7

votes

What do you think about "The State of the Paleosphere?"

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 08, 2012 at 5:55 AM

What do you think about the blog post "The State of the Paleosphere?"

Saw this link on Jimmy Moore's forum-

"The State of the Paleosphere"

There is a lot of clique-making and I???m-taking-my-toys-and-going-home going on. I???ve been amazed at how some of the folks who are doctors or researchers can devolve into personal barbs, and quick. Aren???t they the ones who are supposed to understand how to disagree respectfully with evidence? To say, ???That???s an interesting observation, but my research shows?????? instead of accusations? Or, ???I???ve read that study you cited there, and I can???t find that reference.??? And then us amateurs get in there without understanding the whole picture, and the whole thing gets all mucked up...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 19, 2012
at 10:31 PM

"it's not possible, which is perfectly illustrated by Nora G dismissing me for being too young" - I know for a fact that is wrong. Nora G. wasn't referring to Melissa and she took whatever she read into the blog post out of context and too personally. She never even responded to Melissa. Sheesh, this is so high school. See how things get started?

408b32d0900853851167089d730f1881

on March 09, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Yes. THIS. Maybe it's because as I grow older, I'm increasingly weary by those who would encourage us to 'just all get along, please'. I want to cut to the chase already. I don't want people to stifle what they think or how they feel out of fear of 'offending' someone else. Should they be respectful? Yep. Avoid personal attacks and/or getting down into the mud as the first volley? If that's possible. But I'd rather have real & genuine than nicey-nice, any day of the week. I'm a big girl - I can handle the tussling.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 09, 2012
at 07:40 PM

Karen, I hope you do these periodically. It would be cool to track the tone of paleo over time.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 09, 2012
at 04:55 PM

Actually, I think the universe is a giant piece of bacon...

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 09, 2012
at 04:20 PM

I think Jimmy is spot on

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 09, 2012
at 02:34 PM

Yes, and why should it be a sphere? Couldn't it be a paleo-trapezoid, or a paleo-rhombus, or maybe bison shaped? :)

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 10:45 PM

@ Karen. Well even though I disgree with you I wish you well.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:28 PM

...that til the cows come home. I personally feel that throughout my education, I've been learning as much from negative examples as positive ones, so whatever info is out there just serves to help me figure out where I stand. We share a lot in common so I'm a bit confused why this one issue is causing you to make me a target. I highly doubt that any back-and-forth via internet will help us understand each other any better, but I'm feeling a bit thrown out with the bathwater.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:25 PM

Melissa, I agree with your take on Kruse and I'm concerned about it too. I don't agree with Nora also resorting to something ridiculous in response to you. And as for me "excusing" Jimmy, I only mean it in a cost/benefit kind of way. He's only been Paleo for 7 months, and by his accounting, it doesn't seem to be helping him meet his goals. So why should he reverse his stance yet? And the reason I brought up the sheriff comment (had Bill Cosby in mind, btw) was you've been quite exasperated at the choice of conference speakers as though they don't deserve to be there. I guess we can debate...

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:18 PM

I would just like to see my real space friends repeat the experiment that brought us success, not the one that didn't. I imagine, especially here at paleohacks, you'd probably "don't be silly" a newcomer into doing something that looks far more like the latter than the former. I can't understand your reference to competition, as it seems to have been taken out of the context I used it in- athletes, who care more about shaving seconds of their fran time, and can't understand other people are so lazy.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:07 PM

@Bacon, I was torn about posting at all. I realized some might see it that way.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 08, 2012
at 09:39 PM

The "Paleosphere" is mostly just a bunch of opinionated individuals who think everyone else needs to know about their opinions :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 08, 2012
at 09:38 PM

The "Paleosphere" is mostly just a bunch of opinionated individuals who think everyone else should know about there opinions :)

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 08, 2012
at 08:03 PM

Religion and evolution are kind of irrelevant to discussions of lifestyle and diet strategy, but the moment science comes up then it is an important consideration whether someone believes in evolution or that the earth is 6000 years old. You have to beat the crap out of bad science or it just spreads. If “believing in evolution” is “elitism” that just means bad science is winning. Whether Jack Kruse has good diet strategies or not, much of his “science” is buffoonery. If the Paleosphere is supposed to just sit back and smile politely at the buffoonery science, I would rather it just go away.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Karen. I appreciate your view but you cannot control this...why are you trying?

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 07:51 PM

@Dave. It's right next to the pastured eggs then turn the corner to the coconut butter and dark chocolate.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 08, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I personally don't think I ever said LC didn't have a therapeutic value. I think the idea that this means they are the optimal for everyone and everything is questionable. In fact, it seems quite bad for some people, so it's certainly not about just some competition. Lots of LCers and LC-ish folks in academia like Jeff Volek and Miki Ben Dor.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 07:31 PM

Ahhh ha ha ha. Yes I love that too.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:22 PM

+1 for awesome anarchy. I agree. Having been in both the Army and a large corporation, I've learned the danger of unhealthy agreement. In this environment, anarchy is both interesting and healthy.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:39 PM

This is all very interesting, but maybe it's not a big deal to define who owns paleo, and who to listen to? Everybody has their own ways of doing things. Melissa is a feisty anthro/paleo blogger, Quilt offers up his unified theory of health, Taubes champions insulin at all times, etc etc. Part of the reason I chose to pursue the sciences instead of the more liberal arts is that it doesn't involve as many opinions of how things should be and how people may or may not act. I love me some paleo gossip though :)

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:36 PM

Good comments. The easiest thing to fix is the ad homs. People should just stop it. I watched a few busy members on here that only seem to respond to some topics with ad homs about the person in the topic. ex- "What about this article?" "Isn't that guy fat? Who cares what he says!"

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:33 PM

I think my favorite post ever is "Don Matesz stumped by Tim the Enchanter". It makes me laugh so hard, I must have read it, like, 10 times. http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/12/13/don-matesz-stumped-by-tim-the-enchanter.html

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:18 PM

Where is the paleosphere and how can I get there?

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 04:50 PM

“Time spent arguing is, oddly enough, almost never wasted.” -Christopher Hitchens

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 04:48 PM

Melissa. From now on I will refer to you as my little "dustkicker."

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 04:31 PM

So well said Asclepius.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 08, 2012
at 04:02 PM

The web has given rise to 'trolling' - enough said! Ad homs are inevitable with anonymity. In some ways you have to be brave to stick your head above the intellectual parapet these days, 'Show me the study' is the first card everyone plays in the paleosphere and nutrition is so awash with crappy science that it isn't enough to cherry-pick your evidence, you need to produce a quality study. I often feel that the interventions are often so short or blighted by confounders that they barely seem applicable to adaptive biological systems.

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 03:45 PM

Thanks, it was late when I first read it. My bad.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 03:27 PM

It's very true that ad homs are part of life on the web, but it's not that hard to keep them to a minimum and ask others to do the same. I've been here less than 2 weeks and I've seen more than I expected to be honest, most of them directed at Moore. When someone starts arguing the person and not the topic, it's time to comment "cut it out." There are some on this very page. Look above.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 02:59 PM

+1 I have seen people get way the heck off track trying to assemble something coherent out of mountains of published garbage. Garbage in - garbage out.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 08, 2012
at 01:58 PM

Also I find it SO HILARIOUS that she is taking it on herself to declare the state of the Paleosphere when she accused me of trying to "sheriff" the movement.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on March 08, 2012
at 12:20 PM

Psshaw! I know everything, and I have debates with myself all the time!

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 11:34 AM

Edit: added the question since it was hidden in the title. :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on March 08, 2012
at 08:02 AM

Who cares about the Paleosphere?

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:54 AM

"there is no way to have a debate with someone who believes that they already know everything" - good stuff.

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:48 AM

What's the question?

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:37 AM

I don't know, that sounds like any sufficiently large community. Is there something you think is unique about the "paleosphere?"

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11 Answers

16
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 08, 2012
at 06:51 AM

If I wanted to have to go through layers of polite bureaucracy to call someone out on bullshit, I'd stick within academia. But I guess the benefit there is that most of this stuff would never have been published in the first place. I'm not sure she understands that there is no way to have a debate with someone who believes that they already know everything. I'm not interested in debating them (it's not possible, which is perfectly illustrated by Nora G dismissing me for being too young), just in telling laymen who might worship them to be careful.

Considering Karen posted on Free The Animal that Jimmy was excused for selling processed garbage while pushing "real food" because he relies on the income, I have difficulty taking her seriously. It's funny that the "paleosphere" is more than happy to tar and feather the similarly motivated folks at Monsanto. It's a Pollyanna attitude that's nice until she tries to enforce it on everyone else.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 08, 2012
at 01:58 PM

Also I find it SO HILARIOUS that she is taking it on herself to declare the state of the Paleosphere when she accused me of trying to "sheriff" the movement.

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:54 AM

"there is no way to have a debate with someone who believes that they already know everything" - good stuff.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on March 08, 2012
at 12:20 PM

Psshaw! I know everything, and I have debates with myself all the time!

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 04:48 PM

Melissa. From now on I will refer to you as my little "dustkicker."

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:28 PM

...that til the cows come home. I personally feel that throughout my education, I've been learning as much from negative examples as positive ones, so whatever info is out there just serves to help me figure out where I stand. We share a lot in common so I'm a bit confused why this one issue is causing you to make me a target. I highly doubt that any back-and-forth via internet will help us understand each other any better, but I'm feeling a bit thrown out with the bathwater.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:25 PM

Melissa, I agree with your take on Kruse and I'm concerned about it too. I don't agree with Nora also resorting to something ridiculous in response to you. And as for me "excusing" Jimmy, I only mean it in a cost/benefit kind of way. He's only been Paleo for 7 months, and by his accounting, it doesn't seem to be helping him meet his goals. So why should he reverse his stance yet? And the reason I brought up the sheriff comment (had Bill Cosby in mind, btw) was you've been quite exasperated at the choice of conference speakers as though they don't deserve to be there. I guess we can debate...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 19, 2012
at 10:31 PM

"it's not possible, which is perfectly illustrated by Nora G dismissing me for being too young" - I know for a fact that is wrong. Nora G. wasn't referring to Melissa and she took whatever she read into the blog post out of context and too personally. She never even responded to Melissa. Sheesh, this is so high school. See how things get started?

13
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on March 08, 2012
at 12:52 PM

I take issue with the second point about qualifications. I see more and more, let's call them hobbyists, trying to become pillars in the paleosphere. These folks have done no research themselves, but have simply perused through PubMed and the scientific literature and come up with some rather wacky recommendations. They often don't have any formal training in the area, let alone any basic training. Of course then even less knowledgeable folks just lap up these recommendations because of their pseudo-credentials associated with them. But much of it is bullshit, and I guess that's where the paleosphere needs to step in and call out bullshit for what it is. There's already a dearth of solid information in on paleo, diluting the good stuff with bullshit syntheses of random-ass science is not a good thing.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 02:59 PM

+1 I have seen people get way the heck off track trying to assemble something coherent out of mountains of published garbage. Garbage in - garbage out.

12
F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:18 PM

Just to clarify a few things here:

  1. I am pro-discussion. I think the debate is good and will push progress, which is a point I've made anytime the Taubes vs. Guyenet debate comes up.
  2. I'm amazed at the level of intellect in this community, and recognize when I can't hang. My points on this topic are merely observations from the outside.
  3. I will repeat this for anyone who hasn't read my piece: I am not affiliated with anyone and I have no loyalties.

But a few things trouble me.

  1. I cannot condone or participate in attacks against someone for their religious beliefs. I would hope that most "open-minded" Paleo folk would feel the same way. People might be surprised to learn that there is a thriving Christian Paleo community out there who came into it via distrust of the food system and their libertarian politics. I would hate for "Paleo" to become synonymous with "intolerant" or "bigoted." For the record, I'm an atheist.
  2. I see some of the problems arising from a mixture of professional/academic and what I've come to call lifestyle adherents (of which I count myself a member). There is a great divide here in motivation and goals, and yet we all fit under the big tent somehow.
  3. I'm seeing the accusation that someone doesn't "believe" in evolution more and more, which strikes me as intolerably elitist (I say "believe" because I don't think evolution cares what you think about it). And while I personally do, I don't see it as a requirement to understand that eating a real-foods-based diet is healthier for humans. In all honesty, I see plenty of folks who supposedly believe in evolution who don't seem to understand it that well. I certainly have more to learn on that front too.

I'm not saying we should all play nice, per se. I'm saying we should play smarter. I hate to see really smart people resort to ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments. You have the ability to take people down in a real way that would add to the discussion and help the rest of us learn from it in the process.

So, Melissa, instead of dismissing Nora Gedgaudas by her lack of credentials, I want to see you bring up the discrepancies of the coprolite study, for example. I personally am fascinated by this and want to know more. Because I've read most of Primal Body, Primal Mind and thought it sounded pretty solid and well-researched, but what do I know? When we dismiss people wholesale (yes, even Jack Kruse...), we may miss out on parts of their message that are actually good, which I feel happens to Taubes all the time too.

So who owns Paleo? Who do we listen to and why? Why don't we draw up a huge list of who we think is mainstream Paleo and who's fringe? Would we find a consensus?

EDIT: Preceding questions are mostly rhetorical or meant for thought. Obviously the answer to the first one is "nobody." (Thanks, Kamal!)

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Karen. I appreciate your view but you cannot control this...why are you trying?

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:36 PM

Good comments. The easiest thing to fix is the ad homs. People should just stop it. I watched a few busy members on here that only seem to respond to some topics with ad homs about the person in the topic. ex- "What about this article?" "Isn't that guy fat? Who cares what he says!"

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:07 PM

@Bacon, I was torn about posting at all. I realized some might see it that way.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 08, 2012
at 08:03 PM

Religion and evolution are kind of irrelevant to discussions of lifestyle and diet strategy, but the moment science comes up then it is an important consideration whether someone believes in evolution or that the earth is 6000 years old. You have to beat the crap out of bad science or it just spreads. If “believing in evolution” is “elitism” that just means bad science is winning. Whether Jack Kruse has good diet strategies or not, much of his “science” is buffoonery. If the Paleosphere is supposed to just sit back and smile politely at the buffoonery science, I would rather it just go away.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 10:45 PM

@ Karen. Well even though I disgree with you I wish you well.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:39 PM

This is all very interesting, but maybe it's not a big deal to define who owns paleo, and who to listen to? Everybody has their own ways of doing things. Melissa is a feisty anthro/paleo blogger, Quilt offers up his unified theory of health, Taubes champions insulin at all times, etc etc. Part of the reason I chose to pursue the sciences instead of the more liberal arts is that it doesn't involve as many opinions of how things should be and how people may or may not act. I love me some paleo gossip though :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 09, 2012
at 07:40 PM

Karen, I hope you do these periodically. It would be cool to track the tone of paleo over time.

11
7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 04:37 PM

I like "shrill tones."

I'll take shrill over any kind of "smoothing over." Don't get me wrong...I don't like out and out jerks but I don't think this debating is out of hand?

I get irritated when people want to "steward" Paleo in any way. My baseline is...I want everything out there so I can experiment/decide for myself.

This is the same reason why I'm not too keen on "I feel uncomfortable with all this bickering so can we all just get along so I don't feel uncomfortable?"

I prefer the bickering. I like the discord. I think it's part of the process.

I like that Kurt Harris is willing to pop up with something a little snarky on the boards. I like it that Moore fires back. I like that Melissa is irreverent about it all and stays her own course. This is really great and...normal.

When she asks, "So now what? Where do we go from here?"

Keep arguing and keep dissecting. Don't try to stifle the naughty name calling or the information. These bio-chemists, docs, podcast hosts and bloggers are all grown-ups.

"I say be the change you wish to see, be respectful, or shut up." Ugh. I can't take it.

0df0b1c6ae16bbb75b4a5efa3d876765

(2240)

on March 08, 2012
at 04:50 PM

“Time spent arguing is, oddly enough, almost never wasted.” -Christopher Hitchens

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:33 PM

I think my favorite post ever is "Don Matesz stumped by Tim the Enchanter". It makes me laugh so hard, I must have read it, like, 10 times. http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/12/13/don-matesz-stumped-by-tim-the-enchanter.html

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 07:31 PM

Ahhh ha ha ha. Yes I love that too.

408b32d0900853851167089d730f1881

on March 09, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Yes. THIS. Maybe it's because as I grow older, I'm increasingly weary by those who would encourage us to 'just all get along, please'. I want to cut to the chase already. I don't want people to stifle what they think or how they feel out of fear of 'offending' someone else. Should they be respectful? Yep. Avoid personal attacks and/or getting down into the mud as the first volley? If that's possible. But I'd rather have real & genuine than nicey-nice, any day of the week. I'm a big girl - I can handle the tussling.

7
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:56 PM

Here is my impression. We've got the standard paleo diet, which tends to be low carbohydrate. I assume most of us went on it for at least thirty days and it was good- definitely better than S.A.D. Then we've got athletes. They find carbohydrates help them fuel their activities. They also have trouble relating to people who don't understand massive amounts of exercise and competitiveness. I am imagining these folks are like the folks who kicked Robb Wolf out of Crossfit. In other words, screw healing people, it is all about the competition. We've also got academics. They hate the low carbohydrate message with a passion that makes them ignore those studies that prove ketogenic diets are good for various illnesses. Now, most of academia is not paleo, but if you are paleo and you want any sort of place in academia, it will soon seem perfectly reasonable for you to pretend carbohydrates have nothing to do with anything. There are many untruths it takes a relatively intelligent person to believe. This is why the proles, in general, don't believe in Marxism, but many academics do.

On the low carb side we've got a diet that works amazingly well, especially in conjunction with Paleo. We've got reasonable people pointing out that the necessary research hasn't been done, but much like anyone trying to recreate climatology research, they are declared anathema. Then, of course, low carbers can get nutty too. I did when I was losing weight, because any plateau caused a strong temptation to get really strict. Some folks who are less introverted than me have promulgated this sort of thing, but I doubt the sub 20g thing brings enough of a return to be worth it.

We've got people like Jack Kruse, who are bring new ideas up, and that is good. Please people, if you want to shoot him down, actually try to read his stuff! I'm seeing people I know are smart making silly mistakes because they are operating out of anger and not paying attention to what he said.

Let me return to the main point again- The standard paleo diet should be the 'best practice'. The one we tell people to try. Hold the potatos, rice, ice bags, piracetam, coprolites, intermittent fasting, high intensity workouts, and whatever else for 30 days so people can heal their guts. Suffer through the scandal of someone going into ketosis on occasion. Tell them to get rid of the grains, legumes, and dairy for thirty days and maybe grudgingly remember that avoiding carbs for awhile actually helps people comply.

So what is the state of the paleosphere? Pure anarchy, my friends, and that is pretty much awesome.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on March 08, 2012
at 10:18 PM

I would just like to see my real space friends repeat the experiment that brought us success, not the one that didn't. I imagine, especially here at paleohacks, you'd probably "don't be silly" a newcomer into doing something that looks far more like the latter than the former. I can't understand your reference to competition, as it seems to have been taken out of the context I used it in- athletes, who care more about shaving seconds of their fran time, and can't understand other people are so lazy.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:22 PM

+1 for awesome anarchy. I agree. Having been in both the Army and a large corporation, I've learned the danger of unhealthy agreement. In this environment, anarchy is both interesting and healthy.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 08, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I personally don't think I ever said LC didn't have a therapeutic value. I think the idea that this means they are the optimal for everyone and everything is questionable. In fact, it seems quite bad for some people, so it's certainly not about just some competition. Lots of LCers and LC-ish folks in academia like Jeff Volek and Miki Ben Dor.

6
24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:08 PM

I agree with Karen- I didn't interpret the post as saying we shouldn't disagree; I think it's more about the tone. I've been turned off by the in-fighting for awhile, but that's just what happens when there are diverse personalities involved; folks won't always get along or communicate in a way that I think is productive.

I'm not smart on the science stuff, so I don't really get into the controversial topics; I just like food :)

6
F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

on March 08, 2012
at 01:04 PM

Every organisation splinters as it matures. You get this in sport and athletics (think of all the various distances that are run from 60m Indoor to Ultramarathons), religions, political organisation - everywhere.

The science of nutrition and exercise/health is equivocal. I think that the level of disagreement and discussion we are seeing in the paleosphere is actually a sign of health and progress.

More importantly, the paleosphere is changing and shaping the debate of health and fitness on a national and international scale.

As for the ad hominems, that is symptomatic of life on the web! As is 'battle by Google-Fu' where we chuck claim and counter claim research from Pub-Med at one another.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 08, 2012
at 04:02 PM

The web has given rise to 'trolling' - enough said! Ad homs are inevitable with anonymity. In some ways you have to be brave to stick your head above the intellectual parapet these days, 'Show me the study' is the first card everyone plays in the paleosphere and nutrition is so awash with crappy science that it isn't enough to cherry-pick your evidence, you need to produce a quality study. I often feel that the interventions are often so short or blighted by confounders that they barely seem applicable to adaptive biological systems.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 08, 2012
at 04:31 PM

So well said Asclepius.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 08, 2012
at 03:27 PM

It's very true that ad homs are part of life on the web, but it's not that hard to keep them to a minimum and ask others to do the same. I've been here less than 2 weeks and I've seen more than I expected to be honest, most of them directed at Moore. When someone starts arguing the person and not the topic, it's time to comment "cut it out." There are some on this very page. Look above.

5
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 08, 2012
at 07:27 PM

It takes a lot of wading through the BS high school musical drama to pull a few good nuggets of info out of some blogs....thats for certain. I don't care whose the in crowd or why they are having a tiff with some other obscure blogger. FYI they are all obscure bloggers! Nobody in day to day life recognizes any of these so called big names :).

So kick back relax and watch some Days of Our Lives....OR kick back relax and read some paleo blogs....both have the silly drama, but only with the blogs might you accidentally learn something, or get interested in looking into some research areas on your own.

2
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 08, 2012
at 06:37 PM

I think all we really have in common is the fact that many in the "mainstream" think we are a fringe, wacko community. Even there, though, when you get past the paleo label, it seems more and more mainstream-types are finding areas of agreement with us.

For me, there is a need to apply some trust as I'm not qualified to judge the research for myself. I can read abstracts and overviews of methodology but that's as far as I go so at some point I have to select which point of view "sounds legit." I tend to listen hard when Melissa, Emily Deans, Chris Kresser and Dr Kurt Harris speak because my perception is that their credentials are guided by powerful minds. There are others, of course, but those are my primary "references."

I like the fiery discussions about the validity of research pieces and what they may mean to us, and I support scrutinizing behaviors that may not match public recommendations--and calling out those inconsistencies. I do get uncomfortable when harshly critical articles seem based purely on residual anger from past clashes--my discomfort stems from uncertainty about whether the position taken is driven by the history or the facts of the current instance.

If you ask me, "What is the Paleosphere?" I'm not sure I have a precise definition. I'm not really looking for something "to belong to" so for me it's more about who I want to hear more from and who doesn't set off any woo alarms (or make me want to rub my palm on my sleeve.)

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 09, 2012
at 04:55 PM

Actually, I think the universe is a giant piece of bacon...

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 09, 2012
at 02:34 PM

Yes, and why should it be a sphere? Couldn't it be a paleo-trapezoid, or a paleo-rhombus, or maybe bison shaped? :)

1
B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on March 08, 2012
at 11:51 AM

Max Weber's "Sociology of Religion" is a good place to start to help explain the evolution of the "Paleosphere".

0
3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

on March 08, 2012
at 06:57 AM

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