2

votes

Hack my friend's Kibble-fed dog and her aversion to meat.

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 16, 2012 at 9:01 PM

This dog simply will not eat meat. Raw or cooked. I was eating some gooseberries I found growing and she seemed VERY interested in that, but when I tossed her some raw chicken instead, she chewed it up and spit it back out. Strangely enough, it seems to enjoy gnawing on chicken bones.

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 17, 2012
at 05:08 PM

We also use rodentpro - it was definitely the best source we could find, especially since they won't touch petburger, and local stores were way overpriced.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 05:35 AM

We use rodentpro for our prey. Where do you get yours?

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:58 AM

Absolutely, it is a huge difference in the litter box too! The coat is the craziest change because we ran out of our stock of frozen prey once when we still just had the older kitten, and he had only Primal brand kibble for 6 days and his coat became super dull.. a day after he got back on raw whole prey, it went back to normal, it was insane.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:13 AM

Prey model :-) absolutely the best!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:13 AM

I have to disagree with you. I have switched thousands of dogs, of all different breeds, to a raw diet over the years in my rescue and I find the best way to do this (with the least risk of stomach upset/diarrhea) is to fast them and then switch. I never mix raw with cooked food as they digest at different rates. I also only give chicken wings for the first two weeks until the pancreas can start producing enzymes (see my other posts for more about this).

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:09 AM

And I bet the litter box doesn't smell :-)

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:09 AM

Actually, a young dog who has been eating raw can handle a cooked bone. Dogs have the unique ability to regulate their pancreatic enzymes. Other carnivores, like cats, which are obligate carnivores, have their pancreatic enzymes permanently set on high. A dog fed kibble all its life is producing very little in the way of pancreatic enzymes and you must give the dog's body some time to catch up. That said, once the pancreatic juices are flowing, even a cooked bone poses no challenge. Meech, the wolf biologist cites a lot of studies done on dogs when talking about wolves, and it is good reading

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 17, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Smiles...Newbies need to start slowly and the less complex the process, the more likely they'll stick with it. I'm considered a "guru" in the raw world, hence I was one of the reviewers for the first publisher she contacted. She was turned down due to the massive inconsistencies and scientific gaps in her book, and I was not the only reviewer with this opinion. Oh, and guess who gave Chris his first primer on feeding his Pit Bull raw?

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:14 AM

Yes, organ meat needs to be added slowly. Marie, I gave a few pointers. Anyone interested in going raw needs to do their research and pick which framework sounds right to them. I've been doing this for years too. There's much to be learned for the newbie.

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 17, 2012
at 12:13 AM

Not my dog so I can't chuck the kibble. That's why I tried feeding it some free range chicken. Figured it would be light years better than what it's getting fed at home.

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:12 AM

Fast is unnecessary. If it were a problem, I'd be seeing it my clients' dogs as they feed kibble and I use fresh food to day train. My first-hand experience tells me it's fine.

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:10 AM

I find her recommended diet the best out there in raw. We'll have to agree to disagree.

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:09 AM

You can feed boneless fresh food with the kibble. You don't feed the boney meal with kibble. I don't find any conflict of interest in her owning a list and offering supplements. I know some Paleo folks who offer Paleo frameworks and supplements. I appreciate their nutrition knowledge and forego their supplements. I can, if I wish, buy supplements elsewhere. I don't care for the prey model at all. I waiver back and forth on dairy for humans and dogs. Listening to Chris Kresser keeps me wanting to keep fermented dairy in.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Chuck the kibble and go Prey Model Raw.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:24 PM

And w/r/t your recommendation to feed kibble while feeding raw, that is not recommended due to the time kibble spends in the GI due to the amount of plant products included in most kibble. Experienced raw feeders use a 24 hour fast prior to beginning 100% raw. Then once Raw Meaty Bones are accepted, organ meat is added slowly due to its richness and the owner's potential issues with runny feces.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:20 PM

Sandra, I was one of the original reviewers for Lew's book and was disgusted by the multiple conflicts of interest inherent in her business strategy. She pushes her own supplement business as a solution to her poor nutritional diet and states that carbs are healthy. As a raw feeder since 2002, I have used multiple recipes and have found Prey Model Raw to be the most beneficial AND the easiest strategy to maintain canine and feline nutritional needs. With GreenTripe.com products, both the organ blends and mineral supplementation are taken care of in a yummy more natural form than dairy.

782d92f4127823bdfb2ddfcbcf961d0e

(5231)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:03 PM

be careful with the chicken bones. They can splinter and if swallowed then bad news!

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

I'm hoping that the dog "outgrows" this kibble phase because it's already sort of a fat dog even though it's got a good deal of energy and is constantly moving.

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Yes, they're raw. I need those cooked ones for my 2nd batch of broth! :P

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:12 PM

I thought I owned the only dog that wouldn't eat liver. Guess not!

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:03 PM

doesn't it know fructose is toxic? OMG it's going to get diabetes. Poor thing.

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7 Answers

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0
6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 16, 2012
at 09:52 PM

If you don't offer the kibble and only offer fried hamburg (boiled chicken breast meat) to begin with, the dog will eat. Then of course, you must make sure the dog's diet includes calcium. Meat alone is not sufficient. Calcium can be in the form of bones (ie, raw chicken wings, raw chicken necks) or adding 1 tsp of dried crushed egg shell for every pound of meat. Feed one meaty meal (no bone/calcium) and one boney meal (with bone or calcium) per day. One must also feed organ meat (kidney, liver). Heart is muscle meat as is gizzard, hamburg, ground chicken, ground turkey. So try sauteeing the ground boneless muscle meats and organs. Mix in a little garlic (1 clove to one pound of meat) to enhance flavor. Or add natural broth to the mix.

Or start by adding other fresh foods to the (reduced) daily kibble portion, ie hard boiled egg, cottage cheese, yogurt and fried egg, canned jack mackeral or salmon. The dog can have up to 1/2 kibble ration along with 1/2 fresh foods per day without interferring with vitamin/mineral requirements. So one meal is kibble the other meal is fresh foods, ie jack mack with cottage cheese, or yogurt and 2 eggs... Add the organ meat here. Slowly decrease the amount of searing of muscle meat you do.

For a Yahoo list on feeding raw, see K9 Nutrition by Lew Olson and/or purchase her book on Amazon.com.

HTH to point her in the right direction.

Sandra...raw feeder of 8 yrs, dog behavior consultant/trainer, Paleo girl

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:14 AM

Yes, organ meat needs to be added slowly. Marie, I gave a few pointers. Anyone interested in going raw needs to do their research and pick which framework sounds right to them. I've been doing this for years too. There's much to be learned for the newbie.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:20 PM

Sandra, I was one of the original reviewers for Lew's book and was disgusted by the multiple conflicts of interest inherent in her business strategy. She pushes her own supplement business as a solution to her poor nutritional diet and states that carbs are healthy. As a raw feeder since 2002, I have used multiple recipes and have found Prey Model Raw to be the most beneficial AND the easiest strategy to maintain canine and feline nutritional needs. With GreenTripe.com products, both the organ blends and mineral supplementation are taken care of in a yummy more natural form than dairy.

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:09 AM

You can feed boneless fresh food with the kibble. You don't feed the boney meal with kibble. I don't find any conflict of interest in her owning a list and offering supplements. I know some Paleo folks who offer Paleo frameworks and supplements. I appreciate their nutrition knowledge and forego their supplements. I can, if I wish, buy supplements elsewhere. I don't care for the prey model at all. I waiver back and forth on dairy for humans and dogs. Listening to Chris Kresser keeps me wanting to keep fermented dairy in.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 17, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Smiles...Newbies need to start slowly and the less complex the process, the more likely they'll stick with it. I'm considered a "guru" in the raw world, hence I was one of the reviewers for the first publisher she contacted. She was turned down due to the massive inconsistencies and scientific gaps in her book, and I was not the only reviewer with this opinion. Oh, and guess who gave Chris his first primer on feeding his Pit Bull raw?

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:10 AM

I find her recommended diet the best out there in raw. We'll have to agree to disagree.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:13 AM

I have to disagree with you. I have switched thousands of dogs, of all different breeds, to a raw diet over the years in my rescue and I find the best way to do this (with the least risk of stomach upset/diarrhea) is to fast them and then switch. I never mix raw with cooked food as they digest at different rates. I also only give chicken wings for the first two weeks until the pancreas can start producing enzymes (see my other posts for more about this).

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:24 PM

And w/r/t your recommendation to feed kibble while feeding raw, that is not recommended due to the time kibble spends in the GI due to the amount of plant products included in most kibble. Experienced raw feeders use a 24 hour fast prior to beginning 100% raw. Then once Raw Meaty Bones are accepted, organ meat is added slowly due to its richness and the owner's potential issues with runny feces.

6e37f170409bc1b100c880c57508c5fd

on June 17, 2012
at 12:12 AM

Fast is unnecessary. If it were a problem, I'd be seeing it my clients' dogs as they feed kibble and I use fresh food to day train. My first-hand experience tells me it's fine.

5
Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:07 PM

It is very common for kibble fed dogs to throw up their first taste of good food. Don't worry about it. They usually go back to it, if the panicking owners don't pick it up first. And I hope the chicken bones you're giving her are raw - NEVER FEED COOKED BONES as they can splinter.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 16, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Chuck the kibble and go Prey Model Raw.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:13 AM

Prey model :-) absolutely the best!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:09 AM

Actually, a young dog who has been eating raw can handle a cooked bone. Dogs have the unique ability to regulate their pancreatic enzymes. Other carnivores, like cats, which are obligate carnivores, have their pancreatic enzymes permanently set on high. A dog fed kibble all its life is producing very little in the way of pancreatic enzymes and you must give the dog's body some time to catch up. That said, once the pancreatic juices are flowing, even a cooked bone poses no challenge. Meech, the wolf biologist cites a lot of studies done on dogs when talking about wolves, and it is good reading

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

I'm hoping that the dog "outgrows" this kibble phase because it's already sort of a fat dog even though it's got a good deal of energy and is constantly moving.

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 16, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Yes, they're raw. I need those cooked ones for my 2nd batch of broth! :P

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on June 17, 2012
at 12:13 AM

Not my dog so I can't chuck the kibble. That's why I tried feeding it some free range chicken. Figured it would be light years better than what it's getting fed at home.

3
03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

on June 17, 2012
at 02:04 AM

I have fed raw exclusively for 12 years to every dog that has ever come into my rescue. I have never had one have a problem switching, but I fast them for 24-48 hours to get all the kibble out of their system, then I offer raw meaty bones. Sometimes I will heat the meat to body temperature, and if they don't like it, it goes to someone else and we try again tomorrow. The longest I have had a dog hold out was a Finnish Spitz that was fed mainly wonder bread. She lasted 8 days before switching.

Meat is very little like prey, to a dog, if it is not heated to body temperature and not moving around.

Also, chicken, while very digestible, lacks the nutrients in red meats. I bet the dog would eat steak ;-)

1
D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on June 17, 2012
at 06:36 AM

It took me a few weeks to get my dog happy eating raw. At first I had to ribbon the chicken meat on the bone - I read that tip on a raw feeding listserv, and thank goodness for those people. There's a learning curve for a dog too, you know. They basically grow up on SAD food-for-dogs - junk food - and they're not always keen to eat the more wholesome stuff!

I feed prey model raw now. My sissified dog went from nibbling at a chicken quarter to wolfing anything I toss her. Give the dog time, and space, and some variety!

1
41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on June 17, 2012
at 02:41 AM

Try something other than raw chicken. I have a dog who hates the heck out of raw chicken and wouldn't eat it if I paid him, but will eat beef, fish, buffalo, etc. without a problem.

1
363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 17, 2012
at 01:17 AM

We rescued two kittens this past year, one in January and one in April. We knew we wanted to switch them from kibble and wet food to a raw diet, but we introduced the raw diet to the first kitten when he was 4 months old, and the first time we offered him a raw pinkie mouse, he was scared to death of it. (We even tried tying a string to it to make it wiggle to make him more interested, but it did the opposite!!) But each day got better. We introduced the raw mice to our second kitten when she was just under 2 months, right after we adopted her, and she went nuts for them right away. I think being younger led to her having more of a wild side and digging right in, practically swallowing them whole. Now they eat whole mice, baby rats and hatchling quails without a blink of an eye. So I think the age of the animal and the willingness to try new things is correlated. I love how soft it has made their coats and how they don't have kibble breath!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 05:35 AM

We use rodentpro for our prey. Where do you get yours?

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:09 AM

And I bet the litter box doesn't smell :-)

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 17, 2012
at 02:58 AM

Absolutely, it is a huge difference in the litter box too! The coat is the craziest change because we ran out of our stock of frozen prey once when we still just had the older kitten, and he had only Primal brand kibble for 6 days and his coat became super dull.. a day after he got back on raw whole prey, it went back to normal, it was insane.

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 17, 2012
at 05:08 PM

We also use rodentpro - it was definitely the best source we could find, especially since they won't touch petburger, and local stores were way overpriced.

0
19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on June 17, 2012
at 03:31 AM

(OOPS. She! ^^ )

Okay, I assume this dog has kibble on his bowl day and night?

Stop doing that, feed him two or three times a day, and always get rid of leftovers as soon as he's done eating.

Then move to canned food. Yeah, there's canned food for dogs too.

Then warm up the canned food on a bowl of hot water. Warm up some beef marrow. Dump some marrow over the canned food.

Then try warm beef (not cooked, just warm like a baby bottle) with egg on top. (hmmm!!!)

If that doesn't work... take the dog out to go hunting. Let him kill his prey and eat it. After that I'm sure he'll recover his taste in meat >:-D

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