18

votes

"would you agree with this revision to substitute ad libitum nuts in favor of ad libitum tubers?"

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 13, 2012 at 8:05 PM

I may have overplayed it with the title a bit, but I think the most dramatic hack would probably solve over 90% of the problems people face in these forums.

The paleo diet is usually presented with foods that can be eaten ad libitum, like meat, seafood, veggies, nuts, and fruit; followed by foods to consume in moderation/at only certain times such as tubers. I think by replacing the nuts ad libitum with tubers ad libitum and limiting/eliminating the nuts we would solve a lot of peoples malaise and support the macro agnostic sentiment (which is backed by lots of research).

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 31, 2012
at 08:36 AM

"Nuts are nutrient dense. Tubers are not". Well, you know, that's just like...your opinion, man.

A7d60508bc045667a2c970b3e221c138

on August 15, 2012
at 11:43 PM

I agree that there is a massive link between obesity and malnutrition and true cravings are the body's attempt to obtain what is is just not getting. True nourishment has to be there before a person has a shot in hell at healthy, lifelong weight loss/maintenance, IMVHO. Unfortunately, there are countless roadblocks to nutrition that often need to be sorted out, such as malabsorption, etc. It requires a lot of research and self experimentation, not to mention time and money. "Going on a diet" just doesn't cut it! Eventually, health needs to be the focus, but vanity usually kicks it off...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:20 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case higer carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. Exercise is hormesis via stress after all. Theres a U curve. Too much will kill ya, just like too little will. And lets face it, the majority of groups of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting their lean muscle mass. They just live significantly active lives.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:16 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case higer carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. Exercise is hormesis via stress after all. Theres a U curve. And lets face it, the majority of groups of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting their lean muscle mass. They just live active lives.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. The majority of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting there lean muscle mass.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:11 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. The longest lived peoples of the world, do not attend gyms and spend time looking at themselves in the mirror.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:07 AM

I mean if humans can survive and be healthy eating primarily just meat (which they clearly have and do), and also mostly carbs with some meat (which they also do), then my guess is that carb % intake, outside of your anerobic energy needs is somewhat irrelevant. I suspect that its more issues like insufficient electrolytes, insuffecient copper balance etc that makes people fail at low carb, health wise. The true HGers ate nose to tail, including drink the blood and eating the liver. Youve got to be careful what nutrients you get in, in low carb IMO.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:03 AM

Presumably the old massai arent fit, healthy and lean? Or the old innuit? I guess we were also all terrible unhealthy during the whole ice age too? I find this persistant veiw that high carbs are needed to stave off horrible health issues to be at odds with history. It seems far more likely that the modern people just arent doing it right.

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:46 AM

Actually, now that I think about it, nuts in their natural state - encased in a hard shell - wouldn't be very accessible. I figure satiety would kick in before you could plow through enough of them to do harm.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:56 PM

And to those people I say get your tater on.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:55 PM

And to those people I say: get your tater on.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Being a humans means you can't digest fiber, not IBS.

0bc04a2ee661857e8458df34646e70ef

(319)

on August 14, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Actually Jimmy's blood sugar didn't go out of normal range when he was eating the sweet potato, it was the honey that seemed to do it. Post workout his blood sugar barely moved. This is with his long-term low-carb physiological insulin resistance. I think his problem is more psychological than anything.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 14, 2012
at 06:18 PM

I'm pretty sure cannabalism is paleo. So is eating a lot of insects. Well, I was never REALLY paleo anyways...

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 14, 2012
at 06:16 PM

Especially pistachios.

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 14, 2012
at 06:09 PM

This: "This diet keeps me full, lean, healthy and happy." x 1,000,000. Everyone should aim for that, no matter what macronutrient ratios or food choices that includes. (Well, unless those food choices are human. I'm kind of categorically against modern cannibalism.)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:20 PM

@ JayJay- If that is your reasoning, that is fine. What makes you think physiological insulin resistance from a VLC, high fat is a good thing? If you do, then I suppose you think being athletic, well muscled, and not skinny-fat is a bad thing?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:17 PM

@ Paleo2.0- Yes, he likes to victimize himself rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Must be suffering from low T and I can guess his political party affiliate.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Unfortunately some people like to victimize themselves when they're not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. The man must be a liberal with low testorone.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 14, 2012
at 01:48 PM

I think for most people that are fat or have ever been fat then *ad libitum* is just not in the cards.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 14, 2012
at 01:45 PM

Jimmy said that he used to drink 16 cans of coke a day. 16 effing cans. But he didn't get diabetes. Now low-carb dieting has effed up his body so much that a half a tuber is a huge worry? But this is also the same guy that went to Washington DC to testify before the USDA that the food pyramid made him fat. Not the 16 effing cans of coke per day, but the food pyramid.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 14, 2012
at 11:16 AM

Not everyone on Paleo is a fatty.

Ef26f888ed248de197c37a4cb04ef4a7

(584)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:42 AM

I was always kind of curious how someone goes from eating copious amounts of little debbies cakes and sugary soda on a daily basis, to now believing a baked tuber is going to bowl him over.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:28 AM

'Anonymous down-voting. Awesome.' yea I got downvoted for saying VLC is bad news in the long run, some people sure do hate carbs on this site, they also seem to hate other people's opinions

34cf7065a6c94062c711eb16c0f6adc3

on August 14, 2012
at 05:08 AM

You definitely can replace the carbs from rice, with carbs from veggies, but only if you can handle them.

34cf7065a6c94062c711eb16c0f6adc3

on August 14, 2012
at 05:06 AM

IBS means you cannot digest fiber. This means meat + rice + ghee, and vegetables you can digest. Vegetables would more likely be white potatoes, gourd family, as they are low in insoluble fibers. It definitely does not mean eating meat and greens. Do not think of diets in absolute terms. Think about your problem and design a diet that will work for you. Why Rice: You need some carbs. Why ghee: You need the short chain fatty acids (SCFA) for gut healing. Meat does not have much SCFA. Vegetables for getting plant nutrients.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Yes low carb is good for improving insulin resistance and treatment metabolic syndrome. I don't really even consider this a topic of debate with the current knowledge.....

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:13 AM

Kind of an unnecessary hit on Jimmy Moore....the fella has pathological insulin issues which are much different from the physiological insulin resistance that is a normal response on a VLC diet. The difference being that they physiological sort is normal/necessary and is easily reversible by reintroducing carbohydrate to the diet.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 02:30 AM

"I assume they do this because they are feeling deprived of carbohydrates, and nuts contain some carbs, but you have to eat A LOT of them to get any appreciable amount"....thats your own confirmation bias speaking. I personally must have missed all the "I eat whole tubs of almond butter, but can't lose weight" threads (might be a couple). Sorry, but it is just not realistic. Most people understand there are limits. If they don't then they usually get pelted with that information when they open such a thread.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 02:25 AM

You gotta get your energy from somewhere. I like fat. I only do HIT 1-2x/week with a lot of regular daily movement. You like to get your energy from carbs? Have at it. But there are plenty of people that can attest to overindulging on mashed potatoes too.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:46 AM

The same can be said for coconut butter/mana as well.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Actually, re-reading this, A LOT of people do what the OP suggests. I read on here all the time about people bingeing on nuts- eating up to a lb at a time and an entire tub of almond butter. I assume they do this because they are feeling deprived of carbohydrates, and nuts contain some carbs, but you have to eat A LOT of them to get any appreciable amount. If they'd just eat a roasted sweet potato instead, they'd save themselves hundreds of calories.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Yeah you are correct MathGirl, but I don't take ad libitum to mean bingeing.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:33 AM

Yeah you're right MathGirl, but I don't take ad libitum to mean bingeing.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:07 AM

"Some starch" is different than tubers ad libitum. Gorging on ANY food can be detrimental to the body, period.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:50 PM

but yeah, for non-weight related issues though I think the effect of such a revision would be positive.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:23 PM

I'm not much of a philosopher, but I'm pretty sure the OP's argument is the exact definition of a straw man.... so +1.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:20 PM

If I could upvote your comment more than once, I would.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I'm out of up votes but will get you later.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:15 PM

It is actually true that if you look at the paleo/primal food pyramid, nuts are not on the bottom- meat is. But I think what the OP is getting at is that people look for every way to add calories to their diet besides starch, which causes people to add unnatural amounts of fats to their diet in the form of butter/ghee, nuts/nut-butters, coconut oil/coconut butter, etc. When in reality, it should be eat meat and fish and vegetables, and add in starch before adding in oils/extra fats.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Anonymous down-voting. Awesome.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Anonymous dow voting. Awesome.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:43 PM

@ Jackson. Change it to "would you agree with this revision to substitute ad libitum nuts in favor of ad libitum tubers?" so that your thread does not get closed.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:38 PM

NO, your problem is you're exercising too much/not eating enough fat..etc. Person is denied, continues to suffer..blah blah blah. The attraction of paleo came from it's reaffirmation of our natural bodily cues. We always thought meat looked scrumptious, it's time to trust your body. And now we are just another version of the bigots we have tried to replace. Just a tad humorous, no?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:37 PM

Yes tubers ad libitum is the way to go. Woman were probably able to gather much more calories from tubers, then men could from hunting.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:36 PM

The funniest part of it is how a movement that claimed to be contrary to mainstream dietary advice has become stuck in the same exact problems as its predecessor. Observe: Vegetarian/vegan is plagued by problems (e.g. fatigue, insomnia, headaches..etc), sees meat and is instantly attracted--I WANT SOME! Doctor/mystic diet guru says NO, your problem is you're not exercising/eating enough fruit...etc. Person is denied, continues to suffer..blah blah blah. Paleo diet follower is plagued by insomnia, fatigue, stalls..etc, sees a potato and desperately wants it. Researcher/MD/diet guru says

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:31 PM

What was the question?

  • Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

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11 Answers

15
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on August 13, 2012
at 08:11 PM

If I had any up-votes left, I'd upvote this right now. In 5 hours or so, I will.

The demonization of carbs by gurus, and the resultant fear of them by followers is, IMHO, the worst and most obnoxious thing about the movement.

This is likely the cause of "weight loss" but poor body composition, lack of weight loss, food guilt, binge eating, "cravings," "adrenal fatige," hypo-thyrpoid, etc you name it- all the most frequently complained about issues on this board. It is no coincidence that every single elite athlete, and every single lean person virtually without exception consumes some starch. If you want to be fit, healthy, and lean there is an optimal amount of carbs you should be consuming, and the number is virtually always above 70g a day (not counting green vegetables).

If you need to eliminate insulin resistance, a low calorie, reduced carb diet will work. People don't like hearing they have to deal with uncomfortable hunger pain to get better, and like hearing they can eat as much fatty animal prodcuts as they desire without ever feeling hungry. Yeah you might reduce blood glucose eating that way, but you certainly will not become insulin sensitive or even eliminate insulin resistance by doing so. Jimmy Moore still can't even eat a sweet potato without resulting diabetic hyperglycemia.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Anonymous down-voting. Awesome.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:20 PM

@ JayJay- If that is your reasoning, that is fine. What makes you think physiological insulin resistance from a VLC, high fat is a good thing? If you do, then I suppose you think being athletic, well muscled, and not skinny-fat is a bad thing?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Yeah you are correct MathGirl, but I don't take ad libitum to mean bingeing.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:07 AM

"Some starch" is different than tubers ad libitum. Gorging on ANY food can be detrimental to the body, period.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 14, 2012
at 01:45 PM

Jimmy said that he used to drink 16 cans of coke a day. 16 effing cans. But he didn't get diabetes. Now low-carb dieting has effed up his body so much that a half a tuber is a huge worry? But this is also the same guy that went to Washington DC to testify before the USDA that the food pyramid made him fat. Not the 16 effing cans of coke per day, but the food pyramid.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:20 PM

If I could upvote your comment more than once, I would.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:33 AM

Yeah you're right MathGirl, but I don't take ad libitum to mean bingeing.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:17 PM

@ Paleo2.0- Yes, he likes to victimize himself rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Must be suffering from low T and I can guess his political party affiliate.

0bc04a2ee661857e8458df34646e70ef

(319)

on August 14, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Actually Jimmy's blood sugar didn't go out of normal range when he was eating the sweet potato, it was the honey that seemed to do it. Post workout his blood sugar barely moved. This is with his long-term low-carb physiological insulin resistance. I think his problem is more psychological than anything.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:20 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case higer carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. Exercise is hormesis via stress after all. Theres a U curve. Too much will kill ya, just like too little will. And lets face it, the majority of groups of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting their lean muscle mass. They just live significantly active lives.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:38 PM

NO, your problem is you're exercising too much/not eating enough fat..etc. Person is denied, continues to suffer..blah blah blah. The attraction of paleo came from it's reaffirmation of our natural bodily cues. We always thought meat looked scrumptious, it's time to trust your body. And now we are just another version of the bigots we have tried to replace. Just a tad humorous, no?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Anonymous dow voting. Awesome.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:03 AM

Presumably the old massai arent fit, healthy and lean? Or the old innuit? I guess we were also all terrible unhealthy during the whole ice age too? I find this persistant veiw that high carbs are needed to stave off horrible health issues to be at odds with history. It seems far more likely that the modern people just arent doing it right.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. The majority of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting there lean muscle mass.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:36 PM

The funniest part of it is how a movement that claimed to be contrary to mainstream dietary advice has become stuck in the same exact problems as its predecessor. Observe: Vegetarian/vegan is plagued by problems (e.g. fatigue, insomnia, headaches..etc), sees meat and is instantly attracted--I WANT SOME! Doctor/mystic diet guru says NO, your problem is you're not exercising/eating enough fruit...etc. Person is denied, continues to suffer..blah blah blah. Paleo diet follower is plagued by insomnia, fatigue, stalls..etc, sees a potato and desperately wants it. Researcher/MD/diet guru says

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Unfortunately some people like to victimize themselves when they're not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. The man must be a liberal with low testorone.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:28 AM

'Anonymous down-voting. Awesome.' yea I got downvoted for saying VLC is bad news in the long run, some people sure do hate carbs on this site, they also seem to hate other people's opinions

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Yes low carb is good for improving insulin resistance and treatment metabolic syndrome. I don't really even consider this a topic of debate with the current knowledge.....

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:16 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case higer carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. Exercise is hormesis via stress after all. Theres a U curve. And lets face it, the majority of groups of people found to be healthy, disease low, and long lived, do not attend gyms or spend time looking at themselves in the mirror or counting their lean muscle mass. They just live active lives.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:13 AM

Kind of an unnecessary hit on Jimmy Moore....the fella has pathological insulin issues which are much different from the physiological insulin resistance that is a normal response on a VLC diet. The difference being that they physiological sort is normal/necessary and is easily reversible by reintroducing carbohydrate to the diet.

Ef26f888ed248de197c37a4cb04ef4a7

(584)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:42 AM

I was always kind of curious how someone goes from eating copious amounts of little debbies cakes and sugary soda on a daily basis, to now believing a baked tuber is going to bowl him over.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:11 AM

Unless of course your weightlifting or sprinting heavily. In which case carbs will help. But its highly arguable that overtraining is bad for you anyway. The longest lived peoples of the world, do not attend gyms and spend time looking at themselves in the mirror.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 04:07 AM

I mean if humans can survive and be healthy eating primarily just meat (which they clearly have and do), and also mostly carbs with some meat (which they also do), then my guess is that carb % intake, outside of your anerobic energy needs is somewhat irrelevant. I suspect that its more issues like insufficient electrolytes, insuffecient copper balance etc that makes people fail at low carb, health wise. The true HGers ate nose to tail, including drink the blood and eating the liver. Youve got to be careful what nutrients you get in, in low carb IMO.

9
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:08 PM

Yeah, basically nobody does what the OP suggests we do. Nuts, fruit, tators, and dairy ALL have always fallen into the moderation OR YMMV category ever since I can remember. I see nothing wrong with that, nor a need to change it.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:15 PM

It is actually true that if you look at the paleo/primal food pyramid, nuts are not on the bottom- meat is. But I think what the OP is getting at is that people look for every way to add calories to their diet besides starch, which causes people to add unnatural amounts of fats to their diet in the form of butter/ghee, nuts/nut-butters, coconut oil/coconut butter, etc. When in reality, it should be eat meat and fish and vegetables, and add in starch before adding in oils/extra fats.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I'm out of up votes but will get you later.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 02:30 AM

"I assume they do this because they are feeling deprived of carbohydrates, and nuts contain some carbs, but you have to eat A LOT of them to get any appreciable amount"....thats your own confirmation bias speaking. I personally must have missed all the "I eat whole tubs of almond butter, but can't lose weight" threads (might be a couple). Sorry, but it is just not realistic. Most people understand there are limits. If they don't then they usually get pelted with that information when they open such a thread.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 02:25 AM

You gotta get your energy from somewhere. I like fat. I only do HIT 1-2x/week with a lot of regular daily movement. You like to get your energy from carbs? Have at it. But there are plenty of people that can attest to overindulging on mashed potatoes too.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:46 AM

The same can be said for coconut butter/mana as well.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Actually, re-reading this, A LOT of people do what the OP suggests. I read on here all the time about people bingeing on nuts- eating up to a lb at a time and an entire tub of almond butter. I assume they do this because they are feeling deprived of carbohydrates, and nuts contain some carbs, but you have to eat A LOT of them to get any appreciable amount. If they'd just eat a roasted sweet potato instead, they'd save themselves hundreds of calories.

5
F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:52 PM

What kind(s) of "malaise" are you referring to? Weight? Athletic performance? Health issues? Satiety/cravings? Blood results?

Also, I think this is kind of a 'straw man' argument in that I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this site recommending nuts ad libitum.

However, I generally do follow your formula (although frankly I don't eat large quantities of either, as tubers can be gassy for me too). Still hasn't solved my chronic IBS, so I may be in that 10% who don't benefit from your theory.

34cf7065a6c94062c711eb16c0f6adc3

on August 14, 2012
at 05:08 AM

You definitely can replace the carbs from rice, with carbs from veggies, but only if you can handle them.

34cf7065a6c94062c711eb16c0f6adc3

on August 14, 2012
at 05:06 AM

IBS means you cannot digest fiber. This means meat + rice + ghee, and vegetables you can digest. Vegetables would more likely be white potatoes, gourd family, as they are low in insoluble fibers. It definitely does not mean eating meat and greens. Do not think of diets in absolute terms. Think about your problem and design a diet that will work for you. Why Rice: You need some carbs. Why ghee: You need the short chain fatty acids (SCFA) for gut healing. Meat does not have much SCFA. Vegetables for getting plant nutrients.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Being a humans means you can't digest fiber, not IBS.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 13, 2012
at 09:23 PM

I'm not much of a philosopher, but I'm pretty sure the OP's argument is the exact definition of a straw man.... so +1.

4
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:42 PM

Interesting question. I want to briefly address weight loss, since that's a pretty common reason why people drop carbs like they're hot. While many believe Stephan Guyenet slew the carb-insulin-obesity beast long ago, people can still gain weight when they increase the carbohydrates in their diet. But context is everything.

A few studies have examined the effect of nuts like almonds on appetite and thus weight gain/loss. Compared to carb rich foods, nuts have typically been shown to either not increase weight gain (1) or to increase weight loss (2,3). But these studies were nuts vs. grains. I think at paleohacks of all places people would agree: tubers and grains are not the same.

One cool study which gained some popularity after Stephan Guyenet blogged about it measured the satiating effects of a number of different foods (4). It found boiled potatoes to be the most satiating and I think this lines up with a lot of people's experiences. A baked potato fills me up pretty well, while a big handful of almonds doesn't, despite both being about the same amount calories.

Still, here in paleoland we love our fat. And many people who eat tubers don't eat them plain; they add some oil from their arsenal of fancy fats. Maybe they salt em' too. Now you have a tasty carb+fat combo that's much more appetizing.

My point is, recommending ad libitum tubers in place of nuts while giving people the free pass to drown em in fat? I'll make the bet right now, some people would gain weight.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on August 14, 2012
at 11:16 AM

Not everyone on Paleo is a fatty.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:56 PM

And to those people I say get your tater on.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:55 PM

And to those people I say: get your tater on.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:50 PM

but yeah, for non-weight related issues though I think the effect of such a revision would be positive.

3
E6c14efded576a0bea38a2fe2beced6a

on August 13, 2012
at 09:03 PM

I think what would help the vast majority of people who have issues with being paleo is for them to accept that this is a lifestyle and not a macro nutrient profile (i.e. a rigid diet).

This whole one size fits all myth is more prevalent on this site then I have seen in many other places and causes many of the problems. Your description of eating all you want of nuts and fruit is only the opinion of specific gurus who push that view of being paleo. The very few I listen to say fruit and nuts in moderation. Depending on what site you go to, and who you listen to, you will get different "Opinions" on what paleo is.

2
07c86972a3bea0b0dc17752e9d2f5642

on August 14, 2012
at 05:55 PM

Good points all around.

High fat paleo made me flabby, tired and I did crave nuts like a nut crazed person!

I don't believe the insulin hypothesis of weight gain at all.

I was obese most of my life - age 9 to 24, eating LOTS of SAD carbs. Some might have said my metabolism was "deranged" by carb damage and a lifetime of LC was in order! I lost about 60lbs over two years and kept it off for 3 years (5 since weight loss started) eating high carb whole foods with nutritious animal foods (brief LC paleo stint notwithstanding). I'm 5'7" and was 198LBS at age 24, am now 135-141 depending on my where I am in my cycle.

I believe obesity is largely caused by malnutrition. If your food isn't giving you what you need, then you'll continue to be hungry no matter how many calories you eat. There's no way Jimmmy Moore could have downed 16 sodas if this weren't true. I once ate 4 bags of miniature chocolates in a day. Even if I had an iota of desire to do this now, it would be physically impossible. I try to tell this to thin people who complain about obese people having no self control when there's no way they can understand what it feels like to have that kind of insatiable hunger.

I also remember as a kid drinking so much milk that it would run out of my mouth, because there was no physical room for it in my stomach (I had undiagnosed celiac disease for over 20 years, so I was very malnourished due to intestinal damage as well as poor food quality).

Today, I love eating lots of fruits, potatoes and big scoops of plain white rice - really starchy and sticky and glue-like. I pair those foods with nutritious stewed meats with bone broths and marrow, eggs and fish. With my digestion improving I've been eating dates (oh, no! sugar bombs!) again every day, and drinking goat's milk kefir. This diet keeps me full, lean, healthy and happy.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 14, 2012
at 06:18 PM

I'm pretty sure cannabalism is paleo. So is eating a lot of insects. Well, I was never REALLY paleo anyways...

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 14, 2012
at 06:09 PM

This: "This diet keeps me full, lean, healthy and happy." x 1,000,000. Everyone should aim for that, no matter what macronutrient ratios or food choices that includes. (Well, unless those food choices are human. I'm kind of categorically against modern cannibalism.)

A7d60508bc045667a2c970b3e221c138

on August 15, 2012
at 11:43 PM

I agree that there is a massive link between obesity and malnutrition and true cravings are the body's attempt to obtain what is is just not getting. True nourishment has to be there before a person has a shot in hell at healthy, lifelong weight loss/maintenance, IMVHO. Unfortunately, there are countless roadblocks to nutrition that often need to be sorted out, such as malabsorption, etc. It requires a lot of research and self experimentation, not to mention time and money. "Going on a diet" just doesn't cut it! Eventually, health needs to be the focus, but vanity usually kicks it off...

2
Ef26f888ed248de197c37a4cb04ef4a7

on August 14, 2012
at 09:38 AM

Ad libitum tubers instead of nuts is a great idea. Baked potatoes have an extremely high satiety level so it's kind of hard to over consume them in one sitting. Besides, there's even a lot of theories that tubers played a significant role in our evolution, perhaps even more so than meat.

2
Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:21 PM

The concept of ad libitum intake of anything is entirely foreign to me, having lost over 80 lbs and consciously maintained at least some level of externally-imposed control for over 2 years.

With that said, nuts seem way easier to overeat in the acute than tubers. I wonder how they would compare with regards to long-term satiety, though...

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:46 AM

Actually, now that I think about it, nuts in their natural state - encased in a hard shell - wouldn't be very accessible. I figure satiety would kick in before you could plow through enough of them to do harm.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 14, 2012
at 06:16 PM

Especially pistachios.

1
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 02:57 AM

Nuts are nutrient dense. Tubers are not.

Re nuts: Some are lower in omega-6 than others. Its worth remembering that animal meat has omega-6, and so do most plants. If you avoid the higher omega-6 ones, favour walnuts, almonds and macadamias, and soak, sproat or ferment some, I dont see the problem.

Almond milk is very low o-6, and high in calcium, which can be low on dairy free diets. Theres an issue with high meat diets, in screwing the copper to zinc ratio up, if you dont eat organ meats. Things like nuts (high in copper) help mitigate this.

Ratio for women is supposed to be 5:1, men 10:1. If you want to get copper from whole foods, without high levels of zinc or iron, your options are pretty limited - liver, nuts, seeds, or cacao.

So I disagree entirely. I dont think anything should be eaten in excess, but I think its a very bad idea discouraging people away from one of the rare high copper foods, when they are eating a high zinc diet most likely without any beef or venison liver involved.

If people find they have weight issues, or are eating too many of the higher o-6 nuts, sure they might want to cut back, and exercise some willpower.

I am personally not sure I see any real benefit in starchy tubers if one isnt very active and particularly doing regular anerobic exercise like weightlifting and sprinting.

I certainly cant see any merit in eating as much of them as people eat rice or pasta. I used to eat under calories, very little sugar, in a mostly carb diet. I was overweight. My metabolism was screwed.

Now I eat over calories often, in a low carb diet, and I am still losing weight (I found my xyiphoid process the other day). Admitedly my thyroid has been slightly overactive due to excess iodine and perhaps not enough copper food. But I think this suggests that more inactive people should moderate carb/starch intake. Even active people seem to do well with only moderate carbs.

How optimal your diet is, is something people should figure out on there own, by reveiwing various peoples cases.

I have reservations about the wholesale banning in paleo of large numbers of food groups. Once youve cut out eggs, nuts, nightshades, fruits, carbs, dairy, oxalate plants, legumes etc etc etc and you havent got the assistance of a skilled nutritionist or are being very careful, chances are good your deficient in something, or your risking an imbalance. Its a bit OTT sometimes.

These HG diets are high refined to obtain proper nutrients from the local foods. Doing such a diet, totally ad hoc, in the modern era can be problematic.

So: I say start with just cutting out wheat/grains, vege oils, probably legumes, definately refined sugar, and processed foods (ie roughly paleo 2.0).

Leave everything else up to individuals own interpretations of various informations (Carbs, eggs, dairy, nightshades, oxalate plants , ra ra radi rah).

Add to that if your losing weight, you probably want to keep carbs under at leats 150 grams, if not under 100 grams.

And if your problem solving autoimmune or gut or other health issues, you may trial eliminating ONE group at a time of the above mega-list, while being careful to replace missing nutrients.

Theres plenty of variants and information out there. I think the best thing we can do as a community is disagree vehemently about every one of those other details, so that people do look into things themselves, and shock horror, think for themselves and drop the group think mentality that pervades our modern society.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 31, 2012
at 08:36 AM

"Nuts are nutrient dense. Tubers are not". Well, you know, that's just like...your opinion, man.

0
1e36119906da54831601a7c23674f581

(698)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:40 AM

I hate nuts.. TUBERS FOR THE WIN! They're also absolutely full of phytonutrients.. take that vegetables!

0
C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on August 14, 2012
at 03:27 AM

Too many nuts isn't that great for gut issues. And can throw off Omega 6 levels in the body quickly. I have trouble just eating a small amount of them myself. So I try not to get almond butter that often.

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