0

votes

Why has paleohacks shrunk ?

Commented on May 22, 2014
Created May 17, 2014 at 12:18 PM

I see much more people in old posts, so much that it seems time won't allow the questions of now to reach so many answers no matter how much time passes.

What has happened in this site to cause so many users to stop using it ?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:42 AM

@raydawg

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/mitoku-traditional-natto-spores-questions.html?dir=DESC&orderby=2&p=1

  • can this be used with chickpeas or lentils instead of soybeans?
  • While natto is traditionally made with soybeans, it can be made with other high-protein beans such as garbanzo, black beans, adzuki and others. To use alternative beans, follow the same procedure and make minor adjustments to preparation of the beans and culturing time. It can also be made with lentils, but they have a bit of a reputation for being stronger smelling.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:40 AM

@glib your answer seems to me to be "non-responsive" to the original question?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:12 AM

I've lost so many long answers I written due to an errant key stroke....now when an answer starts to get long, I swtich to Word or gmail to compose and thus avoid losing work.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 20, 2014
at 12:11 AM

Primary missing features from old site (for spam maintenance):

1. New posts by new users

2. New posts to old answers

3. Recent votes to close

4. Recent votes of spam

5. Recent votes of offensive

6. Recent votes to delete.

Anyone over 10k could pull up this list, and easily help keep out the clutter.

Also, I liked the 5 votes to close feature.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 19, 2014
at 03:49 PM

There's also a lot of "If I haven't heard of what you said before, you must be wrong, so I'll downvote you." Ignorance is no way to live, if you hear something new, it doesn't mean it's BS necessarily.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on May 19, 2014
at 02:07 PM

yes, and to the extent that it is a wide tent, it has helped me a lot. I may be critical, but I am still reading this forum.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f

(1217)

on May 18, 2014
at 08:17 PM

I learn ALOT from being wrong - I mean, we can't really learn unless we entertain the possibility of being wrong, correct? Dialog is so important, I think, and understanding that asking questions isn't always an attack. Being right all the time is kind of boring and tends to make people super defensive. I come back because I still find things useful and I think reinforcing my process with reading the q&a's, even if repetitive, helps me stay solid.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 18, 2014
at 07:34 PM

I agree, people with 10k + points can't delete closed questions anymore. @Raydawg maybe try to see if you can get some high level members mod status, like cd and matt? They are the highest level active members that frequent these boards without mod status.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:36 PM

This is definitely true. I used to be a major asshole closing questions that had been asked before. But the new site ruined searching, so I cannot blame people for asking the same question.

What we really need is a paleo wiki. A site where paleo topics can be archived with links to the science on either side, which "guru" believes what, etc. As new science comes around, the community can link it. Add sub-notes for the discussion and faction fighting and you'd have a powerful site.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:32 PM

In addition to making it less usable, many of the incentives for active participation went away. But this is not the primary reason, it was slowly going down before teh switch

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:30 PM

yeah, this was big. Even when moderators were gone, the site was easily maintained by the community.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2014
at 09:55 AM

Another thing I hate about the new site, sorry can't upvote you. Some people thrive on the clash of ideas, others don't. Probably the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality drives away more people than it attracts. I'm used to bring wrong, and I don't gain anything much from being right all the time.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2014
at 09:50 AM

Paleo is not well thought out and organized. That's what makes it appealing to me. I tend to focus on behavior and historical, but feed on the nutritional aspects others bring in.

4e184df9c1ed38f61febc5d6cf031921

(5005)

on May 18, 2014
at 07:25 AM

I agree about Kamal and Melissa being the brightest and best - I really miss their replies.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:45 AM

I up voted you. it is good to be a victim of your own success. Here is a list of things I have changed, or where I fully understood the importance of foods I was already eating, based on posts I saw here:

- bone broth. More bones, cooked longer than before

- root vegetables. More of them

- I am making more krauts

- much more rice and potatoes, and of course I stopped 99% of wheat intake

- natto

- raw liver

- raw heart

- gelatin

- tallow

- eat skin and cartilage

- I became aware of sensitivity to egg white

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 17, 2014
at 09:52 PM

So much wrong with this new design, it's not intuitive at all, new users are uber-confused. Half the time it doesn't work for folks who know what the hell we're doing either.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 17, 2014
at 09:51 PM

The old paleo hacks was "ruled" by the high-end users (we had tools to help make the place look better) and we had a few active moderators that did an excellent job cleaning up projectile spam vomit. No moderators + no tools = box full of spam vomit.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 17, 2014
at 07:21 PM

That's what the PH creators want for the site… that's where the $$$ is. New folks buy things like 30 meal plans, guides to paleo, etc… old guard paleo folks don't.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 17, 2014
at 07:20 PM

It's not that she's wrong, she's just a jerk/bully.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 17, 2014
at 06:25 PM

Maybe that, and too many n00b questions on "How do I lose weight? I've been paleo for 3 minutes, why haven't I lost 80lbs yet?"

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 17, 2014
at 06:24 PM

I wouldn't call Evelyn one of the best and brightest - perhaps she was initially, but, if anything, she went carb-insane. Oh well, it's a shame it went down like that.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2014
at 05:13 PM

Hate that spam. It makes Paleohacks look like an old dirt road.

3fc95bca9e723edfbbb72b172798ab49

(1354)

on May 17, 2014
at 02:35 PM

Pretty much this. The largest value of this forum currently seems to be its archive. I feel less inclined to swing by when it is just more 'allowance' questions ("Can I eat this...", "Am I doing this right...", etc.).

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 17, 2014
at 01:10 PM

And lack of moderation. Plus very little new discussion -- just lots of old topics re-asked

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11 Answers

best answer

0
B7b503a8fe916f7e67b20afc4137e9f6

on May 19, 2014
at 05:22 PM

Hey everyone,

Before I respond - In case you don't know who I am, I am the current 'behind-the-scenes-guy' here at PaleoHacks. "The Old Guard" is still around (i.e. Patrick), but he's got quite a lot on his plate. The feedback you're giving here is excellent, I appreciate it. I have a few comments on everything:

1. I would really appreciate talking to a few of you more experienced members here (@raydawg, looking at you!) privately about your thoughts on the site/community, what you feel could be improved, what you feel is wrong, etc. If any of you want to chat, you can e-mail me directly at davidsinick [at] gmail [dot] com. -- that is my personal e-mail so please don't abuse it. :)

2. On the current CMS - please understand that we were, essentially, forced to very quickly move off of stackexchange onto this platform (answerhub) - in terms of features lost, etc., most of that was out of our control, unfortunately. We are working to fix that, however, there's only so much we can do. I would absolutely, again, love to hear your feedback on features that we SHOULD and SHOULDN'T have and I'd direct you to either reply to this or e-mail me directly above

3. On moderation / spam - this is entirely my fault - and it would appear we are low on moderators (and spam has definitely become more of a problem) - after I finish posting this, I will make a thread where you all can vote on 3 new moderators -- cool? Unfortunately in terms of allowing users to delete closed threads, etc. I don't think that's impossible (as in - can't do it with the current software).

That's all for now. Please - any and all feedback is great. I still think (and our traffic still shows as such) that this is the best paleo community on the web, and one of the best resources for any and all paleo learning. I know it's been a bumpy road for the past 8 months or so...but keep your eyes open for some new improvements very soon.

David

P.S. Yes, I know I "accepted" my own post as the best answer - but I just want to make sure people see it. Don't arrest me, paleo police! :)

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 20, 2014
at 12:11 AM

Primary missing features from old site (for spam maintenance):

1. New posts by new users

2. New posts to old answers

3. Recent votes to close

4. Recent votes of spam

5. Recent votes of offensive

6. Recent votes to delete.

Anyone over 10k could pull up this list, and easily help keep out the clutter.

Also, I liked the 5 votes to close feature.

0
3d58b5fb4f9780e2f47d4dcc53338a5a

(2771)

on May 19, 2014
at 05:51 PM

1. I miss seeing how I get points and what I got points for.

2. There seems to be a contingency of downvoters here that downvote anything and everything. I've seen some noobs come on with some "stupid" questions, but they really don't know and want to learn something, and people respond with downvotes and sarcasm. There seems to be so many people with a "there's only one way to do this right" attitude and I find the site less and less a friendly idea exchange, and more of a flame contest.

I finally got a friend to look into the paleo world, and he came across this site first, and he got turned off because of all the bickering and, dare I say it, unsound bro-science. I've been to the site enough to sift through that stuff, but it's a little tough for those that are just coming in to this area.

I'm not sure how to change the attitude of the forum, but I sure miss the "helpful" aura it used to have.

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 19, 2014
at 03:47 PM

@glib

Firstly, your answer is somewhat offtopic as this is not a critique of what might be wrong with the paleo diet, but rather, why did the old ones go. Secondly, your critique is quite flawed. The idea of what paleo is changes month by month as new studies and information comes out. For instance, while resistant starch is very new, most of the original paleo folks have embraced it. Science is a moving target - new data comes out, opinions chage. If you want to go by the earliest definitions of what paleo is, you'll find them very flawed. Try comparing them to modern versions instead. Keep up with blogs, podcasts and the like and you'll find that this is the case.

Natto is a fermented soy food, and by definition, not paleo - both because it's fermented and because it's made of soy. Fermented foods couldn't be introduced until you had containers - this coincides with farming, not HGs. That said, it's extremely beneficial, and some of us are interested in natto but perhaps made from things other than soy - I'd for example be very interested in getting my hands on natto as a starter culture for making with overly soaked and cooked lentils. Even so, we can get vitamin K from other sources such as egg yolks and liver, or supplements. There's nothing that says it has to be natto or GTFO.

There is a lot of interest in the human gut biome at the moment and resistant starches all over the paleosphere, not sure where you got this idea from. Sure, the original books don't much mention it, but so what? Science changes, knowledge changes, ideas and practices follow.

In terms of calcium, we get plenty from leafy greens. We can cook them or process them to make the phytates let go. Look at a baby elephant, after it's weaned off mom's milk, it grows huge. It must get calcium from somewhere for its bones. Where? greens! We don't need excess Ca from dairy - all it would do is clog up our arteries without K and magnesium.

As for magnesium, it's not like eating a vegan or SAD would provide it. The soils that modern agriculture grows our veggies in is depleted. It's not like you can magically get magnesium by eating bread. So I'm not sure what your point here is.

Indeed there's plenty of collagen and glycine in bone broth, as well as some nutriets. Some of us actually eat bones. For example, I chew the ends off chicken leg bones and wings. So we can get calcium that way.

In terms of phytates, yeah, it's overblown, nuts have them too and nuts are considered paleo - not that we're going to eat bags of nuts daily. As for the goitrogens, you'll need to juice entire bags of kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts, or spinach in order to get enough oxalates or gointrogens to experience harm. This is one reason why juicing isn't a good idea. We cook these plants instead most of the time, and when we consume them raw, they've got so much fiber as to prevent us from eating enough to cause problems.

Joel Salatin has shown time and time again that proper management of land with the right animals, mimicking nature is very much the right way to go, and very sustainable. Whether it's possible to support 9 bilion or 7 billion people on one planet is questionable to begin with. However, converting all those lawns, golf courses, and mass monoculture fields into pasture for cows, chickens, rabbits, goats, and feeding all of them a species appropriate diet is the way to go, and allow them to refertilize the land rather than pool up acres of land with animal waste instead. Certainly, CAFO and big-agra farming are not sustainable.

Not sure where you get that eating just muscle meat, bone broth, and liver is enough, the key is nose-to-tail. Sure, brains are dangerous, but there are other organs. Tongue, tails, hooves, kidneys, tripe, marrow, etc.

So ultimately, your definition of what paleo is, is what's flawed.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:42 AM

@raydawg

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/mitoku-traditional-natto-spores-questions.html?dir=DESC&orderby=2&p=1

  • can this be used with chickpeas or lentils instead of soybeans?
  • While natto is traditionally made with soybeans, it can be made with other high-protein beans such as garbanzo, black beans, adzuki and others. To use alternative beans, follow the same procedure and make minor adjustments to preparation of the beans and culturing time. It can also be made with lentils, but they have a bit of a reputation for being stronger smelling.

0
76026e8ef496039d5075440ff731aa0d

on May 18, 2014
at 12:04 AM

Once you've learned what works for you via N=1 and speaking with a lot of the smarty pants folks here, you won’t need to spend as much time here, which is a great thing and should never been frowned upon, but what I've found is that coming back after a couple months, I’ve been presented two roads...

Respond to the same questions over and Over and over, just phone in your answer, copy and pasted, sit back and rake in the up votes...that makes me feel bad dirty...

OR

I can become an asshole who continues to ask "why you didn't search for that topic before posting it?" I've easily counted 5-8 questions that are the same just framed slightly different, and in my head when I read these question I become quite snarky "search option, it's a thing, use it...”

That is my personal experience as of late, but PH will remain with me as others have mentioned because its database is a great resource for all those things you never think to ask.

Truth.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:45 AM

I up voted you. it is good to be a victim of your own success. Here is a list of things I have changed, or where I fully understood the importance of foods I was already eating, based on posts I saw here:

- bone broth. More bones, cooked longer than before

- root vegetables. More of them

- I am making more krauts

- much more rice and potatoes, and of course I stopped 99% of wheat intake

- natto

- raw liver

- raw heart

- gelatin

- tallow

- eat skin and cartilage

- I became aware of sensitivity to egg white

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:36 PM

This is definitely true. I used to be a major asshole closing questions that had been asked before. But the new site ruined searching, so I cannot blame people for asking the same question.

What we really need is a paleo wiki. A site where paleo topics can be archived with links to the science on either side, which "guru" believes what, etc. As new science comes around, the community can link it. Add sub-notes for the discussion and faction fighting and you'd have a powerful site.

0
618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f

(1217)

on May 17, 2014
at 11:56 PM

I see so many kids posting suddenly - teenagers - and it seems weird to respond to them. The questions are repetitive. People are in different camps and have very fixed beliefs and dialog isn't much appreciated, so threads can devolve into a boring - "I'm right" vs "No I'M right". Also - it seems strange to spend so much time sitting around reading a computer screen when paleo tells us to move alot. I think the nature of the beast may be to wean its users off of using it.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2014
at 09:55 AM

Another thing I hate about the new site, sorry can't upvote you. Some people thrive on the clash of ideas, others don't. Probably the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality drives away more people than it attracts. I'm used to bring wrong, and I don't gain anything much from being right all the time.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 19, 2014
at 03:49 PM

There's also a lot of "If I haven't heard of what you said before, you must be wrong, so I'll downvote you." Ignorance is no way to live, if you hear something new, it doesn't mean it's BS necessarily.

0
56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on May 17, 2014
at 10:22 PM

Then there is the fact that people have realized:

1) standard paleo gives you a Ca/P ratio of 0.1 or so, when 2-2.5 would be the norm. Depending on how much meat you eat, also not a lot of Ca

2) standard paleo is insufficient in Mg without taking pills

3) paleo demonizes certain phytotoxins, gives a pass to other toxins (e.g. phytates vs goitrogens in kale)

4) paleo does not distinguish between SFA and MUFA, even though there is evidence that MUFA are preferable

5) paleo has not tried to incorporate certain healthy foods of long-lived populations (e.g., natto)

6) Likewise, not a lot of attention was given to the Zn/Cu ratio

7) no attention was given to gut flora, resistant starches and probiotics

8) paleo is not sustainable. I do not see 7 billion people eating paleo

9) whole animal eating was reduced to steak and liver and Ca-poor bone broth. Sources of Se, I, vitamin C, and most important collagen, Zn and Ca from an animal were ignored.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:40 AM

@glib your answer seems to me to be "non-responsive" to the original question?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2014
at 09:50 AM

Paleo is not well thought out and organized. That's what makes it appealing to me. I tend to focus on behavior and historical, but feed on the nutritional aspects others bring in.

0
6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on May 17, 2014
at 09:59 PM

The new design does suck, but mainly it's the spam. Also, every time I try to post/comment it makes me log in again. And then takes me to a different page than I was trying to post on. But mainly it's the spam.

0
1a91ec126b2b4189539b028d2767e518

(320)

on May 17, 2014
at 07:32 PM

I can only speak for myself. When the big site redesign happened the useability of the site went into the crapper. I don't waste my time expanding comments under answers. Many good things are lost when embedded under answers and not seen. Who wants to click to expand comments? Not me.

I think the problem is directly linked to this clunky comments and answers system. It non-standard and I don't like it.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 18, 2014
at 02:32 PM

In addition to making it less usable, many of the incentives for active participation went away. But this is not the primary reason, it was slowly going down before teh switch

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 17, 2014
at 09:52 PM

So much wrong with this new design, it's not intuitive at all, new users are uber-confused. Half the time it doesn't work for folks who know what the hell we're doing either.

0
Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2014
at 05:09 PM

Paleo is beyond the new-and-exploitable phase. The Quilt kept the pot stirred in his own self interest. Many of the major bloggers showed up to attract traffic to their books and blogs, which added legitimacy. And the best and brightest - Kamal, Evelyn, Melissa - just moved on.

How much do you need to know. Paleohacks showed me what Paleo is, in all its highly varied forms. I still learn things but not like 2 years ago when it was all newer. The give and take - the dialectic between different visions of Paleo - is broadening, but it has limits and gets repetitive and boring.

4e184df9c1ed38f61febc5d6cf031921

(5005)

on May 18, 2014
at 07:25 AM

I agree about Kamal and Melissa being the brightest and best - I really miss their replies.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 17, 2014
at 06:24 PM

I wouldn't call Evelyn one of the best and brightest - perhaps she was initially, but, if anything, she went carb-insane. Oh well, it's a shame it went down like that.

0
Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on May 17, 2014
at 02:54 PM

I'm sure there's a lot of people who were in the process of writing questions or answers while copying and pasting and lost all of their work, so they just stopped posting. Removal of bounty questions, few other things as well.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on May 22, 2014
at 04:12 AM

I've lost so many long answers I written due to an errant key stroke....now when an answer starts to get long, I swtich to Word or gmail to compose and thus avoid losing work.

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 17, 2014
at 01:05 PM

I suspect, in a word: spam. That or the old guard is gone since the upgrade.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2014
at 05:13 PM

Hate that spam. It makes Paleohacks look like an old dirt road.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 17, 2014
at 06:25 PM

Maybe that, and too many n00b questions on "How do I lose weight? I've been paleo for 3 minutes, why haven't I lost 80lbs yet?"

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on May 17, 2014
at 01:10 PM

And lack of moderation. Plus very little new discussion -- just lots of old topics re-asked

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