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Forced FLU vaccination for work (pregnant)

Commented on October 21, 2013
Created October 20, 2013 at 1:59 AM

I am being forced to get the FLU vaccine this FALL or be forced to wear a mask from now until end of FLU season. I do not believe in the effectiveness of vaccines and am leery of the chemicals they are made up of. I am also pregnant and fear harm to my baby.

I have sensitive skin and wearing a mask all day will probably cause severe irritation if worn for months on end. Any advice or similar situations?

Fa51f2da1ed61c1177813672b07fe7a5

(20)

on October 21, 2013
at 02:03 AM

THIS! The flu can actually be quite dangerous (even though plenty of people claim to get the "flu" each year when they just have a little cold), especially for pregnant women (you) and people with already compromised immune systems (the people you're working around). Obviously, it's up to you, but I don't see how it's unreasonable for them to ask you to wear a mask. The inconvenience, of course, could be avoided with just getting a little needle in your arm

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 09:36 PM

The only professions I've heard of with compulsory flu shots is health care. I'd hope that somebody working in health care with constant exposure to infectious patients would stay up to date on vaccinations. Particularly one who is pregnant as well - the flu inducing a miscarrage is a very real risk.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 09:32 PM

Exactly, it's not profit motive, it's simply the science around it doesn't allow for a permanent flu vaccine… yet.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 09:32 PM

Our bodies are seeming incapable of making antibodies against the common antigens found on all flu viruses. No surprise that science has also found that exceedingly challenging.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 09:30 PM

Wakefield was working with anti-vaccine kooks prior to his Lancet publication. Experts can spout bad science as well.

B885dc10c6263f5a4492205d50560bee

(401)

on October 20, 2013
at 09:02 PM

....Like when a court decided professional scientists should be jailed for not predicting an earthquake. Like when a court decided to award compensation to some kids whose parents believed, despite all evidence otherwise, that their autism was caused by vaccines. Like when laypeople make decisions about science in a court of law while having no scientific knowledge or training themselves. Sorry; juries and judges are not infallible, and very, very few judges and juries are trained in the scientific method.

B885dc10c6263f5a4492205d50560bee

(401)

on October 20, 2013
at 07:23 PM

Scientists have been working on an all-flu-strain vaccine for decades; unfortunately, it's extraordinarily difficult to do. There are many, many variables that do not lend themselves to easily creating/discovery a cure-all for every strain and type of flu. You assume quite a bit when you say the industry has no interest in making a truly effective product; perhaps you should instead research how much time and money has been spent searching for a cure-all as well as the hurdles scientists continue to struggle with in creating/discovering one, even after dozens of years.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 07:11 PM

But courts do decide based on evidence found by professional experts whom work in the fields related to the case - doctors, researchers, specialists etc. - scientists

B885dc10c6263f5a4492205d50560bee

(401)

on October 20, 2013
at 07:11 PM

You are misunderstanding what is being stated. Flu vaccines are effective...against the strains of flu included in the vaccine. The flu constantly evolves and mutates, which is why there are new flu vaccines every year; not because the old vaccines don't work, but because the strains change and the vaccines have to change along with them.

B885dc10c6263f5a4492205d50560bee

(401)

on October 20, 2013
at 07:10 PM

Just like the Italian court who jailed a group of scientists for not predicting an earthquake. Laypeople making decisions about science while having no scientific knowledge is never a good idea.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 05:29 PM

Courts do not decide science.

D371623b5671d11fa678b201ff23442b

on October 20, 2013
at 04:34 PM

Matt, if there's no correlation between Vaccines->autism, how do you explain this? http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/804/9/

D371623b5671d11fa678b201ff23442b

on October 20, 2013
at 03:32 PM

"Big guns" is correct. Those with SIBO, for example, will probably never get rid of their SIBO unless they take pharmaceutical antibiotics.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 03:16 PM

I don't disagree with what you are saying. You admit the flu vaccine is not effective, yes I agree. You are purposely down playing the big business flu shots are. It seems as though the industry has much more vested in keeping this yearly business cycle going than actually finding a cure or producing a truly effective product. Yes like anything the more doses of something you take the higher the risk involved of the long run. I am trying to find the truth/correlation between vaccines and elevated occurences of birth defects or developmental disorders.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 02:47 PM

You might not believe in the effectiveness of vaccines, but it will still protect you and your unborn child.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 02:46 PM

Europe has a terrible anti-science bent to their politics. They're nearly as bad as the anti-evolutionists in the states. You don't like the flu vaccine because it's not universal, that's true, it's not a universal vaccine, the science for a universal flu vaccine is not there yet. If you really do run the numbers though, the risk from the shot itself is dwarfed by the risk from the disease itself. Flu included!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 02:44 PM

Impossible to really know if there's a causative link between vaccines and those effects you mention. Why did autism get blamed on vaccinations? Because autism is diagnosed at the same time these vaccinations are typically adminstered. There is no greater rate of autism in vaccinated children than non-vaccinated children.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 02:42 PM

What are these elevated risks that you speak of with respect to the flu vaccine? No vaccine is side-effect free, the fact that the flu vaccine must be given yearly will mean that side-effect numbers are higher, but not necessarily the rate of side effects.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 02:41 PM

The yearly flu shot is simply due to the science of the flu virus itself. The antigens used to make an efficacious vaccine are variable year to year. Only recently has science been catching up and in the future a more universal flu vaccine may be possible, the science simply isn't there yet (our bodies don't make antibodies against the universal flu antigens either, that's why it's difficult.)

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:52 PM

I am not arguing against vaccination in general. The MMR is a good vaccine, the TB is a good vaccine. I am arguing against the flu vaccine specifically.

I would also add that you receive MMR in a 2 vaccination sequence and that's enough to protect most people until they die. The flu vaccine is pushed to everyone once a year so much more indicative of efficacy as well as elevated risks.

Medium avatar

(15)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:27 PM

death is not the only important factor. what about birth defects? developmental disorders? what are those numbers? did you consider contamination percentages? lots of variables to consider especially when weighing them against the history humans have of birthing and developing without synthesized viruses being introduced during gestation.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:25 PM

It means you should consider the source and the effect the outcome of the study might have on their bottom line/industry impact/lobbyists etc.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:23 PM

LOL I am actually from a 3rd world country and there are places and effective vaccines - tetanus, TB, measels, mumps, rubella. The flu vaccine is not effective and poses lots of questions regarding the additional chemistry and it's side effects. Some countries have even banned some of them (novartis). see switzerland and italy. they have come back on the market in those countries but after they where deemed "safe"

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:06 PM

Spoken like a first worlder who's never experienced any of these serious illnesses (thanks to vaccination).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:06 PM

The flu vaccine was discussed previously (many times) on PH, the last discussion I participated in, I ran the numbers and it was something like you're 100000x more likely to die from the flu than die from the flu shot. I didn't consider less severe outcomes than death. But consider up to 5 mil people get the flu yearly and they'll be sick for approximately a week, that's 35 mil person-days of flu. No way the vaccine side effect even approaches that level of person-days affected.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 01:05 PM

You can count the number of non-government non-industry studies on a single hand. That does not disqualify a study, particularly the data collected.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 12:30 PM

Can you cite a study showing that? a study not funded by the government or a pharmaceutical company? An independent study? Even if so the efficacy of the flu vaccine is unreliable.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 20, 2013
at 12:19 PM

The studies linking vaccinations with autism are bunk and complete fraud. That's been known for years now!

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 12:03 PM

Great answer, too many people rely on government/pharma "studies" without doing further research yet they dont understand how much money is involved in pushing these drugs every year.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 11:58 AM

Either accept being injected with unknown chemicals or wear a face mask for 2-3 months? I don't know if that's what i would consider fair. The efficacy of the flu vaccine is not very well understood in general. I for one have not had the flu vaccine my entire adult life and have not had any severe sickness. I would like to see long term studies on people who have had the vaccine yearly and trends they might develop.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 11:50 AM

Are you aware of the risks associated with vaccinations? There are quite a few accounts correlating vaccines with autism. Even if skeptical they are prevalent enough to cause real concerns. Vaccines are also usually preserved which may or may not be harmful to a developing child. And I'm sure she is either being given to option to wear a mask or get the vaccine not because she wants to be silly. Also there are hundreds if not thousands of strains of FLU the vaccine protects you against a small number of strains from last years flu season.

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4 Answers

0
Medium avatar

on October 21, 2013
at 01:13 AM

Unless you have some sort of allergic reaction to the vaccines themselves I would advise getting them. I believe this is where we draw the line between "natural" and "chemical". You have to realize that a lot of the people that try to discredit vaccines are also the same who try to sell natural products and scams. The flu itself is a very deadly virus and even if vaccines were as harmful as most quacks say they are, I would still get the vaccine. It's better off than dying from a virus that could have been prevented with a shot. You also have to realize that our bodies are very resilient and we have many organs that are constantly working around the clock to keep our bodies in homeostasis. So most chemicals that enter the body usually leave the body quickly.

Fa51f2da1ed61c1177813672b07fe7a5

(20)

on October 21, 2013
at 02:03 AM

THIS! The flu can actually be quite dangerous (even though plenty of people claim to get the "flu" each year when they just have a little cold), especially for pregnant women (you) and people with already compromised immune systems (the people you're working around). Obviously, it's up to you, but I don't see how it's unreasonable for them to ask you to wear a mask. The inconvenience, of course, could be avoided with just getting a little needle in your arm

0
Medium avatar

(238)

on October 20, 2013
at 06:47 AM

They are not actually forcing you to get a shot as they give you a choice. I'd say that is somewhat of a fair policy. I assume you are in health care, so I can see the employers side of things. I used to get the flu shot but don't bother anymore as my health is so much better that I feel I can fight off the flu. I'd work on the mask situation trying to make it comfortable for yourself as I am not so sure about giving a flu vaccine to a fetus - it sounds like a bad bit of medicine. As far as I know the flu mist doesn't use preservatives so you would avoid that potential issue if you took the spray.

Best of luck whatever you choose.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 11:58 AM

Either accept being injected with unknown chemicals or wear a face mask for 2-3 months? I don't know if that's what i would consider fair. The efficacy of the flu vaccine is not very well understood in general. I for one have not had the flu vaccine my entire adult life and have not had any severe sickness. I would like to see long term studies on people who have had the vaccine yearly and trends they might develop.

0
0f8f77156cd0667d43194fc4b8bc3b5d

on October 20, 2013
at 04:50 AM

Over the course of 20 years in the medical field, as someone who has taken care of 5 Guillain Barre Syndrome patients (related to vaccines), AND taken care of 3 patients who died of the N1H1 swine flu and countless others who died of the usual fall flues (most with pre-existing respiratory disorders such as asthma, COPD, or multiple co-morbidities), I can see the pros and cons of both sides, for and against flu shots. (Please remember, you can still get the flu, even if you did have the vaccine).

Here's some info from settled cases of vaccine related injuries:

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/flu-shot-causes-polio-like-guillain-barre-syndrome-are-rates-higher-than-the-government-admits/

Here's what the government says:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm

We each have to decide for ourselves and our families. I already have known multiple chemical sensitivities, and anaphylaxis reaction to a few foods so I believe my immune system is challenged enough and I avoid exposure to any optional chemicals/injectables. I also feel it may be a GOOD thing that I, too, am "forced" to wear a mask at work because I decline the flu shot. In this way, I can in good conscious continue to care for patients without exposing them to a possible respiratory virus I may contract, AND I might be able to shield MYSELF from all the viruses carried by sick patients who are NOT required to get a flu shot, who may be admitted and be frequently coughing near me.

Also, the incredible irony with the many, doctors/interns/residents working along side of me who are NOT required to get a flu shot (independent contractor vs employee of hospital, so hospital can't force them to get a shot) makes me laugh at the idiocy of requiring half the staff to do one thing, while the other half, who are around the SAME patients, can simply forego it.

I get the facial rash from surgical masks at work so I make my own masks to wear at work during the flu season out of colorful 100% cotton fabric. (they can force you to wear a mask, but can't force you to use one of theirs - which is infused with chemicals).

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 12:03 PM

Great answer, too many people rely on government/pharma "studies" without doing further research yet they dont understand how much money is involved in pushing these drugs every year.

0
Fa51f2da1ed61c1177813672b07fe7a5

(20)

on October 20, 2013
at 03:52 AM

Honestly, the flu is even MORE dangerous for pregnant woman, as it can harm not only the mother, but the baby. I think there's a fine line to draw between wanting to stay all natural and putting yourself in unnecessarily risky situations. Do you read Nom Nom Paleo? She's a pharmacist at a large hospital and a Paleo food blogger. I recently heard her on a podcast explain that sometimes, even if going all natural is wonderful and all, the big guns need to be brought out to solve major health issues.

Anyway, it's obviouslyy up to you, but I think it's silly to wear a mask that'll get on your nerves and irritate your skin for months simply because you don't see the benefit of a flu shot.

46f7fc24a213b038ab3f0a97c73a5441

(5)

on October 20, 2013
at 11:50 AM

Are you aware of the risks associated with vaccinations? There are quite a few accounts correlating vaccines with autism. Even if skeptical they are prevalent enough to cause real concerns. Vaccines are also usually preserved which may or may not be harmful to a developing child. And I'm sure she is either being given to option to wear a mask or get the vaccine not because she wants to be silly. Also there are hundreds if not thousands of strains of FLU the vaccine protects you against a small number of strains from last years flu season.

D371623b5671d11fa678b201ff23442b

on October 20, 2013
at 03:32 PM

"Big guns" is correct. Those with SIBO, for example, will probably never get rid of their SIBO unless they take pharmaceutical antibiotics.

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