13

votes

When did we lose the instinct to eat our placentas?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 12, 2011 at 6:15 PM

I did placenta encapsulation when my son was born, and found it to be the perfect medicine to recover from birth and postpartum anxiety and fatigue. I actually liked it so much, I learned how to do it for other people.

Placentaphagy seems to be near universal in the animal kingdom, and I keep reading that it was likely common in early humans, but I haven't found any information about when this fell out of fashion....paleolithic, neolithic, AD, 200 years ago?

It just seems weird that something so good is pretty much a flat out taboo.

9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on August 10, 2012
at 11:10 PM

koreans eat dogs!!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 29, 2011
at 12:49 AM

Very cool, I'm curious to know what your experience is trying it at 4 months. Oh how I wish I still had some around. Enjoy!

78fcdeee6ac4ee7d071bbac56b9e359f

(1035)

on July 28, 2011
at 07:57 PM

Just wanted to say this question inspired me to get my four month old placenta out of the freezer and do something with it. I cut it up into small chunks for future smoothies/meals and ate a bit of it raw. A pretty amazing experience! The smell alone brought me right back to the birth. I'm sure it would have been more beneficial for me to have eaten directly post partum, but better late than never.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 05:30 PM

Ha! I love it! Good find.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 03:28 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 02:11 AM

I think this answers my question, or at least causes me to reframe my assumptions that led to the question in the first place. We haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in the west. Which kind of brings me back to my thoughts about the radical shift in religions in the west 3000-5000 years ago. Those new religions worked pretty hard to tarnish the reputation of many things female. I'm guessing the desire to chow down on your placenta would have been discouraged, along with all the other desires women weren't supposed to have, one of which led to the invention of female circumcision.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 02:07 AM

I think this kind of answers my question, or at least causes me to reframe my assumptions that led to the question in the first place. So, we haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in the west. Which kind of brings me back to my thoughts about the radical shift in religions in the west 3000-5000 years ago. Those new religions worked pretty hard to tarnish the reputation of many things female. I'm guessing the desire to chow down on your placenta would have been discouraged, along with all the other desires women weren't supposed to have leading to the invention of female circumcision.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I think is kind of answers my question that we haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in western cultures.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:04 AM

I have kind of a gut feeling that this probably went by the wayside when god changed gender. There are so many negative memes in modern society around pregnancy and birth, I can't help but feel they are a holdover from when the sun gods came rolling into town. Its in even in the root of our language, when I was trying to learn French to help us remember the gender of words our teacher told us that if it was unpleasant you could be pretty sure it was feminine.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:01 AM

I have kind of a gut feeling that this probably went by the wayside when god changed gender. There are so many negative memes in modern society around pregnancy and birth, I can't help but feel they are a holdover from when the sun gods came rolling into town.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 12:55 AM

Someone below added that dogs seem to need to eat their placenta to nurse their pups, and I'm pretty sure canines are at the top of their food chain.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on July 12, 2011
at 09:02 PM

Lol! Nice comments! I think I'll leave this thread alone now :)

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:53 PM

In my mind, killing/butchering a wild animal is not worth half the points of eating a placenta. I would gladly kill/butcher all of my own meat if I had the skills and resources (and in fact am taking steps to do so in the near future). I would not gladly eat a placenta any time soon.

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:41 PM

Probably just because we are not always hungry anymore.

9759643ce5d97ab8fa649ae954656c4c

(3325)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:30 PM

I really wish I ate mine. I had pretty debilitating PPD after the birth of my first child (9 years ago) and mild PPD after my second (6 years ago). Both of their placentas very graciously fertilized my garden boxes and nourished the food we grow. It wasn't until about 5 years ago when I met a doula who told me about the method that you used--making pills and ingesting it slowly as medicine--that I really understood the healing potential.

776cf39df980711e80fc02317eb64649

(892)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Yup, here's the link: http://www.nihon-sofuken.co.jp/english/index.php

345c1755efe005edd162b770dc6fb821

(8767)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:17 PM

grossing me out now!

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Sorry if I wasn't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Sorry if I wans't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Sorry if I wan't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:06 PM

They really should have warned you. All things placenta seemed really intimate to me, I personally couldn't have pulled off a cocktail party right after having my baby, much less a guerilla placentaphagy one. Until it was completely processed and in the capsules I only wanted myself, my husband, my midwife, and my doula to handle it.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:04 PM

I have helped gut an elk and countless fowl. The birds are much worse to me for some reason - and much more vicious. 500K for ME!!!!!!! The placenta and feces are so repulsive to me though that now I think I may be 750K in the hole :(

2f931662684a7747be36255c8b486228

(1049)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:03 PM

Makes me want to get pregnant just to try what I missed out on!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:56 PM

All things placenta related felt really intimate to me, and I only wanted it and even I can't get on board with not warning people it that is the kind of dinner party you are throwing. For some reason the Tom Cruise placenta chili thing pissed me off, if only because he was stealing the healing potential from his wife.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:48 PM

I'm pretty sure I would have been set on fire many times over by now. Glad to be alive in a time when that isn't at the top of my list of worries. My mind buzzes with conspiracy theories about the need to keep women in a slightly weakened state and in their place whenever I run across visceral negative responses from male doctors about this. All I know is that I felt like a super hero for a few months after my placenta pill experience. I can understand how that strength could be intimidating.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:42 PM

I'm with Heather on this one. When I first moved to Berkeley I was invited to a home for what I thought was just a cocktail party. Oh no. It was some ceremony where the parents ate the placenta of their newborn while we all watched. This Southern Belle nearly lost it. Someone should have at least warned me.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:38 PM

@travis - I think it has alleged benefits other than nutrients -- hormones and such.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:34 PM

It is interesting that you mention communion because the placenta pills are taken with a small amount of wine, and about 3 days into it, I was sitting there will my little placenta pills and apartif glass of wine, and hit with this flash of, "This is where communion came from!!!" Most Christian rituals seem to have been appropriated at some point or another from earlier religion or cultures that were converted.

9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on July 12, 2011
at 07:29 PM

OK NO POINTS FOR THAT LAST ONE.. that one did put me off my food.. (had to google it)

9759643ce5d97ab8fa649ae954656c4c

(3325)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Nature is infinitely more complex than this. Sure, keeping predators away may have been at the root of our instinct to eat the placenta in the first place. Often there is more than one benefit. In this case there are chemical and nutritional benefits, as well.

9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on July 12, 2011
at 07:28 PM

ok you should get no points for that last one.. that DID

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:28 PM

In a lot of my research on this I keep seeing "awareness of blood borne pathogens" as being a reason for why people wouldn't want to do this, but I was under the impression that you can't make yourself sick from your own blood.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:24 PM

My doula used the TCM method of steaming it with heating herbs, drying it out, and then grinding it up into a powder. I'm glad not every society went through a phase of setting their herbalists on fire.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:21 PM

I looked into the removing the scent of birth theory, but it doesn't hold up for me because there are so many other scents and fluids you end up with after a birth (again my apologies for those eating lunch), that the mama has no interest in ingesting/cleaning up. I know there may be no "nutritional" need to eat the things, but I found there to be profound hormonal reasons to do so.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:11 PM

What's the actual nutrient density in placenta? I doubt that it even approaches ruminant liver.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:10 PM

This is a contest I don't really want to win.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Ooops, sorry for posting this at lunch time.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:39 PM

It fell out of fashion when we became the top of the food chain and no longer had to remove the scent of blood to prevent predators from finding and eating us.

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10 Answers

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6
776cf39df980711e80fc02317eb64649

(892)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:21 PM

I am Chinese, and this is very, very common in Chinese culture and medicine. At least, in traditional culture. Nowadays, modern women probably shirk at the idea. The doctor always gives you the option of keeping the placenta, and if you don't take it, there's a huge line of people who'd love to have it, weird as it may seem. It's considered a tremendously powerful "bu" food, meaning that it is extremely effective in replenishing depleted nutrients and restoring energy. Actually, placenta seems to be popular all around in East Asia. I was at a cosmetic store in Japan, and they were selling these super expensive placenta beauty drinks. They were supposedly anti-aging.

If I don't think about it, I don't find it too strange. I mean, I swallow my own saliva. And if accidentally bite my tongue or something, I'd swallow some of my own blood. Whatever. Something solid is just the next step.

776cf39df980711e80fc02317eb64649

(892)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Yup, here's the link: http://www.nihon-sofuken.co.jp/english/index.php

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 02:11 AM

I think this answers my question, or at least causes me to reframe my assumptions that led to the question in the first place. We haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in the west. Which kind of brings me back to my thoughts about the radical shift in religions in the west 3000-5000 years ago. Those new religions worked pretty hard to tarnish the reputation of many things female. I'm guessing the desire to chow down on your placenta would have been discouraged, along with all the other desires women weren't supposed to have, one of which led to the invention of female circumcision.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 02:07 AM

I think this kind of answers my question, or at least causes me to reframe my assumptions that led to the question in the first place. So, we haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in the west. Which kind of brings me back to my thoughts about the radical shift in religions in the west 3000-5000 years ago. Those new religions worked pretty hard to tarnish the reputation of many things female. I'm guessing the desire to chow down on your placenta would have been discouraged, along with all the other desires women weren't supposed to have leading to the invention of female circumcision.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I think is kind of answers my question that we haven't as humans lost interest in it, just in western cultures.

11
Medium avatar

(19479)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:39 PM

I think there should be some kind of badge system for things like this.

1,000,000 points for Placentaphagy.

500,000 points for killing/butchering a wild animal with your bare hands (more or less depending on the size/viciousness of the animal)

250,000 for fecal transplantation (not to be confused with fecalphagy)

And so on.

345c1755efe005edd162b770dc6fb821

(8767)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:17 PM

grossing me out now!

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:53 PM

In my mind, killing/butchering a wild animal is not worth half the points of eating a placenta. I would gladly kill/butcher all of my own meat if I had the skills and resources (and in fact am taking steps to do so in the near future). I would not gladly eat a placenta any time soon.

9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on July 12, 2011
at 07:29 PM

OK NO POINTS FOR THAT LAST ONE.. that one did put me off my food.. (had to google it)

9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on July 12, 2011
at 07:28 PM

ok you should get no points for that last one.. that DID

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:10 PM

This is a contest I don't really want to win.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on July 12, 2011
at 09:02 PM

Lol! Nice comments! I think I'll leave this thread alone now :)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:04 PM

I have helped gut an elk and countless fowl. The birds are much worse to me for some reason - and much more vicious. 500K for ME!!!!!!! The placenta and feces are so repulsive to me though that now I think I may be 750K in the hole :(

5
9759643ce5d97ab8fa649ae954656c4c

on July 12, 2011
at 07:06 PM

I think it's a different story for every culture, but religion and superstition played a big role, to be sure. In some cultures it's still a tradition to bury the placenta near the bedpost or use it to perform other symbolic rituals for protection.

We made up rules and religious laws, some of them may have been regional or specific to a certain time or environment, many of them we should have left behind long ago. But because of organized religion we've kept them with us and dragged that non-sense all over the globe, wiping out thousands of years of medicinal and culinary traditions in its wake. It's hard to know exactly when or why certain traditional or "instinctual" practices were left behind. In Europe and later America, the midwives were burned along side "witches" and a lot of knowledge was lost (or hidden, effectively lost as a result of taboo) as a result.

There's quite a lot of anecdotal evidence within the midwife and doula communities that placenta relieves post-partum depression and other PP imbalances. I know many people who have eaten their placenta with positive results. The placenta is extremely high in prostaglandin, which helps the uterus return to normal size. It also has oxytocin which, according to wikipedia, eases birth stress and causes the smooth muscles around the mammary cells to contract and eject milk.

Good for you for experimenting with it yourself and spreading the word about your own positive experience!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:48 PM

I'm pretty sure I would have been set on fire many times over by now. Glad to be alive in a time when that isn't at the top of my list of worries. My mind buzzes with conspiracy theories about the need to keep women in a slightly weakened state and in their place whenever I run across visceral negative responses from male doctors about this. All I know is that I felt like a super hero for a few months after my placenta pill experience. I can understand how that strength could be intimidating.

9759643ce5d97ab8fa649ae954656c4c

(3325)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:30 PM

I really wish I ate mine. I had pretty debilitating PPD after the birth of my first child (9 years ago) and mild PPD after my second (6 years ago). Both of their placentas very graciously fertilized my garden boxes and nourished the food we grow. It wasn't until about 5 years ago when I met a doula who told me about the method that you used--making pills and ingesting it slowly as medicine--that I really understood the healing potential.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:04 AM

I have kind of a gut feeling that this probably went by the wayside when god changed gender. There are so many negative memes in modern society around pregnancy and birth, I can't help but feel they are a holdover from when the sun gods came rolling into town. Its in even in the root of our language, when I was trying to learn French to help us remember the gender of words our teacher told us that if it was unpleasant you could be pretty sure it was feminine.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 01:01 AM

I have kind of a gut feeling that this probably went by the wayside when god changed gender. There are so many negative memes in modern society around pregnancy and birth, I can't help but feel they are a holdover from when the sun gods came rolling into town.

4
9fb615132bfea7d96977a21665e2ae5d

on July 12, 2011
at 07:21 PM

that is a very good question!! I personally don't see a problem with it, I breed dogs and they don't produce milk until they have eaten a few placentas.. it also helps with the womb lining come away and helps the uterus shrink back down to normal size.. along with hormones that calm the mother and therefore calm baby, and help with post natal depression..

I think we live in a culture no longer accepts things like this.. but a lot of cultures around the world still have ceremonies celebrating the placenta as the life giving source that it is.. it is also a very good source of nutrients for mum and baby.. making for better colostrum and milk..

4
Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:32 PM

I don't know the definitive answer, but I can think of some individual factors which may have played a role;

-Self-cannibalism/cannibalism taboo. Cannibalistic rituals have largely died out since their pre-historic heyday, although some cultural vestiges still remain e.g. Communion.

-A food rich environment, (hence no evident need for placentaphagy) combined with the modern concept of sterility, especially in conjunction with an awareness about blood-borne pathogens.

Some things that we feel are instintual (or claim to be so) are more closely linked to our environment and conditioning then we often want to admit.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Sorry if I wasn't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:34 PM

It is interesting that you mention communion because the placenta pills are taken with a small amount of wine, and about 3 days into it, I was sitting there will my little placenta pills and apartif glass of wine, and hit with this flash of, "This is where communion came from!!!" Most Christian rituals seem to have been appropriated at some point or another from earlier religion or cultures that were converted.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Sorry if I wan't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:28 PM

In a lot of my research on this I keep seeing "awareness of blood borne pathogens" as being a reason for why people wouldn't want to do this, but I was under the impression that you can't make yourself sick from your own blood.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 03:28 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Sorry if I wans't clear; I didn't mean that there is any specific medical hazard to consuming your own blood, I was referring to how more general cultural taboos arise and are influenced.

2
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on July 13, 2011
at 01:52 PM

Found on the internet. I remember reading about this one. SNL did this piece on it. Karen Black hosted SNL on October 16, 1976, and January 17, 1981. I've yet to see either epsisode. If the skit aired, chances are that it was on the earlier show. Has anyone taped it?

The sketch was written for Gilda, Laraine Newman, and John Belushi.

"the new parents were concerned that there wasn't going to be enough placenta to go around, thus the placenta helper

Here are a few lines from the script (bear in mind, these often changed between read-through and the live show):

LARAINE: ...By the way, are you planning to eat the placenta?

GILDA: You're kidding! You mean the afterbirth?

LARAINE: That's right. Many mammals eat their own placenta. It's nutritious, it's 100 percent natural, and now that you're going to have a family, you've got to watch your food budget more than ever. And there's no cheaper meat than placenta.

GILDA: But is there enough placenta to make a complete meal for my husband and myself?

LARAINE: Not if your husband has a hearty appetite like mine. And that's why you need Placenta Helper.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 13, 2011
at 05:30 PM

Ha! I love it! Good find.

2
34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:28 PM

I have to say - I just had lunch and reading this brought on a wave of nausea. For me, this is right up there with "fecal transplant". It's awesome that it worked great for you and you believe it to be a great thing to do. Honestly don't think I'm hippy enough to stomach that =)

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:56 PM

All things placenta related felt really intimate to me, and I only wanted it and even I can't get on board with not warning people it that is the kind of dinner party you are throwing. For some reason the Tom Cruise placenta chili thing pissed me off, if only because he was stealing the healing potential from his wife.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Ooops, sorry for posting this at lunch time.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 08:06 PM

They really should have warned you. All things placenta seemed really intimate to me, I personally couldn't have pulled off a cocktail party right after having my baby, much less a guerilla placentaphagy one. Until it was completely processed and in the capsules I only wanted myself, my husband, my midwife, and my doula to handle it.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:42 PM

I'm with Heather on this one. When I first moved to Berkeley I was invited to a home for what I thought was just a cocktail party. Oh no. It was some ceremony where the parents ate the placenta of their newborn while we all watched. This Southern Belle nearly lost it. Someone should have at least warned me.

0
Ff5d6fd79983af7b92bfab38b71823fb

(290)

on May 25, 2012
at 08:43 PM

With my oldest, soup with miso was made for me out of it. I was vegetarian, and the placenta was deathless meat. I felt stronger after eating it than I had in ages. With my third, we were very poor when she was born, so the placenta was fed to the dogs.

0
1bc18852894dad9d6dddfb3dfed49ab3

(341)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:24 PM

How did you eat it, raw or cooked?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:24 PM

My doula used the TCM method of steaming it with heating herbs, drying it out, and then grinding it up into a powder. I'm glad not every society went through a phase of setting their herbalists on fire.

-2
9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

on July 12, 2011
at 06:38 PM

I've seen this all over around the internet. The need to eat the placenta was to remove any trace or smell of blood which would attract predators to the newly birthed babies and weakened mother.

In our society, there's no need to eat the thing. I don't think I'd ask to get it from a doctor, and I wouldn't go out of my way to save it in a home-birth.

This is similar to asking "Why don't you eat your menstrual fluid?"

9759643ce5d97ab8fa649ae954656c4c

(3325)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Nature is infinitely more complex than this. Sure, keeping predators away may have been at the root of our instinct to eat the placenta in the first place. Often there is more than one benefit. In this case there are chemical and nutritional benefits, as well.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 12, 2011
at 07:21 PM

I looked into the removing the scent of birth theory, but it doesn't hold up for me because there are so many other scents and fluids you end up with after a birth (again my apologies for those eating lunch), that the mama has no interest in ingesting/cleaning up. I know there may be no "nutritional" need to eat the things, but I found there to be profound hormonal reasons to do so.

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