I will try Chris Kresser's water kefir - I guess you buy the grains on line, give them a small amount of sugar to feed on and voila - water kefir. I'm not sure I like the idea of the sugar, but hey, I NEED the good bacterial more than I don't need sucrose. :)

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on July 07, 2012
at 01:54 PM

Sorry, I meant that to comment on the original "question".

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on July 07, 2012
at 01:53 PM

friends friends friends friends friends

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3 Answers

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4
4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

on July 07, 2012
at 06:55 AM

Wow. So much info here, and good Questions.

You are asking more trouble, IMO, with dirt and worms... how would you really know what you are getting!? YIKES.

Besides Kefir (and there is one person on here, Eugenia, I think who has a website and recipes for Goat milk kefir. Lots of great info.) how about fermented foods like are used in GAPS Diet www.gapsdiet.com

And while you might need to start small, I personally would not waste ANY time in restoring my GI tract after two weeks of antibiotic. I honestly do not understand your reasoning here, makes no sense to me - "... it would seem with an overactive immune system, and health issues, that youd probably want to start really small with the freindly bacteria, ultra low doses."

I would use (and have used) a lot of probiotics for a full "restoration" (450bill twice a day for 10 days) and it was very successful. I personally used a combination of Klaire Labs, Ther-Biotic Complete and VSL3.

Good luck to you.

ADDED: Eugenia has a lot of good info. Here is her blog and recipes. I hope you will get an answer from her! http://eugenia.queru.com/category/recipes/

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:24 PM

I like to know what I am doing before I take a treatment. Besides, I already tried a probiotic, back when my symptoms were worse, and it did nasty things to me. I think when u get your gut to a certain level of deranged, caution is warrented IMO...your immune system is trigger happy, and your balance is sensitive.. Gut bugs is kinda pioneer stuff too, not well understood.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:49 AM

I have had my motility measured, and it is damaged. As such I can count on my cleaning waves being messed up too. The weird thing is about probiotic food/pills, is you dont want bacteria in your entire digestive tract, you want it in your bowel, where they digest difficult to digest plant matter etc and are supposed to live.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:42 AM

More or less yes. Breath test is not 100% accurate, though ive never had it. I have been diagnosed with "ibs" 13 years ago, specifically post-infectious. Just more recently I was burping for hours on end, nearly drowning in them. Anti-biotics cleared it up, but afterwards I noticed I would burp more 4-5 hours after eating milk, lots of sugar, fructose or starch. I have since started on a fodmap and low carb paleo diet, and things seem to be under control more than they have ever been. In a way its immaterial whether I have SIBO or not, my motility is damaged as per course from

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:13 AM

Amen sista Jamie! :) Girl you've been through a lot. Im sure you have looked into GAPS. I think Natasha Campbell does consults... just saying. It sounds like you have really figured a lot out. take good care.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:25 PM

PaleoDel - yes I often put e before i. Old habit...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:45 AM

post infectious IBS, and things that feed bacteria give me excess burping and bloating, at a time frame that suggests small intestine. At the time when this what at its worst, the last things I would have considered is volantarily ingesting concentrated lactose. And then if what ever critters had crawled up my small intestine may not produce hydrogen or even methane. As ive stated in this thread science doesnt even know how to culture most gut bacteria, so even if they went in there and took a sample, that might misdiagnose SIBO.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:28 PM

Thankfully I have a diet that minimises my issues, and a method of minimising irritation too. The correct next step can be a considered one.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 02:54 AM

My experience with doctors and diagnoses suggests that most doctors follow poor or outdated science, dont care enough to pay proper attention to a patients symptoms, usually pretend they have total knowledge when such is impossible, and are totally unwilling to examine things logically outside of a very prescriptive education and other preconceptions. I admit, its not a job Id want to do either, I can understand why they all partially check out, but as much as they might know more than me about, a certain area or whatever, my experiences being sick and without any solution have lead me to have

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on July 07, 2012
at 01:53 PM

friends friends friends friends friends

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:00 AM

very tentative faith in doctors, very tentative faith in googling research papers and books and my own scientific background, very tentative faith in others subjective experiences with there illness and cures and very tentative faith in logic and what seems most intuitive. Any given medical problem I have will be examined on all these fronts, and any information gathered combined and examined. I might suggest that any time one is without a clue medically, one should see a doctor, and then gather other information, but id equally suggest that one shouldn't treat a doctors word as gospel truth.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 07, 2012
at 05:21 PM

SIBO is complicated for sure and I do know there are some "experts" (though not all, there's not a consensus) who recommend no probiotics for SIBO. Jamie are you certain that you do in fact have SIBO. Did you do that breath test? My neice was misdiagnosed.

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on July 07, 2012
at 01:54 PM

Sorry, I meant that to comment on the original "question".

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:20 PM

I have heard alot of people recommend VSL3 actually. Once reason I am waiting before I make up my mind, is I have had intense SIBO - an overgrowth of gut bacteria into the small intestine. As such my small intenstine doesnt have good cleansing waves, its a bit broken. I want some level of healing first and a fair bit of forethought before I risk re-infecting my small intestine wit more gut bacteria. Actually as gross as it is, some form of probiotic suppository probably makes more sense. Stomach acid probably kills some strains anyway. Something else for me to consider and research.

3
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 07, 2012
at 04:19 PM

Yes studies show that farmers and families that have animals have less allergies and immune issues in general. My solution is that we as a family have pets. I eat food directly from my home garden without washing it. I also do a "wild fermentation" of varieties of foods and lacto-ferment different veggies. Skip the probiotic by pill route IMO.

In fact it seems you may like this book http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237 Speaks to the issue of ingesting and making part of yourself the little critters that are in your local environment.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 07, 2012
at 12:46 PM

Considered human probiotic infusion?

aka fecal transplant/fecal bacteriotherapy/fecal flora reconstitution

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on July 07, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Seriously - would anybody actually do this?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 07, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Not really. How would I know they had the right bacteria? Its doubtful they would have had no anti-biotics and had exposure to dirt, unfiltered water or animal poop. If they did, they could also have something nasty. Each person has there own "set point" too, and I am not sure if you can change that much at all. I guess I am still figuring this out slowly, before I make some kind of informed choice on the matter.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on July 07, 2012
at 04:29 PM

You'd pick someone who is healthy and has a robust digestion system, and good weight regulation, as the donor.

1e36119906da54831601a7c23674f581

(698)

on September 02, 2012
at 01:45 PM

I would... LOL Gimme some shit in a capsule any day!

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