4

votes

Evidence that plant proteins are "toxic"?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 25, 2013 at 3:44 PM

I've been taking a protein supplement called "Sun Warrior" lately, in place of the standard whey protein shakes that I had been drinking before. The source of protein is brown rice. It's labeled as "natural, gluten-free, dairy-free, non-gmo, and hyo-allergenic.

For something to be toxic, doesn't it need to illicit an immune response? How can something that's hypo-allergenic be toxic and what evidence is that that plant proteins are actually so?

Thanks in advance.

Medium avatar

(20)

on July 08, 2014
at 02:03 AM

All of the studies finding red meat to be harmful seemed to be flawed. There are many who eat an all meat diet; red meat - including pork, lamb, chicken, fish and the like with zero intake coming from the plants and have excellent overall health and markers.

As far as 'manufactured food' goes, product labeling that have the words, "natural, gluten-free, dairy-free, non-gmo, and hypo-allergenic" have little meaning in light of the rigorous processing and de-naturing they go through to get that colorful warm and fuzzy label at the end before they are perched on the store shelf.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on July 07, 2014
at 08:57 PM

+1 go omnivore, for the win! It certainly boggles the mind how the very idea of veganism or vegetarianism is not something we find in nature, but rather a form of Lysenkoism applied to humans misguidedly by false ideology.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on July 07, 2014
at 07:46 PM

You can avoid the problem of having to be an intelligent vegetarian by being a dumb omnivorous human and eating meat with your potatoes.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on May 25, 2013
at 06:45 PM

Hypo-allergenic doesn't mean not allergenic. Also they could just say hypo-allergenic, often supplements can make stuff up because they have a low risk of being taken to task for it. But I doubt your rice protein is by any stretch toxic to most people.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:41 PM

Why do you think most vegan men look and act like bitches?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:40 PM

If you have less cholesterol then you should have less pregnenolone. Less Pregnenolone means less of like every hormone, see chart: http://biohealthlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/shpp.png . Vince Gironda was one of the first bodybuilders, he trained Arnold once he came to America. He had something called "The Hormone Precursor Diet" which was filled with cholesterol rich foods. But I refuse to believe that a little protein powder is going to downregulate your testosterone to a significant degree. Although given an INadequate diet and over time, yes it probably could.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:15 PM

Nah, it just means less protein synthesis, it only could possibly mean less fat oxidation and down regulated steroid hormone production to the degree that it results in loss of muscle mass from inadequate protein. Besides, there are different sources of plant proteins, some of which when combined make complete proteins and while no plant protein I'm aware of can beat meat as a source of protein I don't see how with a well rounded diet some plant protein would have a significantly detrimental effect on either hormone production or fat oxidation.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:58 PM

Lol dude, I seem to recall somewhere in Minger's (I think) critique of the China Study she actually showed plant protein but not animal protein was associated with some sort of malady in some Asian country (probably China). IMO people in developing countries with higher plant protein consumption do so because that's their only option (lower class) and will TF already have a higher prevalence of different diseases. But that's the only time I've actually heard epidemiological evidence showing that plant proteins could be bad that I'm remembering. I'm more concerned about heavy metals though.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:57 PM

Stephen if you see this please comment on the implications of thhq's link? does it mean both less fat oxidation and down regulated steroid hormone production?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:55 PM

From teh link -"...cyclic-AMP down-regulates the synthesis of a number of enzymes required for de novo lipogenesis and cholesterol synthesis" ...Does this mean that it can also reduce steroid hormone production? That's not toxic but a bad thing for meat heads, so someone please comment if that is a logical conclusion? Ahem, Stephen cough cough.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:49 PM

lol. I agree with the amino acid is an amino acid statement, which is why I don't buy that "plant proteins are toxic" (even PHD talks about this, which makes me think it can't be just dogma, but I don't know of any actual evidence suggesting it's not). And, if you must know, my formerly pseudo-vegan-girlfriend has a tub of it at my apartment, and I've commandeered for myself while she's out of the country :)

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:37 PM

Yea, Arsenic and Cadmium in rice. Maybe I'm wrong but an amino acid seems like an amino acid to me, if they are toxic I don't see it being anything dramatic considering it makes such an insignificant portion of your diet. I do have to give you shit though just because when I googled Sun Warrior Protein Powder I found their site where they claimed to be the best vegan protein powder on the market and I didn't realize you had a Vagina. Their ad looks pretty cool though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-EV7tLaqG6c .

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:17 PM

Right I did think about that. Like arsenic in rice, or mercury in tuna. But then it's really saying that heavy metals contanimating plants are toxic, not that plant proteins themselves are.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:13 PM

"How can something that's hypo-allergenic be toxic?" It could have heavy metals in it.

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2 Answers

3
Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:09 PM

Here's something to kick off the discussion, though it doesn't directly address your question. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16201743/

My takeaways are that plant proteins don't favor protein synthesis, but on the other hand might impart some CV health benefits. Which might construed to be antiinflammatory effects, but this is probably stretching.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:41 PM

Why do you think most vegan men look and act like bitches?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2013
at 04:55 PM

From teh link -"...cyclic-AMP down-regulates the synthesis of a number of enzymes required for de novo lipogenesis and cholesterol synthesis" ...Does this mean that it can also reduce steroid hormone production? That's not toxic but a bad thing for meat heads, so someone please comment if that is a logical conclusion? Ahem, Stephen cough cough.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:40 PM

If you have less cholesterol then you should have less pregnenolone. Less Pregnenolone means less of like every hormone, see chart: http://biohealthlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/shpp.png . Vince Gironda was one of the first bodybuilders, he trained Arnold once he came to America. He had something called "The Hormone Precursor Diet" which was filled with cholesterol rich foods. But I refuse to believe that a little protein powder is going to downregulate your testosterone to a significant degree. Although given an INadequate diet and over time, yes it probably could.

0
002981cd1d579c30a4d2a63e5230954f

on July 07, 2014
at 06:56 PM

I have not seen any evidence that plant proteins, as a class of dietary materials are generally toxic. The main point in the article cited above, is that when you eat animal protein, you are guaranteed to have the twenty amino acids (protein building blocks) necessary for making a mammal, like us. Of course, recent research makes it clear that other components ingested when eating animals, especially red meats, can have not-so-healthy consequences as well.

If you decide to go the vegetarian route, then you have to use your knowledge of proteins and amino acids to manage your diet to get all the amino acids necessary for proper protein maintenance of the body. Don't get me wrong, there are many amino acids, some dangerous; it's just the essential twenty that are required for the body to assemble it's own proper proteins.

In the starting post, there seems to be some confusion about toxicity and allergy. Materials that elicit a toxic response have some component that interferes with a physiological pathway. When one ingests the root of a pokeweed plant, a toxic lectin causes red blood cells to stick together, not a good plan for us mammals. But the immunosystem is not involved to any great extent. When one eats oleander, the cardiac glycosides cause the heart to change its activity. These are toxins.

The immunosytem is mostly looking for foreign proteins, specifically referred to as allergens. When a person allergic to peanuts eats one, its the immunosystem that goes after this allergen, and in such a powerful way that the inflammation response is over-played.

When one allergic to poison ivy gets exposed to urushiol, the urushiol actually attaches itself to proteins in the skin. With the urushiol attached, these skin proteins are no longer shaped the same way they are in the unexposed skin. Since the immunosystem can no longer recognize these human proteins, they are seen as 'foreign'. The body's own immunosystem then, seeing them as enemy proteins goes off and attacks the person's own skin, with the resulting oozing wounds and itching.

The article cited above goes on to say that if a person chooses the proteins from plants wisely, they offer some side benefits as well. Many vegetarians eat traditional grains to get the protein levels they need. But, if by grains you mean the grass family seeds upon our species now depends, you will be several (~6) amino acids short for healthy human proteins. A smart vegetarian supplements these traditional grains with Amaranth and some other solutions that round out the quantity of short-supply amino acids necessary.

Thanks for reading.

Medium avatar

(20)

on July 08, 2014
at 02:03 AM

All of the studies finding red meat to be harmful seemed to be flawed. There are many who eat an all meat diet; red meat - including pork, lamb, chicken, fish and the like with zero intake coming from the plants and have excellent overall health and markers.

As far as 'manufactured food' goes, product labeling that have the words, "natural, gluten-free, dairy-free, non-gmo, and hypo-allergenic" have little meaning in light of the rigorous processing and de-naturing they go through to get that colorful warm and fuzzy label at the end before they are perched on the store shelf.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on July 07, 2014
at 07:46 PM

You can avoid the problem of having to be an intelligent vegetarian by being a dumb omnivorous human and eating meat with your potatoes.

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